Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7

They've already hinted that Su-57 based aircraft will eventually replace all existing 4th gen aircraft when an official said that the Su-57 platform is planned to be built in the hundreds

Even if they make 300 it wont be enough to replace all the Su-30 and Su-35s they have, and I really don't think they need to.

They are about to make numbers of light fighters in the form of the MiG-35, while working on a light 5th gen stealth fighter to operate with it... the focus of both would be low cost operations... now you do the math... if they plan to have say 300 Su-57s along with the same or perhaps double that number of S-70 drones, and they expect to still have perhaps 300 Su-30 and Su-35 large heavy aircraft, that is about 1200 platforms... but the lighter cheaper aircraft... 4th and 5th gen light fighters are supposed to be your numbers fighters so there is a good chance they will be ultimately wanting at least 1200 light fighters too... including 4th and 5th gen fighters as well as 5th gen drones... with perhaps more drones than fighters, but we are still talking large numbers of aircraft... but then they have a lot of airspace to cover.

The real question is what form will these new light 5th gen fighters be in... the new Checkmate, or something new from MiG that is essentially a stealthy LIFT with one engine... or the carrier based fighter they have revealed which just looks like a twin engined checkmate.

GarryB wrote:Even if they make 300 it wont be enough to replace all the Su-30 and Su-35s they have, and I really don't think they need to.

They are about to make numbers of light fighters in the form of the MiG-35, while working on a light 5th gen stealth fighter to operate with it... the focus of both would be low cost operations... now you do the math... if they plan to have say 300 Su-57s along with the same or perhaps double that number of S-70 drones, and they expect to still have perhaps 300 Su-30 and Su-35 large heavy aircraft, that is about 1200 platforms... but the lighter cheaper aircraft... 4th and 5th gen light fighters are supposed to be your numbers fighters so there is a good chance they will be ultimately wanting at least 1200 light fighters too... including 4th and 5th gen fighters as well as 5th gen drones... with perhaps more drones than fighters, but we are still talking large numbers of aircraft... but then they have a lot of airspace to cover.

The real question is what form will these new light 5th gen fighters be in... the new Checkmate, or something new from MiG that is essentially a stealthy LIFT with one engine... or the carrier based fighter they have revealed which just looks like a twin engined checkmate.

The trick is that those numbers will never operate at the same time. So despite the VKS needing to grow in numbers significantly (more even so, once cheaper UCAVs start "saturating" the fleet as the Russians say), the 5G fighters will start substituting the 3 and 4G ones, first the Su-24, MiG-29, Su-27. By then, the production lines will be already loaded with 5G fighters and 4.5G ones will not be purchased any more. As the number of 5G planes grows, the fleet will grow in the beginning and then older airframes of the 4.5G will be substituted too. 150-200x Su-57, 300-400x S-70, 300-400x LTS (manned and unmanned) would be a very serious force already (750-1000 fighters and strike planes), but perfectly realistic in the long term IMHO. Russia today already has almost 250x Su-35 + Su-30, ca. 200x Su-34 + Su-24, plus > 50 Su-27 + Mig-29, that is already 500 units, without still having totally recovered from the 90's, with the advantage that the new composition would be integrated by a majority of unmanned / light / single engine planes with significantly lower purchasing and operational costs than the current fleet.

The Su-35 series will definately be around for a while. I don't think it will be replaced by 5th generation jets, rather maybe by 6th generation when unmanned strike and fighter craft become the norm

flamming_python wrote:The Su-35 series will definately be around for a while. I don't think it will be replaced by 5th generation jets, rather maybe by 6th generation when unmanned strike and fighter craft become the norm

They will be used for the remainder of their service life but once production of Su-57 revs up they will stop buying them due to overlap, they are both air superiority fighters

Lennox wrote:Sup guys I'm new to this forum.

I do have sth to share regarding the canopy. That pic is from an old prototype (T-50-1 or 2 with an old canopy (which btw was replaced from the 3rd T-50).

The bubbles here are most likely due to the way it's produced. It has 2 layers of silicate glass (18mm thick in front and 16mm at the back (pilot facing)) and a layer of polyurethane in between, so you can imagine the manufacturing process of this canopy is kinda hell, especially with the polyurethane and the curvature of the canopy, which causes bubbles inside the polyurethane layer.

