Russian special military operation in Ukraine #3

Urluber wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:How about stopping the invasion and going back to Russia?

Accept defeat and leave.

Better do it now than after three or ten years with thousands of more dead Russians.

It was a terrible idea to invade in the first place.

Come on.
There's no way Russia will loose this. It's just a question of why the deciding characters do not increase the airstrikes, missile strikes, artillery bombardment and so on. Are they really trusting in negotiations or just some strategy we do not understand yet. No one of us knows.

If Russia stopped the operation now it would be a total disaster. Possibly the last one. Then no one would be happy; neither the liberals nor the hardliners. And Russia still being cut off from the western systems. 90s would be nothing in comparison.
It could even lead to disarmament of Russia. Strip it off from nuclear weapons, that is. Of course "voluntarily", the western-installed guy (whoever that would be) in Kremlin would sign it in order to guarantee "the world community" Russia will never ever again threaten the world peace.
That will not happen. Russia has laid the demands on table; disarmament of Kievan forces and denazification. The mission will be fulfilled. Point of turning back has long been crossed.

That's true. No turning back now. Although I do hope somehow, that an agreement can be reached.

But Putin does need to leave after this. And stand trial eventually. Because all this shit is a massive crime, that is going to lead to misery for millions of people. Not by the hands of Russian soldiers - but then it doesn't matter, if it's Russian actions that destabilized the Ukraine to this wild extent.

flamming_python wrote:

Urluber wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:How about stopping the invasion and going back to Russia?

Accept defeat and leave.

Better do it now than after three or ten years with thousands of more dead Russians.

It was a terrible idea to invade in the first place.

Come on.
There's no way Russia will loose this. It's just a question of why the deciding characters do not increase the airstrikes, missile strikes, artillery bombardment and so on. Are they really trusting in negotiations or just some strategy we do not understand yet. No one of us knows.

If Russia stopped the operation now it would be a total disaster. Possibly the last one. Then no one would be happy; neither the liberals nor the hardliners. And Russia still being cut off from the western systems. 90s would be nothing in comparison.
It could even lead to disarmament of Russia. Strip it off from nuclear weapons, that is. Of course "voluntarily", the western-installed guy (whoever that would be) in Kremlin would sign it in order to guarantee "the world community" Russia will never ever again threaten the world peace.
That will not happen. Russia has laid the demands on table; disarmament of Kievan forces and denazification. The mission will be fulfilled. Point of turning back has long been crossed.

That's true. No turning back now. Although I do hope somehow, that an agreement can be reached.

But Putin does need to leave after this. And stand trial eventually. Because all this shit is a massive crime, that is going to lead to misery for millions of people. Not by the hands of Russian soldiers - but then it doesn't matter, if it's Russian actions that destabilized the Ukraine to this wild extent.

Lol good luck with that! 

We live in a new Russia, and in a new world, what's done is done theres no going back

Everyone will adjust and come to the new reality

Karl Haushofer wrote:

How do you define "victory"?

The core problem - the problem that Russians don't seem to understand - is that Ukrainians don't like Russia. They don't want to be integrated to Russia and don't want to be in union with Russia. They want to be with the West. It is their choice and they have a right to make that choice. Even if it hurts Russia. It is their own country.

The longer Russia stays there the more Ukrainian people will hate Russia. Some of here want Russia to start taking out key infrastructure of Ukraine like electricity and water pumping stations. For what? To make lives of Ukrainians a living misery?

Russia has a weak hand in Ukraine. The country was lost decades ago and it is too late to try to take it back. It can be taken back only by force, and the maintenance costs will be too high for Russia.

Germans didn't like Russia and didn't want to be part of Russia (which it never became of course). That did not stop Russia from putting an end to its inhumane and sick policies.

Victory here is defined by removal of rogue regime in Kiev, end of apartheid and guarantee of country never hosting offensive American missile systems.

PapaDragon wrote:

caveat emptor wrote:Guys, like it or not, wars getting lost often doesn't have much to do w fighting but with politics and strategy. If Putin, decided to inflict so much harm on Ru economy, at the time, they could get extra profits and use ot to invest back for a military incursion in Ukraine, then do it right and don't go in with a prayer. I would understand to give them 2-3 days to see reaction of Ukrainian gov and army. So far, they don't show willingness to cooperate or army to defect. Stop wasting young lifes and do it properly. At least, they have tools to do it. After full blown war of a week, i think Ukrainians will start to think differently.
Ukrainians know they will always lose in open area conflicts so they will always prefer hit and run amd urban fighting. Even Kadyrov commented om second point today.

