Talking bollocks thread #3

[quote="Backman"]

limb wrote:

lancelot wrote:

TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by or AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.
republics after promising Gorbachev they wouldn't expand East.

Not to defend the chinese, but its downright moronic on american levels to claim that the j-20 is a copy of the MiG 1.44. In what way? having canards? Their fuselages
look nothing alike. By that logic F-15 is a complete monkey see monkey do level copy of the MiG-25. 2 rudders, 2 intakes, 2 engines. hurrrrr. What about EF and rafale? What about Su-57 and YF-23?

And yes. China has good 5g. But that is consumer electronics. Consumer goods is China's strength. Mass produced consumer goods.

Military is a whole different ball game. It's not mass produced. The economics of military equipment is just different. Just because China has good consumer electronics doesn't mean it's good at military.

China is not only the world's best seller of commercial drones ahem DJI, but also makes the world's best combat drones. To date, Russia don't have a single armed drone whereas China been making the best armed drones in the world since years ago.



But it's not only drones. China makes the world's best electric trains and electric buses which Russia don't have.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

Backman wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42
My main issue with the J-20 is the politics of it. China claims it's in mass production and in service and the Americans take them at their word. When there's no real evidence of either. And while China buys su 35's and sends them to the South China sea.

Su-35 clearly a step below J-20. The lack of internal weapons bays and AESA and DSI are 3 biggies. On top of that, J-20 HUD makes Su-35 HUD looks like kindergarden. As for why China bought Su-35, could be a sign of friendship. Let's be honest. With CAATSA coming into play in 2017, no country other than China and Russia will ever buy Su-35. Egypt placed the order before CAATSA so other than Egypt, China, Russia, there won't be another country that will ever operate Su-35. Indonesia already dropped the Su-35 deal post CAATSA. So rather than dissing China buying Su-35, Russians should be grateful. After all, the pathetically weak Russian navy is no match for Japan staking its claim against the Kurils. Considering Russia lacks a single modern destroyer and has no aircraft carrier in operation, it is the powerful Chinese navy armed with dozens of modern destroyers that prevent Japan's ruling right wing liberal democratic party from invading the Kurils.

Also, the only thing that prevents the Japanese from invading the Kurils a rerun of Hiroshima. Not some Chinese benevolence.

If Russia is counting on nukes, don't even bother. Russia ain't gonna use nukes if Japan invades Kurils.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

Backman wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42
My main issue with the J-20 is the politics of it. China claims it's in mass production and in service and the Americans take them at their word. When there's no real evidence of either. And while China buys su 35's and sends them to the South China sea.

Su-35 clearly a step below J-20. The lack of internal weapons bays and AESA and DSI are 3 biggies. On top of that, J-20 HUD makes Su-35 HUD looks like kindergarden. As for why China bought Su-35, could be a sign of friendship. Let's be honest. With CAATSA coming into play in 2017, no country other than China and Russia will ever buy Su-35. Egypt placed the order before CAATSA so other than Egypt, China, Russia, there won't be another country that will ever operate Su-35. Indonesia already dropped the Su-35 deal post CAATSA. So rather than dissing China buying Su-35, Russians should be grateful. After all, the pathetically weak Russian navy is no match for Japan staking its claim against the Kurils. Considering Russia lacks a single modern destroyer and has no aircraft carrier in operation, it is the powerful Chinese navy armed with dozens of modern destroyers that prevent Japan's ruling right wing liberal democratic party from invading the Kurils.

Also, the only thing that prevents the Japanese from invading the Kurils a rerun of Hiroshima. Not some Chinese benevolence.

If Russia is counting on nukes, don't even bother. Russia ain't gonna use nukes if Japan invades Kurils.

This explain why Japan, which doesn't have more than 2 MEU to deploy is planning to invade the Kurils anyday now. FFS this is probably the lowest I've seen RDF go when it comes to content, awareness and topographic litteracy.

Don't bother replying. I've had enough laughs for today.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

Backman wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42
My main issue with the J-20 is the politics of it. China claims it's in mass production and in service and the Americans take them at their word. When there's no real evidence of either. And while China buys su 35's and sends them to the South China sea.

