The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

Krepost wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Sujoy wrote:Russia should simply take over Ukraine, it will send the right message to all the European countries. Basically the West wants to use one Slavic nation against the other. They want to see Slavs dead. That's both the long and short of it.

And these Slavic countries are more than happy to oblige. As long as their oligarchs keep their villas in southern France, their bank accounts in Switzerland and their budgets get money from the EU

How can you fix stupid? You can't, and it's not Russia's problem. In all these Czechia's, Poland's, Slovakia's young people are taught to thumb their nose up at Russia from an early age. All the history books and media paint Russia in the worst possible light, the Great Satan, the great oppressor. You should have seen the shit-storm on Twitter when Slovakia decided to buy the Sputnik vaccine. It was full of Slovak and Czech trolls talking about Novichok, Putin, Soviet occupation and how Russia can't possibly have come up with a vaccine by itself.
Maybe these are just paid trolls, who knows, but there are more of them than reasonable people commenting. And the reasonable people are all of the older generation, not the younger one.
There is no perspective for co-operation with such countries. You hardly have anyone from them coming from them to Russia, because they are convinced that Russia is a poor miserable hell-hole. You have more foreigners coming to Russia for tourism, doing business or living from France, Britain and Germany than you do from all the ex-Warsaw Pact put together. Funny that.
Unfortunately young people from Eastern Europe know nothing about us, nothing about the country nowadays, and don't speak the language. It's next to impossible to change the situation.

Russia should ignore all these countries, and do business, build ties with countries that are open to that. In Europe these countries are Hungary, Serbia, Belarus, and that's about it. Everyone else is either hostile or is not hostile but will let the Russophobe elites in the EU decide upon their relations with Russia for them as they themselves don't have enough sovereignty or solvency - like Bulgaria and Greece.

Which ultimately means that Russia should expand ties with the rest of the world outside Europe. Euro-centrism is a dead end for Russia in the 21st century, so is an orientation towards building ties with Slavic nations. Those Slavic nations have all bought into Gucci and McDonalds and desire nothing else.

Python,

Please overcome this defeatist attitude and mentality.
Difficulties and great challenges exist. But, nothing is lost forever.
All you need is to put huge efforts over a long period of time and everything will be taken back and maybe more.
A huge mental and educational "Operation Bagration" is needed to undo all the brainwashing damage done over the years.
Sometimes circumstances help. Sometimes your opponents make mistakes and pay for it.

There are still good numbers of still mentally sane and healthy thinking people in those places you mentioned. The aim is to slowly and gradually increase those numbers despite all the difficulties.
Yourself, you have excellent debating and explaining skills. And with your presence on forums like this one, you are already bringing a small contribution to the uphill battle.

The key phrases in your thesis, I have already highlighted

My attitude is not defeatist. I think on the basis of 2021, not 1921 and not 2121.

Why should Russia undertake this 'Operation Bagration'? And who there is asking for it?

When an oil company wishes to make a profit, does it exploit the hardest to drill, hardest to reach fields first, with no existing infrastructure and the lowest profit margins?
Of course not, else it wouldn't remain solvent for long

Similarly the Soviet military strategy against NATO. Did it focus on attacking the strongest most well-built defenses and opposing regiments? No, the idea was to across multiple points of the front-line, but where there is serious resistance - call off the advance, and on the contrary there where a break-through is achieved - flood with redeployed forces to exploit and expand.

It's the same for countries. They have limited resources. They can't fight an uphill battle on all fronts. All those handouts and subsidies to the Ukraine and now they're the most Russophobic country in Europe, and still feel entitled to Russian gas.

There are plenty of countries in the world that are on the contrary, coming to Russia with offers for partnership, whose population has no chip on their shoulder against Moscow and in fact is often positively disposed towards it. Take that huge effort, and invest it into these countries instead, it will bring far more dividends and more quickly.