Agreed with this, pussyfooting will get you nowhere and I said so way before this was even close to starting

Either do it right or don't do it at all

By softballing this Russia has only made the Ukrainians more determined and those occasional wins and ambushes by Ukrainian Military have only made Zelensky more feisty and less likely to agree to anything other than Russian pullout

Russia is on the clock now instead of Ukraine and they are already late

Any use of such massive force will horrify the Russian population to a point beyond which they're prepared to tolerate. Over a war they already were not asked about nor would have ever supported if put to vote. You seem to forget that millions upon millions of Russians have relatives in the Ukraine or are part Ukrainian.

My dad is from the Ukraine, albeit he's Jewish rather than Ukrainian as such. Right now I'm talking to an old friend who lives in Kiev, and advising her about what to do and how to act in this shit situation. It's personal for me, and it's personal for a lot of people.

It's also not going to win the propaganda and narrative battle. Right now there are people in the Kherson region complaining about the actions of the SBU who are turning up back in their towns and shooting up the place. People see that Russian forces are friendlier, and 'theirs' are on crack.

So I can see the dezombification process having some effect. But not nearly to the extent to change anything. Like I say, Putin needs to pull a bunny out of the hat right now. Otherwise he'd at maximum be left with a new Sumy People's Republic, Kharkov People's Republic, and Zaporozhie People's Republic, and with huge amounts of sanctions in exchange, the severing of all economic ties to Europe, and a decimated approval rating.

flamming_python wrote:

Urluber wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:How about stopping the invasion and going back to Russia?

Accept defeat and leave.

Better do it now than after three or ten years with thousands of more dead Russians.

It was a terrible idea to invade in the first place.

Come on.
There's no way Russia will loose this. It's just a question of why the deciding characters do not increase the airstrikes, missile strikes, artillery bombardment and so on. Are they really trusting in negotiations or just some strategy we do not understand yet. No one of us knows.

If Russia stopped the operation now it would be a total disaster. Possibly the last one. Then no one would be happy; neither the liberals nor the hardliners. And Russia still being cut off from the western systems. 90s would be nothing in comparison.
It could even lead to disarmament of Russia. Strip it off from nuclear weapons, that is. Of course "voluntarily", the western-installed guy (whoever that would be) in Kremlin would sign it in order to guarantee "the world community" Russia will never ever again threaten the world peace.
That will not happen. Russia has laid the demands on table; disarmament of Kievan forces and denazification. The mission will be fulfilled. Point of turning back has long been crossed.

That's true. No turning back now. Although I do hope somehow, that an agreement can be reached.

But Putin does need to leave after this. And stand trial eventually. Because all this shit is a massive crime, that is going to lead to misery for millions of people. Not by the hands of Russian soldiers - but then it doesn't matter, if it's Russian actions that destabilized the Ukraine to this wild extent.

Sure. Right after Bush, Blair, Harper, Cheney, Merkel, Sarkozy, etc all stand on trial for Afghanistan and Iraq, then we can talk. Otherwise, stop making yourself look fucking stupid. I know you are smarter than this.

Edit: should also mention Clinton and the ilk in Yugoslavia,
Somalia, Libya, Sudan, and the rest of the "uncivilized" world.

I assume you are a racist too right? They don't matter cause they aren't blond hair blue eyed European?

Humans can't judge all those people Mike. You can't even invent a good enough sanction. Only God and the Devil can take care of them.

Isos wrote:Humans can't judge all those people Mike. You can't even invent a good enough sanction. Only God and the Devil can take care of them.

I know, I'm just pointing out how stupid flaming is. Or at least hypocritical.

flamming_python wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

caveat emptor wrote:Guys, like it or not, wars getting lost often doesn't have much to do w fighting but with politics and strategy. If Putin, decided to inflict so much harm on Ru economy, at the time, they could get extra profits and use ot to invest back for a military incursion in Ukraine, then do it right and don't go in with a prayer. I would understand to give them 2-3 days to see reaction of Ukrainian gov and army. So far, they don't show willingness to cooperate or army to defect. Stop wasting young lifes and do it properly. At least, they have tools to do it. After full blown war of a week, i think Ukrainians will start to think differently.
Ukrainians know they will always lose in open area conflicts so they will always prefer hit and run amd urban fighting. Even Kadyrov commented om second point today.

