Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

Scorpius wrote:

MOSCOW, August 30. /tass/. The fifth-generation Su-57 fighter strikes targets at a range of 120 km during its operation, in the near future it is expected to receive aircraft missiles that will be able to hit targets at a distance of up to 300 km, a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS.

"In its own Su-57 solves problems with high quality, effectively hits targets, its distinctive feature is low visibility. Today, the fighter is operating at a range of 120 km, in the near future they are waiting for the arrival of aviation missiles for high-speed air targets at a range of up to 300 km," the agency interlocutor said.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/18614165

Interesting, I thought R-37M was already introduced. This would mean that those long range kills for Su-57 were likely false.

Arrow wrote:The R-37M is already introduced. Su-35S and MiG-31BM are already equipped with them.

Yeah, but not on Su-57, apparently.

Scorpius wrote:

MOSCOW, August 30. /tass/. The fifth-generation Su-57 fighter strikes targets at a range of 120 km during its operation, in the near future it is expected to receive aircraft missiles that will be able to hit targets at a distance of up to 300 km, a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS.

"In its own Su-57 solves problems with high quality, effectively hits targets, its distinctive feature is low visibility. Today, the fighter is operating at a range of 120 km, in the near future they are waiting for the arrival of aviation missiles for high-speed air targets at a range of up to 300 km," the agency interlocutor said.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/18614165

in other words, it's the ramjet version of the K-77M, this is finally great news we received from these past 2 bad weeks.

Interesting, I thought R-37M was already introduced. This would mean that those long range kills for Su-57 were likely false.

I don't remember any claims of long range kills with the Su-57.

S-400 and MiG-31 yes, but not Su-57.

The R-37M was intended for use by all new Russian fighters and its introduction now is interesting because its replacement is on the way.

The anti radiation Kh-31 has an anti AWACS role which means it is already a ramjet powered air to air missile, but they are adapting the weapon to a scramjet motor which all things being equal should allow triple the flight speed and therefore much greater range for the same sized missile.

Arrow wrote:It's definitely the R-37M.

1. 120km to a 300km increase, 120km is like the most common range for any source talking about a R-77 missile on a simple google search.
2. The K-37M always existed or any of its variations with that range and has always existed as a carry on option for the Su-57 based on 100 or so articles(If I was to pretend to take your word for it that this is the 1st news article that talks about the Su-57 equipping the K-37 besides 100s of other articles that already told me this with that 300km range) . They seem to be treating this as something exclusive when such air to air missiles like this always existed as options for the Su-35 Su-57 and Mig-31.
3. K-37M is for aircrafts like AWACS, I dont think AWACS are classified as high-speed targets if I read that paragraph from Tass correctly.

Ramjets offering 50%+ more range than current propulsion methods is nothing out of the ordinary. Hermes is at 100km because the 1st stage offered it 80kms and the sustainer 2nd stage offered it 20kms. Since the sustainer stage will be replaced with a ramjet https://en.topwar.ru/176806-kakim-budet-giperzvukovoj-raketnyj-kompleks-klevok-d2.html 40 seconds going 7000km/hr would mean a 80+77.77= 157.77km range. Keep in mind the goal was also to bump the klevok-d2 with a warhead that weighs twice as much than using that weight for fuel. K-77M is at 193kms and more than likely a ramjet version of it will use the same warhead weight.

thegopnik wrote:

Arrow wrote:It's definitely the R-37M.

3. K-37M is for aircrafts like AWACS, I dont think AWACS are classified as high-speed targets if I read that paragraph from Tass correctly.
.

Its not only for AWACS. This missile can intercept pretty much anything like cruise missiles, fighters, helicopters etc. For target speed, even the old predecesor R-33 could intercept target flying at 3700 km/h, so I dont think it should be much problem for missile that is much newer.

3. K-37M is for aircrafts like AWACS, I dont think AWACS are classified as high-speed targets if I read that paragraph from Tass correctly.

The R-37M is designed to engage targets pulling up to 8g, so it is clearly designed to intercept a much wider range of targets than just large AWACS or strategic bomber or inflight refuelling or JSTARS type platforms.

Being ARH it can engage very low flying targets too including strike aircraft like the F-111 or F-15E or pretty much any modern fighter.

