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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:45 pm

    Sun Tzu Walks Into a Kherson Bar, by Pepe Escobar for The Unz Review. 11.11.2022.

    The announcement of the Kherson Retreat may have signaled one of the gloomiest days of the Russian Federation since 1991.

    Leaving the right bank of the Dnieper to set up a defense line on the left bank may spell out total military sense. General Armageddon himself, since his first day on the job, had hinted this might have been inevitable.

    As it stands in the chessboard, Kherson is in the “wrong” side of the Dnieper. All residents of Kherson Oblast – 115,000 people in total – who wanted to be relocated to safer latitudes have been evacuated from the right bank.

    General Armageddon knew that was inevitable for several reasons:

    no mobilization after the initial SMO plans hit the dust; destruction of strategic bridges across the Dnieper – complete with a three-month methodical Ukrainian pounding of bridges, ferries, pontoons and piers; no second bridgehead to the north of Kherson or to the west (towards Odessa or Nikolaev) to conduct an offensive.

    And then, the most important reason: massive weaponization coupled with NATO de facto running the war translated into enormous Western superiority in reconnaissance, communications and command and control.

    In the end, the Kherson Retreat may be a relatively minor tactical loss. Yet politically, it’s an unmitigated disaster, a devastating embarrassment.

    Kherson is a Russian city. Russians have lost – even if temporarily – the capital of a brand new territory attached to the Federation. Russian public opinion will have tremendous problems absorbing the news.

    The list of negatives is considerable. Kiev forces secure their flank and may free up forces to go against Donbass. Weaponizing by the collective West gets a major boost. HIMARS can now potentially strike targets in Crimea.

    The optics are horrendous. Russia’s image across the Global South is severely tarnished; after all, this move amounts to abandoning Russian territory – while serial Ukrainian war crimes instantly disappear from the major “narrative”.

    At a minimum, the Russians a long time ago should have reinforced their major strategic advantage bridgehead on the west side of the Dnieper so that it could hold – short of a widely forecasted Kakhovka Dam flood. And yet the Russians also ignored the dam bombing threat for months. That spells out terrible planning.

    Now Russian forces will have to conquer Kherson all over again. And in parallel stabilize the frontlines; draw definitive borders; and then strive to “demilitarize” Ukrainian offensives for good, either via negotiation or carpet bombing.

    It’s quite revealing that an array of NATO intel types, from analysts to retired Generals, are suspicious of General Armageddon’s move: they see it as an elaborate trap, or as a French military analyst put it, “a massive deception operation”. Classic Sun Tzu. That has been duly incorporated as the official Ukrainian narrative.

    So, to quote Twin Peaks, that American pop culture subversive classic, “the owls are not what they seem”. If that’s the case, General Armageddon would be looking to severely overstretch Ukrainian supply lines; seduce them into exposure; and then engage in a massive turkey shoot.

    So it’s either Sun Tzu; or a deal is in the wings, coinciding with the G20 next week in Bali.

    The art of the deal

    Well, some sort of deal seems to have been struck between Jake Sullivan and Patrushev.

    No one really knows the details, even those with access to flamboyant 5th Column informants in Kiev. But yes – the deal seems to include Kherson. Russia would keep Donbass but not advance towards Kharkov and Odessa. And NATO expansion would be definitely frozen. A minimalist deal.

    That would explain why Patrushev was able to board a plane to Tehran simultaneous to the announcement of the Kherson Retreat, and take care, quite relaxed, of very important strategic partnership business with Ali Shamkhani, Secretary of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council.

    The deal may have also been the inbuilt “secret” in Maria Zakharova’s announcement that “we’re ready for negotiations”.

    The Russians will leave the Dnieper riverbank in a managed military retreat. That would not be possible without managed military-to-military negotiations.

    These back channel negotiations have been going on for weeks. The messenger is Saudi Arabia. The US aim, in the short term, would be towards a sort of Minsk 3 accord – with Istanbul/Riyadh attached.

    No one is paying the slightest attention to coke clown Zelensky. Sullivan went to Kiev to present a fait accompli – of sorts.

