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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12

    RTN
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    Post  RTN Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:OSA and the AK-630s are for sea skimming threats... and were designed and intended from the outset for that job
    Osas are bad at intercepting and disabling subsonic, sea-skimming targets. On April 16, 1987, an anti-air / missile interception exercise ended in disaster when Musson, a Nanuchka-class small missile boat got hit by an RM-15M target practice missile.

    Musson used the same 'short-range' missile-based air defense system that Moskva uses, a 9K33 Osa. Musson tried to intercept the target missile. While sources vary, they either hit or the two missiles launched by Musson missed and the target missile hit the ship. The entire layered air defense failed, specifically the S-300F system that failed to intercept the missile before it adopted a sea skimming trajectory.


    Last edited by RTN on Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Isos Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:41 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:

    Does anyone know why su24 did not make an appearance?

    They aren't using anything. No drones, no air force, no artillery. They seem to make war with kalibr and iskanders.

    I was expecting to see thousands of Lancet suicide drones and  lot of krasnopol guided shells which is the way to fight such small groups. But not, they send t-80s against defensive positions where there are good atgm really nicely hidden in bushes and forest.

    The hunt for AD is also very poor. No nasty tactics to hunt them like israeli do. Ukrainian aren't a conventional army anymore. They need to adapt or they will loose even more.

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    Post  Mir Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:42 pm

    RTN wrote:
    To understand that blind spot on Moskva, compare to Aegis cruisers.....they have their phased array radar plate in four directions, covering 360 degrees. Moskva had only one phased array radar, on a pivoting base, covering only one sector, leaving a blind spot. Fiberglass radome at stern of Moskva is for the phased array radar. Phased array radars are incredibly expensive but the computers needed to run them are GARGANTUALLY expensive. Russia did the cheap solution, a phased array radar that points into direction of threat.

    The Slava class cruisers were designed and constructed a good couple years before the Ticonderogas were conceived. At that time phased array radars were very rare and hugely expensive. It was so expensive that the US toiled with the idea of building 5 Modified Virginia nuclear cruisers but dropped the idea in favour of the Ticonderogas, which became the first warships with such radars. Even then they had major problems in supplying the Aegis due to huge cost overruns and supply issues. At that time the Soviets had a couple phased array radars in space already and the Mig-31 became the first fighter aircraft fitted with such a radar.

    Nowadays most major navies have similar/identical systems - Russia included.

    Keep in mind tahat the Slavas were actually an alternative and cheaper design in case the Kirovs proved to be a failure so it had it's limitations and that included air defense systems, but overall the Slavas proved to be very reliable and capable ships.

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    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:47 pm

    That helicopter seems to also carry Tank rounds.
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:52 pm

    It is quite possible that the Moskva was Torpedoed by a NATO submarine, either an SSK or an SSN.
    And now NATO itself is spreading this fake news of Ukrainian cruise missiles backed by Turkish drones sinking the Moskva.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:00 pm

    There are no NATO submarines in the black sea

    NATO does not have SSK there , only turkish and they are known when they are at port or out at sea

    A nation cannot enter the black sea submerged, but must enter surfaced according to Montreux convention,

    Even then the straits are closed and Turkey fulfills its role as guarantor of the convention

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    Post  Erk Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:02 pm

    Sujoy wrote:It is quite possible that the Moskva was Torpedoed by a NATO submarine, either an SSK or an SSN.
    And now NATO itself is spreading this fake news of Ukrainian cruise missiles backed by Turkish drones sinking the Moskva.
    Anything is possible, however a NATO torpedo is improbable. Why risk WWW III by attacking Russia directly?
    NATO have publicly stated they are not going to engage Russia directly, that's why there is a proxy war in Ukraine going on.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:03 pm

    The most reliable course of event are damage by mine

    Or sabotage by crewmember

    The fire on deck suggests sabotage however

    Neptun would be seen by all kinds of radar and surveillance

    The US would provide images as well as it is keen to show this to the world

    As of now it doubles down on its own course of events although without proof

    So sabotage is most likely

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:03 pm

    Erk wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:It is quite possible that the Moskva was Torpedoed by a NATO submarine, either an SSK or an SSN.
    And now NATO itself is spreading this fake news of Ukrainian cruise missiles backed by Turkish drones sinking the Moskva.
    Anything is possible, however a NATO torpedo is improbable. Why risk WWW III by attacking Russia directly?
    NATO have publicly stated they are not going to engage Russia directly, that's why there is a proxy war in Ukraine going on.