Su-35 clearly a step below J-20. The lack of internal weapons bays and AESA and DSI are 3 biggies. On top of that, J-20 HUD makes Su-35 HUD looks like kindergarden. As for why China bought Su-35, could be a sign of friendship. Let's be honest. With CAATSA coming into play in 2017, no country other than China and Russia will ever buy Su-35. Egypt placed the order before CAATSA so other than Egypt, China, Russia, there won't be another country that will ever operate Su-35. Indonesia already dropped the Su-35 deal post CAATSA. So rather than dissing China buying Su-35, Russians should be grateful. After all, the pathetically weak Russian navy is no match for Japan staking its claim against the Kurils. Considering Russia lacks a single modern destroyer and has no aircraft carrier in operation, it is the powerful Chinese navy armed with dozens of modern destroyers that prevent Japan's ruling right wing liberal democratic party from invading the Kurils.

Also, the only thing that prevents the Japanese from invading the Kurils a rerun of Hiroshima. Not some Chinese benevolence.

If Russia is counting on nukes, don't even bother. Russia ain't gonna use nukes if Japan invades Kurils.

This explain why Japan, which doesn't have more than 2 MEU to deploy is planning to invade the Kurils anyday now. FFS this is probably the lowest I've seen RDF go when it comes to content, awareness and topographic litteracy.

Don't bother replying. I've had enough laughs for today.

Chinese have an old saying. A tiger cannot fight a pack of wolves. Russia may be big, but no match for a pack of enemies led of the US.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

Backman wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42
My main issue with the J-20 is the politics of it. China claims it's in mass production and in service and the Americans take them at their word. When there's no real evidence of either. And while China buys su 35's and sends them to the South China sea.

Su-35 clearly a step below J-20. The lack of internal weapons bays and AESA and DSI are 3 biggies. On top of that, J-20 HUD makes Su-35 HUD looks like kindergarden. As for why China bought Su-35, could be a sign of friendship. Let's be honest. With CAATSA coming into play in 2017, no country other than China and Russia will ever buy Su-35. Egypt placed the order before CAATSA so other than Egypt, China, Russia, there won't be another country that will ever operate Su-35. Indonesia already dropped the Su-35 deal post CAATSA. So rather than dissing China buying Su-35, Russians should be grateful. After all, the pathetically weak Russian navy is no match for Japan staking its claim against the Kurils. Considering Russia lacks a single modern destroyer and has no aircraft carrier in operation, it is the powerful Chinese navy armed with dozens of modern destroyers that prevent Japan's ruling right wing liberal democratic party from invading the Kurils.

no doubt China is a great power and is beneath nobody but a peer to the other major players in the world. it sucks because the west was able to take full advantage of the last two hundred years of expansion, but China is doing a damn good job and are ending their catch up phase. they are also throwing aside any kind of yoke which the west might try to throw on them.  

I really dont like Xi or communism, tho. also goin back to defense equipment i just prefer the looks of the su-57 and the unique philosophy behind it. i think it is very different compared to the ideas of China and the western powers. as far as Russians being critical of China I have seen China usually instigate it much more, and have been rather brazen in doing so. Vladivostok is an example.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

Backman wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42
My main issue with the J-20 is the politics of it. China claims it's in mass production and in service and the Americans take them at their word. When there's no real evidence of either. And while China buys su 35's and sends them to the South China sea.

Su-35 clearly a step below J-20. The lack of internal weapons bays and AESA and DSI are 3 biggies. On top of that, J-20 HUD makes Su-35 HUD looks like kindergarden. As for why China bought Su-35, could be a sign of friendship. Let's be honest. With CAATSA coming into play in 2017, no country other than China and Russia will ever buy Su-35. Egypt placed the order before CAATSA so other than Egypt, China, Russia, there won't be another country that will ever operate Su-35. Indonesia already dropped the Su-35 deal post CAATSA. So rather than dissing China buying Su-35, Russians should be grateful. After all, the pathetically weak Russian navy is no match for Japan staking its claim against the Kurils. Considering Russia lacks a single modern destroyer and has no aircraft carrier in operation, it is the powerful Chinese navy armed with dozens of modern destroyers that prevent Japan's ruling right wing liberal democratic party from invading the Kurils.

Also, the only thing that prevents the Japanese from invading the Kurils a rerun of Hiroshima. Not some Chinese benevolence.

If Russia is counting on nukes, don't even bother. Russia ain't gonna use nukes if Japan invades Kurils.