    The Dnieper will be – in thesis – the settled and negotiated frontline.

    Kiev would have to swallow a frozen line of contact in Zaporizhye, Donetsk and Lugansk – with Kiev receiving electricity from Zaporozhye, hence cease shelling its infrastructure.

    The US would come up with a loan of $50 billion plus part of the confiscated – i.e. stolen – Russian assets to “rebuild” Ukraine. Kiev would receive modern air defense systems.

    There’s no doubt Moscow will not go along with any of these provisions.

    Note that all this coincides with the outcome of the US elections – where the Dems did not exactly lose.

    Meanwhile Russia is accumulating more and more gains in the battle for Bakhmut.

    There are no illusions whatsoever in Moscow that this crypto-Minsk 3 would be respected by the “non-agreement capable” Empire.

    Jake Sullivan is a 45-year-old lawyer with zero strategic background and “experience” amounting to campaigning for Hillary Clinton. Patrushev can eat him for breakfast, lunch, dinner and late night snack – and vaguely “agree” to anything.

    So why are the Americans desperate to offer a deal? Because they may be sensing the next Russian move with the arrival of General Winter should be capable of conclusively winning the war on Moscow’s terms. That would include slamming the Polish border shut via a long arrow move from Belarus downwards. With weaponizing supply lines cut, Kiev’s fate is sealed.

    Deal or no deal, General Winter is coming to town – ready to entertain his guest of honor Sun Tzu with so many new dishes at their dinner table.

    https://www.unz.com/pescobar/sun-tzu-walks-into-a-kherson-bar/

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:04 pm

    Reports from BBC (know very suspect) that Ukrainians troops are already in Kherson city. (vauge) but if the Russians have allowed them to waltz across that open farmland without paying a high price then I really question what the plan is here. I suspect its a small town outside Kherson. But MAN if the Russians do not blanket the AUF with fire and steel on their way in, then they may as well start planning the surrender ceremony.

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    Post  Hole Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:11 pm

    Godric wrote:i seriously don't understand why Russia pulled out of Kherson when they had it under there control, to me it feels like a own goal that gave Ukraine a propaganda victory.

    something else might be going on that they needed those troops but to me it feels as if Russia abandoned the people of Kherson to the naz.is
    Take a look at some of the videos of Ukro Nazi fighters entering the city. The people that staid in Kherson salute them with their right arms. You know, the old "Olympic salute".
    This shows the main problem of those that declare themselfs to be "Ukrainians". Two days ago they took money, food, free healthcare and much lower utility prices from Russia and today they raise blue and yellow flags and shout "Heil Bandera". I hope someone in the FSB takes a look at that and writes down the names of this individuals.

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    Post  PhSt Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:15 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Take a look at some of the videos of Ukro Nazi fighters entering the city. The people that staid in Kherson salute them with their right arms. You know, the old "Olympic salute".
    This shows the main problem of those that declare themselfs to be "Ukrainians". Two days ago they took money, food, free healthcare and much lower utility prices from Russia and today they raise blue and yellow flags and shout "Heil Bandera". I hope someone in the FSB takes a look at that and writes down the names of this individuals.

    I heard there is a constant need for human organs for transplant patients waiting for donors, why not make a profit out of these Ukro Nazis and help shorten the waiting times for the poor patients. Twisted Evil
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    Post  AMK Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:17 pm

    Can someone here, please try to explain, how it has been 9 months since the start of the SMO and just yesterday the news broke out that russian forces finally liberated the entire Donetsk airport territory and they declared that a great victory!? What the actual **** is this?! silent

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    Post  diabetus Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:17 pm

    Well apparently there was no trap in Kherson.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:18 pm

    So military summary channel says Ukraine already has Kherson city. The lack of carnage inflicted on AUF indicates Russia has worked out some deal with the US and has decided to take up the the ass. The only reasons the AUF can cross that territory without massive attrition is a deal or massive incompetence. Take your pick.
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    Post  pavi Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:23 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Godric wrote:i seriously don't understand why Russia pulled out of Kherson when they had it under there control, to me it feels like a own goal that gave Ukraine a propaganda victory.

