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So that will allow the Ukraine to keep destroying novorossiyan equipment and personally indefinitely, since we see Russia will never shoot the down?miketheterrible wrote:Problem is, the drones flies higher than I believe any current DNR/LNR ad system can hit it. Besides Russia providing air support in creating a no fly zone, not much can be done about these drones besides the forces of the region use electronic warfare.
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The Situation in the Ukraine. #30
limb- Posts : 1550
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GarryB- Posts : 40578
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Looks like the Ukies may have hit back at a D30 firing at them. A video shows the gun crew, gun out in the open, running away after the explosion.
Ask the Israelis... the easiest way to justify an attack is claim it is self defence...
Reports are coming in now that Ukrainian forces have attacked an oil depot in Donetsk using a drone.
Don't tell me... the drone attack was in response because the oil depot attacked a church or a school and this was self defence...
Also today, looks like some upgraded AD may be needed.
The cheapest and simplest AD considering they are never going to attack with thousands of drones would be a drone of their own fitted with a semi auto shotgun that can be flown up to the height the enemy drone is operating and and make a shallow dive on the drone considering it has a pusher propeller so it has no tail gun and probably has limited visibility behind and above and it would make a running attack easier... just some heavy buckshot ammo loaded.... so a few dollars in ammo... easy to get easy to afford and just manually fly them when there is information they are in the air... which is the main problem, but thermal imagers and help from a neighbour as warning might be useful there.
A shotgun perhaps with a belt feed is relatively compact and light and cheap and would not cause danger to people on the ground like a rifle calibre machine gun would.
Another option could be a belt fed 9mm SMG or .22lr weapon which could both reach out to greater effective ranges and still not present a huge danger on the ground... if fired at an altitude of 4km or more buckshot or 9mm pistol bullets or .22lr rifle bullets would be mostly harmless to people on the ground... a spread of buckshot or burst of 9mm or .22LR rounds gives a decent chance of multiple hits to make the target crash... a full auto .22lr might be effective to 20-30m, while a 9mm might do damage to 60-70m... buckshot probably effective to 30-40m.
Lighter pellet rounds for closer in but they might not have the projectile weight to do more than superficial damage.
Putin admits the Ukrainian people ie pro Russians are being suppressed by the Banderite-Washington filth.
Pro Russian people get a hard time in most western countries... including the Baltic states... that does not make it Russias problem.
So that knocks out some of the comments that "the Russians in the Ukraine deserve it".
The pro Russian Ukrainians are putting up with this treatment... nobody deserves to be forced to speak a different language, and certainly not be burned to death for it.
Strangely he is rather silent on what he'll do.
His body language suggests he's deliberately biting his tongue.
Probably because he knows if he inflames the tensions he could make things a lot worse and fall into the civil war trap the west was hoping he would wander in to.
The Ukraine was broken over a period of 30 years and one invasion by Russian troops cannot fix that overnight if at all.
Many Ukrainians would love for Russian troops to invade the Ukraine... but that would be many from both sides... some will see them as liberators to get rid of the nazis the Americans put in charge, but some will see it as a chance to shoot Russians... their country is currently a shithole... they don't have much to lose, but know they will get full western support if it turns into a shooting war...
The west loves its little pets.... those little vermin from Poland and the Baltic States and Belarus and Ukraine and Georgia and Azerbaijan and even Armenia that hate Russians and spit venom at them at every opportunity... and while Russia is the enemy they will be kept as court pets... court jesters if you will.
At some stage however there is going to be a split between Europe and the US... Even Boris Johnson has said the UK needs better relations with Russia.... because trade and income are always better than being Americas cock sucker.
When that happens there is going to be a house cleaning and those anti Russian voices no doubt will be sidelined because it wont be practical to ignore and isolate and demonise Russia any more... they will talk about partnerships and cooperation and all the stuff Putin was talking about since he was elected and was rebuffed and ignored over... but when it is their idea it will be the newest and best thinking and the only real future for the world...
they will always be assholes.The question really will be whether Russia will have boosted trade ties and links with Asia and Africa and central and south America to the point where they can say thanks but no thanks... we already have full ships sailing the world and we know what sort of friend you are...
So that will allow the Ukraine to keep destroying novorossiyan equipment and personally indefinitely, since we see Russia will never shoot the down?
An excellent polygon for anti drone drones armed with guns or other weapons like nets etc for use against enemy drones... an ideal situation where they can work through the issues of a drone that will get to altitude fast enough to be effective, but also early warning and suitable weapons for dealing with the problem... and of course they could probably return the favour with a few suicide drones to test as well.