    There are no NATO subs in black sea except turks and they are guaranteeing the Montreux convention and host peace talks

    They are not involved in aggression against Russia

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    Post  Ned86 Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:04 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:

    Does anyone know why su24 did not make an appearance?

    They aren't using anything. No drones, no air force, no artillery. They seem to make war with kalibr and iskanders.

    I was expecting to see thousands of Lancet suicide drones and  lot of krasnopol guided shells which is the way to fight such small groups. But not, they send t-80s against defensive positions where there are good atgm really nicely hidden in bushes and forest.

    The hunt for AD is also very poor. No nasty tactics to hunt them like israeli do. Ukrainian aren't a conventional army anymore. They need to adapt or they will loose even more.

    They do use drones as you can see many combat videos recorded by drones.
    Also, Russian Air force have been flying actively with Su-35, Su-34 and Su-25..more recently Tu-22M3.
    Not to mention Ka-52, Mi-28 and Mi-24/35.

    Also, they are using guided artillery (krasnopol) as well as combat drones.
    Of course Cruise missiles and Iskanders are used for big targets because they make a lot of damage.

    I think that they destroyed most of the Ukraine air defense and now decided that it is safe to fly Tu-22M3 as well.

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    Post  Isos Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:16 pm

    Ned86 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:

    Does anyone know why su24 did not make an appearance?

    They aren't using anything. No drones, no air force, no artillery. They seem to make war with kalibr and iskanders.

    I was expecting to see thousands of Lancet suicide drones and  lot of krasnopol guided shells which is the way to fight such small groups. But not, they send t-80s against defensive positions where there are good atgm really nicely hidden in bushes and forest.

    The hunt for AD is also very poor. No nasty tactics to hunt them like israeli do. Ukrainian aren't a conventional army anymore. They need to adapt or they will loose even more.

    They do use drones as you can see many combat videos recorded by drones.
    Also, Russian Air force have been flying actively with Su-35, Su-34 and Su-25..more recently Tu-22M3.
    Not to mention Ka-52, Mi-28 and Mi-24/35.

    Also, they are using guided artillery (krasnopol) as well as combat drones.
    Of course Cruise missiles and Iskanders are used for big targets because they make a lot of damage.

    I think that they destroyed most of the Ukraine air defense and now decided that it is safe to fly Tu-22M3 as well.

    Very little is used. We saw footage of only 3 kub suicide drones and they didn't even explode. Lancet are nowhere, no sign of them.

    Ukrainian artillery still manage to fire on russian artillery. Lancet would be nice there to take it out. Or some drones to guide russian fire on them.

    Sukhoi are downed as soon as they enter ukraine. Still lot of AD activity. They can use target drones to spot them and armed drones to take them out.

    Su-25 fly only in donbass at very low altitude and use light rockets.

    Helicopters on the opposite have shown their value.

    Tu-22 was used from the sea on Mariupol where there is no AD left because russians secured the area. It's an easy target for AD if goes any further from there.

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:21 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Hole wrote:S-300F has only one radar (above the hangar, which can be turned and has a coverage of around 270°)), it follows the targets (up to 6 or 12) and sends info to the missiles. The search part is done by the two specialized radars on top of the masts (360° coverage).
    To understand that blind spot on Moskva, compare to Aegis cruisers.....they have their phased array radar plate in four directions, covering 360 degrees. Moskva had only one phased array radar, on a pivoting base, covering only one sector, leaving a blind spot. Fiberglass radome at stern of Moskva is for the phased array radar. Phased array radars are incredibly expensive but the computers needed to run them are GARGANTUALLY expensive. Russia did the cheap solution, a phased array radar that points into direction of threat.

    Not Russia, the Soviet Union. The vessel was commissioned in 1979

    The computers are not expensive. They probably were back 40 years ago.

    And if you rotate your radar you get 360 degree coverage

    According to one Ukrainian account, a Bayraktar took out the radar. Which left the vessel vulnerable to the Neptun threat.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:How about a ethnic bomb... evidence from US bio weapons labs in the Ukraine... there should be a lot of very interesting material captured there... easily enough to isolate ethnic genes to allow groups to be targeted... Anglo saxons could be a start... this is the war the US is creating... Russia is just defending itself...

    Would be a good Bond movie...

    Only reaction you will get in the West on that news would be "F*ck, we were so close to finishing them off, that was awesome idea, hopefully we can try again!"

