Talking bollocks thread #3

GarryB wrote:

If Russia built the F-35....

That post probably belongs in an F-35 thread rather than here...

[.

I'd actually like to see some reactions on it. I just posted it here because it might be too controversial.

GarryB wrote:Well that is interesting... forward scouting subs listening for targets and plotting their positions using sonar and transmitting target information to other platforms further away...

Something that the US established 20 years ago.

GarryB wrote:It is all part of their new net centricity plan which means fighter planes and subs can scout targets that other platforms can engage meaning the fighters don't need to fly everywhere with high drag large and heavy anti ship missiles, but can use sophisticated sensors and equipment to find targets suitable for engaging... and subs can do the same... as well as small surface, subsurface and airborne drones presumably...

The "new" net centric warfare is not going to be different from that of the U.S.

While a network may provide better access to information, usually about the activities of one's own side, that information may not be complete and may not necessarily enable an accurate understanding of the situation. They have indicated that sensor-based situational awareness may not reflect an accurate picture of operational reality. Individual air-to-ground weapons will be integratedinto network centric operations. However, if a large volume of weapons are used concurrently in a conflict, this mayadd considerably to the demand for network bandwidth.

LMFS wrote:Exactly, that is the key. The US "warfighter" has no appetite for real war (that is, when blows come their way as hard and as fast as they hit themselves)

Are you sure Russia has that appetite? Especially against a near peer adversary like China or U.S?

LMFS wrote:no-one is claiming Russia needs to have the upper hand to boss US around

Russia is new to network centric warfare (NCW). Not the US. Ergo, over the last 3 decades the U.S has developed state of the art Observe Orient Decide Act (OODA) loop. U.S currently has the best amalgam of information, sensors, and communications that constitutes the  “information  backplane”of network-centric operations. Therefore, we can change the mode,direction,  and  objectives  of our actions, just as fast as we can bring speed and precision to targeting.

More importantly, the real payoff in network-centric operations is foreshortening combat by causing the enemy to yield long before his means to resist have been exhausted, or long before additional friendly forces might be expected to arrive in the crisis area. This efficiency revolves around the ability of network-centric forces to undertake precise effects-based operations, that is, outcome-oriented activity focused on enemy behavior. The objective of these operations is psychological rather than physical.Hence, they are focused on the enemy’s decision-making process and ability to take  action  in  some  coherent  manner—especially  “getting  inside  his  OODA loop” and inducing or exploiting chaos. The knowledge, precision, speed, andagility brought by network-centric operations constitute the price of admission into this realm.

LMFS wrote:It would be more than enough to calm down the sociopaths in the West, if they just had a clue about military issues and were able to read the signs Russia is sending..

A detente of this nature is effective when it comes to nuclear weapons but not in NCW. Regular Russian hacking of computer servers across US and similarly US attempts to hack servers in Russia is a case in point.

LMFS wrote:I am aware of the US paranoid notion that allowing the rest of the world to live and develop is a security risk for them, but that approach has no future, no matter how hard you try.

A paranoia so intense that we allowed half the world to have a massive trade surplus against us. Not to forget the role played by the US government post World War II to convert backward countries like Japan, South Korea, Singapore, China and a whole lot of countries in Europe into developed states.

LMFS wrote:I for sure don't think those principles apply differently both sides of the Atlantic and also I don't see how US doctrine and / or mindset is more advanced and resilient than Russian one, in fact US lacks the crucial experience of suffering terrible homeland attrition and the real prospect of being totally annihilated, both politically and ethnically. The first time shit really hits the fan and CONUS starts bleeding for the war your elite is desperately trying to provoke, we will see what the real resistance of US is to those psychological effects you mention, but I would not be very optimistic. Basically we have seen in Syria a completely different Russian military to the one we saw in Georgia and the best part of their contribution to the defeat of the West and their takfiri there was related to intelligence and battle management issues. The next step is being taken as we speak with the integration of all fighting assets in Russian armed forces in unified informational spaces, bringing them fairly close to the state of the art. Added to the overwhelming geographic advantage that is enough for any conventional attack vs . Russia to be dead before starting. Which is good for everyone as I repeat.