Anyway, it's simple physics that when the Su-57 flies up high, pressure drops and so the volume of the bubbles in the polyurethane layer expands, which explains why it's visible only when the plane flies and not on the ground. Its really hard (impossible) to prevent those bubbles in the first place, but they by no means will affect the pilot's safety and the canopy's hardness. I mean, the canopies were 600kmh-chicken-tested alr anyway.

What's worth noting though, is the fact that Sukhoi has changed the canopy design to a monolithic polycarbonate glass one, which has lower thickness yet better strengths and lower weight.

All you have to do is watch the whole episode that Combat Approved did on the canopy to know that the canopy is just as detailed as the one on the F-22

But the trolls really seem to think that the bubbles on the canopy are just the same bubbles you see when you pick up a sheet of plexty glass at the Home Depot.

Backman wrote:

Lennox wrote:Sup guys I'm new to this forum.

I do have sth to share regarding the canopy. That pic is from an old prototype (T-50-1 or 2 with an old canopy (which btw was replaced from the 3rd T-50).

The bubbles here are most likely due to the way it's produced. It has 2 layers of silicate glass (18mm thick in front and 16mm at the back (pilot facing)) and a layer of polyurethane in between, so you can imagine the manufacturing process of this canopy is kinda hell, especially with the polyurethane and the curvature of the canopy, which causes bubbles inside the polyurethane layer.

Anyway, it's simple physics that when the Su-57 flies up high, pressure drops and so the volume of the bubbles in the polyurethane layer expands, which explains why it's visible only when the plane flies and not on the ground. Its really hard (impossible) to prevent those bubbles in the first place, but they by no means will affect the pilot's safety and the canopy's hardness. I mean, the canopies were 600kmh-chicken-tested alr anyway.

What's worth noting though, is the fact that Sukhoi has changed the canopy design to a monolithic polycarbonate glass one, which has lower thickness yet better strengths and lower weight.

All you have to do is watch the whole episode that Combat Approved did on the canopy to know that the canopy is just as detailed as the one on the F-22

But the trolls really seem to think that the bubbles on the canopy are just the same bubbles you see when you pick up a sheet of plexty glass at the Home Depot.

I'm almost sure the Su-57 canopy protection was beyond standards. iirc, one of the protection requirements was the ability to withstand a shot from a 600kmh chicken gun. But somewhere in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, an engineer had too much vodka and decided to bump it up to a 645kmh shot, and then even to another notch, 777kmh. Canopy still intact ofc.

Anyway, you're assuming that trolls hv the sufficient brain capacity to watch a whole video. That's like telling flat-earthers to maybe look out of a plane's window.

PapaDragon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:The Su-35 series will definately be around for a while. I don't think it will be replaced by 5th generation jets, rather maybe by 6th generation when unmanned strike and fighter craft become the norm

They will be used for the remainder of their service life but once production of Su-57 revs up they will stop buying them due to overlap, they are both air superiority fighters

as many Su-35s and Su-30s as necessary to fill the assigned regiments will be purchased

The Su-57 does not replace any aircraft, it is an expansion of the fleet.
New regiments will be raised until 2028. I hope at least other near Moscow until 2030.

Air defense will have a new concept
The Su-57 will lead air defense groups together with 2-4 more aircraft (Su-35, Su-30 ...)
In addition, air defense will not only include the hunting of aggressor aircraft , but also the elimination of the ground infrastructure to support these aggressor aircraft in the territories bordering Russia through the use of stealth S-70s (commanded by the Su-57s).

When all the necessary Su-35s and Su-57s have been purchased, modernization will proceed next decade, in addition to starting the project of a next-generation aircraft after that.
The 2030s will focus on rebuilding the Navy Air Force (Shipbrne fighters and helicopters, antisubmarine patrol and coastal aviation)

Considering that Su-35 purchases slowed down, it seems unlikely that the Navy Air Force will receive this type of aircraft for Kaliningrad or Severomorsk.

In addition, if each Fleet must have a Su-30SM regiment, it does not seem that at this rate many more will be bought, given that since 2018 purchases have been paralyzed, and will re-start just now
Rather, it seems that part of the Su-30SM of the VKS will be transferred to the Navy, leaving the Su-30 and the VKS only as twice the Su-35.