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Firebird- Posts : 1813
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GarryB wrote:
Pro Russian people get a hard time in most western countries... including the Baltic states... that does not make it Russias problem.
The pro Russian Ukrainians are putting up with this treatment... nobody deserves to be forced to speak a different language, and certainly not be burned to death for it.
Probably because he knows if he inflames the tensions he could make things a lot worse and fall into the civil war trap the west was hoping he would wander in to.
The Ukraine was broken over a period of 30 years and one invasion by Russian troops cannot fix that overnight if at all.
Many Ukrainians would love for Russian troops to invade the Ukraine... but that would be many from both sides... some will see them as liberators to get rid of the nazis the Americans put in charge, but some will see it as a chance to shoot Russians... their country is currently a shithole... they don't have much to lose, but know they will get full western support if it turns into a shooting war...
The west loves its little pets.... those little vermin from Poland and the Baltic States and Belarus and Ukraine and Georgia and Azerbaijan and even Armenia that hate Russians and spit venom at them at every opportunity... and while Russia is the enemy they will be kept as court pets... court jesters if you will.
At some stage however there is going to be a split between Europe and the US... Even Boris Johnson has said the UK needs better relations with Russia.... because trade and income are always better than being Americas cock sucker.
When that happens there is going to be a house cleaning and those anti Russian voices no doubt will be sidelined because it wont be practical to ignore and isolate and demonise Russia any more... they will talk about partnerships and cooperation and all the stuff Putin was talking about since he was elected and was rebuffed and ignored over... but when it is their idea it will be the newest and best thinking and the only real future for the world...
The question really will be whether Russia will have boosted trade ties and links with Asia and Africa and central and south America to the point where they can say thanks but no thanks... we already have full ships sailing the world and we know what sort of friend you are...
1)The Ukraine isn't a "Western country". Its a mix - half Russian but originally separate for reasons supposedly of Moscow's choosing. Most of it is the Russian World - historically, culturally, economically even legally in many ways.
To say otherwise is like saying Hawaii is Russian.
2) This is the most important point.
Putin is speaking far far differently now.
Before he would say "the Ukrainian people must make up their minds".
Now he is saying "the Ukrainian/Russian people there are being terrorised by a fascist state controlled by Nazis".
Obviously he doesn't want to say military action yet, that is not his way. He isn't Rogozin.
But observers in the Pukraine, the US, EU will know exactly what he is conveying.
3) A quarter of it is rabidly antiRussian because the pro Russians were basically exterminated in the Great Patriotic War.
Check out the CIA's Wikipedia. Infact Lviv was just 15% Ukrainian in 1930 and nearly 30% Jewish! BY 1950, Poles, Russians and the tiny number of remaining Jews were 50% of it. The situation in other parts of W Ukraine are even more non Ukrainian historically.
Thats why "democratic mandate" in the West Ukraine isn't a democratic mandate at all. Its power as the result of genocide.
In any case, that shithole is pretty irrelevant.
4)Yes the Baltics are scum too. But partition is not an easy thing there.
Russia is starting to turn the screw tho. And the EU will more and more see the US as nothing more than an arrogant troublemaker. Russia has built its own megaport, thereby making the Baltic state ports largely redundant. And there is more it can and will do.
5) Russia has already been "naughty" with the Crimea. What did Uncle Sham do? Nothing! Because he can't do anything
Same would happen with the rest of the Ukraine.
6)Russia managed to let a tiny little area of 6m beat a place of 40m. By "providing suport... but not providing support" - it was never caught providing anything.
So you can't think Russia will struggle if it openly decides to liberate Russians from Nazis. Putin himself said he'd in control of the country within 16 hrs. And that was before the route via Belarus was opened up.
7)Sooner or later Putin will have to ignore short term economic issues.
Every year that passes, more fools will be brainwashed into "Ukrainification", making the inevitably required job harder and harder.
Why do you think VVP has changed his tone so much?
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Maybe they can throw grandma in the oven while they are at it.
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GarryB wrote:Looks like the Ukies may have hit back at a D30 firing at them. A video shows the gun crew, gun out in the open, running away after the explosion.
Ask the Israelis... the easiest way to justify an attack is claim it is self defence...
A poster in that Drive thread, now deleted, said that the D30 was responding to an earlier Ukie attack.
