Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

thegopnik wrote:

https://twitter.com/Sprinter99800/status/1703348111639187858

The primer looks pretty damn good on that plane.  Nice and smooth.

UAC transferred the next production aircraft Su-57 and Su-35S to the Russian Aerospace Forces
09.28.2023

Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant named after. Yu.A. Gagarin transferred to the United Aircraft Corporation the Russian Aerospace Forces the next serial fifth-generation Su-57 aircraft and 4++ generation Su-35S fighters, the UAC press service reported.

“The Russian Aerospace Forces received a batch of Su-57s as part of the plan for fulfilling the state defense order for the current year. The remaining fifth-generation combat vehicles, the delivery of which is planned for this year, are in the final assembly shop, and are also being tested at the flight test station, said UAC General Director Yuri Slyusar. “We also delivered the third batch of Su-35S this year. The aircraft of the next stage are in production at a high level of readiness.”

“Issues of meeting the needs of the Russian Armed Forces for reliable and highly efficient equipment can be resolved in a timely manner thanks to the work of the Coordination Council under the Government of the Russian Federation,” - noted Deputy Prime Minister - Head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov.

The new aircraft have undergone a full cycle of factory tests and have been tested in various operating modes by pilots of the Ministry of Defense.

https://aviation21.ru/oak-peredala-vks-rossii-ocherednye-serijnye-samolyoty-su-57-i-su-35s/

Why not 'aerocosmic forces'?  That's closer to the original Russian.  Also 'space' is a shortening of 'outer space'. Also think of 'Roscosmos' and 'cosmonaut'.

As for the Su-57 aircraft, the delivered batch has now become the first of their delivery this year and is a continuation of the implementation of the contract concluded in June 2019 by the Ministry of Defense of Russia with PAO "Company "Sukhoi" for the delivery to the Armed Forces of a total of 76 serial Su-57 fighters (including the first two separately contracted aircraft in 2018), with a contract term of 2027.

By the end of 2022, 11 serial Su-57 fighters were built under this contract, of which, after the loss of the main one on December 24, 2019 at the final stage of factory tests, the Russian Air Force received ten aircraft. In 2020-2021, KnAAZ handed over four Su-57 aircraft to the Russian Air Force, and in 2022 - six more (two in May and four in December). According to our estimation, in 2023 the VKS of Russia should be delivered a total of seven or eight Su-57 aircraft, the first batch of which has now been delivered.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4756536.html

George1 wrote:

As for the Su-57 aircraft, the delivered batch has now become the first of their delivery this year and is a continuation of the implementation of the contract concluded in June 2019 by the Ministry of Defense of Russia with PAO "Company "Sukhoi" for the delivery to the Armed Forces of a total of 76 serial Su-57 fighters (including the first two separately contracted aircraft in 2018), with a contract term of 2027.

By the end of 2022, 11 serial Su-57 fighters were built under this contract, of which, after the loss of the main one on December 24, 2019 at the final stage of factory tests, the Russian Air Force received ten aircraft. In 2020-2021, KnAAZ handed over four Su-57 aircraft to the Russian Air Force, and in 2022 - six more (two in May and four in December). According to our estimation, in 2023 the VKS of Russia should be delivered a total of seven or eight Su-57 aircraft, the first batch of which has now been delivered.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4756536.html

Unnamed Turkish sources say that a batch of four Su-57s and eight Su-35s was delivered yesterday.
https://t.me/infantmilitario/108002

Russian innovation and technological improvements installing a rear-facing radar and radiation warnings.  Gotta love it. I know most are used to it by now, but those all-moving thrust vector nozzles still impress the hell out of me.

Looks like crewman still has to get that rear starboard weapons bay door closed all the way.

Is there a PAK-DP/MiG-41 thread?   If so, please link me to it.  If not, please create it, post lots of goodies in it then link it to me.

Have we had it confirmed that the Su-57 is able to carry the R-37M internally?

BenVaserlan wrote:Have we had it confirmed that the Su-57 is able to carry the R-37M internally?

Considering the R-37M is shorter and lighter than the KH-59MK2 (see gif) then yes. It is able to carry it internally.

Besides length and weight, how about diameter?

BenVaserlan wrote:Besides length and weight, how about diameter?

What is the meaning of your question? Do you think that the developed new air-based missile for some reason will not match the dimensions of the internal compartment of the existing promising aircraft, which should form the basis of Russian aviation in the next 30 years?

Like Russian weapon developers are like, hey, let's make them incompatible with each other for fun!

So the R-37M comes in two versions? Range about 200 km and 300-400 km with an additional stage?

Not so much two versions, more like a solid rocket boosted version with an external solid rocket booster added to accelerate the missile to the flight speeds that the MiG-31 launches the missile at to restore the original flight range performance for slower aircraft like the MiG-35 and Su-35 and Su-57 and Su-75.

The solid rocket booster would be powerful enough to accelerate the missile to higher altitude and speed so when the missile fires its own rocket motor it can reach further and faster.

