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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:35 pm

    kvs wrote:Must be because Russia is running out of shells. lol1
    That random satellite image proves diddley squat.

    I seriously have an issue with getting the clue of this whole denial stage.

    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from China.
    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from Iran.
    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from North Korea.
    There are some rumors, that soon they can have deliveries from Myanmar either. Myanmar defence industry was extremely overhauled in the last two decades, and the number of enterprises tripled. They can supply a wide array of mmunition including small arms 7.62 and 5.45, mortar 81 and 120, gun 122 and 152mm, mines equivalent to PTM-62, RPG-7 rounds of a different types. They produce 57 mm S-60 ammunition and 122mm rockets for Grad. They even can supply Igla MANPADs and it's subcomponents, like the batteries or cartridges.

    As the war is going on, you are notoriously disbelieving things proven right.
    What's more, all of them are just logical.
    Proving the great effectiveness and flexibility of the Russian supply chain, and what's more - the fact that they have proven allies.

    What is the point of denying that? dunno scratch

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:18 pm

    ALAMO wrote:

    I seriously have an issue with getting the clue of this whole denial stage.

    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from China.
    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from Iran.
    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from North Korea.
    []
    Proving the great effectiveness and flexibility of the Russian supply chain, and what's more - the fact that they have proven allies.

    What is the point of denying that? dunno scratch

    on top I'd add that extra russia russia russia shipments could enable Russia to free up production capacities for manufacturing more complex products
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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:25 pm

    Eastern NATO states were told to send all their stocks of ex-Warzaw Pact material to Ukraine, effectively building up the second Ukrainian army over the summer of 2022, after the first had been annihilated. They then resorted to shipping stolen Iranian goods and what not, together with western stocks, to build up the 3rd Ukrainian army, as RU had annihilated the 2nd by the spring of 2023.

    Now the 3rd army is being destroyed.

    So Russia getting some extra additions for dirt cheap from NK is how significant?

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:27 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    on top I'd add   that extra  russia  russia  russia shipments could enable Russia to free up production capacities for manufacturing more complex products

    Exactly.
    Plus all of those can go perfectly undisrupted, using fully controlled transport corridors.
    Inside the countries with extremely serious security procedures, making the whole cooperation hard to control.
    I gave you the marine traffic numbers for Caspia freshly revealed by the ship register.
    Fully loaded ships from Iran are streamlined towards Russian ports.
    All loaded with mandarines, we can bet on that any moment! Laughing
    And famous Iranian apples.
    On every ship, bottom up!
    Russkie will become a global top one cider producer, at any moment!

    Dr.Snufflebug wrote:Eastern NATO states were told to send all their stocks of ex-Warzaw Pact material to Ukraine, effectively building up the second Ukrainian army over the summer of 2022, after the first had been annihilated. They then resorted to shipping stolen Iranian goods and what not, together with western stocks, to build up the 3rd Ukrainian army, as RU had annihilated the 2nd by the spring of 2023.

    Now the 3rd army is being destroyed.

    So Russia getting some extra additions for dirt cheap from NK is how significant?

    I guess we are facing some bizarre version of pride complex.
    Beloved Russia can't buy weapons, as it is the world champion in weaponry production.
    Well, even if we will take that for granted - it is hard to prove wrong considering the background - buying stuff for a margin of the localized cost because of the PPP leverage, and making your own enterprises free to produce more advanced stuff - is only a win.
    You really should consider to step out of some of your dogmas folks. Some of you.

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    Post  JohninMK Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:20 pm

    I thought that the RN were fleeing Crimea Very Happy

    MT Anderson
    @MT_Anderson
    ·
    Oct 7
    🇷🇺BSF SEVASTOPOL🇷🇺
    0.5M📷 from midday 6 Oct 2023. Still quite a bit of firepower in port.
    2x Krivak
    1x Pr 22160
    1x Karakurt
    1x Tarantul
    3x Ropucha
    2x Bora (1 ship repair bay / 1 dry dock)
    1x KILO
    2x Intelligence (Vishnya/Yuriy Ivanov Classes)

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    Post  JohninMK Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:28 pm

    Capt(N)
    @Capt_Navy
    This article about the at the Black Sea deserves the attention of anyone who is interested in getting an objective picture of events & a professional analysis of the current situation. Its key feature is the lack of political engagement in the presentation of the material.