This explain why Japan, which doesn't have more than 2 MEU to deploy is planning to invade the Kurils anyday now. FFS this is probably the lowest I've seen RDF go when it comes to content, awareness and topographic litteracy.

Don't bother replying. I've had enough laughs for today.

Chinese have an old saying. A tiger cannot fight a pack of wolves. Russia may be big, but no match for a pack of enemies led of the US.

A pack of enemies...we went from Japan to a pack of enemies led by the US. I am dying to hear this new alliance that will suddenly take in Russia in the Pacific. Strictly put. Because the nuclear deterrent no one wants a piece of the Russian far East. Not even China.

For example the first autonomous docking in moon orbit was completed by China's Chang'e 5 yesterday.

Automatic docking is just automatic docking... claiming it is new or special because it happens in moon orbit instead of earth orbit is totally lame... it is like having the world record for the number of icecreams thrown at a dog while riding a horse... I am sure if you throw more than three you could have that world record.... but not likely something you would boast about... because anyone could then throw four and take your record...

If Russia does not engage in space then Russia will lose out in the new space race.

Space races are pointless wastes of energy and money. The focus should be on doing useful work, not trying to beat this or that other country that is trying to show off.

Same goes for Su-57. Russia can build 100 Su-57 prototypes if it wants, but without a single production Su-57 it's all for naught. On the other hand, China already built dozens of production J-20 which flew later than Su-57 did.

How many MiG-21s were made... did you have to look it up? Surely if production numbers were so critical you would know without looking it up...

Su-57 is a system that is ready for serial production. J-20 is a toy... if it is so wonderful why do they still buy Su-35s?

I don't blame them... if I had the choice I would buy Su-35s too.

Su-35 clearly a step below J-20.

Yet China buys both according to you...

The lack of internal weapons bays and AESA and DSI are 3 biggies.

Fourteen weapon hardpoints is more valuable than internal weapon bays, and there is nothing wrong with the radar on the Su-35.

The fact that you think DSI is a biggy is amusing... how much do you think 4th gen fighters will be flying around at supersonic speeds?

On top of that, J-20 HUD makes Su-35 HUD looks like kindergarden.

That does not make sense.

The wings on the J-20 make the wings on the Su-35 look like a week ago last Tuesday...    

After all, the pathetically weak Russian navy is no match for Japan staking its claim against the Kurils.

Japan is in no condition to take any territory from Russia... now or ever.

Considering Russia lacks a single modern destroyer and has no aircraft carrier in operation, it is the powerful Chinese navy armed with dozens of modern destroyers that prevent Japan's ruling right wing liberal democratic party from invading the Kurils.

Why would China care about the Kuriles... one way or the other?

When was the last time the powerful Chinese navy made any difference at all to anything?

China is not only the world's best seller of commercial drones ahem DJI, but also makes the world's best combat drones. To date, Russia don't have a single armed drone whereas China been making the best armed drones in the world since years ago.

I take personally a regular visitor to this forum is so ill-informed...    

If Russia is counting on nukes, don't even bother. Russia ain't gonna use nukes if Japan invades Kurils.

The Russian constitution allows for the use of nuclear weapons in the case of a strategically important situation... US military bases on the Kuriles would qualify...

Chinese have an old saying. A tiger cannot fight a pack of wolves. Russia may be big, but no match for a pack of enemies led of the US.

Which is very true for any third world country, but the colonial powers of Europe have shown you can control an entire population with a few machine guns and a few dirty tricks... look at Chinas history with Britain... look at Indias history with Britain.

Tigers and Wolves are endangered species now... finding them is harder than fighting them.

Just a reminder... when replying to a post you don't need to repost everything in that conversation... if you are replying just after the person then you don't need to quote anything... just reply but make it clear in your reply what you are referring to.

Cascading answers are against the rules... ignoring the instructions of a mod is against the rules too...

If you don't understand send me a PM for a further explanation...

Speaking of China and bollocks. Why are some Chinese worse or just as bad as the Americans ? China owns nearly 500 Flankers. Yet they have the gall to bash Russian aircraft like cowards.

The most dedicted su 57 hater on Twitter is a Chinese guy. He has RupprectDino on alerts so that anytime something gets posted about the su 57, he jumps in and bashes it with disinfo nonsense. His whole freaking Twitter existence is dedicated to bashing the su 57 and Russia.