All this after explaining the meaning of "Whataboutism" to me? Anyway, I'll let this slide. The reason why U.S did not suffer "terrible homeland attrition and the real prospect of being totally annihilated, both politically and ethnically" is because compared to our adversary we were always better prepared.

CONUS did not bleed even during the great world wars or in any of the wars that the US fought since the 50s. Several countries tried but failed. Hate to rain on your parade but CONUS won't bleed for decades to come.

LMFS wrote: One thing more: same standard reactions from Seig and RTN: US is ahead in every (good) sense and has every option covered. The progress of mankind is due to US magnanimity. All bad things that US does are necessary reaction to what others do, no interest in whether those countries are an actual threat, which obviously they are not, mainly because with US geography there is simply no physical invasion threat even remotely thinkable. Interesting homogeneous pattern indeed, says a lot about how well thought conditioning in US works. Nevermind, I guess we will not solve anything here and weapons will have to do the talking as it is always the case between falling empires and rising powers.

I never said any of these things. I gave you technical reasons as to why Russian Navy is way behind the US in NCW. Your inability to understand a point is not my problem.

Big_Gazza wrote:The US prints money to endlessly inflate the money supply, and uses that fiat currency to settle their overseas trade accounts (as the USD is the current global trading currency).  As the money departs US shores, it doesn't circulate in their domestic economy and therefore the rampant printing doesn't lead to inflation, in essence they are exporting the inflation from money printing.  Foreign earners do however recycle it back into the US capital markets, so US capitalists and bankers get the additional benefit of a well-greased capital supply that keeps borrowing costs at bargain basement prices.

Since such an endeavor is so easy and yet so rewarding maybe Russia, China can try this method (that you outlined) as well.

China regularly manipulates the value of its currency to make foreign currency like the USD more expensive and therefore less attractive.

RTN wrote:Not to forget the role played by the US government post World War II to convert backward countries like Japan, South Korea, Singapore, China and a whole lot of countries in Europe into developed states.

"backward countries" you clearly need medical attention, most of thoes countries were more advanced and better developed before they got covered in pindostanski filth.

Germany used to be a major centre of science and technology, now a decadent shithole with not even a tenth of its former glory and every other country in western europe is a similar case, it was great.... before WWII. Add to that how inefficient your economic system and how you retardedly elected to indoctrinate your political class into believing that thier magical little system is infallible and it is quite clear that the only thing you are good for is promoting devolution.

The only backward countries in europe were the countries in eastern europe that the Soviets industrialised and that entirely disintegrated without Russian support.

But seriously an american claiming europe to be backwards this is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard, I mean I know americans are supposed to be dumb but this? If that is not padded cell worth delusion I quite franky cannot fathom what is.

They could use drones!

They have been using MPA aircraft, and fishing boats, and satellites... this will be in addition to... rather than instead of...

Something that the US established 20 years ago.

It is something navies have been doing for centuries... but they haven't had hypersonic anti ship missiles to finish the kill chain...

The "new" net centric warfare is not going to be different from that of the U.S.

It probably is... to start with Russia has a ground based IADS network and communication system experience with rather more capable AD equipment... there were lots of claims about AEGIS, but it does not seem to live up to the hype.

I remember claims in the 1980s that the radars for AEGIS are so sophisticated they can identify targets by counting the number of engines and even the engine turbine blades in flight... a claim shattered when a US cruiser mistook a climbing Airbus as being a descending F-14 and shot it down.

It didn't shoot it down immediately of course, there was a malfunction with the SAM and a delay of 90 seconds before it came back on line and was launched...

However, if a large volume of weapons are used concurrently in a conflict, this mayadd considerably to the demand for network bandwidth.

Bandwidth does not need to be significant.... they wont be sharing Netflix videos or anything... just locations and identities on a shared map... using a wide range of sensors to add targets or information to the map and weapons to remove targets from the map.

Are you sure Russia has that appetite? Especially against a near peer adversary like China or U.S?

If they did they would be acting like the US does...