Ramjets offering 50%+ more range than current propulsion methods is nothing out of the ordinary.

Soviet medium range SAMs went from the rocket ramjet powered SA-6 to the rocket powered SA-11 and SA-17 and SA-25 because solid rocket fuel developed faster than ramjet design did, but with scramjets the top speed of missiles is massively increased without using a lot more fuel so where before the Kh-31 was managing mach 3 a scramjet model would triple that speed potentially at a similar fuel burn rate... triple its speed and you massively increase range performance.

Hermes is at 100km because the 1st stage offered it 80kms and the sustainer 2nd stage offered it 20kms. Since the sustainer stage will be replaced with a ramjet https://en.topwar.ru/176806-kakim-budet-giperzvukovoj-raketnyj-kompleks-klevok-d2.html 40 seconds going 7000km/hr would mean a 80+77.77= 157.77km range. Keep in mind the goal was also to bump the klevok-d2 with a warhead that weighs twice as much than using that weight for fuel. K-77M is at 193kms and more than likely a ramjet version of it will use the same warhead weight.

AFAIK there was no sustainer terminal phase... the missile just was a glider that fell on the target with terminal guidance for a direct hit.

The purpose of a ramjet sustainer motor was not to increase range, though that is an added benefit, the purpose of the sustainer is to allow powered flight so it can manouver and evade enemy air defence on its way in to hit the target making a target hit vastly more likely than with a munition that glided in like a guided bomb.

TOR and Pantsir are designed to hit gliding weapons so the new HERMES would allow your precision attacks to get through and hit the target more often... in the Ukraine such a missile would be used first to hit systems defending targets like TOR or IRS-T or whatever western system they have... once they are defeated then cheaper simpler weapons and drones can take out everything else.

For priority targets like artillery vehicles or radar or drone control stations or EW stations then Hermes will be very useful.

What I think would be also useful is those new Pantsir missiles with four mini missiles per original launch tube... at the moment they are four missiles with four solid rocket boosters, but imagine a version of Hermes (which is based on the same missile) that has one big solid rocket booster but you mount the four mini missiles for anti drone use... the ballistic rocket launches them in the direction of the threat and then the four missiles can separate and each go after a separate target... each missile could have an 6kg warhead each with a shaped charge and shrapnel lining to hit armour from above because the original missile has a 30kg warhead so four with 6kgs would be 24kgs in total... so the 6 missiles on a HERMES truck might be carrying 24 individual missiles to hit targets 50-100km away.

SovietAce wrote:

Arrow wrote:The R-37M is already introduced. Su-35S and MiG-31BM are already equipped with them.

Yeah, but not on Su-57, apparently.

Yeah, so those ultra-long range world record kills can be chalked up to the previous generation of Soviet-era aircraft. Imagine what the Su-57 is capable of...

That is the real take-away from this info tidbit.

Gomig-21 wrote:Su-57 Stinger, not Felon!  NATO Bastardos.    

Thats the 1st T-50 flight prototype, first flight in 2010. The real Su-57 is an altogether different and far more capable predator

Scorpius wrote:

MOSCOW, August 30. /tass/. The fifth-generation Su-57 fighter strikes targets at a range of 120 km during its operation, in the near future it is expected to receive aircraft missiles that will be able to hit targets at a distance of up to 300 km, a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS.

"In its own Su-57 solves problems with high quality, effectively hits targets, its distinctive feature is low visibility. Today, the fighter is operating at a range of 120 km, in the near future they are waiting for the arrival of aviation missiles for high-speed air targets at a range of up to 300 km," the agency interlocutor said.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/18614165

I assume they refer to internally carried weapons, R-77 vs a new izd. 810 which should be the new equivalent to R-37M for the bays. As far as I know Su-57 can already carry the R-37 externally. That should mean that its development is reaching its end

keywords they were talking about the R-77 making the Su-57 already operate at its current 120km range. Could have said 400km or 300km instead of 120kms if the K-37M always existed as a weapon option for the Su-57 or they could have just said in the article that it was a new modification of the K-37M for internal placements. Only reason it is a further modification based off the R-77 design is why bring up the 120kms in the 1st place of that missile instead of just saying that it's like the K-37M instead of the R-77 but with internal placement? K-37M was stated to have been in service since 2014 could have just said the Su-57 operates in 300kms (which it already did with the K-37M) instead of quoting the R-77 missile range 120kms.

