The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

Krepost wrote:

ALAMO wrote:What for?
Sentimental?
What is there, worth struggling with?

Land.
There is none left on the planet that does not belong to someone.
Land means:
- Agriculture
- Natural resources (minerals, fuels, water etc)
- Place to build factories and warehouses
- Place to build homes for people who will multiply and produce more workers, engineers, soldiers, scientists, athletes etc
- Place for parks and recreation
- Place to have wild nature
etc.

They don't Make more land anymore you know.

They don't

And Russia has plenty of it already

404 is only relevant as buffer zone now, specific conditions in it are irrelevant for it's utility

Well, you can´t (russian politicians) talk about the Russian World but let the people that are closest to you be under control of some western backed Nazi thugs. Odessa or Nikolayev are more russian then Kasan or Khabarovsk.

In the end it would be much cheaper, too. Because Russia would be back in control of the territory. That was the main problem of the peroid between 1991 and today. Russia still spend Billions in keeping these "countries" (including the central-asian "stans" and parts of the southern caucasus) afloat. Cheap energy. Investments in industry. Security guarantees. Cheap weapons (or even for free). But anytime some western country could come in, bribe a few politicians and build a military base or something else to anger Russia. And Russia couldn´t do anything against it because the "country" was independent. But Russia can´t stop the help either because this would create even more costs (refugees, even more wars, nuclear meltdowns).

Bring them back under control and the money will be spend inside Russia again.

Some people here keep complaining that the russian economy isn´t growing strong enough or that the central bank keeps the interest rates to high. Huge investments in the infrastucture of the new (rather old) regions would force the central bank to bring down the rates and that´s the way (inversting into infrastructure) China grew so rapidly after 2008. Pumping money into roads and railways and harbors will pay off later. As long as you control the region and don´t let some western stooge take it over.

It makes historical sense to integrate the Ukrainian regions with clear Russian roots in the RF, but doing it today would be a massive problem. They need to undergo a normalisation process, the effects of one century of acculturation are too big and it would still need to be seen if these regions will naturally revert to being and feeling essentially Russian. Forcing an integration based on the same principles used in the nineties and early XXI century would mean going back to a very uneconomical buying of "loyalty" which is today completely unnecessary.

PapaDragon wrote:

Krepost wrote:

ALAMO wrote:What for?
Sentimental?
What is there, worth struggling with?

Land.
There is none left on the planet that does not belong to someone.
Land means:
- Agriculture
- Natural resources (minerals, fuels, water etc)
- Place to build factories and warehouses
- Place to build homes for people who will multiply and produce more workers, engineers, soldiers, scientists, athletes etc
- Place for parks and recreation
- Place to have wild nature
etc.

They don't Make more land anymore you know.

They don't

And Russia has plenty of it already

404 is only relevant as buffer zone now, specific conditions in it are irrelevant for it's utility

You guys are forgetting that that there are still millions of pro-Russia people in Ukraine. Mostly in the South and East (Kharkov, Odessa, etc.).
We can not throw them under the bus and/or forget about them.
"Let them move to Russia" is not doable.
I want both the land and the people.
Let the Bandera-fans move to Galicia or further West.

There are fewer and fewer of them, and considering the overall situation for the last several years, applied citizenship change laws etc, most of those who were interested - could migrate any moment. Or have done that already.
In Novorussia, the number of Russian passports given to the population was merely a 500k in Spring of this year - and we don't have any more adequate data rather than a wish to double that number by the years' end.
If we consider the region as most Russia supportive one, and inhabited by +/- 4 mln undisputed citizens - that makes a barely 25% in the most optimistic scenario.
If we push the trigger on any side, let's say that there are more than 4mln (they state that 6), or the settled goal of 1 mln was not achieved ...
Not impressive after 2 years ...
No matter how heartless that might sound, the biggest pro-Russian sentiment exists among the older generation, that presents no economical asset other than some irrelevant purchase power, being pensioners.