    Thord Are Iversen
    @The_Lookout_N
    Military and defense issues, as seen from NATOs northern flank. Special interest: The Russian Navy. Independent Defense Analyst. the.lookout.n@protonmail.com


    Thord Are Iversen
    @The_Lookout_N
    New article out: "On understanding the naval war"

    Prompted by recent tendencies to overestimate the impact of Ukrainian actions risking underestimation of the Black Sea Fleet, giving a wrong understanding of the challenges Ukraine is facing at sea.

    https://thelookoutn.substack.com/p/on-understanding-the-naval-war?r=1tjhyy&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

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    Post  ucmvulcan Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:32 pm

    JohninMK wrote:I thought that the RN were fleeing Crimea Very Happy

    MT Anderson
    @MT_Anderson
    ·
    Oct 7
    🇷🇺BSF  SEVASTOPOL🇷🇺
    0.5M📷 from midday 6 Oct 2023. Still quite a bit of firepower in port.
    2x Krivak
    1x Pr 22160
    1x Karakurt
    1x Tarantul
    3x Ropucha
    2x Bora (1 ship repair bay / 1 dry dock)
    1x KILO
    2x Intelligence (Vishnya/Yuriy Ivanov Classes)

    Well they ran out of fuel to move the ships

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    Post  JohninMK Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:36 pm

    Moskva disappearing in front of our eyes

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 27 F7za2c4aIAAkKvd?format=jpg&name=360x360

    Sparta getting some post Syrian Express well deserved love

    1) She has completed 15 roundtrips from Novorossiysk to Tartus since Oct 2022 carrying military hardware & equipment, goodness knows how many before that

    2) She broke down on one of those journeys near the anchorage at 🇹🇷Canakkale

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 27 F7za2dQbIAA5KlC?format=jpg&name=360x360

    Spot on targeting

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 27 F7za0A0akAANhqQ?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  sepheronx Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:52 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    kvs wrote:Must be because Russia is running out of shells. lol1
    That random satellite image proves diddley squat.

    I seriously have an issue with getting the clue of this whole denial stage.

    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from China.
    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from Iran.
    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from North Korea.
    There are some rumors, that soon they can have deliveries from Myanmar either. Myanmar defence industry was extremely overhauled in the last two decades, and the number of enterprises tripled. They can supply a wide array of mmunition including small arms 7.62 and 5.45, mortar 81 and 120, gun 122 and 152mm, mines equivalent to PTM-62, RPG-7 rounds of a different types. They produce 57 mm S-60 ammunition and 122mm rockets for Grad. They even can supply Igla MANPADs and it's subcomponents, like the batteries or cartridges.

    As the war is going on, you are notoriously disbelieving things proven right.
    What's more, all of them are just logical.
    Proving the great effectiveness and flexibility of the Russian supply chain, and what's more - the fact that they have proven allies.

    What is the point of denying that? dunno scratch

    Because it's used as propaganda by west that Russia cannot produce anything and thus imports it all. And the proclaims prove that correct. Yet we have a few pictures of foreign ammunition so all the western claims are correct?

    The narrative was started by the US and then people even on pro Russian side ran with it. Yet it was apparently proven Russia produces the shells and ammo in the millions. So then the question is raised "if they produce millions, why are they importing" thus the US and everyone else looks to Russia as lying about its production and its in a far worst position than they themselves claim.

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    Post  ucmvulcan Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:23 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:
    kvs wrote:Must be because Russia is running out of shells. lol1
    That random satellite image proves diddley squat.

    I seriously have an issue with getting the clue of this whole denial stage.