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Seems to have started with the normal Ukies taking pot shots this afternoon and then developed, continuing into the evening.
Status-6
@Archer83Able
·
2h
Fighting ongoing near Dokuchaievsk, Yasynuvata and north of Donetsk, locals say.
marqs
@MarQs__
· 2h
Intense battles in #Dokuchaievsk. Not the usual mortar and artillery battles over distance. This sounds more like CQB. Many videos being posted on social media right now.
Then this is spotted, not sure if just normal movements
Status-6
@Archer83Able
·
2h
It appears that Voronezh Maslovka railway station is again packed with the Russian military equipment, just like in April.
Comms vehicles, 2S19 Msta-S SPGs on wagons, BMPs, MT-LB armored vehicles and more.
Status-6
@Archer83Able
·
2h
Fighting ongoing near Dokuchaievsk, Yasynuvata and north of Donetsk, locals say.
marqs
@MarQs__
· 2h
Intense battles in #Dokuchaievsk. Not the usual mortar and artillery battles over distance. This sounds more like CQB. Many videos being posted on social media right now.
Then this is spotted, not sure if just normal movements
Status-6
@Archer83Able
·
2h
It appears that Voronezh Maslovka railway station is again packed with the Russian military equipment, just like in April.
Comms vehicles, 2S19 Msta-S SPGs on wagons, BMPs, MT-LB armored vehicles and more.
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https://thesaker.is/bayraktar-saga-continued-more-preparations-for-war/
Interesting viewpoint.
Maybe stuff IS going to happen.
Putin has been very patient.
Its starting to look like S Osseita/Abkhazia all over again.
Perhaps the comedian in Kiev will also eat his own tie.
Interesting viewpoint.
Maybe stuff IS going to happen.
Putin has been very patient.
Its starting to look like S Osseita/Abkhazia all over again.
Perhaps the comedian in Kiev will also eat his own tie.
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Firebird wrote:https://thesaker.is/bayraktar-saga-continued-more-preparations-for-war/
Interesting viewpoint....
Saker is Chicken Little of analysts, I wouldn't pay too much attention to him, he has been announcing war for years
Firebird wrote:...Perhaps the comedian in Kiev will also eat his own tie.
This is not a wild guess, it's inevitable in one form or another
Looks like even Germans are not too pleased with Kiev over drone use:
https://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/politik-ausland/kiewer-neonazis-kreml-wuetet-nach-einsatz-von-erdogan-drohnen-78075476.bild.html
(Oh and for the record, if it looks like I might be swiping posts from other forums it's probably because I am)
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Firebird wrote:Arrow wrote:If America sent tanks into St P burg and the people didn't fight back on their own would you say "oh Russia doesn't need St Pburg"?
.
OMGHowever, there is probably a big difference between St. Petersburg in Russia and Ukraine. What a comparison.No Ukraine means nothing to Russia, and since 91 it has been anti-Russian all the time. Ukraine is not an asset to Russia. Putting huge sums into Ukraine, which is anti-Russian and unstable, is a failed country, is the last thing Russia needs. Stop now with this great myth of Ukraine without which Russia cannot exist.
Currently its around 50:50, according to the usual geography. And it Russia took the fight to the Ukraine it would be 70:30.
Infact its only around 20% that are actually antiRussian - ie the Lvov garbage.
And Kiev is the Mother City of the Rus.
Thats from 900 years before St Pburg stopped being an empty swamp.
Would u have Russia vacate the 3 Caucuses too?
Russia could "exist" without Moscow, Sochi, Vvostok, but why allow it?
Why the **** should Russian people be chased out of Russian lands and leave Kiev, Kharkov, Odessa etc and move to the RF?
Thats not how people of a superpower nationality should be forced to act.
The Russian World is Russia, not Rwanda!
Back on your meds Firebird
You don't get it. Russia 'lost' the Ukraine not in 2014, nor even 2004, but in 1991, and since then there has been an ever decreasing return of value from that place.
They are not Russians any more than Americans are Englishmen. They've converted to the religion of the dollar and demanding freebies from everyone whether that's Brussels or Moscow.
And in 2014 did all these 'Russian lands' lift a finger to help the Donbass hold its own against the Kiev junta's army? No, in fact they provided volunteers and the services of their factories for the latter.