    something else might be going on that they needed those troops but to me it feels as if Russia abandoned the people of Kherson to the naz.is
    Take a look at some of the videos of Ukro Nazi fighters entering the city. The people that staid in Kherson salute them with their right arms. You know, the old "Olympic salute".
    This shows the main problem of those that declare themselfs to be "Ukrainians". Two days ago they took money, food, free healthcare and much lower utility prices from Russia and today they raise blue and yellow flags and shout "Heil Bandera". I hope someone in the FSB takes a look at that and writes down the names of this individuals.
    This is the biggest problem in this whole operation. You can always qonquer the land, cities and, etc. What next? You feed them,you rebuild for them,and still, they spit on you. That's the reason why yankees have not been succesfull in Iraq or in Afganistan. It is wise to stay out of these areas or, harshly said, change the people. Maybe, this whithdrawing was just a purge?
    Seriously speaking, I'm still thinking, that russians didn't get this war seriously enough and reacted too slowly. The reason maybe just intra political, but the results ar clearly seen. The snowball is rolling down the hill and the soup, even if sour, must be finished. As Machiavelli pointed out, when you jump in the game, you are in the game, whether you want or not. Mr. Clausewitz expleined this much more detailed manner. Best example is this "kindness". Clausewitz point it out first pages in his books saying that "the war is violent action, and should always been seen as one. No matter, if one tries to see it other way, the other will always responds more harsher way". As PapaD has stated, lets pussyfooting be over...


    Last edited by pavi on Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:28 pm

    pavi wrote:
    This is the biggest problem in this whole operation. You can always qonquer the land, cities and, etc. What next? You feed them,you rebuild for them,and still, they spit on you. That's the reason why yankees have not been succesfull in Iraq or in Afganistan. It is wise to stay out of these areas or, harshly said, change the people. Maybe, this whithdrawing was just a purge?

    Because most leaders make the mistake of keeping the conquered people alive. Harvest their organs or turn them into fertilizer. Problem solved. Same treatment should be extended to all NATzO fans out there. Kill them and their families.

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:36 pm

    diabetus wrote:Well apparently there was no trap in Kherson.

    I am surprised the Russians were not handing out blankets and hot coffee to the AUF based on how easily they waltzed in. Clearly something is up. And it looks like Russia has decided to settle for status quo.


    Last edited by mnztr on Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:38 pm

    The user above (phSt) should be banned for advocating a genocide

    . It's a pro Russian forum but this is clearly off limits.

    Where is GarryB when we need him?

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    Post  DerWolf Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:43 pm

    mnztr wrote:Reports from BBC (know very suspect) that Ukrainians troops are already in Kherson city. (vauge) but if the Russians have allowed them to waltz across that open farmland without paying a high price then I really question what the plan is here. I suspect its a small town outside Kherson. But  MAN if the Russians do not blanket the AUF with fire and steel on their way in, then they may as well start planning the surrender ceremony.

    Most likely they got a deal between them.
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    Post  PhSt Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:46 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:The user above (phSt) should be banned for advocating a genocide

    . It's a pro Russian forum but this is clearly off limits.

    Where is GarryB when we need him?

    It's all in your head you stinking NAZI Troll. Nothing wrong with exterminating NAZIs like yourself attack
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    Post  franco Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:49 pm

    thegopnik wrote:I will only be a doomer with Archangelski if 3 of these conditions happen.

    1. Russia ordering 100k additional troops: They had like 100k-120k forces or so in the operation, they underestimated the situation and got like 318k reserves. so roughly like 400k-450K, While our boy Zelensky stated in May 21 that he had like 700k ukrainian troops which of course foreign volunteers could have jumped in later. If they order these troops this means that their land forces despite us seeing a small fraction of it can never go toe to toe with NATO around an equal footing, and they have fucked up again underestimating the situation which at this point shows their higher ups dont know what they are doing which will finally confirm it if they order these amount of troops.

    I had a read somewhere after the Kharkov debacle and at the start of mobilization that a major problem had developed in the SMO zone. Apparently over 30,000 of the short term volunteers (3 or 6 months) had finished their contracts and had not resigned up. This along with casualties taken by the LDPR's forces and Russian forces over the first 6 months had left the Allied forces seriously under-strength.