Therefore I see the VKS Air Force equipped with Su-35, Su-57 and S-70, and the Navy Air Force, equipped with Su-30SM and another 5th generation aircraft (Su-75 or MiG 5th generation, in several versions: shipborne, land-based and unmanned)

LMFS wrote:

GarryB wrote:Even if they make 300 it wont be enough to replace all the Su-30 and Su-35s they have, and I really don't think they need to.

They are about to make numbers of light fighters in the form of the MiG-35, while working on a light 5th gen stealth fighter to operate with it... the focus of both would be low cost operations... now you do the math... if they plan to have say 300 Su-57s along with the same or perhaps double that number of S-70 drones, and they expect to still have perhaps 300 Su-30 and Su-35 large heavy aircraft, that is about 1200 platforms... but the lighter cheaper aircraft... 4th and 5th gen light fighters are supposed to be your numbers fighters so there is a good chance they will be ultimately wanting at least 1200 light fighters too... including 4th and 5th gen fighters as well as 5th gen drones... with perhaps more drones than fighters, but we are still talking large numbers of aircraft... but then they have a lot of airspace to cover.

The real question is what form will these new light 5th gen fighters be in... the new Checkmate, or something new from MiG that is essentially a stealthy LIFT with one engine... or the carrier based fighter they have revealed which just looks like a twin engined checkmate.

The trick is that those numbers will never operate at the same time. So despite the VKS needing to grow in numbers significantly (more even so, once cheaper UCAVs start "saturating" the fleet as the Russians say), the 5G fighters will start substituting the 3 and 4G ones, first the Su-24, MiG-29, Su-27. By then, the production lines will be already loaded with 5G fighters and 4.5G ones will not be purchased any more. As the number of 5G planes grows, the fleet will grow in the beginning and then older airframes of the 4.5G will be substituted too. 150-200x Su-57, 300-400x S-70, 300-400x LTS (manned and unmanned) would be a very serious force already (750-1000 fighters and strike planes), but perfectly realistic in the long term IMHO. Russia today already has almost 250x Su-35 + Su-30, ca. 200x Su-34 + Su-24, plus > 50 Su-27 + Mig-29, that is already 500 units, without still having totally recovered from the 90's, with the advantage that the new composition would be integrated by a majority of unmanned / light / single engine planes with significantly lower purchasing and operational costs than the current fleet.

By no means are so many planes going to be bought.
The size of the aircraft fleet will increase a bit with the arrival of the Su-57 and later the Navy Air Force will be expanded with more Su-30 and other 5th generation aircraft

Why does Russia need 300 Su-57s if USA operates only 5 combat squadrons with 123 F-22 block 30/35/40 and one training squadron with 28 F-22 block 20 ?

aviation is necessary for low and medium intensity conflicts and as a resource to delay the nuclear option in high intensity conflicts

An attempted aggression on a large scale by NATO would require a large concentration of aircraft and material in the bordering countries, which would be detected early.
In the event of hostile movement, NATO facilities in Eastern Europe would be volatilized by nuclear weapons before most NATO airplanes even took off, so it doesn't matter if the USA has 200 or 2000 F-35s.

AMCXXL wrote:

LMFS wrote:

GarryB wrote:Even if they make 300 it wont be enough to replace all the Su-30 and Su-35s they have, and I really don't think they need to.

They are about to make numbers of light fighters in the form of the MiG-35, while working on a light 5th gen stealth fighter to operate with it... the focus of both would be low cost operations... now you do the math... if they plan to have say 300 Su-57s along with the same or perhaps double that number of S-70 drones, and they expect to still have perhaps 300 Su-30 and Su-35 large heavy aircraft, that is about 1200 platforms... but the lighter cheaper aircraft... 4th and 5th gen light fighters are supposed to be your numbers fighters so there is a good chance they will be ultimately wanting at least 1200 light fighters too... including 4th and 5th gen fighters as well as 5th gen drones... with perhaps more drones than fighters, but we are still talking large numbers of aircraft... but then they have a lot of airspace to cover.