    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from China.
    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from Iran.
    Yes, Russkie are buying military supply from North Korea.
    There are some rumors, that soon they can have deliveries from Myanmar either. Myanmar defence industry was extremely overhauled in the last two decades, and the number of enterprises tripled. They can supply a wide array of mmunition including small arms 7.62 and 5.45, mortar 81 and 120, gun 122 and 152mm, mines equivalent to PTM-62, RPG-7 rounds of a different types. They produce 57 mm S-60 ammunition and 122mm rockets for Grad. They even can supply Igla MANPADs and it's subcomponents, like the batteries or cartridges.

    As the war is going on, you are notoriously disbelieving things proven right.
    What's more, all of them are just logical.
    Proving the great effectiveness and flexibility of the Russian supply chain, and what's more - the fact that they have proven allies.

    What is the point of denying that? dunno scratch

    Let them propagandize. Oh sure, the feeble minded like Arkie Archie will start preparing for the siege of Moscow, but for the rest of us who remember Ghost of Chicken Kiev, Russian ship go F yourself, Russia will be out of rockets by the end of March (2022), Russia is running out of tanks, Russia is running out of planes, the Moscow was sank, the bridge was destroyed, Putin has every disease known to man (and woman), half of Russia's generals are dead, half of Russia's generals are launching a coup, every industrial accident is a Ukkrainian attack, Russia can't provide winter clothing for its troops (that one was my personal favorite), and all the other bullshit being peddled from Hollywood to Kharkov, its apparent that this too is yet another lie.

    Like any effective lie, its based somewhat in truth. Russia has lifted sanctions against Iran and North Korea and has dramatically increased trade. Russia is also receiving shells, drones, and other weapons systems and other military assistance including volunteers from its allies. Are North Korean supplies going through Russia to the front? Probably. So what? Russia doesn't need this ordinance, but the ordinance does help. In a few weeks to a few months 50,000 dollar Iranian drones will be permanently ending the mythos of the invulnerabilty and superiority of the Abrams tanks. Western apologists are already backing into the so what its a 40 year old system line. That's true, but its also about to prove that smoking is very bad for its crews to do. Shells from Korea helps Russia in that it can build up its own stocks, strengthen relations with Korea, and it lets the Koreans test its equipment against the sort of weapons it would see in a war with the US.
    Because it's used as propaganda by west that Russia cannot produce anything and thus imports it all. And the proclaims prove that correct. Yet we have a few pictures of foreign ammunition so all the western claims are correct?

    The narrative was started by the US and then people even on pro Russian side ran with it.  Yet it was apparently proven Russia produces the shells and ammo in the millions.  So then the question is raised "if they produce millions, why are they importing" thus the US and everyone else looks to Russia as lying about its production and its in a far worst position than they themselves claim.

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    Post  RTN Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:03 am

    Ukrainian ATGM destroying a Russian T-90M

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    Post  mnztr Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:15 am

    Wow that is one heck of a mine. RIP Shocked

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    Post  thegopnik Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:16 am

    probably a T-90, T-90A or T-90MS since I dont think they sent the breakthroughs yet, although this like the 1st footage in a very long time we saw a T-90 either captured or destroyed.

    Ukraine still has alot of catching up to do. https://ria.ru/20231001/leopard-1899696181.html?ysclid=ln6qkftv4q684384523

    MOSCOW, October 1 - RIA Novosti. The Ukrainian army has lost up to a third of the Leopard tanks supplied by the West, Colonel of the Austrian Armed Forces Markus Reisner told dpa, his words are quoted by the publication Die Welt.
    As the colonel noted, the effectiveness of the Leopard 2 tanks turned out to be "less significant" than expected. "Of the approximately 90 tanks of this type delivered, at least a third were destroyed or damaged," Die Welt quoted Reisner as saying.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:34 am

    RTN wrote:Ukrainian ATGM destroying a Russian T-90M
    Unfortunately, whatever it was, it was instantly fatal.
    The explosion starts on the left side. Can be seen in the video. It's 5s after firing. I think a mine is rather unlikely. How long does the car charger take? 7-8 seconds? Possibly a loading error with interior detonation? A frontal penetration of the tower is also rather unlikely. At least we haven't seen such destruction yet. Especially not with a T90SM.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:04 am

    How can Russia advance once Ukraine goes into defense?