Russia is new to network centric warfare (NCW).

Rubbish. The Soviets had a PVO network operating for decades... it might be new to the Russian Navy, but it is new for anyone who joins the US Navy too.

Not the US. Ergo, over the last 3 decades the U.S has developed state of the art Observe Orient Decide Act (OODA) loop.

No one would accuse them of not being Loopy.

U.S currently has the best amalgam of information, sensors, and communications that constitutes the “information backplane”of network-centric operations. Therefore, we can change the mode,direction, and objectives of our actions, just as fast as we can bring speed and precision to targeting.

Russia can destroy any of your ships and your satellites too... unless your carriers can dodge Kinzhals then spending minutes watching the missiles approaching and not being able to stop them is going to be rather uncomfortable...

More importantly, the real payoff in network-centric operations is foreshortening combat by causing the enemy to yield long before his means to resist have been exhausted, or long before additional friendly forces might be expected to arrive in the crisis area. This efficiency revolves around the ability of network-centric forces to undertake precise effects-based operations, that is, outcome-oriented activity focused on enemy behavior. The objective of these operations is psychological rather than physical.Hence, they are focused on the enemy’s decision-making process and ability to take action in some coherent manner—especially “getting inside his OODA loop” and inducing or exploiting chaos. The knowledge, precision, speed, andagility brought by network-centric operations constitute the price of admission into this realm.

Was this system in place when they shot down an Iranian Airbus while operating illegally in Iranian waters? Or when a US submarine surfaced off Hawaii and killed a dozen or so Japanese fishermen when it sank their boat. Or during the various collisions of US ships in open water with cargo ships? How about their planes... when they shot down some Syrian Su-22s when one of them dropped a fuel tank and the American pilots panicked and thought they were under attack, or perhaps the people in the gondola in Italy who died when a Navy plane clipped their cable... real heroes there... I believe they destroyed a video tape of the incident after the fact to avoid responsibility...

Regular Russian hacking of computer servers across US and similarly US attempts to hack servers in Russia is a case in point.

I am sure if they could prove it they would... but why would the Russian government bother to hack some US computers... are you really so arrogant to think they think they might learn something interesting?

I am aware of the US paranoid notion that allowing the rest of the world to live and develop is a security risk for them, but that approach has no future, no matter how hard you try.

I am sure countries emerging and developing love a good slap from the US... there is no way that is ever going to bite them in the ass... America will be fine because it can just keep on printing more money and everything will be OK.

The amusing thing is when America expects Russian help in situations like Iran or North Korea... why is Russia so unreasonable...

The first time shit really hits the fan and CONUS starts bleeding for the war your elite is desperately trying to provoke, we will see what the real resistance of US is to those psychological effects you mention, but I would not be very optimistic.

We have seen it with various cyclones... they went to pieces pretty damn quick...

I remember talking to US teenagers in the 1990s and they would talk about the rest of the world like we are all uncivilised savages that will turn on each other at the drop of a hat... I particularly remember during the Rodney King riots how civilised and brotherly the US could be... lots of footage of poor people stealing shit...

A paranoia so intense that we allowed half the world to have a massive trade surplus against us.

Don't tell me you don't understand trade... because with all the paper money shit you lot have been printing this last century or so of course the world will have a trade deficit with you with your monopoly money being pumped out as fast as you can print it... the real question is how long is the rest of the world going to keep accepting that shit with you guys printing it like it is confetti.

Not to forget the role played by the US government post World War II to convert backward countries like Japan, South Korea, Singapore, China and a whole lot of countries in Europe into developed states.

You propped them up as US controlled bitches for the next war you were lining up with the Soviets... the country that carried the heaviest load fighting your last war against the Nazis that you created because you were all such dicks about WWI.

The reason why U.S did not suffer "terrible homeland attrition and the real prospect of being totally annihilated, both politically and ethnically" is because compared to our adversary we were always better prepared.

More like because the countries actively stirring up shit and starting wars didn't do anything along those lines in their own country...

You even helped the Irish against your own allies Britain...

Hate to rain on your parade but CONUS won't bleed for decades to come.