The real question is what form will these new light 5th gen fighters be in... the new Checkmate, or something new from MiG that is essentially a stealthy LIFT with one engine... or the carrier based fighter they have revealed which just looks like a twin engined checkmate.

The trick is that those numbers will never operate at the same time. So despite the VKS needing to grow in numbers significantly (more even so, once cheaper UCAVs start "saturating" the fleet as the Russians say), the 5G fighters will start substituting the 3 and 4G ones, first the Su-24, MiG-29, Su-27. By then, the production lines will be already loaded with 5G fighters and 4.5G ones will not be purchased any more. As the number of 5G planes grows, the fleet will grow in the beginning and then older airframes of the 4.5G will be substituted too. 150-200x Su-57, 300-400x S-70, 300-400x LTS (manned and unmanned) would be a very serious force already (750-1000 fighters and strike planes), but perfectly realistic in the long term IMHO. Russia today already has almost 250x Su-35 + Su-30, ca. 200x Su-34 + Su-24, plus > 50 Su-27 + Mig-29, that is already 500 units, without still having totally recovered from the 90's, with the advantage that the new composition would be integrated by a majority of unmanned / light / single engine planes with significantly lower purchasing and operational costs than the current fleet.

By no means are so many planes going to be bought.
The size of the aircraft fleet will increase a bit with the arrival of the Su-57 and later the Navy Air Force will be expanded with more Su-30 and other 5th generation aircraft

Why does Russia need 300 Su-57s if USA operates only 5 combat squadrons with 123 F-22 block 30/35/40 and one training squadron with 28 F-22 block 20 ?

aviation is necessary for low and medium intensity conflicts and as a resource to delay the nuclear option in high intensity conflicts

An attempted aggression on a large scale by NATO would require a large concentration of aircraft and material in the bordering countries, which would be detected early.
In the event of hostile movement, NATO facilities in Eastern Europe would be volatilized by nuclear weapons before most NATO planes even took off, so it doesn't matter if the USA has 200 or 2000 F-35s.

amigo can you update numbers of mig-29, su-27, su-24 and su-25 in this thread?

https://www.russiadefence.net/t4806-russian-air-force-numbers-and-procurement-plans

The Su-35 series will definately be around for a while. I don't think it will be replaced by 5th generation jets, rather maybe by 6th generation when unmanned strike and fighter craft become the norm

Look at Israels situation in Syria... their F-35s will be expensive to operate and in stealth mode have a very limited weapons payload, but stealth is not effective in Syria because of S-400 and other systems so they have a "light" expensive to buy and expensive to operate plane with shorter range lower flight speed lower weapon capacity than an F-16 that is cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate.

Now of course American planes are fucked up when an F-15 is cheaper to operate than their new light 5th gen fighter.

For Russia it all comes down to costs... they are exceptionally lucky because the Su-35 is an excellent plane and the Su-57 seems to be too, but I rather suspect the Su-57 will only be critical in a few situations and most of the time the Su-35 will be good enough and have lower operating costs and better payload capacity.

I suspect it will be the same for the LTS and Mig-35, but I also think the new MiG design for the LMFS will be more like a much lighter aircraft that is more like a MiG-21 with stealth features... this will impact its performance but it will be cheaper to operate than even the Yak-130.

I therefore think they will buy 250 Su-57s at most... possibly just 200 but together with S-70 that will be plenty... I think the Su-35 and Su-30 together with their own drone fighters S-70 they wont need enormous numbers either, but I think bigger numbers of MiG-35 actually make sense but along with their own drones and limited numbers of 5th gen light fighters because in the light role 5th gen fighters don't make more sense than 5th gen light drones.

For normal operations the drones will be kept in reserve and for war will be brought out to massively boost available air power when needed.

AMCXXL wrote:

LMFS wrote:

GarryB wrote:Even if they make 300 it wont be enough to replace all the Su-30 and Su-35s they have, and I really don't think they need to.

They are about to make numbers of light fighters in the form of the MiG-35, while working on a light 5th gen stealth fighter to operate with it... the focus of both would be low cost operations... now you do the math... if they plan to have say 300 Su-57s along with the same or perhaps double that number of S-70 drones, and they expect to still have perhaps 300 Su-30 and Su-35 large heavy aircraft, that is about 1200 platforms... but the lighter cheaper aircraft... 4th and 5th gen light fighters are supposed to be your numbers fighters so there is a good chance they will be ultimately wanting at least 1200 light fighters too... including 4th and 5th gen fighters as well as 5th gen drones... with perhaps more drones than fighters, but we are still talking large numbers of aircraft... but then they have a lot of airspace to cover.

