The targets and interests of Imperial Japan and the U.S. tailored them into considerable investment in navy and naval aviation.
And by the way Japan surrendered NOT because of the nuke bombs.
ALAMO, 1ffmm and lancelot like this post
ALAMO wrote:Are you really sure what you are discussing?
That is my fault, I should have been more precise.
The context clearly shows that I was talking about Japanese land forces, but I could have put it more clear.
Japanese army - not AF or Navy - was a third-rate one if compared to the European theatre of operations.
It sucked at functionally any level, from the soldier's individual gear, to the tactics.
They have lacked modern equipment, tanks, artillery, means of transport, machine guns, artillery assets & communication
Individual soldier gear was inferior by any standard if compared to functionally any European army.
Due to lack of resources, there was functionally no technological progress, so in 1945 land forces of Japan were hardly distinguished from the army that fought China a decade earlier.
Till the end of the war, Japanese soldier was armed with Type 38 rifle, the very same that proved to be already outdated during the war with China.
Type 99 was not something that would change the general picture.
The whole production of submachine guns was around 10 000 pcs. For a whole war.
The best machine gun they have - Type 99 - represented a standard of European 30s, while the best heavy machine gun - Type 92 - used to be called "woodpecker". Because that was it's real rate of fire. Feed with ammo bars.
The main reason for it was the Navy and AF, which sucked most of the resources&production potential.
There is not much more to discuss here.
GarryB likes this post
kvs wrote:The defeat of the 1 million man strong Kwantung army by Soviet forces did more to stop Japan than all of the US carrier war.
The US, being the opportunist turds that they are, dropped nukes on Japan to claim "victory" and to scare the USSR.
Japan already changed its policy after its defeat at Khalkin Gol in 1939. Revisionist yanqui history systematically omits
all of Japan's military losses on the mainland. It inserts carrier battles and nuclear bombings as the full essence of the
Pacific war. The US revisionist propaganda after WWII claims that it won the war against Hitler as well.
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ALAMO wrote:The answer to your question is very easy.
All the armies they have faced and you are calling, represented a 30s standard, and that was the very last moment when the Japanese army could match.
Think for a moment about the impetus of technological progress in the whole 30-40s.
The thing that used to be perfectly fine in 1935, was totally outdated in 1940.
A gear that used to be just perfectly modern in the Spanish civil war, was already an archaism in 1939 ...
Poland used to have one of the most modern air fleet in Europe in the early 30s .
It lasted modern till the mid of 30s...
Took 5 years to make a great gear that used to be winning world salons, with waste export potentials, and actually widely exported - totally obsolete.
The British army in the 30s? With its overall strength and potential?
The Dutch colonial army? It can be considered as a stand-up story only. Dutch resistance lasted for a whole 4 days under the Fall Gelb.
The Chinese? Geared with German stuff they procured from different sources after WWI?
Who teached the Japanese the suicidal attacks due to lack of any other hope?
All the Axis allies used to operate the German gear. Bulgaria itself equipped its army with about double the number of submachine guns if compare to Japan, imaging that.
A tiny Bulgaria, with its tiny army - double the number
They have operated a mix of machine guns delivered from Czechoslovakia, Germany, and half of Europe, still, the worst of them rooting WW1, still equaled or surpassed the best piece Japanese soldier has.
A Japanese machine gunner could only dream of Madsen ... an obsolete gear of his Bulgarian colleague. Shooting his shitty Type 99.
Mentioning the tanks is worthless, as the Bulgars operated PzIVs, StgIIIs and Hetzers ...
There was no worse Axis army than the Bulgarian one ...
You can't defend this line my buddy.
We are not talking WHY, but the fact it was just like that.
George1 likes this post
While everybody else was busy with affairs in Europe. And then they lost the equivalent of Western Europe's land area in barely 2 weeks of fighting when the pre-eminent land power found the time to deal with them.flamming_python wrote:
If we are talking about what the fact is, the fact is that the Japanese land-conquests by 1942 were 1/3rd larger than Germany's were. Although the Navy and Air Force were crucial to their success, the battles for these territories were won on the ground as well.