    West wants Russians exterminated, this is the last news that they would be dissatisfied with



    Last edited by PapaDragon on Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Regular Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:29 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    Not Russia, the Soviet Union. The vessel was commissioned in 1979

    The computers are not expensive. They probably were back 40 years ago.

    And if you rotate your radar you get 360 degree coverage

    According to one Ukrainian account, a Bayraktar took out the radar. Which left the vessel vulnerable to the Neptun threat.


    Bayraktar bit is bullshit, most likely it was a salvo of Neptunes or older systems that overwhelmed Moskva. Or a mime clown

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:31 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:

    Does anyone know why su24 did not make an appearance?

    They aren't using anything. No drones, no air force, no artillery. They seem to make war with kalibr and iskanders.

    I was expecting to see thousands of Lancet suicide drones and  lot of krasnopol guided shells which is the way to fight such small groups. But not, they send t-80s against defensive positions where there are good atgm really nicely hidden in bushes and forest.

    The hunt for AD is also very poor. No nasty tactics to hunt them like israeli do. Ukrainian aren't a conventional army anymore. They need to adapt or they will loose even more.

    They are using most things

    Drones, air force and artillery

    The Su-24s did make an appearance early in the conflict, low-altitude penetration bombing. All manner of artillery has been witnessed - Mstas, VDV airlifted howitzers, Tyulpans, Pions, smaller mortars, Khostas, Grads, Smerches. Krasnopol shells use has been published on multiple occassions. They are using all manners of drones, from small commercial quadrocopters, to Forposts, to Orions, to medium-range types. They're used for spotting for Krasnopol shells and conventional artillery, for reconnaisance of Mariupol, to conduct strikes with their own missiles, and so on.

    They don't send T-80s against defensive positions outright. In the battles around Kharkov it's the reconnaissance and Spetsnaz forces which are in the vanguard, engaging diversionary groups, doing recon, and spotting for artillery. The tank/infantry forces follow behind them, and they have TOS systems for engaging infantry bands that attempt to ambush them out of forests and so on. You can look at the sort of fireworks around Kharkov.
    Helicopter gunships are widely employed too.

    In the beggining of the conflict they took out all the Ukrainian S-300 systems which were deployed on the first night, and there's a vid of a Mi-24 hunting a Buk system down. Nevertheless these systems surprised them when they attempted to fly fighters and tactical bombers further into Ukrainian territory. I already posted about why it's hard to hunt them down. There's a video of a Su-34 employing anti-radiation missiles, but that will only take you so far.

    Israel has a lot more experience with SEAD warfare, but it's facing much weaker enemies, and who don't have the benefit of having real-time radar and trajectory warnings from NATO. Nevertheless the Israelis stopped flying into Syria some time ago, they rely on gliding bombs as the threat of ambush by air defense systems in Syria is too great.

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:37 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Very little is used. We saw footage of only 3 kub suicide drones and they didn't even explode. Lancet are nowhere, no sign of them.

    No sign of Lancet but then suicide drones are a poor mans missile or guided artillery shell

    Ukrainian artillery still manage to fire on russian artillery. Lancet would be nice there to take it out. Or some drones to guide russian fire on them.

    Ukrainian artillery is hidden. That's the whole point, you can't always find its position before it fires, and as soon as they fire they can try to conceal themselves again or move on before their exact location is determined. If you know where it is, you have a range of options to take it out, if you don't then it doesn't matter what weapons you have.

    Nevertheless going by Russian MoD readouts, Russia has destroyed well over 50% of Ukrainian artillery

    Of particular use against them was artillery fire of Russia's own. Ka-52s/Mi-28Ns in night hunting mode, assorted air strikes and missile strikes against ammo depots have also helped.

    The Ukraine also gets more artillery shipped in, as it gets more shipped in of everything.

    Sukhoi are downed as soon as they enter ukraine. Still lot of AD activity. They can use target drones to spot them and armed drones to take them out.

    But Sukhois have been flying above the Ukraine for 7 weeks now

    Yet that we know of, Russia has lost 7-8 Sukhois or so in total. A couple Su-34s, 2-3 Su-30SMs, a Su-35 and 1-2 Su-25s. For such an intense war, it's hardly critical.

    Su-25 fly only in donbass at very low altitude and use light rockets.

    They flew above Kherson 3 weeks ago when the Ukrainians attempted to advance there, and by all reports decimated retreating columns

    How do you know where the Su-25s are flying and what they're using?


    Last edited by flamming_python on Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Regular Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:41 pm

    Hey, Archangelsk, are you Razvedos by any chance?