The countries in Eastern Europe have to sort their own complexes and subservience to foreign capitals out. When they're ready, they can always turn to Moscow for constructive dialogue. But neither then, nor now, do I see any reason to make any herculean efforts.

higurashihougi wrote:https://mronline.org/2021/12/11/the-maidan-massacre-in-ukraine/?fbclid=IwAR28lZsGpqsOuCblNE2MtSTuyGbrPaZomPAEezXfkUKMaCFBrcRMr7Czr2c

The Maidan massacre in Ukraine: revelations from trials and investigations

Dozens of members and commanders from government sniper units testified at the trial as prosecution witnesses. Yet their testimony showed that their units were ordered to deploy to government-controlled areas near the Maidan in order to locate and neutralize snipers, who in turn killed or wounded the Berkut policemen. They testified that, after their arrival, mass shooting practically stopped, yet that they came under fire from Maidan-controlled buildings.

The government investigation had earlier determined that Yanukovych government snipers could be held responsible for the death of only a single Maidan protester. Meanwhile, two other demonstrators who had been nearby during his killing, testified that he, too, was shot from a Maidan-controlled building. Photos and forensic examinations by government experts revealed that he was shot in the back from a steep angle by a corroded bullet as he faced the government positions.

Yet despite the overwhelming evidence, the investigation ultimately denied that there were snipers in Maidan-controlled buildings. It is striking that, almost eight years after one of the best-documented cases of mass murder in history, nobody is convicted or under arrest for the Maidan massacre.

The real tragedy is, that it is something clear from the beginning, muted at the end.
This is the collapse.
Der Untergang, as Germans says.

flamming_python wrote:

Krepost wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Sujoy wrote:Russia should simply take over Ukraine, it will send the right message to all the European countries. Basically the West wants to use one Slavic nation against the other. They want to see Slavs dead. That's both the long and short of it.

And these Slavic countries are more than happy to oblige. As long as their oligarchs keep their villas in southern France, their bank accounts in Switzerland and their budgets get money from the EU

How can you fix stupid? You can't, and it's not Russia's problem. In all these Czechia's, Poland's, Slovakia's young people are taught to thumb their nose up at Russia from an early age. All the history books and media paint Russia in the worst possible light, the Great Satan, the great oppressor. You should have seen the shit-storm on Twitter when Slovakia decided to buy the Sputnik vaccine. It was full of Slovak and Czech trolls talking about Novichok, Putin, Soviet occupation and how Russia can't possibly have come up with a vaccine by itself.
Maybe these are just paid trolls, who knows, but there are more of them than reasonable people commenting. And the reasonable people are all of the older generation, not the younger one.
There is no perspective for co-operation with such countries. You hardly have anyone from them coming from them to Russia, because they are convinced that Russia is a poor miserable hell-hole. You have more foreigners coming to Russia for tourism, doing business or living from France, Britain and Germany than you do from all the ex-Warsaw Pact put together. Funny that.
Unfortunately young people from Eastern Europe know nothing about us, nothing about the country nowadays, and don't speak the language. It's next to impossible to change the situation.

Russia should ignore all these countries, and do business, build ties with countries that are open to that. In Europe these countries are Hungary, Serbia, Belarus, and that's about it. Everyone else is either hostile or is not hostile but will let the Russophobe elites in the EU decide upon their relations with Russia for them as they themselves don't have enough sovereignty or solvency - like Bulgaria and Greece.

Which ultimately means that Russia should expand ties with the rest of the world outside Europe. Euro-centrism is a dead end for Russia in the 21st century, so is an orientation towards building ties with Slavic nations. Those Slavic nations have all bought into Gucci and McDonalds and desire nothing else.

Python,

Please overcome this defeatist attitude and mentality.
Difficulties and great challenges exist. But, nothing is lost forever.
All you need is to put huge efforts over a long period of time and everything will be taken back and maybe more.
A huge mental and educational "Operation Bagration" is needed to undo all the brainwashing damage done over the years.
Sometimes circumstances help. Sometimes your opponents make mistakes and pay for it.