Agreed with this, pussyfooting will get you nowhere and I said so way before this was even close to starting

Either do it right or don't do it at all

By softballing this Russia has only made the Ukrainians more determined and those occasional wins and ambushes by Ukrainian Military have only made Zelensky more feisty and less likely to agree to anything other than Russian pullout

Russia is on the clock now instead of Ukraine and they are already late

Any use of such massive force will horrify the Russian population to a point beyond which they're prepared to tolerate. Over a war they already were not asked about nor would have ever supported if put to vote. You seem to forget that millions upon millions of Russians have relatives in the Ukraine or are part Ukrainian.

My dad is from the Ukraine, albeit he's Jewish rather than Ukrainian as such. Right now I'm talking to an old friend who lives in Kiev, and advising her about what to do and how to act in this shit situation. It's personal for me, and it's personal for a lot of people.

It's also not going to win the propaganda and narrative battle. Right now there are people in the Kherson region complaining about the actions of the SBU who are turning up back in their towns and shooting up the place. People see that Russian forces are friendlier, and 'theirs' are on crack.

So I can see the dezombification process having some effect. But not nearly to the extent to change anything. Like I say, Putin needs to pull a bunny out of the hat right now. Otherwise he'd at maximum be left with a new Sumy People's Republic, Kharkov People's Republic, and Zaporozhie People's Republic, and with huge amounts of sanctions in exchange, the severing of all economic ties to Europe, and a decimated approval rating.

I'm not saying to start bombarding cities outright. But more serious and heavy handed approach toward Ukr army should be a must. Otherwise you are just protracting it. At the end of the day, more Ru soldiers killed is much worse for majority of Ru population than more Ukrainian soldiers
As PD we in Serbia made big strategical mistakes in Croatia in 1991-92 due to politicians and generals wrong approach ti while thing.
On account of Ukr and Ru "cousins", i don't see Mikhaylo Zabrodskyi, ex commander of 95 air assault brigade having any issues to killing Ru and DPLR soldiers in 2014-15. And he was serving in Ru army for 5-6 years.

EkErilaz wrote:Just in case i went to the store to stock up on essentials, jod, rice, salt, ibuprofen, vegerable oil, vitamines etc.

I still think NATO might be stupid enough to try something. the propaganda is so relentless and people are getting so crazy that soon the politicians do not have an option but to intervene.

F**k


Russia are still winning, and will win..
That is why i'm scared. I'm not sure if NATO can handle that. just imagine what will happen in the next set of elections all over europe.

NATO will be smashed just like the ukrainians are smashed.

I posted in the past often about this.
I did the logistics for the millitary in my last years.

NATO just has no shit left to fight with.
Logistics are almost completely handed out to civiian contractors.
Munitions are near-depleted and never gets refilled. Mostly its enough for an years worth of regular trainings.
Also weapon manufacturers can not keep up with demand.

Then there is the low-quality of troops. not enough battle-ready vehicles. and just absolutely imcompetent leadership.
There is just not enough to be even considered an NATO millitary that can behave as an actual combat force.

So yes, if NATO is dumb enough. i expect the NRF to be splattered to the four winds in 48 hours.
Also...there has to be somebody in NATO that says if they push Russia far enough, the Dragon in the East will activate and open up an second war in the pacific.
They will not go sit idly by and watch it all happen ,as they would be next.

Just like everyone here, i have no glass orb to predict the future.
I hope for the best, if not. Ill go outside, sit in my hot-tub with strong liquor and wait for the Nuke to land so i do not have to endure the fallout.
This NWO and NATO laying waste to the entire world has to stop.

miketheterrible wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Urluber wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:How about stopping the invasion and going back to Russia?

Accept defeat and leave.

Better do it now than after three or ten years with thousands of more dead Russians.

It was a terrible idea to invade in the first place.

