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Not to mention the control surfaces that form the upper part of the intake that act like canards can also deflect far enough to completely cover the engine intakes anyway... you can see that when they are sitting on the ground.
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Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8
GarryB- Posts : 40443
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ahh yes that old trope again. it isnt worth debating them, but sometimes you have to. I understand. the f-18 one is particularly atrocious.
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GarryB- Posts : 40443
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The F-18... the fighter aircraft rejected by Tom Cruise and Hollywood...
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I hope these haven't been posted before. Ran into a stretch of these awesome pics thought I would post them anyway.
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Sujoy- Posts : 2407
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Analysis of the Su-57
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sepheronx- Posts : 8810
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Analysis by people who never flew it nor seen it.
Please remove.
Please remove.
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Isos
Isos- Posts : 11589
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The checkmate is just perfect. It reminds me the mig-21, does the job at low cost.
They need to speed up its development and production to get hundreds of them.
They need to speed up its development and production to get hundreds of them.
Tolstoy- Posts : 238
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For that export orders need to pick up. Else, economies of scale won't kick in.Isos wrote:The checkmate is just perfect. It reminds me the mig-21, does the job at low cost.
They need to speed up its development and production to get hundreds of them.
sepheronx- Posts : 8810
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Tolstoy wrote:For that export orders need to pick up. Else, economies of scale won't kick in.Isos wrote:The checkmate is just perfect. It reminds me the mig-21, does the job at low cost.
They need to speed up its development and production to get hundreds of them.
Economies of scale picks up regardless who orders it. If Russia decided to replace all jets with a mix of Su-57 and checkmate, while sharing common parts, guarantee it will be cheaper in long run.
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Throw in the Okhotnik and Grom drones and the parts will be even cheaper. 
GarryB- Posts : 40443
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When the Russians withdrew huge numbers of single engined fighters they didn't replace them all with larger fighters, so they are probably a bit light on the sort of aircraft frontal aviation would be using... essentially the MiG-29 should have replaced a lot of planes and been made in very large numbers but instead its numbers have diminished radically.
This means they could make a large number of single engined or twin engined lighter fighters that would be useful and not require any existing types to be removed to make room for them.
They would essentially be short range swing fighterbombers.... the equivalent of a mix of the MiG-21 and the MiG-27 or the MiG-21 and the Su-17.
The MiG-23 is essentially a longer ranged interceptor fighter and is being replaced by the Su-27/30/35.
It seems to be the case that stealthy aircraft will be more expensive to maintain than 4th gen aircraft because of their coatings and materials, but keeping a mix of 4th and 5th gen aircraft should allow them to keep operational costs to a reasonable level.
The suggested costs for the Su-75 seem to be better than for most western 4th gen fighters.... something the Gripen claims too, which suggests it is acheivable when the makers and customers think that is desirable.
This means they could make a large number of single engined or twin engined lighter fighters that would be useful and not require any existing types to be removed to make room for them.
They would essentially be short range swing fighterbombers.... the equivalent of a mix of the MiG-21 and the MiG-27 or the MiG-21 and the Su-17.
The MiG-23 is essentially a longer ranged interceptor fighter and is being replaced by the Su-27/30/35.
It seems to be the case that stealthy aircraft will be more expensive to maintain than 4th gen aircraft because of their coatings and materials, but keeping a mix of 4th and 5th gen aircraft should allow them to keep operational costs to a reasonable level.
The suggested costs for the Su-75 seem to be better than for most western 4th gen fighters.... something the Gripen claims too, which suggests it is acheivable when the makers and customers think that is desirable.
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Exactly what happens in this forum. Woke non resident Russian forum members who never got to touch an aircraft even with a barge pole and Indian frauds like you with a dozen accounts.sepheronx wrote:Analysis by people who never flew it nor seen it.
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RTN wrote:Exactly what happens in this forum. Woke non resident Russian forum members who never got to touch an aircraft even with a barge pole and Indian frauds like you with a dozen accounts.sepheronx wrote:Analysis by people who never flew it nor seen it.
If you want to have first hand experienced people with all kinds of military hardware, blueprints military experts and veterans of every single heroic war that was ever fought go to Youtube Comment section.
I have met there 31 year old Vietnam veterans, constantly Apache Pilots which are not even of legal age to drink and even some engineers who have build the M1 Abrams tank.
While there are a few who have served and some even with expertise and specialization like taddei, Vlad, Kysusha and probably some others.
A forum is a place for people to talk to about their interests, ideas and opinions. Most people do state their opinions as such while Youtube Video Analysis are often nothing else but propaganda that very often portray their opinions as some expert level knowledge and facts and above anyone to judge.