Only reason you would want to bring up a R-77 design range instead of a R-37 design range which both existed as carry on options for the Su-57 is because of further modification of the R-77 instead of the R-37. This wasn't the last time Tass was acting vague in 2018 talking about a internally hypersonic air to ground missile until a few years later they gave the codename of that missile as gremlin.

keywords they were talking about the R-77 making the Su-57 already operate at its current 120km range. Could have said 400km or 300km instead of 120kms if the K-37M always existed as a weapon option for the Su-57 or they could have just said in the article that it was a new modification of the K-37M for internal placements.

The R-37M was designed to be compatible with all modern Russian fighters and all modern fighters have been designed to carry and use that weapon too, but that does not mean they have done the testing needed to make sure it works properly and to work out what areas of the flight envelope of the aircraft the missile can be carried and safely fired in so first of all the missile has been cleared for operational service so it is R-37M and not K-37M, and second, when it passes their tests and evaluation the Su-57 will be cleared to carry it operationally... until then it can only carry missiles it is cleared to carry.

Even when it becomes operational on the Su-57 it wont fly 400km like it does from the MiG-31 because it wont be getting launched at mach 2.5 plus speeds at 18km plus altitudes. The energy to accelerate and climb will reduce its top speed and therefore also its flight range.

K-37M was stated to have been in service since 2014 could have just said the Su-57 operates in 300kms (which it already did with the K-37M) instead of quoting the R-77 missile range 120kms.

K-37M was the missile before it was cleared for service. It is cleared for service on the Su-35 and Su-30 and MiG-31. Whether it is cleared for service for the Su-57 or not does not matter because it is a service missile so it is R-37M.

If it is not cleared for operational service then they will not say the Su-57 can reach targets at its 300km range until it is cleared for service.

From a high altitude supersonic launch (say mach 1.6 in dry thrust) even the R-77 will have good performance.

With the product 810 the claim is that its range is 1.6 to 9 times greater than the R-37M... which sounds dramatic but I suspect means the Product 810 uses a scramjet motor and is therefore able to throttle and use fuel more efficiently.

Got a question. Do you guys think that the middle wall between the two internal bays braces the aircraft and is a structural element? I was wondering if you guys think that middle barrier could be removed for a very long single bay? Maybe it could hold a cruise missile internally?

TMA1 wrote:Got a question. Do you guys think that the middle wall between the two internal bays braces the aircraft and is a structural element? I was wondering if you guys think that middle barrier could be removed for a very long single bay? Maybe it could hold a cruise missile internally?

No. If it could they would have already designed it this way.

They can already carry kh-69 which is very good. It's not a bomber that needs to carry kh-22. They actually need more missiles in the class of kh-69 or kh-35 because using Tupolevs and kh-101 for any mission is a waste as seen in Ukraine.

TMA1 wrote:Got a question. Do you guys think that the middle wall between the two internal bays braces the aircraft and is a structural element? I was wondering if you guys think that middle barrier could be removed for a very long single bay? Maybe it could hold a cruise missile internally?

Yes it is structural, and quite critical actually. It took a lot of work to get that bay concept working precisely because of this, that part of the airframe needs to handle the loads of the wings

The meteor missile has a planned 300km range with planned of 2027 assuming that doesnt get pushed back. I dont know about you guys but I think the Russians are godfathers of air breathing missile technology so having a 300km missile the same size as meteor shouldn't be that difficult

I would think any weapon that is so long it needs the length of both weapon bays would have a flight range that would not require a stealthy launch platform.

If you have an 8m to say 11m long missile to launch that is perhaps hypersonic then use a Tu-160 to carry them, or just carry them externally on most of their aircraft types like the Su-34 or Su-35 or Tu-22M3M or Tu-95.