Most of their conquests were from possessions guarded by colonial garrison forces and their collaborators. Tripwires for the most part and hardly the creme of European fighting potential. They were expected to get their shit pushed in.flamming_python wrote:
The Japs didn't really have any allies in the continent other than purely local collaborators that fulfilled nothing more complicated than garrison duties - the Manchuko puppet state, the Thais and the Indonesian nationalists.
Except they didn't. The IJA was so trash even with their full focus on China for four long years they were stale mated and were kept to the coasts and the cities. They failed to knock-out a China that has been severely weakened by civil infighting for so long that the government has been left powerless and literal feudal warlords run the whole place so no concerted organized push to counter them was possible at the onset. This even with all the preponderance in arms and materiel available to them in their campaigns - the Chinese literally had no armor, artillery or airpower, beyond that which is donated by their allies and they even lacked for small arms that entire regiments had to be armed with knives and sharp sticks. Imagine if the Wehrmacht were to fight a Soviet Union fresh from its civil war and only armed with lend-lease ?flamming_python wrote:
And the discombobulation about Pz IVs boils down to basically just that. The Japanese invested in exactly the right places in terms of their military structure and technology. They didn't make their land-army any more advanced than it needed to be to defeat its adversaries, which it did, and it wasn't the land-battles that lost them the war. Their equipment was suited just fine to the terrain and the operations required of them. They weren't on a mission to invade the Soviet Union.
The Chinese were industrial minnows; they had no way of arming and supplying an army to match the modernized Japanese one. On the other side of the Eurasian continent the Wehrmacht were able to pave their way to Russian heartland which isn't exactly known for its roads either. And counterinsurgencies during this time are easy: just ruthlessly depopulate entire population centers and sack the food production areas. No civvies, no one to support the insurgency and it all withers and dies.lancelot wrote:The Japanese had a huge disparity in numbers with the Chinese. Plus the Chinese interior was poorly equipped with roads.
It was a counter insurgency where the Chinese had supply routes via Burma and elsewhere. We know how well counter insurgency wars like these usually end up against the attacker.
kvs likes this post
ALAMO wrote:The Japs could not afford any serious gear for land forces and explaining that with the "unnecessary" marker is a way to deny the facts.
Every single piece of resource was placed to the other branches.
They lacked even cotton for soldiers' underwear, as it was heavily used for gunpowder bags for the navy.
That is kinda opposite to the Germans, who relocated the resources from the navy due to the need of Wehrmacht as early as the war has begun.
They have stopped all the Kriegsmarine production other than submarines, struggling with some pre-war decisions like Graf von Zeppelin carrier peered in Stettin, unoperational till the end of a war.
So yes, again, Japan was a 3rd rate land force considering from the European perspective, whose tactics, training, and equipment have not changed much since the war with China.
The European arms race of the 30s, fuelled with several wars on the continent, shaped the face of modern warfare of the 30-40s.
Ano no, banzai charges and throwing yourself under a tank, with a backpack filled with black powder (!sic!) were not considered the best practice for a while in 1940
GarryB likes this post
Why do they need to acclimatize? British troops in Asia were all local asians, only the commanding officer/s were British. That's because the asians were inferior fighters compared to Europeans. Ergo, they suffered much more casualties than predominantly European armies. That's why British/European officers were needed to create a strategy.flamming_python wrote:The British troops meanwhile just went through some boot-camp in India and didn't even have time to become properly acclimatized to the tropical climate.
jhelb wrote:
Russians defeated the Nazis and asian communities like hindus will suggest they defeated the Nazis in Europe too. But look at the their casualty rate. During WW-II, in case of Russia for every 1 Russian killed Russia killed 2.5 Nazis. However, for indians it was 3 indians killed for every 1 Nazi that they killed in Europe.
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GarryB, ALAMO, lyle6 and lancelot like this post
kvs wrote:The Soviet POW 3.4 million were deliberately exterminated by the Nazis.
It is claimed that 20% of the German POWs died while in the hands of the Soviets.
This claim is a BS estimate recycling the same number as claimed for gulag deaths.
The peak gulag deaths were 20% in 1942 due to severe food supply disruptions.