ALAMO wrote:There are fewer and fewer of them, and considering the overall situation for the last several years, applied citizenship change laws etc, most of those who were interested - could migrate any moment. Or have done that already.
In Novorussia, the number of Russian passports given to the population was merely a 500k in Spring of this year - and we don't have any more adequate data rather than a wish to double that number by the years' end.
If we consider the region as most Russia supportive one, and inhabited by +/- 4 mln undisputed citizens - that makes a barely 25% in the most optimistic scenario.
If we push the trigger on any side, let's say that there are more than 4mln (they state that 6), or the settled goal of 1 mln was not achieved ...
Not impressive after 2 years ...
No matter how heartless that might sound, the biggest pro-Russian sentiment exists among the older generation, that presents no economical asset other than some irrelevant purchase power, being pensioners.

What is this delusion that people under 35 in Kherson or Odessa want to join Russia? They don't. They do not even have a memory of the USSR. They view themselves as Ukrainian - not the same frothing at the mouth Ukrainians as in Kiev or Lvov, but Ukrainian. In 1991 it would have made sense. Today, that ship has long since sailed.

That is why Russia does not need to set up a daycare for these tantrum babies. They can have their precious "Ukr" identity and
eventually learn how to "balakuvate na move". And keep dreaming about the endless gravy train of easy living as part of the EU, always
deferred a few years down the line.

Whatever failings Mercouris has in his analysis, he is light years ahead any mainstream western analyst. The western information space
is a bubble created by the fake stream media and the official talking heads. So called independent analysts based in universities and
think tanks all have to sing from the same choir sheet if they want to keep their jobs. The only way to see that this is a bubble of
misinformation is to have independent information sources such as family in Russia, personal experience there, and alternative sources
being actively suppressed on social media who are also in this direct contact category.

The western degeneration into a woke totalitarian toilet is just a phase transition from another totalitarian bubble that existed before.
But the previous one was at least more generous in affording the western citizenry some degree of freedom. Now you will be forced
to inject what is called a vaccine into your system every few months if you do not want to be sent to a concentration camp. Austria
and Greece are leading the way together with Australia. It is a matter of time before this is universal in the self-anointed "free world".

calripson wrote:

kvs wrote:Link

All the discussion about how little Ukraine cost Russia is so much BS.   It was a freaking enormous leech from the Soviet period.

The narrative put out by Bzezhinsky and similar about how Russia cannot be great without Ukria is an intellectually insulting joke.

Ukraine is next to Poland, so clearly that was the obsession of a member of the lower Polish nobility like Zbigniew.

Lower nobility are millions of people in Poland.

You think they all have the same opinion like Brzezinski?


http://michalw.narod.ru/index-Truth.html


Are you deranged?

NATO promises to keep expanding, despite Russian objections

https://www.rt.com/russia/543418-stoltenberg-nato-continue-expansion/

“NATO countries are already training Ukrainian troops and consulting with them,” he explained. “They are conducting joint exercises and providing military supplies and technology. The alliance’s support for Ukraine is not a threat to Russia.”

Stoltenberg added that a possible partnership with Ukraine would be the chief item on the agenda at the upcoming NATO summit in Madrid in June 2022. On the subject of whether the bloc would keep growing, he said, “NATO is continuing the process of expansion. We already took Montenegro and North Macedonia, regardless of Russia’s protests.” He promised that NATO would not look to compromise with Moscow, which has demanded that the bloc rethink a promise it made in 2008 to induct Ukraine and Georgia “in time.”

US could name Russia ‘state sponsor of terrorism’

https://www.rt.com/russia/543409-us-senators-blame-terrorism/

Eight Republican party legislators submitted the bill on Wednesday, naming it the GUARD Act, which stands for Guaranteeing Ukraine’s Autonomy by Reinforcing its Defense. The proposed legislation includes a range of measures designed to support Kiev, including authorizing $450 million in foreign military financing in 2022 and promising to designate Russia as a “state sponsor of terrorism” in the event of perceived aggression.