Here's his pinned tweet



What is wrong with these people ? What is it about the su 57 that gets this reaction ? I guess Russia is the benchmark that everyone compares themselves to. And in order to pump their own tires, they have to bash Russia.



^The usual. Has the red pen out. Showing Sukhoi engineers that he knows better than them.


^ yep. I'm sure there are pics out there of highly sensitive military aircraft engine parts from both sides for you to compare . Russia really should just halt engines sales to china which would ground it's air force. Funny how so much of China's sovereignty is riding on Russian engines. Without an air force , China would have already accepted concessions on Hong Kong. And also Taiwan. Maybe the Americans are right. At least for some Chinese , there is an American pretender underneath just begging to break out.

This love for America. Strange. It's not fair to accuse them all of it of course. There is a Putin and Russia fan base in China. I think it's mainly English fluent China that has a case of su 57 derangment syndrome and Anglophilia.

Backman wrote:Speaking of China and bollocks. Why are some Chinese worse or just as bad as the Americans ? China owns nearly 500 Flankers. Yet they have the gall to bash Russian aircraft like cowards.

The most dedicted su 57 hater on Twitter is a Chinese guy. He has RupprectDino on alerts so that anytime something gets posted about the su 57, he jumps in and bashes it with disinfo nonsense. His whole freaking Twitter existence is dedicated to bashing the su 57 and Russia.

Zivo was responding to that jackass on Twitter and had him drawn-and-quartered on this subject.  If we saw him and or Tai double chen in real life they'd probably explain their Down syndrome eyes as a 'East Asian' facial feature lol!

China is 1.3B people.  You will find retards and good people.

China seems to be on a love relationship with Russia. At same time, you will find people who feel their nations image is at risk knowing they rely heavily on Russian tech and engines for their military.

The J-20 was proven to be subpar compared to Russian Su-57 let alone Su-35 and India proved older subpar radar was able to track the j-20. In that regard, they lash out. Just check Ultrons Crazy downsyndrom Chinese cousin here - compared absolutely nothing and says how advance J-20 is.

Yet no one wants that piece of shit.

But their egos get the better of them.  It's like the blacks who say "Mah dick" in any conversation with them.

These Chinese dirtbags are like the ones from Russia who relish the taste of western excrement. They are some sort of mental
pathology specimens where their whole identity is invested in some "greener pasture" myth over the border and they spend all
their time proving to themselves that the shit the eat is delicious. No sane human would by so rabidly sycophantic and basically
self-hating.

We had that clown in Hong Kong who was teaching students that the British were trying to save China from opium during the
Opium War.

kvs wrote:These Chinese dirtbags are like the ones from Russia who relish the taste of western excrement.   They are some sort of mental
pathology specimens where their whole identity is invested in some "greener pasture" myth over the border and they spend all
their time proving to themselves that the shit the eat is delicious.   No sane human would by so rabidly sycophantic and basically
self-hating.  

We had that clown in Hong Kong who was teaching students that the British were trying to save China from opium during the
Opium War.  

Well, in this case, these are Chinese people who have a faltered Ego much like Tai Chai Ming Ping or whatever the users name is on here. Where China does everything better than Russia apparently, even though China still has to import from Russia engines and other tech for military, all the while China's tech sells meh and reviews from other nations military for chinese tech was meh. Or how India spotted a J-20 with an Su-30MKI from 180km away which begs the question how far a Su-35 would then spot that jet.

miketheterrible wrote:

kvs wrote:These Chinese dirtbags are like the ones from Russia who relish the taste of western excrement.   They are some sort of mental
pathology specimens where their whole identity is invested in some "greener pasture" myth over the border and they spend all
their time proving to themselves that the shit the eat is delicious.   No sane human would by so rabidly sycophantic and basically
self-hating.  

We had that clown in Hong Kong who was teaching students that the British were trying to save China from opium during the
Opium War.  

Well, in this case, these are Chinese people who have a faltered Ego much like Tai Chai Ming Ping or whatever the users name is on here.  Where China does everything better than Russia apparently, even though China still has to import from Russia engines and other tech for military, all the while China's tech sells meh and reviews from other nations military for chinese tech was meh.  Or how India spotted a J-20 with an Su-30MKI from 180km away which begs the question how far a Su-35 would then spot that jet.