    Sorry, no English translation, but well known SF guy Razvedos gives his opinion regards the war.

    https://vk.com/video-23956241_456249583

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:50 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:The most likely is that moskva was subject to sabotage by crewmember with hohol sympathy...

    Sabotage excuse is the most pathetic PR strategy imaginable and is the last resort of people who don't have a clue what they are doing but it's definitely a staple of Russian governance

    I haven't seen a single case of something like this ending up to be the truth

    Only acceptable excuse would be if ship ran into a mine, not ideal but at least somewhat understandable

    Everything else is abject humiliation especially if ship was actually sunk by direct Ukrainian action, this would be rock bottom



    Mir wrote:...Keep in mind tahat the Slavas were actually an alternative and cheaper design in case the Kirovs proved to be a failure so it had it's limitations and that included air defense systems, but overall the Slavas proved to be very reliable and capable ships.

    Reliable maybe but capable part is very much in question after this



    flamming_python wrote:According to one Ukrainian account, a Bayraktar took out the radar. Which left the vessel vulnerable to the Neptun threat....

    This would be next level humiliation

    A low grade disposable drone taking out a radar on a warship?

    Why having a warship with radars if you allow something like this to happen?



    Like I said before, if Russia allowed it's warship to get hit by Ukraine then Russia didn't deserve to have this ship in the first place


    Let's just hope that cause of sinking was a mine, this would sting the least








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    Post  PhSt Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:00 pm


    I've been following the news but I don't see any decisive retribution yet as answer to the cowardly attack on the Moskva. I want to see more Ukrop cities leveled to the ground.
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    Post  Ned86 Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:04 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Ukrainian artillery still manage to fire on russian artillery. Lancet would be nice there to take it out. Or some drones to guide russian fire on them.
    That is the because Ukraine has shit load of artillery and spread across large land area.

    Isos wrote:
    Sukhoi are downed as soon as they enter ukraine. Still lot of AD activity. They can use target drones to spot them and armed drones to take them out.
    Not true, even according to the US sources (which always downplay Russians) they fly 300 sorties a day.
    They lost 1 su-35, 1-2 su-30 and 1-3 su-34 which nothing giving the fact Ukraine size and air defense.

    There been report of Russian aircraft flying missions in Western Ukraine also.
    https://en.topwar.ru/195040-glava-lvovskoj-oblasti-rossijskie-su-35-nanesli-raketnyj-udar-po-zapadnoj-ukraine.html

    During the Desert storm US flew more than 2000 sorties per day and lost 52 aircraft and 23 helicopters.
    During the 2003 invasion of Iraq US flew 1300 sorties per day and lost 8 fixed wing aircraft.
    (of course US always report that friendly fire or malfunction was the cause of crash)

    Isos wrote:
    Helicopters on the opposite have shown their value.
    I agree on this one and they destroyed the bulk of Ukranian army.

    Isos wrote:
    Tu-22 was used from the sea on Mariupol where there is no AD left because russians secured the area. It's an easy target for AD if goes any further from there.
    We will see in the future.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:10 pm

    PhSt wrote:I've been following the news but I don't see any decisive retribution yet as answer to the cowardly attack on the Moskva. I want to see more Ukrop cities leveled to the ground.

    What's cowardly about it? It a huge warship not bus with civilians

    It should have been suicidal move but it turned out to be epic success


    Ukraine should have been leveled from day one, this whole ship thing should have nothing to do with it

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:13 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 16 FQbKugMWQBEbw8Y?format=jpg&name=small

    US officials confirm?... No, US officials assert.

    Big frigging difference. Why should anyone believe these dirty fcking liars?

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    Post  caveat emptor Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:14 pm

    Analysis i 100% agree with, made by Boris Rozhin aka Colonel Cassad:

    Evolution of the conflict

    One of the key problems of Russia is that it still has not switched to the war regime, but has remained in the NVO regime, and without this transition there will be no victory in the war.

    When, at the beginning of the conflict, the Ministry of Defense and the Kremlin called everything a special military operation, they automatically drove everything into a certain framework of this SVO. The conflict evolved, it became clear that there was no SVO at all, even if there was a calculation for it, but the framework remained. And most of the politicians, functionaries and even the military continue to remain within this framework, not realizing that a real war is going on, respectively, in the process of self-deception, gross mistakes are made, while not fatal, but may become fatal in the future.