Civil wars are the worst because Americans on both sides will be bleeding...

Uhuh, as if Japan, Korea, Singapore and China wouldn't be able to rise up on their own without American "Help". You are exaggerating America's role in these countries' developments. America needs to stop claiming credit for other's accomplishments.

Just looking at the speed of Russias rise back up... ignored initially and then actively working against growth and development in Russia I would say they have done spectacularly well.

I never said any of these things. I gave you technical reasons as to why Russian Navy is way behind the US in NCW. Your inability to understand a point is not my problem.

But they aren't... they have AEGIS in their Corvettes and Frigates and upgraded ships are getting systems too as will their new ships and aircraft.

Their MiG-29KRs can do all the flash shit an F-35 can do passing target data back to the ships via satellite links etc etc...

Since such an endeavor is so easy and yet so rewarding maybe Russia, China can try this method (that you outlined) as well.

It only works if you can bully or fool the whole world to use the US dollar as the international currency of trade. Fortunately your recent presidents have been wielding the US dollar as a weapon against Russia and China and Iran and plenty of other countries too so they and others are looking for alternatives... recently the Euro surpassed the US dollar in international trade... maybe they should start boosting printing...

China regularly manipulates the value of its currency to make foreign currency like the USD more expensive and therefore less attractive.

It didn't matter before because most international transactions were done in US dollars. Domestic currency manipulation might mean you end up getting more money than you expected when converting it back, but it will also mean you get less dollars when converting it to make the purchase so there is no advantage unless you can time your purchases and sales to coincide with the correct fluctuation... you could just as easily get it wrong and lose money...

Moving this discussion to talking bollocks thread.... too far off topic.

dino00 wrote:By the end of 2024, the Russian Armed Forces will receive 22 fifth-generation Su-57 fighters ahead of schedule, said Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

“For aviation equipment, it is planned to deliver ahead of schedule for 94 aircraft and helicopters by the end of 2024. Among them there are 22 Su-57 aircraft, the number of which will be increased to 76 by 2028, ”Shoigu said on Monday at a meeting of the board of the Russian Defense Ministry on Monday.

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/202012211441-rQMSo.html

Does this mean we don't get to see any production aircraft until 2024? I thought the second production plane was supposed to be delivered this year. Guess not, considering the year is almost done and the second production plane is nowhere to be seen.

Isos wrote:

TMA1 wrote:agreed. its just that I noticed China often revealing stuff right before the Russians and I wonder sometimes if it is to undermine Russia. I know they want to take over Russia's defense industry presence in the far east and mid-east. pisses me off.

Everything they reveal is just a copy of russian stuff. Most of the things they reveal isn't even bought or used by chinese forces.

They have hundreds of type of missiles, hundreds of tanks and other vehicle types and what not else yet only a fraction of them are really produced.

Then you will never get any real info about their quality or for exemple number of crashes of their homemade fighters.

So yeah they can show whatever they want that won't change facts. In 10 years they will try to buy su-57 too for the engines. I hope Russia doesn't make the mistake to give it to them like they did with su-35.

China has 10 times the population of Russia. In terms of manpower and resource and talent pool, Russia cannot compete with China.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

Isos wrote:

TMA1 wrote:agreed. its just that I noticed China often revealing stuff right before the Russians and I wonder sometimes if it is to undermine Russia. I know they want to take over Russia's defense industry presence in the far east and mid-east. pisses me off.

Everything they reveal is just a copy of russian stuff. Most of the things they reveal isn't even bought or used by chinese forces.

They have hundreds of type of missiles, hundreds of tanks and other vehicle types and what not else yet only a fraction of them are really produced.

Then you will never get any real info about their quality or for exemple number of crashes of their homemade fighters.

So yeah they can show whatever they want that won't change facts. In 10 years they will try to buy su-57 too for the engines. I hope Russia doesn't make the mistake to give it to them like they did with su-35.

China has 10 times the population of Russia. In terms of manpower and resource and talent pool, Russia cannot compete with China.

Then why do they keep importing Russian fighter jet engines lol?  