Let's say the Ukraine becomes 'pro-Russian' tommorow. OK, so then they'll be back to expecting massive discounts, subsidies from Russia, and a huge share of the investment and new industries as they grew accustomed to receiving during the Soviet-era. A republic with 1/6th the USSR's population, ended up with 1/3rd of its industries - imagine that. And that whole 1/3rd, of what was once the world's 3rd largest economy - has now all been lost. All been wasted, everything. At least the industries, institutes, etc... in Russia itself, while harmed by the collapse of the USSR, have gone back to serving Russia. Indirectly, the Soviet investments into Belarus, Kazakhstan and other republics serve Russia as well, as there are still strong ties between them and the Russian economy. Not so with the Ukraine.
All those military secrets too, all the blueprints, archived documents, schematics.. sold to the West for a quick dollar. No loyalty to their once allies and countrymen, they didn't give a sh*t. And this was way before any Maidan. Nothing held sacred either. The Ukraine went from venerating Red Army heroes to Nazi scumbags in what, a generation or two?
And going back to our scenario about the Ukraine turning "pro-Russian" again - all the while their elites will just be biding their time until the next window of opportunity, when they've squeezed out as much from Russia as they can (again), to join the 'democratic, prosperous' group of nations of Europe.
The only ones there with any guts are the Nazis and everyone else just meekly subscribes to what they say. Including that the Donbass region are a bunch of no-good separatists and traitors and should be shelled off the face of the Earth.
No, I'm sorry, we don't need a pro-Russian Ukraine. The only way it can work is that if the Ukraine is just annexed directly into Russia with no autonomy or special status or their recognition as a separate nationality. But I don't think that can work, the ship has already sailed - they've had their national consciousness fostered and developed all through the Soviet-era, with their own elites, state symbols, language in schools and everything else. And they love that stuff more than anything else - who am I to argue with them? There's nothing wrong with being a separate people but at that stage you have your own elites who are responsible for their own decisions, and the Ukrainian ones are deliciously retarded. If allowed to smooch off Russia again they won't strengthen Russia, but drive the country into the ground along with them.
So the other alternative is political maturity, and realism - which their elites also do not have, and won't have for a long time - and with that the conversation is over. Anyone from there who doesn't like living there, is free to come here.
Last edited by flamming_python on Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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PhSt- Posts : 1494
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Let's say the Ukraine becomes 'pro-Russian' tommorow. OK, so then they'll be back to expecting massive discounts, subsidies from Russia, and a huge share of the investment and new industries as they grew accustomed to receiving during the Soviet-era. A republic with 1/6th the USSR's population, ended up with 1/3rd of its industries - imagine that. And that whole 1/3rd, of what was once the world's 3rd largest economy - has now all been lost. All been wasted, everything. At least the industries, institutes, etc... in Russia itself, while harmed by the collapse of the USSR, have gone back to serving Russia. Indirectly, the Soviet investments into Belarus, Kazakhstan and other republics serve Russia as well, as there are still intimate ties with those things and the Russian economy. Not so with the Ukraine.
Once Ukraine is back in Russia's control, it would be rational to break it up into smaller oblasts, okrugs, and republics. This is the only way to shatter the artificial "Ukrainian" identity once and for all.
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PhSt wrote:
Let's say the Ukraine becomes 'pro-Russian' tommorow. OK, so then they'll be back to expecting massive discounts, subsidies from Russia, and a huge share of the investment and new industries as they grew accustomed to receiving during the Soviet-era. A republic with 1/6th the USSR's population, ended up with 1/3rd of its industries - imagine that. And that whole 1/3rd, of what was once the world's 3rd largest economy - has now all been lost. All been wasted, everything. At least the industries, institutes, etc... in Russia itself, while harmed by the collapse of the USSR, have gone back to serving Russia. Indirectly, the Soviet investments into Belarus, Kazakhstan and other republics serve Russia as well, as there are still intimate ties with those things and the Russian economy. Not so with the Ukraine.
Once Ukraine is back in Russia's control, it would be rational to break it up into smaller oblasts, okrugs, and republics. This is the only way to shatter the artificial "Ukrainian" identity once and for all.
It should decompose into parts before being brought back into the fold. The south and east have to secede and restore their identity as Novorussia. The western
trash should be excluded for all time. They can merge with Poland or something since they are a product of Polish occupation. The central or Kiev zone is more
complex since it has no identity other than the Soviet one and now tilts to the Polish-philic part.
Really, the best solution is for the population of this fake state to keep dropping. They have already fallen to under 35 million and keep shrinking.