The real question is what form will these new light 5th gen fighters be in... the new Checkmate, or something new from MiG that is essentially a stealthy LIFT with one engine... or the carrier based fighter they have revealed which just looks like a twin engined checkmate.

The trick is that those numbers will never operate at the same time. So despite the VKS needing to grow in numbers significantly (more even so, once cheaper UCAVs start "saturating" the fleet as the Russians say), the 5G fighters will start substituting the 3 and 4G ones, first the Su-24, MiG-29, Su-27. By then, the production lines will be already loaded with 5G fighters and 4.5G ones will not be purchased any more. As the number of 5G planes grows, the fleet will grow in the beginning and then older airframes of the 4.5G will be substituted too. 150-200x Su-57, 300-400x S-70, 300-400x LTS (manned and unmanned) would be a very serious force already (750-1000 fighters and strike planes), but perfectly realistic in the long term IMHO. Russia today already has almost 250x Su-35 + Su-30, ca. 200x Su-34 + Su-24, plus > 50 Su-27 + Mig-29, that is already 500 units, without still having totally recovered from the 90's, with the advantage that the new composition would be integrated by a majority of unmanned / light / single engine planes with significantly lower purchasing and operational costs than the current fleet.

By no means are so many planes going to be bought.
The size of the aircraft fleet will increase a bit with the arrival of the Su-57 and later the Navy Air Force will be expanded with more Su-30 and other 5th generation aircraft

Why does Russia need 300 Su-57s if USA operates only 5 combat squadrons with 123 F-22 block 30/35/40 and one training squadron with 28 F-22 block 20 ?

aviation is necessary for low and medium intensity conflicts and as a resource to delay the nuclear option in high intensity conflicts

An attempted aggression on a large scale by NATO would require a large concentration of aircraft and material in the bordering countries, which would be detected early.
In the event of hostile movement, NATO facilities in Eastern Europe would be volatilized by nuclear weapons before most NATO airplanes even took off, so it doesn't matter if the USA has 200 or 2000 F-35s.

Eventually there could be 300 su 57 for the simple fact that its a evolutionary design from the Flanker line anyway.

A variant with the old engine can take the roll that su 30sm and su 35 have. The su 57 is smaller with better aero. It will probably be cheaper to operate. Especially the base model.

PapaDragon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:The Su-35 series will definately be around for a while. I don't think it will be replaced by 5th generation jets, rather maybe by 6th generation when unmanned strike and fighter craft become the norm

They will be used for the remainder of their service life but once production of Su-57 revs up they will stop buying them due to overlap, they are both air superiority fighters

Naturally.

I rather meant that the Su-35S will not be replaced by the Su-57 in operation. Superceded in procurement - sure.

AMCXXL wrote:The Su-57 does not replace any aircraft, it is an expansion of the fleet.

In the logic of platform development, Su-57 is the substitute of the T-10 family, you cannot keep updating both lines in parallel. In 15 years time Russia will be turning it into a 6G platform and buying it actively, not Su-35 and Su-30. US wrecked their 5G turning it into a black hole of funding with unreasonable requirements and under the excuse of stealth, Russian military is not like that. LTS is the proof that 5G is not intrinsically unaffordable or just a boutique complement for the fleets. Russia producing planes at the pace of roughly 1 sqd per year means it would take 20 years to reach 200 units, by that time the older Su-35 will already be like 30 years old. What we talk about is a long term replacement program that will take several decades.

In addition, air defense will not only include the hunting of aggressor aircraft , but also the elimination of the ground infrastructure to support these aggressor aircraft in the territories bordering Russia through the use of stealth S-70s (commanded by the Su-57s).

I have always thought that was the plan all along.