    Also:

    More than 30,000 Russian soldiers were withdrawn to the left bank of the Dnieper. This was reported by the Ministry of Defense of Russia. It is specified that about five thousand units of weapons and equipment were also redeployed.

    https://www-gazeta-ru.translate.goog/army/news/2022/11/11/19013407.shtml?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    NOTE: so 20-25% of total Russian forces were on the West bank... this coupled with another 300,000 troops coming in should make things happen on the East bank.

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    Post  pavi Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:51 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:The user above (phSt) should be banned for advocating a genocide

    . It's a pro Russian forum but this is clearly off limits.
    Maybe you misunderstood the purge word. Sorry about that. I'm not native english speaker, and all those details in words are unclear. What I meant was, russians gave an opportunity to go russian side or stay ukrainian side. If russians are coming back, those peoplewho stayed in Kherson may want to move in Ukraine. So, even if everybody has possibility to stay, they won't, which efectively changes demography towards pro russian. I hope, this explanation will cool your head enough. I'm not nuthead. I'm coolhead and very calm one without much emotions.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:53 pm

    PhSt wrote:
    pavi wrote:
    This is the biggest problem in this whole operation. You can always qonquer the land, cities and, etc. What next? You feed them,you rebuild for them,and still, they spit on you. That's the reason why yankees have not been succesfull in Iraq or in Afganistan. It is wise to stay out of these areas or, harshly said, change the people. Maybe, this whithdrawing was just a purge?

    Because most leaders make the mistake of keeping the conquered people alive. Harvest their organs or turn them into fertilizer. Problem solved. Same treatment should be extended to all NATzO fans out there. Kill them and their families.

    You are deranged and mentally ill, seek help.

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    Post  PhSt Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:00 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    You are deranged and mentally ill, seek help.


    This is a war of Extermination being waged by you westerners against Russia. Apparently when its your side who is doing the slaughter its perfectly normal and that there is nothing to see, but when others suggest the same approach suddenly they are deranged and mentally ill Laughing

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    Post  sundoesntrise Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:05 am

    AMK wrote:Can someone here, please try to explain, how it has been 9 months since the start of the SMO and just yesterday the news broke out that russian forces finally liberated the entire Donetsk airport territory and they declared that a great victory!? What the actual **** is this?! silent

    You are not supposed to notice.

    And if you do, you are a 'NATzO rat whose mom's organs need to be harvested'.

    Better question, especially after seeing how the Russians are constructing lines of defence in Northern Crimea, what's the plan from here on forward?

    Is there actually a plan?
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:08 am

    sundoesntrise wrote:

    You are not supposed to notice.

    And if you do, you are a 'NATzO rat whose mom's organs need to be harvested'.

    Better question, especially after seeing how the Russians are constructing lines of defence in Northern Crimea, what's the plan from here on forward?

    Is there actually a plan?

    What plan Laughing

    It's a shitshow of epic proportions

    A random marine brigade is attacking in some pavlovka, some random wagner group attacks Artemovsk, without support

    Some random chechens attack here and there

    There's no method to the madness, and how would there be ? There's strict orders to not shell to avoid civilian casualties-

    It's a disaster and I'm just laughing reading these threads

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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:12 am

    MHV's take on Ukraine
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    Post  calripson Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:13 am

    Comments leaked by various Western military and political officials and the refusal to supply certain arms indicated that deals are being cut and the retreat from Kherson is part of the package. As Macron stated , they don't want to overtly humiliate Russia, but de facto the war has already been lost for Putin and the question of what conditions they impose and the timeline for implementing those conditions are up in the air. There will be some face saving gestures, but the ultimate reality for all but the most cognitively impaired is apparent. It is a shocking geopolitical defeat - shocking except to UK and US military and intelligence strategists who game planned it perfectly. It highlights the huge inadequacies in Russian intelligence first and foremost (you have to wonder how widely penetrated and compromised those agencies are) as well as Russian military leadership. The relative disparity in technology (outside of some key areas like strategic and hypersonic weapons) is apparent to all. Also, the total uselessness of the most advanced strategic weapons in the knowledge that you will never use them even as a tool of mass psychological terror. Some general lessons to be learned from the conflict: naval capital ships are a worthless waste of money in modern warfare, no armored vehicle should be produced without an effective APS system, cost effective drone swarms and anti-drone non-kinetic weapons are the waves of the future. Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.