According to John Barrasso (R-Wyoming), one of the lawmakers introducing the bill, Russian President Vladimir Putin “is attempting to dominate and control Ukraine.” The senator said, “we cannot let this bold and dangerous behavior go unchecked. The United States and our allies must do more to deter Russia by increasing the costs of its aggression.”
Austria comments on use of Nord Stream 2 to pressure Russia READ MORE: Austria comments on use of Nord Stream 2 to pressure Russia

The bill also includes additional sanctions against Nord Stream 2, the newly constructed pipeline that will bring Russian gas to Europe through the Baltic Sea. Ukraine, which stands to lose billions of dollars in gas transit fees, has described the project as a security threat. But despite strenuous objections from Kiev and Washington, European leaders have indicated that the pipeline will begin operations as soon as it clears bureaucratic obstacles.

Germany reveals long delay for Russian gas pipeline certification

https://www.rt.com/russia/543402-nord-stream-not-certified/

The German Federal Network Agency, the Bundesnetzagentur, will not make a decision on the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline for at least another six months, the head of the governmental body revealed on Thursday.

The certification of the pipeline, which should have been completed in January 2022, was suspended in mid-November after the Bonn-based regulator insisted that Nord Stream 2 AG create a German subsidiary. The German Energy Ministry described the suspension as a regulatory issue and an interim step.

NATzO can thump its chest all it wants.   Russia is laying down the law and any offensive missile installations in Ukraine and likely in the Baltics as well
will get an active counter deployment of hypersonic nuclear missiles aimed at every U-ropean state.   Russia does not need to bomb the
installations like Israel bombs its neighbours.   It just needs hard offensive asset deployment.   The retards in Washington and Bruxelles
think that grabbing real estate gives them more security.  

Russia has already deployed Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad.  Next step is to replace them with nuclear tipped hypersonic upgrades.

But another effective approach is to never sell gas on the spot futures market.   U-rope is digging its own grave with the pathetic
attempt to coerce Gazprom to sell on the spot market.   And assorted retards are running around claiming that green energy will
replace Gazprom soon.  They must mean 20 years from now at the earliest.   It will be fun to watch these haters as they get less
and less natural gas from Russia as the long term contracts expire and the unelected clowns in Bruxelles dictate to the EU prison
of nations to not renew any long term contract.   Russia is clearly planning for this scenario as it is rapidly expanding its LNG export
capacity.   It will have the equivalent of its export volume to the EU in LNG form by 2030.   That LNG will not be trapped in the EU
market, it will be sailing the high seas to the highest bidder.    The next nine years are going to be really rough for NATzO EU-tards.

NATzO is hoping and praying that Russia takes the bait and starts some conflict with the empty cranium zombies in Ukraine and
elsewhere.   This ain't gonna happen and NATzO is too chicken shit to attack Russia directly.

ATLASCUB wrote:US could name Russia ‘state sponsor of terrorism’

Russia can retaliate by transferring a few dozen nuclear tipped ballistic missile to Iran.

flamming_python wrote:
They don't know what to do, do they

They're lost

Hence the more hysterical and ridiculous the decisions

There won't be any war. Russia doesn't have the economy, NATO doesn't have the military.

Indeed. War is a cheat. If you are losing the game, then just turn over the board.

Americans are in the thrall of their WWII experience. While the eastern front consumed countries and tens of millions of lives,
America was getting a massive GDP increase. So yanqui deciders are under the delusion that another conventional war in
Europe will shower them with riches. Of course, this time around they have to worry about getting glassed. So they plan
on using their bootlicks to do all the dying. That is pretty much the same thing as during WWII.

Too bad for the yanquis, but history will repeat as a farce.

RTN wrote:

flamming_python wrote:
They don't know what to do, do they

They're lost

Hence the more hysterical and ridiculous the decisions

There won't be any war. Russia doesn't have the economy, NATO doesn't have the military.

One of my favorite trolls is true, but ...
NATO lacks both the economy and the military.
You own perfectly nothing.
Enjoy fucking you up in your arse, as I suppose that you are a taxpayer in ANY the involved opposite countries.