This is why they don't conduct the census on any useful timescale. Russia is smeared as a disappearing state by hater fantasists but it
does regular census campaigns. That is because it is not disappearing and has nothing to hide.
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The rational thing would be to ignore it
Splitting them up into bits and pieces will just invite further accusations and resentment
Subsidizing some future "pro-Russian" government will just serve to enable and reward their elite's mentality
Their population dropping, them not conducting any censuses, and so on.. is simply not our problem or concern. Neither is anything else I listed
Russia has to keep weaving itself off of all Ukrainian dependence. Replacing the gas pipeline through there with Nord Stream 2 is really the last major piece of the puzzle. There are still some other minor things like the inability to substitute Motor-Sich fully, the peacekeeping mission in Pridnestrovie which can require Ukrainian territorial access, and some other things but really they're secondary.
Splitting them up into bits and pieces will just invite further accusations and resentment
Subsidizing some future "pro-Russian" government will just serve to enable and reward their elite's mentality
Their population dropping, them not conducting any censuses, and so on.. is simply not our problem or concern. Neither is anything else I listed
Russia has to keep weaving itself off of all Ukrainian dependence. Replacing the gas pipeline through there with Nord Stream 2 is really the last major piece of the puzzle. There are still some other minor things like the inability to substitute Motor-Sich fully, the peacekeeping mission in Pridnestrovie which can require Ukrainian territorial access, and some other things but really they're secondary.
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PhSt wrote:
Once Ukraine is back in Russia's control, it would be rational to break it up into smaller oblasts, okrugs, and republics. This is the only way to shatter the artificial "Ukrainian" identity once and for all.
And who would pay for that ?
I am not sure about your age and memory, so forgive me if I talk obvious, but I still remember the unification of Germany that happened in front of my eyes.
A 65+ mln biggest in Europe economy at it's full swing swallowed a 15+ mln GDR. East Germany was among the best-advanced economies of the whole Soviet block, provided with waste resources to establish living proof of the successful economic model. They owned advanced industry, science, education&health system. They owned good quality armored forces and security structures, low crime rates, good living standards, and every good infrastructure, including the well-developed marine sector, automotive industry, well advanced electronic sector. The precision industry used to be unmatched in the whole Soviet block, with brands known in the whole world, capable to withstand competition with western products.
Incorporating them costed Germany almost a bankruptcy, with HUGE assets needed to be allocated in order to bring the living standards to a similar level as it used to be in the western part. It is not even the case that those were substandard, those were only different. And that sole made the East Germans massively migrate within unified Germany, depopulating East Germany. It is 30 years after, and Germany is still struggling with it, with the beautiful places like the Rugia island populated by the pensioners mostly, without living industry&business other than a tourist. Correct me if I am wrong, my German friends, but West Germans still pay the "solidarity tax", right?
There is still a visible difference in the infrastructure, living standards, there are two electrical street lighting systems in Berlin itself, so after 30 years you can still distinguish if you are in West Berlin or East Berlin just by the light color and your shade on the ground.
Can you imagine that?
Now you are talking about incorporating by Russia a wasteland of the used-to-be industrial hub of the Soviet Union. With 30+ mln inhabitants, 1/3 of them being hostile. Living in conditions so hugely inferior to the Russian standards, that you can hardly imagine that. With corrupted political, juridical, and security systems. Devastated infrastructure, road system being the worst in the whole Europe, lower than Moldova standard at the moment.
How much one must hate Russia, to offer such a "gift"?
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To incorporate East Germany was so expensive because the whole economy was destroyed deliberatly because the western oligarchs didn´t want competition. That´s why there were 10 Mio. people without work who had to be paid by the state.
If the south-western regions (Ukraine) would be incorporated into Russia the state would use what is there = keep the factories open and let them do business under russian laws and rules. This means in a time frame of 5 years or so these regions would be catapulted from being No. 160 in the "doing business" ranking to No. 20 or so.
If the south-western regions (Ukraine) would be incorporated into Russia the state would use what is there = keep the factories open and let them do business under russian laws and rules. This means in a time frame of 5 years or so these regions would be catapulted from being No. 160 in the "doing business" ranking to No. 20 or so.
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Well, when I was visiting Rostock harbor on a business matter years ago, this was a story told me by the ex seaport authority member ...
In its last days of existence, GDR opened a brand new TEU terminal there, and a dry cold room for citrus.
Both of them were immediately closed after reunification because they "didn't have the required standards".