Would be interesting to see the performance boost the solid rocket booster stage would have to a missile launched from a MiG-31 at top speed and high altitude.

I rather suspect all their new air launched weapons are intended for internal carriage and launch... even their new box launchers for unguided rockets would be interesting for being fitted to a very thick winged CAS aircraft where they could be retracted into the wing structure and lowered for loading and firing so when in flight they offer zero drag and zero RCS increase... lower it... or raise it to launch the rockets and then retract it when done...

The grid fin rear control surfaces of the R-77 were designed to fold forward for internal weapon carriage long before any aircraft could take advantage of its design, with the main strakes rather small also for internal carriage.

Scorpius wrote:

BenVaserlan wrote:Besides length and weight, how about diameter?

What is the meaning of your question? Do you think that the developed new air-based missile for some reason will not match the dimensions of the internal compartment of the existing promising aircraft, which should form the basis of Russian aviation in the next 30 years?

Like Russian weapon developers are like, hey, let's make them incompatible with each other for fun!

I'm looking for FACTUAL CONFIRMATION (rather than valid reasoning) that a missile that COULD have been designed without thought to internal carriage by the Su-57 can indeed be carried internally by the Su-57.

BenVaserlan wrote:
I'm looking for FACTUAL CONFIRMATION (rather than valid reasoning) that a missile that COULD have been designed without thought to internal carriage by the Su-57 can indeed be carried internally by the Su-57.

The version of the missile Mig-31BM and Su-35S are currently using can't fit in main internal weapons bay of the Su-57 because its stabs and control surfaces are not foldable.
On the other hand, R-37M is based on the original R-37 that wasn't designed with intention to be stored internally, but the M version probably was with its slightly smaller dimensions. On the other hand we yet have to see the version of the missile with fully foldable aerodynamics surfaces, which doesn't mean that the missile is not existing.
The export version of the missile called RVV-BD has downgraded range of 200 km, and the Russian version has the range over 300 km without any detachable buster.

I'm looking for FACTUAL CONFIRMATION (rather than valid reasoning) that a missile that COULD have been designed without thought to internal carriage by the Su-57 can indeed be carried internally by the Su-57.

Both the R-77 and the R-37, which are of the same generation, were designed with internal weapons carriage in mind and both have catapults built into their standard launch pylons which throws the missile down and clear of the aircraft before the missile rocket motor is started to ensure good clearance of the aircraft.

Obviously critical for the R-37s for their belly mount positions in conformal launch positions, but also for R-77s.

The version of the missile Mig-31BM and Su-35S are currently using can't fit in main internal weapons bay of the Su-57 because its stabs and control surfaces are not foldable.

The upper fins are foldable on the R-37 for use in the conformal belly positions on the MiG-31.

The pneumatic ram that throws the missiles down for launch would be ideal for throwing the missile down and clear for launch... the folding version of the Kh-58 ARM (AS-11 based missile) is longer and wider and heavier than the R-37 and is intended for internal carriage by the Su-57, and the Su-57 and the S-70 and Su75 all have standard sized weapon bays of fixed size that has been known for 20 odd years... they designed the internal weapon bays around the weapons they wanted to carry and now they develop new weapons to fit the new weapon bays/launchers that they have.

On the other hand, R-37M is based on the original R-37 that wasn't designed with intention to be stored internally, but the M version probably was with its slightly smaller dimensions.

They have often mentioned an R-37M and it was always described as having a solid rocket booster that extends the range to 400km, which would always be necessary for slower aircraft to use like the Su-35 and Su-30 and MiG-35 and indeed the new stealthy types.

On the other hand we yet have to see the version of the missile with fully foldable aerodynamics surfaces, which doesn't mean that the missile is not existing.

They have a replacement called product 815 AFAIK, which might be scramjet powered.

I actually think S-350 missiles (the 60km and the 140km range models) would be excellent for air to air use as they are ARH and rather manouverable and with good flight range already and with small easy to fold control surfaces and already in mass production.

Yes, you are right... it was described as having 1.6 to 9 times the range of the R-37... which sounds astounding, but being a solid rocket motor propelled missile the performance of the R-37 highly depends on the altitude and speed it is fired with a low altitude low speed launch massively reducing the height and speed it can climb to which limits its coasting distance and therefore also its range.

With a rocket powered missile launched in the thick lower atmosphere at a low flight speed... say 800km/h then the first seconds of flight will have the rocket motor accelerating and climbing so its top speed will be rather lower than if it was launched at 20km altitude where the air is thin and already flying at a speed of mach 2.8, where the rocket would allow the missile to accelerate and climb to a much higher altitude and reach a much higher flight speed before coasting through the thin high altitude air to the target area before diving down on the target.

A scramjet powered missile can use its throttle because at low altitude it wont be able to accelerate to mach 6 because the drag will exceed the excess thrust, but at very high altitude it can be accelerated to much higher speeds so for a given period of time of flight it will cover much greater distances and then when it dives down use thrust to maintain speed and perform manouvers too...