Oops, wrong clowns. But I get the sense from these Russia bashers is that they are west lovers. They do not spend
anywhere near the time to bash the USA that they do Russia. So they may not be the super-patriots that they pretend to
be.

A couple years back , I had no idea what the controversy about the su 35 order was even about. China has lots of money. Russia was offering to sell the su 35. Russia and China have a good neighbors policy and a defacto alliance. Why the hell wouldn't China order some su 35's ?

I had no idea that the China stronkists were taking the order as an insult to their indigenous aircraft industry. They were even denying the order 'till he very end. When pics of the jets landing in China came out , some of them were claiming that the pics were photoshopped.

Just imagine how flustered these fanboys will get if China orders some su 57E's. Again. Why wouldn't they ? It's just money. All the hard work is done. Just imagine how strong and capable the Chinese airforce would look with squads of J-20's and su 57's side by side. While India has no 5th gen jets. Regardless what you think of the J-20, it's rather intimidating to look at.

So I think these fanboys should just relax. And China should order some su 57E's.

The most dedicted su 57 hater on Twitter is a Chinese guy. He has RupprectDino on alerts so that anytime something gets posted about the su 57, he jumps in and bashes it with disinfo nonsense. His whole freaking Twitter existence is dedicated to bashing the su 57 and Russia.

Might be a paid troll... it could be how he earns his living...

Besides why should we care if he does not like the Su-57... you can't really control what you do or do not like...

The comment about high strength glass is hilarious... if the US and Europe are so advanced in canopy technology how does he explain videos of Mi-28N canopy glass being shot from a distance of less than 5 metres with a 14.5mm HMG in tests... you could no longer see through the glass but the inside of the glass was smooth with no cracks... in comparison with the Apache attack helicopters canopy which can be penetrated by standard AK rounds fired from the ground... so more than 5m and a 7.62x39mm round... note in both cases I am talking about side canopy transparencies...

The Soviets made an aircraft completely out of glass during WWII... it was highly effective to start out with but normal stress of flight created cracks which ruined the effect...

What is wrong with these people ? What is it about the su 57 that gets this reaction ? I guess Russia is the benchmark that everyone compares themselves to. And in order to pump their own tires, they have to bash Russia.

The Su-57 is essentially a plane designed to beat the F-22 and F-35 and they are making it for about the price their Su-35s cost to make... of course he is butt hurt...

Amusing regarding his circle games he does not mention that the IRST he circled can be used without giving away the aircrafts location to the enemy... sure the f-22 is supposed to have a low probability intercept mode, but that does not work against wide band ground based radar like NEBO which scans in rather more frequencies than any aircraft fitted radar could manage, so in listening mode it will pick up signals across a wide range of frequencies from one point target which immediately suggest it is a fighter plane...

And the comment about the Al-31 is amusing... they have plenty of experience with that engine that has been in service for 40 years... if the damn thing had problems what fucking idiot would design and build a single engined fighter that used that engine... it was designed from the outset for twin engined aircraft so if one engine did fail it could make it home and have that engine replaced.

Are the Chinese so fucking stupid that they put an unreliable engine in a single engined fighter where an engine failure would result in the loss of the aircraft.

I don't think they are, which suggests his issues with the engine are nonsense...

yep. I'm sure there are pics out there of highly sensitive military aircraft engine parts from both sides for you to compare . Russia really should just halt engines sales to china which would ground it's air force. Funny how so much of China's sovereignty is riding on Russian engines. Without an air force , China would have already accepted concessions on Hong Kong. And also Taiwan. Maybe the Americans are right. At least for some Chinese , there is an American pretender underneath just begging to break out.

Don't confuse China with dicks on the internet. Chinas international behaviour is nothing like the US, and while they are not perfect, and will use power to get better outcomes like anyone else would, they don't seem to be the nazis the west have become.... they are not going to screw you and then demand you say you liked it...

This love for America. Strange. It's not fair to accuse them all of it of course. There is a Putin and Russia fan base in China. I think it's mainly English fluent China that has a case of su 57 derangment syndrome and Anglophilia.

Pretend to be English and ask him when the next shipment of opium are going to get there via the British silk road...