That was particularly funny, as the TEU terminal was built exactly the same way&equipment as the one in Lubeck, and the cold room was designed&build by the West Germans, too :-)
Never made a fact check to this story, but the guy was in charge there for years, so I guess he knew what is saying.
Still, I do not share your optimism toward Ukr incorporation.
In its last days of existence, GDR opened a brand new TEU terminal there, and a dry cold room for citrus.
Both of them were immediately closed after reunification because they "didn't have the required standards".
That was particularly funny, as the TEU terminal was built exactly the same way&equipment as the one in Lubeck, and the cold room was designed&build by the West Germans, too :-)
Never made a fact check to this story, but the guy was in charge there for years, so I guess he knew what is saying.
Still, I do not share your optimism toward Ukr incorporation.
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Flag of RussiaFlag of UkraineRussia will stop supplies of thermal coal to Ukraine, the Ministry of Economic Development said. The department explained this decision by the fact that Russia needs to meet its own needs amid growing demand.
No more Russian coal for Ukraine
No more Russian coal for Ukraine
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[quote="flamming_python"][quote="Firebird"]
And you're telling ME to get back on my meds?
Look there's too much armchair economist BS in this thread.
Russia federalised the Ukraine, then the decent parts can be absorbed... or kept as a Federation.
The Nazi part can be isolated and given a load of shit. Maybe a couple of Ru bases on it, but otherwise the junta's heartland can rot.. literally.
People here can't understand that the Ukraine isn't a democracy. Its a junta, controlled from Washington.
Putin has been quite blunt about that. Some of you are talking like a kidnap victim is the cause of the crime.
Which is plain daft.
Moving on, no one is expecting the Ukraine to become another Rublevka overnight... or indeed ever.
Others turned the place to shit, and even Ukrainians don't expect Russia to turn it into some sort of Monaco.
But what Russia CAN do is improve it a lot. Thats how modern day capitalism works. Finding low wage places for maxiumum return.
ANd much of this goes beyond money. Imagine China telling Americans "Oh you can't speak English anymore ... it must be Spanish or Native AMerican or something". Americans would tell China to **** itself in a millisecond. And its exactly the same with the Pukraine.
Arrow wrote:If America sent tanks into St P burg and the people didn't fight back on their own would you say "oh Russia doesn't need St Pburg"?
.
The only ones there with any guts are the Nazis and everyone else just meekly subscribes to what they say. .
And you're telling ME to get back on my meds?
Look there's too much armchair economist BS in this thread.
Russia federalised the Ukraine, then the decent parts can be absorbed... or kept as a Federation.
The Nazi part can be isolated and given a load of shit. Maybe a couple of Ru bases on it, but otherwise the junta's heartland can rot.. literally.
People here can't understand that the Ukraine isn't a democracy. Its a junta, controlled from Washington.
Putin has been quite blunt about that. Some of you are talking like a kidnap victim is the cause of the crime.
Which is plain daft.
Moving on, no one is expecting the Ukraine to become another Rublevka overnight... or indeed ever.
Others turned the place to shit, and even Ukrainians don't expect Russia to turn it into some sort of Monaco.
But what Russia CAN do is improve it a lot. Thats how modern day capitalism works. Finding low wage places for maxiumum return.
ANd much of this goes beyond money. Imagine China telling Americans "Oh you can't speak English anymore ... it must be Spanish or Native AMerican or something". Americans would tell China to **** itself in a millisecond. And its exactly the same with the Pukraine.
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Hole- Posts : 11132
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Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
ALAMO wrote:Well, when I was visiting Rostock harbor on a business matter years ago, this was a story told me by the ex seaport authority member ...
In its last days of existence, GDR opened a brand new TEU terminal there, and a dry cold room for citrus.
Both of them were immediately closed after reunification because they "didn't have the required standards".
That was particularly funny, as the TEU terminal was built exactly the same way&equipment as the one in Lubeck, and the cold room was designed&build by the West Germans, too :-)
Never made a fact check to this story, but the guy was in charge there for years, so I guess he knew what is saying.
Still, I do not share your optimism toward Ukr incorporation.
It would be very expensive but not backbraking for Russia as some people think. The main problem for the people and companies in that part of the world is the lawlessness and idiocracy of the ruling politicians/oligarchs. They are still were Russia was at the end of the 90´s. Add a little bit of sanity and order and these regions will grow double digit year after year.
kvs- Posts : 15876
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Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
The Donbass would be relatively easy to assimilate. It does not have the Ukr parasite oligarchs and already has a critical mass economy
that can hold its own. Other parts of Ukria would require massive welfare so I am not too keen on their incorporation even under
ideal conditions.
that can hold its own. Other parts of Ukria would require massive welfare so I am not too keen on their incorporation even under
ideal conditions.