GarryB wrote:

There won't be any war. Russia doesn't have the economy, NATO doesn't have the military.

Not having an economy or a military is no prevention of war... WWI happened because all those military powers wanted to test their strength and underestimated their enemy.... it happened again and again... Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan about 6 times...

If a war starts it will be Zelensky and Russia will crush them and the west will claim it is the invasion they have been worried about all this time and impose super sanctions, but Russia could really do nothing else... they would secure the Donbass and any other region the Kiev forces attacked... their C4IRSTAR is so much better now that HQs and comms centres in the Ukraine will likely get knocked out... hense HATO reports of schools and churches destroyed of course, but the Kiev forces will likely be beaten back by the rebels with Russia help and Russia will at most send peacekeepers and allow these Ukrainians to have a referendum.

Joining the Russian federation will not be an option... the choices will be negotiations with Kiev, or autonomy with an open border to Russia and of course they will vote for the latter and the west will bitch and moan and complain and get their panties in a knot but not really actually do anything worth a damn.

If there is no attack the stalemate will remain and Russia will open its borders to these regions who will trade openly with Russia and their economies will develop and progress in a way that the rest of the Ukraine wont... Ukrainians will move there and remain Ukrainians but with a future... elections in Kiev will lead to less hostile governments because the more hostile ones wont deliver anything useful for the people.

Of course in all of this the EU and US are fucking useless as per usual but we will be told it is all part of some master plan and somehow destroying the Ukraine is going to weaken Russia... somehow.

The British Empire started WW1 ... it wanted to kill two birds with one stone it was getting worried by two new states in Europe Germany & Serbia ... you see Britian had a policy that it had to have a larger navy than the next 7 nations combined (America carried on with that philosophy after WW2) you see the new Dreadnought class battleships made the pre dreadnought battleships obsolete and for every 3 dreadnoughts the British navy was getting Germany was building 2 and this posed a threat to the British Empire so London concocted a plan to draw Germany into a war so Britain could end the threat, back to Serbia ... London was worried about the rapid growth of Serbia and feared Serbia gaining a "Eye" (port) to the sea ... they saw Serbia for some reason as a potential threat to the British Empire in the Mediterranean (it was the British empire that proposed and created Yugoslavia in an attempt at containing Serbia after WW1)

London convinced Paris to help London put pressure on the Austrian Empire to annex Bosnia knowing full well that Serbia would respond and Austria would retaliate and that Russia would take sides with Serbia and Germany would side with Austria but the unexpected happened the German Kaiser asked the Austrian emperor not to attack Serbia instead give them a ultimatum instead but the Austrian Ultimatum was to harsh for Serbia to accept (Britain/London knew France and Russia had a treaty that if either side was attacked they would declare wart on the country attacking them  .... to Germany's horror Russia started sending troops to the German border (this was because troops were transported by trains and relied on timetables) and realised they had to attack France before France attack Germany from the west facing a war on two fronts ... Germany's only option was to attack France and defeat France before Russia could send the bulk of it's forces ... Britain already had a 170,000 strong BEF in France in participation of War as London believed the war would be over in months and both Germany and Serbia would be put in there place and Austria the patsies would cease to exist falling into London's trap

you see America had a similar plan with the British empire in the early 1930s to invade Canada to draw the British Empire into a war with America in North America in hope to depose the British Empire as the number 1 power and conquer Canada at the same time the plan was cancelled in 1936 with the rise of Hitler and German knowledge of the plan ... Hitler hoped who ever won was greatly weakened and that the Reich would dominate the world    