There are still good numbers of still mentally sane and healthy thinking people in those places you mentioned. The aim is to slowly and gradually increase those numbers despite all the difficulties.
Yourself, you have excellent debating and explaining skills. And with your presence on forums like this one, you are already bringing a small contribution to the uphill battle.

The key phrases in your thesis, I have already highlighted

My attitude is not defeatist. I think on the basis of 2021, not 1921 and not 2121.

Why should Russia undertake this 'Operation Bagration'? And who there is asking for it?

When an oil company wishes to make a profit, does it exploit the hardest to drill, hardest to reach fields first, with no existing infrastructure and the lowest profit margins?
Of course not, else it wouldn't remain solvent for long

Similarly the Soviet military strategy against NATO. Did it focus on attacking the strongest most well-built defenses and opposing regiments? No, the idea was to across multiple points of the front-line, but where there is serious resistance - call off the advance, and on the contrary there where a break-through is achieved - flood with redeployed forces to exploit and expand.

It's the same for countries. They have limited resources. They can't fight an uphill battle on all fronts. All those handouts and subsidies to the Ukraine and now they're the most Russophobic country in Europe, and still feel entitled to Russian gas.

There are plenty of countries in the world that are on the contrary, coming to Russia with offers for partnership, whose population has no chip on their shoulder against Moscow and in fact is often positively disposed towards it. Take that huge effort, and invest it into these countries instead, it will bring far more dividends and more quickly.

The countries in Eastern Europe have to sort their own complexes and subservience to foreign capitals out. When they're ready, they can always turn to Moscow for constructive dialogue. But neither then, nor now, do I see any reason to make any herculean efforts.

Seeeee....you just proved once again that you are excellent in debating and explaining your point of view.

Those countries who are open for partnership with Russia are the "low hanging fruits". Anyone can work with and invest with those (and they should).
What will set you apart is the more difficult countries that will be harder to crack and need more time. The same ones that took the West decades to poison their minds.
The fact that they are neighbors makes them even more important.
I like "Operation Bagration" and stand for it.

Krepost wrote:
Seeeee....you just proved once again that you are excellent in debating and explaining your point of view.

Those countries who are open for partnership with Russia are the "low hanging fruits". Anyone can work with and invest with those (and they should).
What will set you apart is the more difficult countries that will be harder to crack and need more time. The same ones that took the West decades to poison their minds.
The fact that they are neighbors makes them even more important.
I like "Operation Bagration" and stand for it.

I'm excellent in debating and explaining my point of view, my friend - because I am correct.

You're suggesting to try and endear yourself to a girl who considers you below her standards and is simply not interested

You can try lavishing attention, humour, gifts, showing off, whatever, but it will all be for naught. Even if you succeed in breaking the armour, she'll come back to ignoring you with a vengeance, as she remembers that yeah, in her mind she can do a lot better. As far as she's concerned she told you no, and you should deal with it.

I've been there, and I can tell you from life experience that it's just not worth it. Her attitude is not necessarily tied to her objective value, just her appraisal of her own value. In reality, there are plenty of other fish in the sea, and plenty of beautiful girls around the world who will be a lot more receptive to your advances. She's not the only one, quit your infatuation





What's more these girls in Eastern Europe also all have sugar daddies who pay very handsomely. Even if you switch one of them - they'll expect you to pay just as generously as the previous one. But you're a good looking guy, and you're looking for a partner - why would you settle on a **** buddy you constantly have to bank-roll?

flamming_python wrote:

Krepost wrote:
Seeeee....you just proved once again that you are excellent in debating and explaining your point of view.

Those countries who are open for partnership with Russia are the "low hanging fruits". Anyone can work with and invest with those (and they should).
What will set you apart is the more difficult countries that will be harder to crack and need more time. The same ones that took the West decades to poison their minds.
The fact that they are neighbors makes them even more important.
I like "Operation Bagration" and stand for it.

I'm excellent in debating and explaining my point of view, my friend - because I am correct.

You're suggesting to try and endear yourself to a girl who considers you below her standards and is simply not interested

You can try lavishing attention, humour, gifts, showing off, whatever, but it will all be for naught. Even if you succeed in breaking the armour, she'll come back to ignoring you with a vengeance, as she remembers that yeah, in her mind she can do a lot better. As far as she's concerned she told you no, and you should deal with it.