Zivo was responding to that jackass on Twitter and had him drawn-and-quartered on this subject. clown If we saw him and or Tai double chen in real life they'd probably explain their Down syndrome eyes as a 'East Asian' facial feature lol!

My auntie Jan has downs syndrome... I don't appreciate that joke.

China seems to be on a love relationship with Russia. At same time, you will find people who feel their nations image is at risk knowing they rely heavily on Russian tech and engines for their military.

Just look at the US at the moment to see what polarising does to a population... thinking Putin is perfect is just as dangerous as thinking he is the root of all evil, but I must say and am more rest assured when I hear he is the devil than when countries like France and Germany etc start talking about cooperation... because you know it wont be for Russias benefit.

I had no idea that the China stronkists were taking the order as an insult to their indigenous aircraft industry. They were even denying the order 'till he very end. When pics of the jets landing in China came out , some of them were claiming that the pics were photoshopped.

Well that is the point... within any group you will find factions, and of course there are going to be Chinese people who wonder why they shame themselves by importing foreign crap when they can make everything themselves... the problem is that a fighter aircraft... even a fourth generation one contains tens of thousands of different technologies... all of which are sophisticated and complex but contribute to the performance of the aircraft.

New bearing technology... new electric actuators to replace heavy hydraulic ones, all sorts of new materials and designs and that is not all... knowing how something works and what it is made of means nothing if you can't make it yourself.

We found with Frances offer to Russia that despite all its technology and ego its amazing engines require titanium components made in the US... and they were offering if Russia continued to buy French engines for various uses that they would then buy those complex titanium parts from Russia instead... not just for the engines they sell to Russia but all the engines they make...

Quite an attractive offer but the benefits of their own engine family that is scalable to any size is just more attractive than using French engines that might be cut off through indirect US sanctions at any time.

I understand what they mean... there is plenty of turning their noses up at Russian stuff too in the west... Russian thermal imagers are french... well much of the technology they were developed from was French but they also bought thermal imagers from Sweden and South Africa and they are using this technology they bought to further their own technology, and now they are looking at digital night vision which should be an impressive step forward for the military too... such technology is already produced in China because that is where US makers produce their systems... so rip off models based directly on the US originals will likely become available soon enough too.

Just imagine how flustered these fanboys will get if China orders some su 57E's. Again. Why wouldn't they ? It's just money. All the hard work is done. Just imagine how strong and capable the Chinese airforce would look with squads of J-20's and su 57's side by side. While India has no 5th gen jets. Regardless what you think of the J-20, it's rather intimidating to look at.

So I think these fanboys should just relax. And China should order some su 57E's.

Sometimes fanboys grow up, sometimes they don't, and have to learn to live with stomach ulcers...

The growth of China has been fantastic, but it was no surprise... ironically it is the ideal partnership of the west with technology and designs but with a highly educated workforce with rights and unions that make any products they do make unaffordable for the average western consumer.

A communist country can get things done... they are experts at red tape but equally with the right funding and the correct flow of money red tape can be cut very easily. A communist country has good education and a large workforce that will work for minimum wage without knowing what a western worker would demand. More importantly with no unions (get the irony there do you... in the west unions are akin to communism but they don't exist in the communist countries the west makes it shit in)... so you can work people as hard as you like. In the west they talk about productivity, but in China having three shifts of 8 hours means that factory that western company built can run 24/7, so productivity doesn't come in to it... they will be as skilled as anyone in the west after the first week and they will work hard for the money they get paid. A western worker would be a fool to work that hard for minimum wage... you want hard work... well pay for it or STFU.

I have mentioned before China is not the first poor country the west has used as a sweat shop to make cheap shit... they did it in Japan just after the war... but Japan took that investment and went for the luxury market and high skill market... optics and cars and all sorts of things and to start off with their cars were rubbish, but pretty soon they were more reliable and cheaper than european cars, and their motors were fantastic... If you buy a telescopic sight in the west if the optics are not made in Japan or Germany then they were no good.

Backman wrote:A couple years back , I had no idea what the controversy about the su 35 order was even about. China has lots of money. Russia was offering to sell the su 35. Russia and China have a good neighbors policy and a defacto alliance. Why the hell wouldn't China order some su 35's ?

I had no idea that the China stronkists were taking the order as an insult to their indigenous aircraft industry.  They were even denying the order 'till he  very end. When pics of the jets landing in China came out , some of them were claiming that the pics were photoshopped.