    Moreover, Moscow contradicts itself: on the one hand, it realizes and says it publicly that most of the Western world, one of the largest armies in Europe, and almost all the economic and military functionality of the West are acting against it, but at the same time it behaves as if there is a local military operation. This is a self-deception that can backfire if you do not change the approach and do not call a spade a spade and prepare both the Defense Ministry and the state apparatus, and citizens for this.

    If at the beginning of the conflict the West was limited to a sanctions strike and the supply of light weapons and intelligence information, now Ukraine is pumping weapons on a completely different scale: to the endless supplies of various anti-tank systems, MANPADS, communication systems and other things, heavy and light equipment, artillery, anti-ship missiles have been added and perhaps soon there will be air defense and aviation (including drones).

    There are no more halftones. Threats towards NATO and the West regarding the supply of weapons clearly had no effect, if at the beginning NATO denied and stated that there would be no such deliveries, now the casket is completely open, and the reaction remained in words. The West sees this very well and draws conclusions.

    Moscow must first of all admit to itself that there is a war going on and part of the world is directly involved in this war against Russia, there is no NVO in Ukraine and could not be. Moscow must transfer the entire conflict into the regime of a real war and transfer the state to these rails. Officials, military functionaries and citizens should know and understand this. This is extremely important for Moscow. In half a turn, even local success will not work, it is out of the question, this train has long gone.

    The main reasons that brought Russia to February 24, 2022 are, among other things, long years of half-tones, a series of mistakes and indecisiveness of diplomacy, unawareness of the inevitable, lack of strategy and constant half-turns in everything. All this led to the fact that the red lines moved towards Russia, and what seemed impossible yesterday became a reality today, and Moscow's reactions to this were more like light phantom impulses. The West saw this and continued to move the front. And, unfortunately for Moscow, it has not ended even now, within the framework of the conflict in Ukraine.

    On February 24, the bridges were burned, Moscow must not only understand this, but also act accordingly. There is no way back, there is only one way, and in order to overcome it, you need to act with full force and without looking back.

    (c) TOGARMA

    https://t.me/boris_rozhin/42739 - zinc

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    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 16 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12

    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:19 pm

    Regular wrote:Hey, Archangelsk, are you Razvedos by any chance?

    Sorry, no English translation, but well known SF guy Razvedos gives his opinion regards the war.

    https://vk.com/video-23956241_456249583


    He's absolutely right

    And I understand the frustration , look at commentary

    Frustration is everywhere because the clown show putin and the firefighter shoigu who are worse than Ugrant at making jokes

    Are running this operation into the ground

    Everyone here continues to make endless excuses for what is incompetence and lack of decisiveness

    What more needs to happen ?

    But there is no words , absolutely crickets and silence from the top, it's a disgrace , they deserve to be removed at this point

    There is no need for mobilization, yet it comes closer everyday because these idiots are running a disastrous political policy on the battleground

    For who? And for what? Ukraine should be stones and dust

    Here we have speculation, was it a submarine? Was it a bird? Was it a ufo that destroyed moskva? No it was neither, it was a NATO laser says the other one

    Bunch of , running this show

    And to finish it off, zelensky continues to run his mouth with the rest of these scum nazis

    Where is the strike on decision making centers?

    , they hit KLIMOVO, and injured 7 RUSSIAN people

    Crickets

    My blood pressure went through my heart, I'm done

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    Sujoy
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 16 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12

    Post  Sujoy Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:21 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:There are no NATO submarines in the black sea

    NATO does not have SSK there  , only turkish and they are known when they are at port or out at sea

    A nation cannot enter the black sea submerged, but must enter surfaced according to Montreux convention,

    Even then the straits are closed and Turkey fulfills its role as guarantor of the convention

    The Kursk was also hit by a torpedo fired by a U.S submarine. A U.S submarine was not supposed to be there. NATO has not accepted that NATO army regulars are embedded with Ukrainian soldiers. We found out only when they were arrested by the Russians,

    NATO SSKs could have sneaked in with or without Turkey's consent. Turkey's ability to detect submarines is abysmal.

    I should have also added that a Torpedo could well have been launched by a NATO aircraft.

    Russian Navy knows the range of the Neptune. Why would they on purpose keep it within its range? It is also childish to think that Moskva's search and track radars completely failed to detect the missiles and the TB 2 drone.

    Furthermore, Russian airborne assets and space based assets would have picked up the Neptune the minute it was launched.

    Re that mine theory one solitary mine would not have been able to sink such a massive cruiser. And when did Ukraine get the opportunity to even lay sea mines?


    Last edited by Sujoy on Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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