Come on.
There's no way Russia will loose this. It's just a question of why the deciding characters do not increase the airstrikes, missile strikes, artillery bombardment and so on. Are they really trusting in negotiations or just some strategy we do not understand yet. No one of us knows.

If Russia stopped the operation now it would be a total disaster. Possibly the last one. Then no one would be happy; neither the liberals nor the hardliners. And Russia still being cut off from the western systems. 90s would be nothing in comparison.
It could even lead to disarmament of Russia. Strip it off from nuclear weapons, that is. Of course "voluntarily", the western-installed guy (whoever that would be) in Kremlin would sign it in order to guarantee "the world community" Russia will never ever again threaten the world peace.
That will not happen. Russia has laid the demands on table; disarmament of Kievan forces and denazification. The mission will be fulfilled. Point of turning back has long been crossed.

That's true. No turning back now. Although I do hope somehow, that an agreement can be reached.

But Putin does need to leave after this. And stand trial eventually. Because all this shit is a massive crime, that is going to lead to misery for millions of people. Not by the hands of Russian soldiers - but then it doesn't matter, if it's Russian actions that destabilized the Ukraine to this wild extent.

Sure. Right after Bush, Blair, Harper, Cheney, Merkel, Sarkozy, etc all stand on trial for Afghanistan and Iraq, then we can talk. Otherwise, stop making yourself look fucking stupid. I know you are smarter than this.

Edit: should also mention Clinton and the ilk in Yugoslavia,
Somalia, Libya, Sudan, and the rest of the "uncivilized" world.

I assume you are a racist too right? They don't matter cause they aren't blond hair blue eyed European?

Again, we don't need a 2nd USA in the world

Russia will only win by being better, and becoming an alternative. As naive as this all sounds, it is the case. It's a battle for the hearts and minds of the world.

Putin should be held accountable, and by whoever comes after him

Stalin was held accountable by Khrushchev after the former died, and it had nothing to do with the West.

Airbornewolf wrote:

EkErilaz wrote:Just in case i went to the store to stock up on essentials, jod, rice, salt, ibuprofen, vegerable oil, vitamines etc.

I still think NATO might be stupid enough to try something. the propaganda is so relentless and people are getting so crazy that soon the politicians do not have an option but to intervene.

F**k


Russia are still winning, and will win..
That is why i'm scared. I'm not sure if NATO can handle that. just imagine what will happen in the next set of elections all over europe.

NATO will be smashed just like the ukrainians are smashed.

I posted in the past often about this.
I did the logistics for the millitary in my last years.

NATO just has no shit left to fight with.
Logistics are almost completely handed out to civiian contractors.
Munitions are near-depleted and never gets refilled. Mostly its enough for an years worth of regular trainings.
Also weapon manufacturers can not keep up with demand.

Then there is the low-quality of troops. not enough battle-ready vehicles. and just absolutely imcompetent leadership.
There is just not enough to be even considered an NATO millitary that can behave as an actual combat force.

So yes, if NATO is dumb enough. i expect the NRF to be splattered to the four winds in 48 hours.
Also...there has to be somebody in NATO that says if they push Russia far enough, the Dragon in the East will activate and open up an second war in the pacific.
They will not go sit idly by and watch it all happen ,as they would be next.

Just like everyone here, i have no glass orb to predict the future.
I hope for the best, if not. Ill go outside, sit in my hot-tub with strong liquor and wait for the Nuke to land so i do not have to endure the fallout.
This NWO and NATO laying waste to the entire world has to stop.

Remember, you have actual experience and knowledge in these matters. But you are smart and understand, most people here are armchair generals (myself included as I rely on my father's experience, and a bit my own in contracting field), so they won't understand.

A lot of setbacks for the Russians today, It's honestly weird. I mean sure its impossible not to make a mistake in war lets see if they improve. Its something to make a mistake but its a not learning from it that makes it worse

flamming_python wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Urluber wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:How about stopping the invasion and going back to Russia?

Accept defeat and leave.

Better do it now than after three or ten years with thousands of more dead Russians.

It was a terrible idea to invade in the first place.

Come on.
There's no way Russia will loose this. It's just a question of why the deciding characters do not increase the airstrikes, missile strikes, artillery bombardment and so on. Are they really trusting in negotiations or just some strategy we do not understand yet. No one of us knows.