    Let's assume the Ukrainians, after the disastrous counter offensive, decide to simply accept the loss of Crimea, Kherson, Zaporozhye, Donbass and Lughansk

    So they setup minefields, trenches, and other such preparations

    How does Russia pre-empt ?

    They would have to either strike lightning fast before Ukraine has time to mount a defense,

    Or find another axis of attack that is not prepared yet, when Germany bypassed maginot line

    I don't see how they can do it without tipping off the Ukrainians to an offensive

    Look at Kupyansk, once Russia gets initiative in an area, they just porcupine defend the area
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    Post  Godric Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:55 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:How can Russia advance once Ukraine goes into defense?

    Let's assume the Ukrainians, after the disastrous counter offensive, decide to simply accept the loss of Crimea, Kherson, Zaporozhye, Donbass and Lughansk

    So they setup minefields, trenches, and other such preparations

    How does Russia pre-empt ?

    They would have to either strike lightning fast before Ukraine has time to mount a defense,

    Or find another axis of attack that is not prepared yet, when Germany bypassed maginot line

    I don't see how they can do it without tipping off the Ukrainians to an offensive

    Look at Kupyansk, once Russia gets initiative in an area, they just porcupine defend the area

    they have already broken through , even the daily sun have said they have broken through, videos of fairly large surrenders of Ukrainians

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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 09, 2023 5:35 am

    They can advance simply because Ukrainian forces would be horribly weakened after their initial attacks
    And then Russia can start probing Ukrainian defenses along the lines and move where they can.

    Ukraines forces have degraded in numbers severely. Even equipment is scarce than before. Means less to work with in defense.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:48 am

    sepheronx wrote:They can advance simply because Ukrainian forces would be horribly weakened after their initial attacks
    And then Russia can start probing Ukrainian defenses along the lines and move where they can.

    Ukraines forces have degraded in numbers severely. Even equipment is scarce than before.  Means less to work with in defense.

    We do see minor probes north of Artyomovsk

    But we don't see that in Dvorechnoye, Belogorovka, Andreyevka, Seversk, Liman, Kupyansk

    In fact These are all small fry compared to Konstantinovka, Chasov Yar , Slavyansk, Kramatorsk

    The Ukrainian defensive belts of Donbass agglomeration are their own kind of surovikin line

    IMO, the only people still living in the cities mentioned are nazis, mercs, or VSU themselves

    Destroy the whole place like Marinka or Avdeyevka

    And move on

    It doesn't matter if the whole place becomes a giant gray zone , because there is no more urban agglomeration behind Slavyansk that Ukrops could build a defense around

    So there is no value to holding it either

    And let's be real, these places shouldn't be rebuilt anyway, let it be a natural preserve and move tf on

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:56 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Because it's used as propaganda by west that Russia cannot produce anything and thus imports it all. And the proclaims prove that correct. Yet we have a few pictures of foreign ammunition so all the western claims are correct?
    The narrative was started by the US and then people even on pro Russian side ran with it.  Yet it was apparently proven Russia produces the shells and ammo in the millions.  So then the question is raised "if they produce millions, why are they importing" thus the US and everyone else looks to Russia as lying about its production and its in a far worst position than they themselves claim.

    That is only valid as long, as someone is existing in black&white only.
    It is naive and stupid, restricting the objective ability to analyze.
    Buying war materials is just a standard procedure while at war. Everyone does that.
    Tsarist Russia did that, Russian mutineers did that, the Soviet Union did that.
    Most of the fur clothes used in WW2 were delivered by a tiny Mongolia. They saved Red Army from freezing to death.
    Is it an example of the Russkie logistics being dumb, or rather smart?
    Smart Germans were freezing their balls black, but retained the pride, right? Laughing

    Edit : gore warning.

    https://t.me/boris_rozhin/100000

    A trench taken by Russians, full of dead Ukrs, but what is the most interesting? They are investigating bodies to find out that they hardly have any ammunition. Some half-empty magazines, and TWO hand grenades, both being a different type. That's all they could find.