You are voluntary here and nobody forces you to believe anything you don't want to.
PS: Besides all that, this is the only place where I have seen people being allowed to talk freely without being censored or banned for their opinion. You are still here while on other forums I have been banned for simply stating facts like Ukraine is proxy war by NATO.
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Where is Vlad? Is he okay
Isos- Posts : 11589
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Arkanghelsk wrote:Where is Vlad? Is he okay
The admin ? He is gone from the forum. He had terrible health issues.
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Isos wrote:Arkanghelsk wrote:Where is Vlad? Is he okay
The admin ? He is gone from the forum. He had terrible health issues.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t8057-garryb-is-new-site-admin
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RTN wrote:Exactly what happens in this forum. Woke non resident Russian forum members who never got to touch an aircraft even with a barge pole and Indian frauds like you with a dozen accounts.sepheronx wrote:Analysis by people who never flew it nor seen it.
Pretty gross statement without any evidence.
I assume you make youtube videos then eh?
Werewolf wrote:RTN wrote:Exactly what happens in this forum. Woke non resident Russian forum members who never got to touch an aircraft even with a barge pole and Indian frauds like you with a dozen accounts.sepheronx wrote:Analysis by people who never flew it nor seen it.
If you want to have first hand experienced people with all kinds of military hardware, blueprints military experts and veterans of every single heroic war that was ever fought go to Youtube Comment section.
I have met there 31 year old Vietnam veterans, constantly Apache Pilots which are not even of legal age to drink and even some engineers who have build the M1 Abrams tank.
While there are a few who have served and some even with expertise and specialization like taddei, Vlad, Kysusha and probably some others.
A forum is a place for people to talk to about their interests, ideas and opinions. Most people do state their opinions as such while Youtube Video Analysis are often nothing else but propaganda that very often portray their opinions as some expert level knowledge and facts and above anyone to judge.
You are voluntary here and nobody forces you to believe anything you don't want to.
PS: Besides all that, this is the only place where I have seen people being allowed to talk freely without being censored or banned for their opinion. You are still here while on other forums I have been banned for simply stating facts like Ukraine is proxy war by NATO.
This requires some sentiment of acceptance from RTN. The guy has been here a long time but never came to the realization that he is generally hated and ignored for a good reason. Only reason I responded to him was because you guys do and I see his comment. He thinks I am Indian which he is so far from the truth that its rather hilarious. But he will never accept that. He also assumes I never touched or seen a plane. Seen and touched various of them. Never flew them or handled them. But then again, I am not the one creating youtube videos about them. Something he may not acknowledge or understand but since I am not the one making the claims that is said in the video, then it isn't up to me to prove anything yet he assumes (assume is an acronym for making an ass of you and me). He also assumes I got multiple accounts. Anyway, I will wager a bet with him that whoever made that video never saw, flew or even know what is actually wired to the Su-57. No experience or anything. Yet said youtuber provides a video about it. You see, there is one thing to talk about it. Another is making a video about it. Talking about it is simply debating, breaking down and figuring out. Youtube video's tend to be much more....absolute. They figure what they make a video about is correct but they regurgitate information handed to them. Not unlike the rest of us. We assume what the Su-57 has. So does the youtuber. But at least we can talk about it but as you pointed out, the comment section of youtube is the "professionals" just like the youtuber who uploaded the video. There is no debate because we aren't debating with the youtube creator unless its RTN and he feels that he got his anus stretched Goatse style because I disregarded his trash. If it is RTN's video, then he is a joke. But if he is just shilling it for sake of it, then that makes him even more of a joke than the creator of the youtube video. Actually, jokes on us cause its free advertising for his video's and people talk about it with the absence of the youtuber.
Nothing to debate really. Just regurgitation and garbage recycled. Maybe RTN likes drinking recycled toilet water. Same thing.
Youtube on the other hand, is good for political commentary, cat or video game video's, some entertainment and that's about it. When looking for technical facts for secret projects, its trash. Maybe make more sense if an Su-57 was smuggled out of the country and it was technical details being talked about by experts who have dissected it.
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Shoigu announced the completion of tests of air-to-air missiles for the Su-57
July 5, 2022, 14: 02
In 2022, tests should end and serial deliveries of medium-and short-range air-to-air missiles for the fifth-generation Su-57 fighter should begin. This was announced on Tuesday, July 5, by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.
"This year we plan to complete state tests of missiles and put the first serial batches into operation," the minister said at a conference call in Moscow.
The missiles, he stressed, " are designed to equip the modern Su-57 aircraft complex and other carriers." They will enable fighters to destroy small targets that use stealth technology.