If Russia stopped the operation now it would be a total disaster. Possibly the last one. Then no one would be happy; neither the liberals nor the hardliners. And Russia still being cut off from the western systems. 90s would be nothing in comparison.
It could even lead to disarmament of Russia. Strip it off from nuclear weapons, that is. Of course "voluntarily", the western-installed guy (whoever that would be) in Kremlin would sign it in order to guarantee "the world community" Russia will never ever again threaten the world peace.
That will not happen. Russia has laid the demands on table; disarmament of Kievan forces and denazification. The mission will be fulfilled. Point of turning back has long been crossed.

That's true. No turning back now. Although I do hope somehow, that an agreement can be reached.

But Putin does need to leave after this. And stand trial eventually. Because all this shit is a massive crime, that is going to lead to misery for millions of people. Not by the hands of Russian soldiers - but then it doesn't matter, if it's Russian actions that destabilized the Ukraine to this wild extent.

Sure. Right after Bush, Blair, Harper, Cheney, Merkel, Sarkozy, etc all stand on trial for Afghanistan and Iraq, then we can talk. Otherwise, stop making yourself look fucking stupid. I know you are smarter than this.

Edit: should also mention Clinton and the ilk in Yugoslavia,
Somalia, Libya, Sudan, and the rest of the "uncivilized" world.

I assume you are a racist too right? They don't matter cause they aren't blond hair blue eyed European?

Again, we don't need a 2nd USA in the world

Russia will only win by being better, and becoming an alternative. As naive as this all sounds, it is the case. It's a battle for the hearts and minds of the world.

Putin should be held accountable, and by whoever comes after him

Stalin was held accountable by Khrushchev after the former died, and it had nothing to do with the West.

How old are you? Or are you a woman?

Niceties and being "better" when everyone around you is a wolf is only going to get you killed.  Yeah, Russia could have exercises this better by using sanctions and energy as a weapon first, but honestly their hands were tied.  The simple fact that Russia isn't flattening Ukraine like US did to half the world is already showing Russia is far better at human rights than the US is.

Seriously, go get your nails painted Sally. You don't belong talking about niceties. Maybe you can gossip about it at the salon along with your friends.

As for your Stalin comment - and see where the USSR is now? Lol.

You guys gotta stop warrying about "global anti-russian" "bad russian reputation" kinda things.
From my perspective in a small country in southeast asia, opinion toward Russia didn't change much,
because incident in Ukraine is, honestly, super far away from here.

People still perceive Russia as a brutal big bear as before.
And many people do understand why they decided to take on Ukraine. Some even say Ukraine is asking for it.

The media here simply a BS repeater of western MSM but airtime about the incident is quite little.

All in all, I would say average person here doesn't have a strong opinion against Russia's action. Unless they're already a Russia hater.

miketheterrible wrote:
Niceties and being "better" when everyone around you is a wolf is only going to get you killed.  Yeah, Russia could have exercises this better by using sanctions and energy as a weapon first, but honestly their hands were tied.  The simple fact that Russia isn't flattening Ukraine like US did to half the world is already showing Russia is far better at human rights than the US is.

Exactly

Not that I think it's enough, but I'm glad for that at least.

So it's true that one of the marvels of Soviet engineering, the An-225, was destroyed at Gostomel airport?
TASS is reporting this referring to Ukroboronprom.

zepia wrote:You guys gotta stop warrying about "global anti-russian" "bad russian reputation" kinda things.
From my perspective in a small country in southeast asia, opinion toward Russia didn't change much,
because incident in Ukraine is, honestly, super far away from here.

People still perceive Russia as a brutal big bear as before.
And many people do understand why they decided to take on Ukraine. Some even say Ukraine is asking for it.

The media here simply a BS repeater of western MSM but airtime about the incident is quite little.

All in all, I would say average person here doesn't have a strong opinion against Russia's action. Unless they're already a Russia hater.

Weakness, homosexuality and overall gayness perception is a western thing. Karl probably practices it wearing high heels. Many Russians (flaming, huh, his alias seems appropriate for this) wants that sweet sweet western acknowledgement so he thinks Big Bad Putin did wrong and no one else would do this. Completely ignoring the last 30 years entirely.