    And this one is even "better" ...

    https://t.me/boris_rozhin/100010
    They are towing dead comrades behind a car, like some dog meat, because they have no other way to do it. Driver looks like closing his 60 ...

    Yup, peremoga is just around the corner ...

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    Post  Scorpius Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:19 am

    RTN wrote:Ukrainian ATGM destroying a Russian T-90M


    there are no signs of damage to the tank with the help of ATGM. Instant detonation is more like detonating a mine.

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    Post  Mir Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:39 am

    It does look like something went horribly wrong inside the tank but it could be an IED exploding underneath the tank as well.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:40 am

    It looks like a catastrophic internal explosion of the ammo load. There is no sign of mine detonation, yet missile or something.
    In cadres, there is something that might reassemble the cumulative stream, but it is visible after the detonation only.
    A tank would have to be penetrated side to side, but there is nothing showing an incoming missile from the other side.
    It can be its own HEAT ammunition that detonated inside and formed a stream, but we have seen multiple times that they don't have BK rounds loaded. So my guess, it is just something ripped off the tank, making dust.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:40 pm

    It can be launched by the fighter jet from outside enemy airspace. This system will capitalize on a slower speed, fuel efficient air vehicle for ingress, while retaining highly energetic air-to-air missiles for end-game target engagements. Basically it will perform the same role as that of a F-22 Raptor.

    So if it has amazing range and performance and accuracy wouldn't a ground launched version be cheaper and more effective because it wont lead to Ukrainian aircraft further away from the front line to be shot down just in case?

    Raptor does not have missiles with enough flight range to operate outside Russian AD forces and still hit Russian aircraft...

    AI algorithms take care of controlling the missile, pilot has no role to play.

    So it is a slow missile and not a drone... I am sure the self defence equipment on the fighters and helicopters designed to deal with optically guided IR missiles will work just as well on this drone too.


    Strategically speaking I suspect russians just don't destroy enemy stuff as soon as it is detected because then it lets them think they have a chance to win since their hardware still works and they keep sending reinforcement. Russians wants the frobt to be a meatgrinder and let ukrinians keep attacking all day long. If they are to destructive on their rears, ukros will go on defensive which would complicate russians war since they would need to attack defended positions.

    Another factor is if you spot something and keep watching it you will see where they hide it each time something Russian gets close... destroying the building they house it in has the chance of killing the engineers that keep it working as well as extra missiles stored for it and other vehicles that are important for the system to work.

    Ironically if you can defeat the support vehicle that can often reduce the performance of the system and make it useless over time.

    South Ossetians definitely want Russia to expand its presence there too, and probably join Russia together with their bros, the Russian republic North Ossetia, which has a say in the Duma and is doing quite well. South Ossetia never had a say in Tbilisi (and never wanted anything to do with Tbilisi anyway). Might happen soonish, because it's a f**k it situation, all concessions and goodwill Moscow's been engaged for ages in has returned nil.

    The thing about the carrot and the stick method is that if you over use the stick and they never see the carrot they start thinking pulling this wagon for you all day is probably not worth the effort.

    As the war is going on, you are notoriously disbelieving things proven right.
    What's more, all of them are just logical.
    Proving the great effectiveness and flexibility of the Russian supply chain, and what's more - the fact that they have proven allies.

    What is the point of denying that?

    If Russia chooses to say that is what they are doing then that is fine, but with the only sources of such claims being western or pro western then I choose not to believe them.

    on top I'd add that extra russia russia russia shipments could enable Russia to free up production capacities for manufacturing more complex products

    Not sure getting 122mm and 152mm shells from other places is going to let Russian producers of 122mm and 152mm shells start making drones instead, or thermal imagers, or ballistic missiles.