Churchill once said of Stalin that he sided with  1 devil to defeat another devil this coming from a man whose hands were drenched in the blood of millions of Africans and Indians and a Empire responsible for over 250 million deaths and the enslavement of 10s of millions of people including 100,000 scots sent as slaves to the British empire's colonies and remember who created concentration camps first it was the British empire

look at it like this had the British Empire had not coerced Austrian-Hungarian Empire to Annex Bosnia WW1 would not have happened or WW2, there would be no red October and soviet uprising led by Lenin, the Romanovs would not have been executed, Russia would not have given South West Russia to Ukraine, Russia would still have a Royal family and Western Europeans would not be afraid of Russia because there would be no communism and 25 to 30 million Russians would not have died in a war against Nazi Germany and her Allies, there would have been no cold war, and millions of Russians & Soviets would not have been persecuted under the Soviet Union .... there would have been no Warsaw pact or Cuban missile Crisis

Serbia no assassination of the heir to the Austrian throne so no war against Austria-Hungaria Empire, no Yugoslavia and most likely Republica Srbska incorporated into Serbia proper, no Tito and no large numbers of Albanian immigrants to Kosovo, so no invasion by nazi Germany in 1941 and no ethnic cleansing by the Croats killing up a million Orthodox Serbs and Yugoslav civil war and no loss of Kosovo

from a German and Austrian point of view no world war 1 no humiliation and no break up of there empires and they would still have Royal dynasties, no lost territories to the east for Germany and Germany most likely would have a population of over 110 million today, no rise of Hitler as Germany would not have been broken like what happened after WW1 where Germany was ripe for crackpots to try and take over that and Hitler would not have been badly injured which caused his mental instability, Hitler was actually a talented artist before WW1, and the crackpot history teacher Himmler would never would have seen power to commit his crimes against Jews and other minorities, there would have been no holocaust ... no wiping out of 50% of Europe's Jews and 75% of Europe's Gypsies as well as millions of German handicapped, disabled, political prisoners and those who criticised Hitler and his nazi henchmen.

From a Turkish/Ottoman point of View no break up of the Empire Palestine and Arabia would still be within it's rule so no Israel or Saudi Arabia so no middle east conflict

Britain, America and Canada no World War 1 or two to weaken the British empire but it's grip on Scotland would have greatly weakened as Britain needed those wars to keep UK united as Scottish Nationalism was on the rise since the late 19th century with the founding of the Labour party by Keir Hardie and Robert Cunninghame Graham which was essentially the original SNP number 1 of it's agenda was home rule for Scotland ... the main threat to the British Empire was from within from Irish and Scottish nationalists ... Robert Cunninghame Graham went on to found the SNP, there was another problem facing London

America ... America was not happy playing 2nd fiddle to the British empire America wanted to be top dog ... during WW1 American industry grew massively thanks to British money manufacturing ships, guns and munitions this money helped build up American manufacturing and America's wealth and it was able to put limits on naval sizes ... this greatly strengthened America and weakened/handicapped the British Empire it no longer had a navy 7 times bigger than the next 7 nations combined so without WW1 America 1919 would be no where as powerful or Rich and it's manufacturing base would not be as massive, and the American navy would have remained weak in the late 1920s America devised a plan to invade Canada to draw the British empire into war with America secretly in the early 1930s America built aerodromes across it's northern border with Canada and it only was halted due to the rise of Hitler ... that obstacle would not have been present in the 1930s (with no WW1) ... you see America was not just happy to dethrone the British empire America wanted to expand America into Canada.
one other biggie in regards to America WW1 was seen as the global spreading event of the Spanish flu that killed 50 to 75 million people world wide ... without WW1 The Spanish flu would have been confined to American shores as trans Atlantic and Trans pacific flights did not exist

either way by the end of the 1930s early 1940s the British empire would have ceased to exist as well as the break up of the UK .... but America would also be greatly weakened ... with a much smaller Navy than the British empire the American navy would have been pummelled and there coastal cities would have faced Naval bombardments .... Canada would have fallen in a land battle as the logistics of sending large numbers of troops to American continent would soon ending up bankrupting the British Empire and the British empire and Britain would just disintegrate withing 5 to 10 years American military, civilian and manufacturing around there coast would be devastating it would be a hollow victory for America

London has a lot to answer for it's actions has brought a century of endless wars and destabilisation of the globe mainly by America