I've been there, and I can tell you from life experience that it's just not worth it. Her attitude is not necessarily tied to her objective value, just her appraisal of her own value. In reality, there are plenty of other fish in the sea, and plenty of beautiful girls around the world who will be a lot more receptive to your advances. She's not the only one, quit your infatuation





What's more these girls in Eastern Europe also all have sugar daddies who pay very handsomely. Even if you switch one of them - they'll expect you to pay just as generously as the previous one. But you're a good looking guy, and you're looking for a partner - why would you settle on a **** buddy you constantly have to bank-roll?

Hahaha, nice analogy.
But remember, each fruit or girl or whatever you take out of the lion's mouth is a gain for you and a loss for the lion. So, it counts double and it hurts the lion twice.

kvs wrote:As I have posted before, Russia was funneling over $100 billion US per year into Ukria before 2014.   The economy of Ukria is
in the process of disintegrating.   A few $3 billion US loans are not going to save it.   It probably needs $200 billion per year
for 10 years.   But that money is going to get siphoned by the parasites.   The same ones that are destroying Ukria as we
speak.  No, Russia has negative value from any occupation of Ukria.  It would be assuming all the liability without any of
the benefits.   The nazionalist losers would have a new mythology to excuse their utter failure.   Russia must make sure
that these vermin eat their own shit.  

Where did you get the $100bln a year from?
1/10th of that.
Still, a huge amount of money, especially if we consider the accumulation and the overall effect. Non existing.
To put it into a proper perspective, it is about the same size of subsidies that Poland received from the EU integration package.
Without any formal association, and to a hostile country, periodically, balancing on the edge of collapse and openly stealing the transited cargos.
Insane.

ALAMO wrote:

kvs wrote:As I have posted before, Russia was funneling over $100 billion US per year into Ukria before 2014.   The economy of Ukria is
in the process of disintegrating.   A few $3 billion US loans are not going to save it.   It probably needs $200 billion per year
for 10 years.   But that money is going to get siphoned by the parasites.   The same ones that are destroying Ukria as we
speak.  No, Russia has negative value from any occupation of Ukria.  It would be assuming all the liability without any of
the benefits.   The nazionalist losers would have a new mythology to excuse their utter failure.   Russia must make sure
that these vermin eat their own shit.  

Where did you get the $100bln a year from?
1/10th of that.
Still, a huge amount of money, especially if we consider the accumulation and the overall effect. Non existing.
To put it into a proper perspective, it is about the same size of subsidies that Poland received from the EU integration package.
Without any formal association, and to a hostile country, periodically, balancing on the edge of collapse and openly stealing the transited cargos.
Insane.

I have seen on tass years ago it was actually around $30B a year was wasted on Ukraine. Still no small amount.

The amount is directly from the Putin's letter to some EU member leaders, dated April 10th, 2014.
He put the number at 35.4 Bln $, including 17 bln of direct gas discount, and 18.4 bln the Russia withstand from take-or-pay contract execution. That covers the 2009-2013.

Russia is neither the worlds police, nor a charity centre to save the lost and the wayward.

If eastern europe wants to hate Russia then that is fine, there are plenty of countries that want to trade with Russia and would appreciate Russia not trying to "educate" them or control their economies so they don't trade with anyone else.

The US wants to win all of europe so it can punish and isolate Russia... so it can "win"... but really what it is doing is gathering up a group of countries that don't and can't think for themselves that believe most of what they are told like zombies.

Russias goals should be peace and stability on her borders and further afield, so that Russia can develop ties and grow and trade with other countries... if Czechs or Hungarians or Germans want to look down their noses at Russia and Russians... well why should Russia care... Russia should not waste time and money trying to convince eastern or western europe that Russia is OK and Russians are not all out to kill them in their beds.

The west has way more money to spend on that shit than Russia can afford to waste.