JohninMK- Posts : 15669
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Join date : 2015-06-16
Location : England
Is Donbas still exporting coal to Ukraine via Russia, or is that the coal Russia has just stopped shipping?kvs wrote:The Donbass would be relatively easy to assimilate. It does not have the Ukr parasite oligarchs and already has a critical mass economy
that can hold its own. Other parts of Ukria would require massive welfare so I am not too keen on their incorporation even under
ideal conditions.
Does Ukraine still buy electricity from Russia?
kvs- Posts : 15876
Points : 16011
Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
JohninMK wrote:Is Donbas still exporting coal to Ukraine via Russia, or is that the coal Russia has just stopped shipping?kvs wrote:The Donbass would be relatively easy to assimilate. It does not have the Ukr parasite oligarchs and already has a critical mass economy
that can hold its own. Other parts of Ukria would require massive welfare so I am not too keen on their incorporation even under
ideal conditions.
Does Ukraine still buy electricity from Russia?
The Donbass still operates coal mines and it was the coal being directed to Ukria.
As for electricity, the Ukr electrical grid is still synchronized with the Russian one so they are still connected.
The Kiev regime was planning to fully decouple by 2023. I think that Ukria does not buy any electricity
since it has/had enough domestic generation capacity.
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par far- Posts : 3496
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Join date : 2014-06-26
I think the best thing(the absolute best thing) for Russia is to not interfere directly, give the Donbass forces enough support/equipment/intelligence to hold their own and push the UkroNazi's back, where they are forced to stop the shelling of Donbass and back across the contact line.
This is the absolute best thing for Russia.
The west is slowly killing it self(we can all see this), the gays, BLM(the fat black "professor" "saying that we must destroy white people"), the Woke nonsense, refugees, economic troubles, bad leadership and the bankers will slowly take care of the west.
Russia has the time on it's side. The west is going down and Russia is going up in all respects, militarily, socially and economically.
In the video below, it is discussed how western sanctions won't affect Russia as much as it would have in 2014, the commenter says that right now, western sanctions would hurt the west way more than it would hurt Russia. But as we have discussed above, Russia has the time on its side and west is slowly destroying itself.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making mistake.
This is the absolute best thing for Russia.
The west is slowly killing it self(we can all see this), the gays, BLM(the fat black "professor" "saying that we must destroy white people"), the Woke nonsense, refugees, economic troubles, bad leadership and the bankers will slowly take care of the west.
Russia has the time on it's side. The west is going down and Russia is going up in all respects, militarily, socially and economically.
In the video below, it is discussed how western sanctions won't affect Russia as much as it would have in 2014, the commenter says that right now, western sanctions would hurt the west way more than it would hurt Russia. But as we have discussed above, Russia has the time on its side and west is slowly destroying itself.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making mistake.
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ALAMO- Posts : 7529
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Join date : 2014-11-25
Hole wrote:
It would be very expensive but not backbraking for Russia as some people think. The main problem for the people and companies in that part of the world is the lawlessness and idiocracy of the ruling politicians/oligarchs. They are still were Russia was at the end of the 90´s. Add a little bit of sanity and order and these regions will grow double digit year after year.
They are much more than that (I mean 90s) my friend because there are already two grown-up generations who have not experienced anything else.
Ukraine and it's political elite is used to be subsidized by anyone, for anything.
I will repeat that again : the scale of Russian subsidies to the Ukr economy before 2014 was bigger than EU assets for Poland.
And what they did with it?
They are not used to do anything other than creating just another mass brothel on the maidan square.
This is something that someone who was not in the same country with them won't understand.
We, Poles, do. Anyone who knows history, remembers the Ukrainian atrocities, mutinies, and overall stand toward any civilized rule of order.
What they call "freedom" is nothing even close to it. It is just an opposition to the civilizational code.
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GarryB- Posts : 40578
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But what Russia CAN do is improve it a lot. Thats how modern day capitalism works. Finding low wage places for maxiumum return.
That is the modern western solution that destroyed their own middle classes and shifted the middle class down to the poverty spectrum... it is fantastic for the owners of companies who want to make stuff but don't want to have to pay for it to be made.