So the 5.3 million German losses should be compared to 8.7 - 3 +/- = 5.7 million Soviet
losses. But that is not even valid since German allies (Romanians, Hungarians, Italians,
etc.) also need to be included.
Basically the hyped up Soviet soldier deaths are primarily the result of the initial stages
of the war via POWs. Hardly a reflection of German superiority.
I don't laugh, I just state the obvious fact that you decided to deny.
That was a 3rd grade army, and discussing that is really not serious.
Why do they need to acclimatize? British troops in Asia were all local asians, only the commanding officer/s were British. That's because the asians were inferior fighters compared to Europeans. Ergo, they suffered much more casualties than predominantly European armies. That's why British/European officers were needed to create a strategy.
Russians defeated the Nazis and asian communities like hindus will suggest they defeated the Nazis in Europe too. But look at the their casualty rate. During WW-II, in case of Russia for every 1 Russian killed Russia killed 2.5 Nazis. However, for indians it was 3 indians killed for every 1 Nazi that they killed in Europe.
Basically the hyped up Soviet soldier deaths are primarily the result of the initial stages
of the war via POWs. Hardly a reflection of German superiority.
kvs wrote:But that is not even valid since German allies (Romanians, Hungarians, Italians,
etc.) also need to be included.
andalusia wrote:Another factor was that the Germans were animals. There were plenty of women in Soviet Uniform that were executed when captured by the Germans... or raped and then executed.
Funny that the Soviet troops treated German female civilians better than the German Army treated Soviet women soldiers.
(Note I am talking about all German soldiers... this is not something only the nazi SS units did... they all did this...)
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ALAMO wrote:Are you even sane&sauber?
Rape and murder is a tool of war and used to be ones for ages.
There were mass rapes at any side of the conflict, we can only discuss the scale and reasons behind it.
Codification of it is just another example of social changes we faced in the last age or so, because anyone would hardly discuss the matter in XIX century.
The Napoleon army was a rapist army, just the same way as the Brits behaved, including raping&robbing the nominal allies in Spain.
There were rapes in the 1871 war, in the US civil war, and at ANY war.
No one really cared about that, it used to be a normal thing.
Either run, or spread your legs.
Only WWI provided a slight difference to that, because it used to be a very stagnant one, and the civilian population was able to run away. Plus a lots of social changes were already happening in the background.
The Soviet general staff put attention to that matter, so you can guess if they did that because the issue was non-existent.
Denying the rapes there is just the same stupid, as denying organized brothels existing for the Japanese army, and the Germans.
Or discussing the fact, that after the war, whole western occupied zones turned to be a big brothel, where sex was a currency to feed yourself.
And If I were you, I would not even touch the abortion issue, because it will kick you back like a mule.
First of all, I will remind you that abortion itself was a legal mean of birth control in the 3rd Reich.
Arian laws actually encouraged the non-Arian population for it, and combined with the eugenics, any German woman could have a legal abortion due to "fetus deformation".
It was not a big deal at all well into a war, only in 1944 or so, some codification changes were applied to "protect the Arians".
But people give a shit about that.
Now comes the interesting part of the story.
As soon as the war ended, both parts of divided Germany implemented a different means.
The western zone returned to the pre-Nazi code, that restricted abortion in full.
On the other hand, the Eastern Germany didn't care of that at all till the 50s, and then took a Soviet way. Abortion was perfectly legal in the Soviet Union.
The estimates for abortion rates for after-war Germany are considered as high as 2 mln A YEAR.
Seriously.
The "funny" part of that is, that the western propaganda is trying to put all of that to the Soviet occupation zone, and that is pure bullshit.
Those were the German women from West Germany, that were forced to move to the Netherlands to have a legal procedure there, not the Eastern ones.
The number is made by the economic misery, lack of social security, lack of home&safety, and - of course - last but not least, the rapes issue.
But not only that, prostitutes used to get pregnant, too.
I saw a materials suggesting that up to 400 000 German women participated in organized prostitution, so you can wonder the results.
miketheterrible wrote:Of course rape happened. Happened on every side to everyone. War gave impetuous to some of the worst people to commit some of the worst crimes. Still does. But claims can be easily overblown.