Some fucking people need to open a history book sometimes. Then again, it may been omitted since US prints most history books for others.

kvs wrote:

Isos wrote:One big looser of all of this is europe. Once Russia sanction them they will be in deepshit. And they did all of this for US and UK which left them. Now they are taking orders from them.

Blame Germany.  

Hey!

You´re right.

Airbornewolf wrote:Meanwhile, Russian troops doing some shopping in towns they just took over....
standing in line waiting to check-out.
telegram Source said the shops do not mind to take either hryvna or rubles.

Supporting local businesses! Compare that to the looting Americans in Iraq an Syria.

Arkanghelsk wrote:Russia has already checkmated NATO with nukes

They will resolve the situation how they want

By going nuclear Putin makes clear how far he will go

Sanctions were already known, they werent a surprise, Putin said sanctions coming anyway including SWIFT, it means nothing

He broke ties because he is overthrowing the world order,  microchips, payment systems,  trade will be replaced , more import substitution 

Russia is strong to be doing this, all Russia understands we have passed the point of no return

What's done is done

Putin isnt standing trial, he will be memorialized and beatified in ROC , 

The cult of Putin will replace that of Stalin

You´re absolutely right on sanctions. Without this "big" reason the west had found 20 smaller reasons in the next few months.

Airbornewolf wrote:

EkErilaz wrote:Just in case i went to the store to stock up on essentials, jod, rice, salt, ibuprofen, vegerable oil, vitamines etc.

I still think NATO might be stupid enough to try something. the propaganda is so relentless and people are getting so crazy that soon the politicians do not have an option but to intervene.

F**k


Russia are still winning, and will win..
That is why i'm scared. I'm not sure if NATO can handle that. just imagine what will happen in the next set of elections all over europe.

NATO will be smashed just like the ukrainians are smashed.

I posted in the past often about this.
I did the logistics for the millitary in my last years.

NATO just has no shit left to fight with.
Logistics are almost completely handed out to civiian contractors.
Munitions are near-depleted and never gets refilled. Mostly its enough for an years worth of regular trainings.
Also weapon manufacturers can not keep up with demand.

Then there is the low-quality of troops. not enough battle-ready vehicles. and just absolutely imcompetent leadership.
There is just not enough to be even considered an NATO millitary that can behave as an actual combat force.

So yes, if NATO is dumb enough. i expect the NRF to be splattered to the four winds in 48 hours.
Also...there has to be somebody in NATO that says if they push Russia far enough, the Dragon in the East will activate and open up an second war in the pacific.
They will not go sit idly by and watch it all happen ,as they would be next.

Just like everyone here, i have no glass orb to predict the future.
I hope for the best, if not. Ill go outside, sit in my hot-tub with strong liquor and wait for the Nuke to land so i do not have to endure the fallout.
This NWO and NATO laying waste to the entire world has to stop.

I totally agree it is a mirror image of the situation in the swedish military as well. But it is not the chiuauas in europe that will be a problem, it is the american eagle.
i'm afraid the will try to keep the war stand-off, tomahawks, Airpower etc to save face in the belife that russia will respond with the same. And that russia will retaliate and kick some teeth in, and since russia have said that the response will be nuclear.. that is what i believe they will do.

Guys get Telegram accounts.

Already some russian banks joined the chinese CIPS system. Little west: pay your oil and gas in RMB or Rubles. The oil dollar will be finished in a few years.

Map from Geroman:

meanwhile, in the real world:

Somebody bring out the polar planeometer here, but it seems like the Russians are sitting on 3 Crimeas worth of territory - 100 km^2 more or less (excluding Donbass and Crimea itself of course).

Someone mentioned that they only are using a 1st echelon of 70k dudes - if this is remotely true, then this tempo is even more insane.
Those suicidal thunder runs with light vehicles now makes some sense - the whole thing is a huge recon by force.

i think the idea is to hit as much settlements as possible - ascertain the level of hostilities, and generally just keep on advancing until they outpace their logistics.

Leave the fighting to follow on forces who are bringing in the heavy guns and armor.

Speed and information of the utmost.

There are a lot of high profile hiccups here and there but we're now seeing the pay off here:

Total kotel-ing the 3 main centres of Ukrainian resistantce - Kharkiv, Mariupol and finally Kiev.