What Russia should do is do everything to make living in Russia cheaper and easier and more comfortable, helping the strong to achieve their goals but also helping the sick and the weak and the elderly.

There are plenty of countries out there who want to trade, why waste time on people who hate you, because the trade you offer is not controlling or subverting the other partner... you make on the deal and so do they.

Russia should accept the rejection they have been getting for the last 30 years from the west and start to find its own path forward that does not include good relations with the west... the only reason the west would start to be nice to Russia now is because they want to use you against China which they see now as being a bigger threat.

Friendship with the west... in the current form of the west doesn't lead Russia to any place they would want to go... they would just demand Russia adopt rules to allow food producers to do what they like to make more money despite killing their customers with fat and sugar and genetic modifications of foods and chemicals... and steroids in foods and insecticides...

kvs wrote:
Details matter.   Russian purchases of Ukrian exports are not something to be dismissed in this discussion.

Sure, but subsidizing would mean that they pay higher than could get from the competitive source.
Ukrainian industry, especially the one in the East, used to be complementary to the Russian.
Some things were hardly produced in Russia, for example, the Ukrainian share in the railroad suspension was about 80% for the Russian lorry industry.
So this would be a really clueless discussion, where anything can be proven in real, depending on the sources you will pick.
That is why I consider as much better to stick to hard data, and if you have them presented by the WWP, I suppose there is no highest level we can get.
Especially if we know the fact, that the number itself is very harsh commented in the both Ukr and the West, as overestimated bullshit.
Besides, check the proportions.
The whole Ukr export to Russia in 2013 was 15+ bln$, and contributed barely 23% of the whole Ukr export.
There is no space to subsidize it in the amount making the "100 bln" figure even close to possible.

How they managed to get a $125bln a year from a $15bln export (peaking to $20) would remain the mystery next to the inside of a black hole

kvs wrote:Link

All the discussion about how little Ukraine cost Russia is so much BS.   It was a freaking enormous leech from the Soviet period.

The narrative put out by Bzezhinsky and similar about how Russia cannot be great without Ukria is an intellectually insulting joke.

Ukraine is next to Poland, so clearly that was the obsession of a member of the lower Polish nobility like Zbigniew.

As I have already said, Zibi was constructing his thesis, when Ukrainian SSSR was populated by a peak of 52mln people. With an extremely intense invested industrial base, agriculture, education&infrastructure.
There is not a single joining point to today's reality.

No one wants "Ukraine". Lenin can keep it. But the regions of Odessa, Nikolayev, Dnjepro(and so on) or even Kharkiv could be brought back into the Federation.

What for?
Sentimental?
What is there, worth struggling with?

Just merge those states into novorussia and call it a day. Would be better for Russia overall.

Agree!
But that won't be RF.
That would be self-sustaining political entity, a de facto RF protectorate, enjoying economical and social ties with Russia, including citizenship for those who apply.
But not Russian Federation, with all the expectations about the living standards etc.
Crimea earned that investment, after 20+ years of struggling, several attempts to rejoin Russia, hundreds of people losing freedom, and ending up in Ukr jails for that.
But Donbas, Lugansk, Slawiansk, and the whole of Noworussia, used to be just a private playground of oligarchs earning money with heavy industry, oriented towards Russia.
Maybe Odessa would comply to the characteristics, but it can be nostalgia only ...

 or even Kharkiv could be brought back into the Federation.

They would have to separate it from Ukraine by force.  Putin is unlikely to choose to do so.More problems than benefits. And Putin calculates well.

Today Putin and Xi Jinping have video conference. They for sure made decisions regarding LDNR.

ALAMO wrote:What for?
Sentimental?
What is there, worth struggling with?

Land.
There is none left on the planet that does not belong to someone.
Land means:
- Agriculture
- Natural resources (minerals, fuels, water etc)
- Place to build factories and warehouses
- Place to build homes for people who will multiply and produce more workers, engineers, soldiers, scientists, athletes etc
- Place for parks and recreation
- Place to have wild nature
etc.

They don't Make more land anymore you know.