The meteor missile has a planned 300km range with planned of 2027 assuming that doesnt get pushed back. I dont know about you guys but I think the Russians are godfathers of air breathing missile technology so having a 300km missile the same size as meteor shouldn't be that difficult

It is my understanding that the anti radiation version of the Kh-31 can hit radar emitting ground or air targets at extended ranges...

A newer scramjet model should be able to reach even further still.

thegopnik wrote:The meteor missile has a planned 300km range with planned of 2027 assuming that doesnt get pushed back. I dont know about you guys but I think the Russians are godfathers of air breathing missile technology so having a 300km missile the same size as meteor shouldn't be that difficult

The only picture of r-77M was two missiles carried under an su-57 and they seemed to be two different variants, one rocket and one ramjet.

A two pulse rocket engine can be just as good as a ramjet.

Meteor engines is quite complicated because it's a throtleble engine that can optimize its speed. Quite expensive. R-37M is a rocket engine and reach 350-400km and is less costly.

The important is that it has a high speed and long range. Instead of using super expensive tech, they can just make it 1m longer with additionnal fuel to give it more legs. R-77-1 with an add 1m body of fuel would reach 160km easily.

The reality however is that r-77-1 is becoming quite obsolate when it faces meteor. They need to hurry to finish r-77M.

Big_Gazza wrote:Thats the 1st T-50 flight prototype, first flight in 2010.  The real Su-57 is an altogether different and far more capable predator

That was the quickest pic I could find that showed the stinger (at least the original one) and offered a good look at it to make the point about the insulting and useless NATO designation. Good thing Sukhoi has already named the Checkmate, but watch those jerks still come up with their own stupid one.

The only picture of r-77M was two missiles carried under an su-57 and they seemed to be two different variants, one rocket and one ramjet.

Can you track that image down, I don't remember seeing a ramjet powered R-77 variant apart from the ancient images of the old ramjet model (which included a ground launched model SAM version).

A two pulse rocket engine can be just as good as a ramjet.

My understanding of the current R-77M model is that it is a three stage rocket motor missile... with high energy high thrust solid rocket propellent to accelerate the missile and allow a climb to thinner air followed immediately by a lower thrust much longer burn lower energy propellent for a cruise phase to maintain speed and altitude. The third stage solid rocket motor is ignited by the missile itself to give the missile energy during the terminal stage of the engagement when the target is located, IDd and locked.

In such a way it to a degree emulates a ramjet powered missile but without the flexibility of a real ramjet motor that can be throttled for efficiency.

The reality however is that r-77-1 is becoming quite obsolate when it faces meteor. They need to hurry to finish r-77M.

Totally disagree... if an Su-35 went into combat today with a Rafale it would probably be armed with similar weapons that it carries on patrol in Ukraine... namely two R-37s down the centreline for long range engagements able to outrange any other AA available anywhere at the moment, together with a couple of R-77-1s which would be good out to 100km or so and a couple of R-74M2s which have been recently revealed for the export market.

Add to that a Kh-31 in the anti radiation version to deal with enemy ground based radar threats and it is ready to hunt targets.

Against Rafales it might carry an extra two R-37s on the inner wing pylons and an extra pair of R-77s or maybe R-27ETs for longer range engagements, but Meteor wasn't even in full service when the R-37s were in service and it is the missile playing catchup.

More importantly the scramjet technology the Russians have with their anti ship/land attack missiles would transform a missile like Kh-31 by tripling its speed, which would magnify its flight range...

 These pics?

I assume that K-37M support had not been programmed into the Su-57 flight computer. That this news report means it will soon be able to fire the K-37M just like the Su-35S and MiG-31BM.

The K designation for the AAM is for when it is in testing and not yet in service.

The R-37M is in service so even if you are putting it on an aircraft that never used it before it is still R-37M.

Adding a new weapon to the Su-57 should just be like adding a new piece of hardware to a PC... load up the new drivers and new programmes the new hardware uses and then plug in the hardware and the system should be ready to use it just fine... not need for OS upgrades or major changes... the radar and systems would already have been designed with this missile in mind and vice versa.

It would be different if it was a US missile, but even then it would be a case of installing a driver so your plane knew what communication it would be having with the new missile and what information it needs and what features it can use with the other systems on the aircraft....

These pics?

I would want to be waiting for something a bit more convincing and clear than that...