The Ukraine is broken and Russia is the enemy... neither of those things is actually a problem for Russia.
Still, I do not share your optimism toward Ukr incorporation.
I agree with you... absorbing east germany is still not properly complete... the scars and in some places the stitches are still visible...
And most importantly the east germans WANTED reunification and thought the west in general and west germany in particular would save them and fix all their problems, when in fact they treated them the same way most white european countries treat a colony... asset stripping and abuse... and the new natives become second class citizens.
Russia federalised the Ukraine, then the decent parts can be absorbed... or kept as a Federation.
The Nazi part can be isolated and given a load of shit. Maybe a couple of Ru bases on it, but otherwise the junta's heartland can rot.. literally.
You are making some huge assumptions here... I am not aware of any offer or request for the rebel eastern parts of the Ukraine to join Russia in any way... they might want autonomy, and to speak Russian , but no mention of actually joining the Russian Federation has been mentioned as far as I am aware...
People here can't understand that the Ukraine isn't a democracy. Its a junta, controlled from Washington.
America isn't a democracy either... it is a republic.
Some of you are talking like a kidnap victim is the cause of the crime.
Which is plain daft.
Which is your mistake... this is nothing like a kidnap.... this was a group of rats on a ship seeing a much bigger ship where food is thrown on the floor and nobody hunts freeloading rats as long as they serve a purpose... in this case a thorn in the side of Russia.
They were given offers from both ships captains and chose the ship they have been on for quite some time, but the other captain changed the deal and started a mutiny of the rats so they decided to jump ship completely.
They were free to choose and they ended up choosing the EU and US and it is destroying them and they don't care enough to do anything about it.
Moving on, no one is expecting the Ukraine to become another Rublevka overnight... or indeed ever.
Others turned the place to shit, and even Ukrainians don't expect Russia to turn it into some sort of Monaco.
But what Russia CAN do is improve it a lot.
The walls and cut off water ways are on the Ukraine side of the border... it is the Ukraine saying no to Russia, not the other way around... until that changes there is nothing to talk about... Russia can't help if that help is refused.... much more so when Russians in Russia need help too and don't try to kill Russians every chance they get around the world in conflicts.
Imagine China telling Americans "Oh you can't speak English anymore ... it must be Spanish or Native AMerican or something". Americans would tell China to **** itself in a millisecond. And its exactly the same with the Pukraine.
Not at all... it is Ukrainians telling fellow Ukrainians that Russian language cannot be used anymore... the Americans don't care.
As I mentioned before the Ukrainians rebelling against Kiev are not rebelling because they are pro Russia, they are rebelling because they don't want to learn to speak Ukrainian. They might accept Russian help but they don't consider themselves to be Russian.
I would have to rebel against a New Zealand government that demanded I stop speaking English and started speaking Maori, because I can't speak Maori.
It does not mean I am English and want England to come down here and take over... I would actually oppose that too... I just want to continue speaking the language I have spoken all my life, as has friends and family.
Russia can not really help the Ukraine as a country. If regions break off and want to trade with Russia then that is fine, both sides can grow and develop, but they don't need to become Russian citizens for that to happen.
It would be very expensive but not backbraking for Russia as some people think. The main problem for the people and companies in that part of the world is the lawlessness and idiocracy of the ruling politicians/oligarchs. They are still were Russia was at the end of the 90´s. Add a little bit of sanity and order and these regions will grow double digit year after year.
Possibly true but they will still be Ukrainians and not Russians and they might want much better relations with the EU and HATO than Russia might be happy with...
Russia has the time on it's side. The west is going down and Russia is going up in all respects, militarily, socially and economically.
Not just Russia... China, and India if they play their cards right and don't hitch their wagon too tightly to the US and the west.
India wants the investment the west gave China so India can replicate what China did, but what China did was only necessary in a western controlled US centric planet where everyone is pushed down to hold the US and the west up.... when a multipolar world takes effect any country can potentially do well and grow and develop...
In the video below, it is discussed how western sanctions won't affect Russia as much as it would have in 2014, the commenter says that right now, western sanctions would hurt the west way more than it would hurt Russia. But as we have discussed above, Russia has the time on its side and west is slowly destroying itself.
Previous sanctions have certainly hurt, but have also made Russia stronger and more independent to the point now where all the strings that could be pulled have been cut and all they can do is make demands... which is why Russia cut communications links with HATO... a nagging wife is one thing but a nagging woman who wont even let you shag her... ignore her completely.
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