Say the base model R-37 can reach a 300km target from a MiG-31 launch at speed and altitude then from 1,000m altitude and 600km/h then it is going to be rather shorter ranged... if we use the time 1.6 to times 9 ratio then we can probably estimate that at altitude and speed the new missile would reach 300 x 1.6 = 480km... both without solid rocket boosters, now a scramjet can get to speeds equivalent and even better than a rocket so coasting distance will be as good or much better for a fraction of the weight because you don't need to carry oxygen tanks to burn the fuel... so if we divide the 480km by 9 = you are looking at about 50km for a low slow launch.

Of course low slow launch would be very very unusual and likely an emergency thing to do because climbing and accelerating to launch massively increases the flight range, but what is shows is that even with a low altitude launch a scramjet missile can be very efficient with its fuel because it is the solid rocket R-37 with the 50km range at low and slow altitude launch while the new 810 with its scramjet motor will get 9 times the range performance by climbing to altitude and then cruising to the target 9 times further away at 400km+ from a low slow launch.

A low altitude launch of a big missile like R-37 might actually only reach 40km range, so a low altitude launch of the 810 with a scramjet powered motor might reach 360km range targets by climbing and using its fuel efficiently.

If you find that hard to believe think of it like a car... Solid rocket fuel for long range missiles is not all the same mixture and it is baked like a layer cake from the centre outwards, which means as it burns from the centre to the outside the remaining fuel supports the walls of the missile so you can make the missile walls thinner and lighter. The inner layer is for launch so it is large surface area fast burning high energy fuel for the missile to climb and accelerate to high speed, and then the next layer is slower burning fuel... slower burning fuel can burn for several minutes and that overcomes drag and maintains speed while the missile is coasting to the target area.

Some missiles have an extra section of fuel cut off from the rest... the new rocket powered R-77 has a third stage that can be started by the missile as it approaches the target so it has its engine running for extra energy as it attacks its target.

The point is that these layers are fixed so no matter what altitude or speed you are launching it from it all burns the same.

At low altitude the max flight speed of the missile with that shape and weight and level of thrust might only be mach 2, but launched from higher altitude at higher flight speed it might reach mach 4 so it covers a lot more ground for a given period of time and can travel much much further

In terms of a car it is like putting the accelerator pedal flat to the floor and leaving it there and the only way you can control speed is with the gear so you start in first gear to get moving and as you travel through the town you increase gear but you can't use top gear till you get to a motorway, but once you are on the motorway you can coast along in idle in top gear at a good high speed with a long straight road. Launching from high altitude and high speed is like being parked on the side of the road on the autobahn where you go from first through to top gear accelerating rapidly to a much higher speed which you can maintain with the idle and top gear so you will travel much much further and faster on a tank of petrol.

With a scramjet you can vary the throttle so you are not always using max fuel burn rate, at low altitude you might not even run the scramjet at full thrust because you might meet the missiles top speed at 50% thrust so you use 50% thrust so you burn half the fuel and climb to a higher altitude where you can fly faster and as you climb you can increase the throttle to move faster and of course as you fly faster you cover ground faster but also climb faster too... all while optimising the rate you are using up your fuel.

I have no evidence that 810 is scramjet powered, that is my own assumption based on the numbers given. I would think scramjet powered air to air missiles are perfectly logical and I think a scramjet powered upgrade of the Kh-31 with missiles with perhaps mach 9 instead of mach 3 and perhaps 700-800km range instead of 150-250km range would be rather potent upgraded missiles for the new Russian stealth fighters.

its either a modified r-37 or ramjet r-77.

They have categories of missile, the light short range AA-2, AA-8, AA-11 types, the medium range missiles often with different seeker options and intended for shooting down bombers originally but later used against fighters too, AA-3, AA-7, AA-10, and AA-12(R-77), and the heavy dedicated interceptor missiles, AA-6, AA-9, AA-13(R-37), and now the izd 810.

The izd 810 is an R-37 replacement.

AFAIK the ramjet powered R-77 was cancelled in favour of the triple rocket powered R-77 which has a high energy launch rocket fuel and a long burn low energy rocket fuel that maintains speed and counters drag and then a separate third stage that is started as the missile approaches the target to give energy and performance for the kill.

I rather suspect they switched the ramjet R-77 project to a scramjet R-77 project because that would offer a similar design and layout to a ramjet version but able to fly much much faster and therefore also likely much further too.

I think it is rather interesting, it might be a scramjet powered missile... I mentioned my reasoning in a post above, but I am wondering when they will move to multi sensor multipurpose missiles...

The Kh-38 carries a 250kg bomb to the target and has different versions with different homing heads, but I would think they could merge the Kh-31 replacement and an long range AAM replacement using scramjet technology for a missile that can do both perhaps?

I would think the old passive homing R-27s and R-27Es would be useful for firing at ground based radar or perhaps modified to home in on EM emissions to hit comms centres too. They have lofted flight profiles and decent range... up to 60km for the R-27s and 120km for the R-27E models.

Lovely. I think it is a new image of one of the earlier made production aircraft.