"The use of new weapons will increase the combat effectiveness of carrier aircraft in an air standoff and increase the range of affected air targets, including small-sized ones and those made using stealth technology," the minister noted.
https://iz.ru/1359959/2022-07-05/shoigu-soobshchil-o-zavershenii-ispytanii-raket-vozdukh-vozdukh-dlia-su-57
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/15127145
July 5, 2022, 14: 02
In 2022, tests should end and serial deliveries of medium-and short-range air-to-air missiles for the fifth-generation Su-57 fighter should begin. This was announced on Tuesday, July 5, by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.
"This year we plan to complete state tests of missiles and put the first serial batches into operation," the minister said at a conference call in Moscow.
The missiles, he stressed, " are designed to equip the modern Su-57 aircraft complex and other carriers." They will enable fighters to destroy small targets that use stealth technology.
"The use of new weapons will increase the combat effectiveness of carrier aircraft in an air standoff and increase the range of affected air targets, including small-sized ones and those made using stealth technology," the minister noted.
https://iz.ru/1359959/2022-07-05/shoigu-soobshchil-o-zavershenii-ispytanii-raket-vozdukh-vozdukh-dlia-su-57
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/15127145
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Isos wrote:Not the same value. 10k$ in 1945 aren't worth 10k$ 70 years after.
The y-axis is logarithmic on the above graphic. So you miss the point. Inflation is supposed to lead
to a 100% price increase every 20 years. A rule of thumb based on over 100 years of price changes.
I am not seeing 2^(n/20) price behaviour in US jets.
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It is ridiculous how Russia is supposed to not understand stealth (low RCS) when it literally wrote the manual on it
that the US rushed to implement. People are clearly clueless when they think that a bit of an angle in a surface means
zero return to the detector. That is purely classical geometric optics which has no relevance for actual EM and quantum
mechanics. Every surface, no matter its angle, will scatter some of the incoming photons back to the source.
So the F-22 billboard sized rudders are indeed an inferiority. One that is vastly greater than some rivet dimples. These
morons think that stealth is all about smoothness of the surface. No it isn't. The dimples are not focusing centers that
amplify the incident signal.
Then we get to IR. No freaking aircraft has zero or even small IR signature. The 2D nacelles on the F-22 do not make
its exhaust exit at background atmospheric temperature. And there is no control over the heat generated by friction of
moving through the air. Jet design "experts" should know all about the SR-71 and its skin temperature. The F-22 is not
exempt from friction physics. Then we have the basic fact that no object is transparent to EM including IR bands. So
the F-22 is contrasting to the emissions from behind it when viewed from a detector vantage point. Image processing
is relevant for jet tracking even if the average fanboi has no clue about it.
I think it is clear why Sukhoi chose not to jettison maneuverability in favour of stealth. Detection avoidance is
fundamentally impossible. At best it is useful for surprise attack scenarios. This conforms to the needs of US colonial
marines military designed to attack 3rd world countries with totally inferior military capability.
that the US rushed to implement. People are clearly clueless when they think that a bit of an angle in a surface means
zero return to the detector. That is purely classical geometric optics which has no relevance for actual EM and quantum
mechanics. Every surface, no matter its angle, will scatter some of the incoming photons back to the source.
So the F-22 billboard sized rudders are indeed an inferiority. One that is vastly greater than some rivet dimples. These
morons think that stealth is all about smoothness of the surface. No it isn't. The dimples are not focusing centers that
amplify the incident signal.
Then we get to IR. No freaking aircraft has zero or even small IR signature. The 2D nacelles on the F-22 do not make
its exhaust exit at background atmospheric temperature. And there is no control over the heat generated by friction of
moving through the air. Jet design "experts" should know all about the SR-71 and its skin temperature. The F-22 is not
exempt from friction physics. Then we have the basic fact that no object is transparent to EM including IR bands. So
the F-22 is contrasting to the emissions from behind it when viewed from a detector vantage point. Image processing
is relevant for jet tracking even if the average fanboi has no clue about it.
I think it is clear why Sukhoi chose not to jettison maneuverability in favour of stealth. Detection avoidance is
fundamentally impossible. At best it is useful for surprise attack scenarios. This conforms to the needs of US colonial
marines military designed to attack 3rd world countries with totally inferior military capability.
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Stealth is not that hard to understand but it is an expensive technology.
Shapes need to be simple. Coating need to absorb radar waves (wood already is a good radar absorbant). And put everything inside the plane.
Shapes need to be simple. Coating need to absorb radar waves (wood already is a good radar absorbant). And put everything inside the plane.