Just imagine how flustered these fanboys will get if China orders some su 57E's. Again. Why wouldn't they ?  It's just money. All the hard work is done. Just imagine how strong and capable the Chinese airforce would look with squads of J-20's and su 57's side by side. While India has no 5th gen jets. Regardless what you think of the J-20, it's rather intimidating to look at.

So I think these fanboys should just relax. And China should order some su 57E's.

It's so strange yeah, especially considering the Chinese drove a hard bargain and managed to get away with a decently small amount of planes for the chance to strip them all down for their own purposes.
Buying foreign tech in small amounts is how people have been upgrading their own production for millennia.

China stronkists are hypocritical morons. China and Japan have a tech copy culture. Japan has developed enough not to be so
dependent on it, but it is still there. China is full bore copy and paste. That is why they have had such a hard time copying the
Su-27 engines they got. China's high speed trains are brazen ripoffs as well. When it comes to the USSR and Russia there is
no copy culture. NATzO propaganda claiming that Russia steals its tech is for retards. Like the inane claim that the Tu-95
is a "ripoff" of the Boeing B-29. Aside from the unpainted aluminum skin they have basically nothing in common (discounting
trivial and universal features like wings and flaps). And the recent Bolton turd nugget where he claimed that Russia stole
American hypersonic tech. Sure there, moustache face, your fuckwad country does not even have hypersonic missiles
and warhead gliders. No, demonstrators don't count since no demonstrator is 99% of a deployed system. The USSR and
Russia had demonstrators as well dating back decades.

Even the Tu-4 wasn´t a copy of the B-29. It received stronger engines, stronger guns for defence and so on.

Indeed, the engines on the Tu-4 were on a whole other level even if the fuselage was an actual legal copy of the B-29
at least superficially.

Maximmmm wrote:It's so strange yeah, especially considering the Chinese drove a hard bargain and managed to get away with a decently small amount of planes for the chance to strip them all down for their own purposes.
Buying foreign tech in small amounts is how people have been upgrading their own production for millennia.  

Actually they had to settle for increased order, initially the wanted smaller one for reverse engineering

But with this larger order they were forced to officially introduce and use those Su-35s because of amount money spent and contract clauses signed

I think the Chinese ego should have been hit hard when it is known that more than half their fleet consists of Sukhoi or MiG knockoffs. And that their new domestic jet still takes a lot from MiG 1.42.

Even their vaunted J-10 is a knockoff of an Israeli jet.

Russia and the Soviet Union often had very different requirements from the west so any copying was done in panic or emergency as a temporary thing until something better could be made.

Examples of copying were the Tu-4, the Sidewinder missile, the Buran space shuttle, but the same goes the other way too... essentially the Federov Avtomat from 1916 is an assault rifle... a Bradley and a Warrior are BMPs, smoothbore tank guns...

The point is that while the Soviets had heavy bombers, they didn't have anything with the capacity of the B-29 and copying it was the quickest solution... in the 1930s they had the single engine ANT-25 which had a flight range of about 12,000km that flew several record breaking flights... one of which being a non stop flight to the US which directly resulted in Congress not cancelling what was to become the B-17.

The sidewinder was simple and basic... the AA-1 was a complex mess... a mishmash of wires and bits all over the place that was complex and difficult to make and service... the sidewinder was modular with... from the front a seeker, then guidance then front control surfaces then warhead then rocket motor and stabiliser fins at the rear. The change in design from what they had to the sidewinder which could be made in pieces and assembled together... if one part was faulty remove it and replace it... but it would take time for them to use this new design concept and make new weapons... arguably the R-27 family is the best example of the modular design with different seekers and rocket motors in dozens of combinations... you could write a whole book on them.

Even with the copy they found the IR seeker was not as good as the Soviet one and the rocket motor wasn't as powerful so it uses a soviet seeker and rocket motor, but the autogyros were small and effective and simple so they copied those directly.

With the Tu-4 the 50 cals were replaced with 20mm cannon, the engines were more powerful and less prone to burst into flames, but it was a terrible pain in the ass to copy anyway... remember the Tu-4 is imperial measures and the Soviets worked in metric... even the gauges of skin thickness and metal hardness and types were different. It took 2 years for them to convert the design of the DC-3 to metric so it could be licence produced in the Soviet Union... they sent designers to the US to work with Douglas for the conversion and that was with the help of the men who designed it...