When all the necessary Su-35s and Su-57s have been purchased, modernization will proceed next decade, in addition to starting the project of a next-generation aircraft after that.
The 2030s will focus on rebuilding the Navy Air Force (Shipbrne fighters and helicopters, antisubmarine patrol and coastal aviation)

There is a 6G engine being developed on the core of izd. 30 and with the same size, in parallel the development roadmap for Su-57 continues being worked on. It is a late 5G plane and they have said it will be the transition to 6G.

Therefore I see the VKS Air Force equipped with Su-35, Su-57 and S-70, and the Navy Air Force, equipped with Su-30SM and another 5th generation aircraft (Su-75 or MiG 5th generation, in several versions: shipborne, land-based and unmanned)

There is no reason why the VKS would not like a modern cheap plane like LTS to increase numbers. As said, it has practically the same range as Su-30.

Why does Russia need 300 Su-57s if USA operates only 5 combat squadrons with 123 F-22 block 30/35/40 and one training squadron with 28 F-22 block 20 ?

I have said 150-200 Su-57. And of course there are many other planes Russia needs to take care of apart from F-22, like NGAD, F-35, all the European rather modern fighters, Turkey, Eastern Europe, Japan, Korea etc.

aviation is necessary for low and medium intensity conflicts and as a resource to delay the nuclear option in high intensity conflicts

Yes, that is why Russia needs both to grow numbers in the VKS/VMF-MA and also transition to cheaper platforms.

An attempted aggression on a large scale by NATO would require a large concentration of aircraft and material in the bordering countries, which would be detected early.
In the event of hostile movement, NATO facilities in Eastern Europe would be volatilized by nuclear weapons before most NATO airplanes even took off, so it doesn't matter if the USA has 200 or 2000 F-35s.

Russia already has nukes, that does not prevent conventional capabilities needing to be increased to get escalation control.

Footage from the Su-57 production site

Does someone still have that PAK-FA Bingo thread ? I found it once on quora and it never surfaced back.

Part 5 of the Su-57 series from Millennium 7*.
Interestingly, he mentions that the DIRCM turrets also perform other functions like missile detecting and IR imaging.
Also he called it "101KS-O/N".

zepia wrote:

Part 5 of the Su-57 series from Millennium 7*.
Interestingly, he mentions that the DIRCM turrets also perform other functions like missile detecting and IR imaging.
Also he called it "101KS-O/N".

Yeah he's pretty damn good and super knowledgeable. I wonder where he'll be getting the info on all the armament for the next episode he mentioned?!?! Since there has been hardly any information besides some of the new missiles that have been specifically created and emphasis on "some" and not all and of course, only that one vertical firing from the enclosed wing pod and that's about it. So that will be pretty fascinating to see and looking forward to it. Otis is a little irritating TBH loool but other than that, great stuff.

Production of an upgraded version of the Su-57 may begin in 2025

An updated cockpit with advanced avionics will be installed in the updated version of the fighter within the framework of the Megapolis ROC. In addition, the plane will be equipped with a second stage power plant, a source said.

MOSCOW, August 9. / TASS /. The production of the upgraded version of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter as part of the Megapolis development work (ROC) is expected to begin in 2025. A source in the military-industrial complex told TASS about it.

"In the updated version of the fighter within the framework of the Megapolis ROC, a completely updated cockpit with the most advanced avionics will be installed. In addition, the aircraft will be equipped with a second stage power plant. It is planned that from 2025 the modernized Su-57 should begin mass production," said the interlocutor of the agency.

He also clarified that the Su-57 fighter within the framework of the Megapolis ROC will be made in a single-seat version.

TASS has no official confirmation of this information.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12085969

The second serial Su-57? 

I want to see a proof before I like your post.

x_54_u43 wrote:Dude, you're replying to an obvious fucking troll and over prototype number 11, FFS.

Calm down, dude.  Maybe it's an age thing, but I don't troll so maybe I don't recognize it very well. But even so, why get so bent out of shape? Funny thing is that this is the 3rd time someone has gotten bent out of shape over a harmless post of mine that had more positive elements to it than any constructive criticism.  Take it easy, it ain't worth the stress.

And a nice pic.  

F-22 is not better... and switching rivets for some glue isn't recommanded.

I thank all of you for the information.
However it is highly unrecommended to respond to trolls.

In another news. Does Anyone here have a background in the physics of radio scattering? I am interested in the complex shape of the landing gear doors.