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    Post  sundoesntrise Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:18 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    sundoesntrise wrote:

    You are not supposed to notice.

    And if you do, you are a 'NATzO rat whose mom's organs need to be harvested'.

    Better question, especially after seeing how the Russians are constructing lines of defence in Northern Crimea, what's the plan from here on forward?

    Is there actually a plan?

    What plan Laughing

    It's a shitshow of epic proportions

    A random marine brigade is attacking in some pavlovka, some random wagner group attacks Artemovsk, without support

    Some random chechens attack here and there

    There's no method to the madness, and how would there be ? There's strict orders to not shell to avoid civilian casualties-

    It's a disaster and I'm just laughing reading these threads

    Seeing so much incompetence (and cope and spin) I too laughed for a long time, but am now seriously getting worried. The world needs a (perceived) strong and somewhat independent Russia to balance out the (((neoliberal corpocrats))).

    In the current geopolitical and military situation a complete and immediate freeze of the frontline (Minsk 3) would be the best solution. However Ukraine + their (((Anglo))) masters don't want to talk and I don't blame them.

    So what's the plan, hold on to the territories acquired by putting up defences and flooding those with 300k soldiers whilst hoping to outlast the Ukrainian fighting enthusiasm through attacks on critical infrastructure + wearing down support in the West through hybrid economic warfare?

    I don't see that as a winning strategy at all.
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    Post  PhSt Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:22 am

    calripson wrote:Comments leaked by various Western military and political officials and the refusal to supply certain arms indicated that deals are being cut and the retreat from Kherson is part of the package. As Macron stated , they don't want to overtly humiliate Russia, but de facto the war has already been lost for Putin and the question of what conditions they impose and the timeline for implementing those conditions are up in the air. There will be some face saving gestures, but the ultimate reality for all but the most cognitively impaired is apparent. It is a shocking geopolitical defeat - shocking except to UK and US military and intelligence strategists who game planned it perfectly. It highlights the huge inadequacies in Russian intelligence first and foremost (you have to wonder how widely penetrated and compromised those agencies are) as well as Russian military leadership. The relative disparity in technology (outside of some key areas like strategic and hypersonic weapons) is apparent to all. Also, the total uselessness of the most advanced strategic weapons in the knowledge that you will never use them even as a tool of mass psychological terror. Some general lessons to be learned from the conflict: naval capital ships are a worthless waste of money in modern warfare, no armored vehicle should be produced without an effective APS system, cost effective drone swarms and anti-drone non-kinetic weapons are the waves of the future. Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.


    Did you grab this script from your NATzO Tabloid propagandists? Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Any sign of defeat should automatically trigger Russia to fire a couple of nuke salvos. This will remind the West that Russia will not stand idle and allow itself to be humiliated. Russia will have to resort to nuclear war to humiliate the West by annihilating them. Russia will get destroyed in the process but at least a nuclear war will result in a draw. Whats most important is that the entire Western civilization is exterminated forever russia
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    Post  PhSt Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:29 am

    I have already determined the modus operandi of NATzO Trolls in this forum (and others)

    These NATzO Trolls will say a thing or two about how they support Russia and then mention a couple of slurs towards the West and Pukraine, this is to give other people an impression that they support Russia's cause, but this is just a ruse, when the opportune moment comes, they will not hesitate to regurgitate NATzO Propaganda and make small and irrelevant incidents look Big and Blow them out of proportion. A thread should be started where a list of these NATzO Dogs is shown to expose them and serve as a warning to other users.
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    mnztr


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 8 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

    Post  mnztr Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:33 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:MHV's take on Ukraine

    This is so old its about as relevant as the Phoencian war lol.

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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 8 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

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