The Buran, well they copied the aerodynamics because they knew NASA had already spent 2 billion dollars (an eye watering amount at the time) to find the best shape that could be made with the production and materials of the time... why piss away money in the hope they might have made a mistake and get something slightly better.

The Buran is fundamentally different from the US Space shuttle... effectively it is a glider that is launched on the back of a big rocket... the US space shuttle being like a C-130 with an enormous external fuel tank and RATO bottles to power it to get airborne vertically... most of the trip those 10 tons of engines on the shuttle are dead weight. The Buran has more payload capacity, more bring back weight and is lighter and also cheaper.

If you are building a space station you can take the 120 ton Buran off and put complete 120 ton sections of space station on the back of the rockets... the shuttle can carry 10 tons-20 tons depending on altitude... Buran can carry up to 30 tons.

The Soviets and Russians are not afraid to copy, but only when they cannot buy or licence produce like the Rolls Royce Nene and Derwent jet engines they bought just after WWII... within a few years they had boosted performance and added ABs and made them much more powerful.

The engine on the An-2 is a licence produced US engine they have been making since before WWII ended...

The Russian Maxim gun is a Maxim gun... licence produced...

The Soviet space shuttle was not a simple copy. There is a photograph which I cannot find online which shows a small model
in the late 1960s in the USSR that looks almost exactly like the Buran. The space shuttle is a transport box which is a hypersonic
glider on descent. So the ceramic heat tiles and delta-wing shape are emergent features and not some yanqui ingenuity. No
other wing choice fits its role. The rectangular cargo part optimizes payload volume, so making it cylindrical serves no useful
purpose.

Aircraft design is not an art class exercise. Form follows function and gratuitous variation is pointless.

Examples of copying were the Tu-4, the Sidewinder missile

There are a couple really good stories about how the Soviets got sidewinders. The first version and the second version of the missile.

FACT: The KGB Shipped a Sidewinder Missile by Mail to Moscow

One day when the US was aiding Taiwan in the fight against China....

One of MiG-17s hit by Sidewinders actually survived the clash – and returned to its base with the missile still embedded in its fuselage. The Chinese carefully dismantled the weapon — which had failed to detonate — and quickly forwarded it to the USSR for further analysis.

Once in the USSR, the captured Sidewinder was shown to the government design team led by Ivan Toropov. In the words of one of the Russian engineers, it represented “a university of missile design” for them. Impressed by the simplicity and effectiveness of the U.S.-made weapon, the Soviets decided to reverse engineer it, and launch their own production in 1960.

Fewer than 10 years later, the R-3S was in service with around 20 air forces around the world. However, air wars in the Middle East and in Southeast Asia proved that the weapon was rapidly becoming obsolescent. Thus, the Soviets were most delighted to receive the next AIM-9 variant – this time by post, and directly to Moscow.

Exploiting thick fog and careless guards, Manfred Ramminger – a KGB-agent in West Germany – entered Neuburg air base during the evening of Oct. 22, 1967. Together with his Polish driver Josef Linowski and German F-104 Starfighter pilot Wolf-Diethard Knoppe, he stole an operational AIM-9 from the local ammunition depot and transported it down the entire runway on a wheelbarrow to his Mercedes sedan, parked outside the base.

If Russia built the F-35....

That post probably belongs in an F-35 thread rather than here...

Once in the USSR, the captured Sidewinder was shown to the government design team led by Ivan Toropov. In the words of one of the Russian engineers, it represented “a university of missile design” for them. Impressed by the simplicity and effectiveness of the U.S.-made weapon, the Soviets decided to reverse engineer it, and launch their own production in 1960.

The point is that they had a huge amount to learn from the sidewinder, not because it was so sophisticated and complex... it was actually the opposite.

It was very simple and modular. If they had not copied it it would have taken a few years for the modular and simplicity design concepts to filter through the missile design bureaus so it would have been after 1965 before they got a useable weapon. Copying the Sidewinder meant they got a usable weapon in 1960 while the companies that made missiles absorbed the lessons and design ideas of the sidewinder.

The other story I had not heard before... funny that by the early 1980s they were practically handing them Stingers...