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

Isos wrote:

TMA1 wrote:agreed. its just that I noticed China often revealing stuff right before the Russians and I wonder sometimes if it is to undermine Russia. I know they want to take over Russia's defense industry presence in the far east and mid-east. pisses me off.

Everything they reveal is just a copy of russian stuff. Most of the things they reveal isn't even bought or used by chinese forces.

They have hundreds of type of missiles, hundreds of tanks and other vehicle types and what not else yet only a fraction of them are really produced.

Then you will never get any real info about their quality or for exemple number of crashes of their homemade fighters.

So yeah they can show whatever they want that won't change facts. In 10 years they will try to buy su-57 too for the engines. I hope Russia doesn't make the mistake to give it to them like they did with su-35.

China has 10 times the population of Russia. In terms of manpower and resource and talent pool, Russia cannot compete with China.

Then why do they keep importing Russian fighter jet engines lol?  

Russians should be grateful. Other than China, no one else buys from Russia.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

dino00 wrote:By the end of 2024, the Russian Armed Forces will receive 22 fifth-generation Su-57 fighters ahead of schedule, said Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

“For aviation equipment, it is planned to deliver ahead of schedule for 94 aircraft and helicopters by the end of 2024. Among them there are 22 Su-57 aircraft, the number of which will be increased to 76 by 2028, ”Shoigu said on Monday at a meeting of the board of the Russian Defense Ministry on Monday.

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/202012211441-rQMSo.html

Does this mean we don't get to see any production aircraft until 2024? I thought the second production plane was supposed to be delivered this year. Guess not, considering the year is almost done and the second production plane is nowhere to be seen.

Saving this post for the next days

Tai Hai Chen wrote:Russians should be grateful. Other than China, no one else buys from Russia.

No one buys shit quality Chinese military hardware except for failed states like Nigeria and Pakistan, way more nations buy military hardware from Russia than "Let me copy your homework!" China lol!

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:Russians should be grateful. Other than China, no one else buys from Russia.

No one buys shit quality Chinese military hardware except for failed states like Nigeria and Pakistan, way more nations buy military hardware from Russia than "Let me copy your homework!" China lol!

Name me one country that buys from Russia.

25 countries have a Mig 29 in service so I'd challenge the claim that only China buys Russian.

Backman wrote:25 countries have a Mig 29 in service so I'd challenge the claim that only China buys Russian.

Yeah but those are really old orders dating back years or even decades. Today the Russian military aviation industry is entirely dependent on Chinese orders to keep it alive. After CAATSA, not even Egypt's Su-35 which were ordered prior to CAATSA can be delivered, and Indonesia promptly canceled Su-35 deal and went for F-15 / 18.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:Russians should be grateful. Other than China, no one else buys from Russia.

No one buys shit quality Chinese military hardware except for failed states like Nigeria and Pakistan, way more nations buy military hardware from Russia than "Let me copy your homework!" China lol!

Name me one country that buys from Russia.

India, Algeria, Egypt, Uganda, Serbia, Venezuela, Cuba, Myanmar, Vietnam, Belarus, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Sudan, Syria, UAE, Bangladesh, China itself, etc.

Even Pakistan who relies on cheap Chinese shit was begging for Su-35 when India was sucking America's dick.

You can just go to Wikipedia, go look up various Russian aircrafts and tanks, and see what countries operate them.

A lots more than what China has. Hence why Russia is second to US in export of weapons. France is ahead of China.

miketheterrible wrote:A lots more than what China has. Hence why Russia is second to US in export of weapons. France is ahead of China.

You are comparing apples and oranges. 1 USD buys a lot more in China than it does in France. In terms of PPP, China exports way more than France in military hardware. Actually, in terms of military hardware exports, China and the US dominate the market. Russia used to be #2 after the US prior to CAATSA which decimated Russian military hardware exports, as evident by Indonesia canceling Su-35 deal and Egypt not getting Su-35 delivery.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/arms-sales-us-china-weapons-b1767462.html

Without China keeping the Russian military aviation afloat the Russian military aviation industry would go bankrupt within years. Only orders from Russian air force is not enough to keep it alive.