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Shameless presstitutes have misled lots of folks to think they can eyeball RCS or determine the merit of some design by some trivial and mostly cosmetic elements like colour, presence of serrated edges and the like. Reality is that RCS study is one of the most difficult and obscure topics for any outsider, since it largely depends on parameters which are hidden to the eye (i.e. thickness and parameters of coatings and materials), added to the complex behaviour of EM (who tells me Maxwell equations' solutions under vastly different boundary conditions are simple and intuitive gets my applause) on different frequencies, polarizations and aspects and compounded by the operational concepts and trade-offs that underpin the design effort. Simulating the radar return of a shape as simple as a sphere by different methods results in wildly different values (by orders of magnitude actually), then imagine something as complex as a real aircraft under operational stress and wear. To give an idea, the pitot tubes of the F-22 alone have the frontal naked metal area to provide the supposed RCS return (-40 dBsm) of the whole plane... now B-21 should be -70 dBsm for a huge fuselage... 
In summary, most people have no fvcking clue what they talk when dealing with stealth and just embarrass themselves so badly when they state for instance that Su-57 has the RCS of an F-18E/F. It is just cringe worthy
Having said that, I assume the Su-57 should be pretty effective against isolated SAMs, which is the realistic best the stealth design of a tactical fighter can offer. Pretty much the same should be valid for US designs, only they are extremely keen on the intent of bullshitting the universe into believing they can simply disappear from advanced, multiband IADS and operate stand-in without EW support while using their wondrous LPI radars and directional data links operating on new laws of physics available exclusively to them
In summary, most people have no fvcking clue what they talk when dealing with stealth and just embarrass themselves so badly when they state for instance that Su-57 has the RCS of an F-18E/F. It is just cringe worthy
Having said that, I assume the Su-57 should be pretty effective against isolated SAMs, which is the realistic best the stealth design of a tactical fighter can offer. Pretty much the same should be valid for US designs, only they are extremely keen on the intent of bullshitting the universe into believing they can simply disappear from advanced, multiband IADS and operate stand-in without EW support while using their wondrous LPI radars and directional data links operating on new laws of physics available exclusively to them
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He thinks I am Indian which he is so far from the truth that its rather hilarious. But he will never accept that.
Yeah, I occasionally get accused of being a Russian expat because obviously you can't defend Russia if you have British heritage and live in the west... can't criticise the west either BTW because the west is just bloody perfect and cannot be criticised for anything.
It is ridiculous how Russia is supposed to not understand stealth (low RCS) when it literally wrote the manual on it
that the US rushed to implement.
The Soviets invented it and the US made it super expensive and made lots of billionaires from its commercialisation...
People are clearly clueless when they think that a bit of an angle in a surface means
zero return to the detector. That is purely classical geometric optics which has no relevance for actual EM and quantum
mechanics. Every surface, no matter its angle, will scatter some of the incoming photons back to the source.
Well it is as simple as normal light... when you change the angle of a surface the reflected light does not act like light with a mirror where a flat view of a mirror reflecting light back to the light source, but angle the mirror 45 degrees and the mirror disappears and the light is all redirected away from the light source if it is the only light source present.
Replace the mirror with a sheet of paper and the angle the paper is held to does not effect the light shining directly on it... you can see the paper from any angle because the light is reflected in all angles.
Stealth is not that hard to understand but it is an expensive technology.
Shapes need to be simple. Coating need to absorb radar waves (wood already is a good radar absorbant). And put everything inside the plane.
If you think of stealth as camouflage, then non stealthy 4th gen fighters were redcoats with bright shiny buttons and distinct profiles, Low observable, which many claim for Rafale and other types is a modern camouflage uniform, while stealth is a ghillie suit... a walking bush.
You don't want redcoats walking around the place, but equally you don't need snipers everywhere either... most of the time a decent camouflage suit is all you need... especially if you have external weapons or fuel.
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Shameless presstitutes have misled lots of folks to think they can eyeball RCS or determine the merit of some design by some trivial and mostly cosmetic elements like colour, presence of serrated edges and the like.
The real irony is that before that Soviet guy invented the specific mathematics for calculating RCS of a given surface the US so called stealth platforms were eyeball hit and miss type build a scale model and test it on a range with radars set up on wires that you can spin the model on to check actual RCS figures for and it was all guesswork and hit and miss stuff.
With the mathematics model created by that Soviet guy they could use computers to do the calculations and test thousands of shapes and designs very quickly and only make models of the most promising designs saving a lot of time and money.
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Anyone know what's going on here? Or what the story is behind this photo?