    It just means they build up their stocks faster and will have more available if they need them.

    They seem to be improving their tactics and using shells rather more efficiently anyway so over time they might need less to get a specific job done.

    Beloved Russia can't buy weapons, as it is the world champion in weaponry production.

    Not at all... but highly likely is not a high enough bar for anything but the court of the western media.

    Even if they aren't using the ammo and just removing it from the market to prevent the US and its third parties from buying up using fake companies so it can be sent to Kiev it is not a bad idea, but let Russia state that...

    buying stuff for a margin of the localized cost because of the PPP leverage, and making your own enterprises free to produce more advanced stuff - is only a win.

    It is pretty unlikely they will shut down ammo production in Russia because they are outsourcing to other countries... they have large inventories to restock... put the home made stuff there and test this foreign stuff and decide whether it is good enough to continue buying in the future... perhaps they should set up ammo production factories in India and make some ammo for themselves and for India... that would generate more income for Russia and also help them spend their excess Indian currency....

    The explosion starts on the left side. Can be seen in the video. It's 5s after firing. I think a mine is rather unlikely. How long does the car charger take? 7-8 seconds? Possibly a loading error with interior detonation? A frontal penetration of the tower is also rather unlikely. At least we haven't seen such destruction yet. Especially not with a T90SM.

    With ammo located in an underfloor autoloader the risk of an ammo explosion is obvious and difficult to deal with... other than fitting every vehicle with a set of mine rollers... which limits their speed too much.

    And let's be real, these places shouldn't be rebuilt anyway, let it be a natural preserve and move tf on

    Such places could be bypassed and let them come out when they run out of food and water and ammo...

    It looks like a catastrophic internal explosion of the ammo load. There is no sign of mine detonation, yet missile or something.

    It was firing at enemy positions yet the commander had his entire upper body out of his hatch and was not looking in the direction they were firing...

    I would say it was a land mine that set off the tanks ammo in the underfloor autoloader... one big boom.


    Last edited by GarryB on Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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    JohninMK
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 27 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49

    Post  JohninMK Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:10 pm

    This post is from MoA and is from an Israel thread. I have posted it here because it makes a general point on those who rule us but more importantly it gives context to the last para which is, IMHO, an on the money prediction on what the Ukie strategy may turn out to be in Ukraine. As we have seen since WW2 the Nazi strategy is generational.

    "Posted by: Rune Denmark | Oct 9 2023 9:02 utc | 687

    >I'm trying to look for an end-game for Hamas here. What is it they hope to accomplish. Assuming they act rationally.

    I explained this in my previous comment but I'll elaborate. Hamas is indeed a parasite on the Palestinians, just like all governments. Sorry if I offend those here who think Russia and China good, USA and Israel bad, but when I say all, I mean all. But that's only have the story. Without parasite governments, we'd have parasite warlords and mafia gangs. Some parasites are better than others. IMO, Hamas is a worse than average parasite.

    Anyway, first objective of any organism, parasite or otherwise, is to survive, and that applies to Hamas, Israel, USA, Ukraine, Russia, etc. When survival is at stake, the parasite government will sacrifice its host population without compunction. This is true for all the governments I listed. There are no truly good governments. There are only less stupid or less exploitative governments: bad, badder, baddest.

    Hamas is threatened by extinction if the Saudi-Israeli deal goes through and then other Muslim governments make deals with Israel and increasingly regard the Palestinians as an annoying nuisance that everyone outside the Palestinian concentration camps wishes would just disappear. Eventually, the world will turn a blind eye as Israel uses n river and divide and conquer techniques to infiltrate the Palestinians and exterminate everyone who has rebellious tendencies. Remaining Palestinians will then be shipped off to Dubai or wherever to work as minimum wage laborers, replacing Pakistanis.

    Best way to prevent this scenario is to provoke a brutal Israeli war against the Palestinians. Yes, most of Hamas will die, but the organization will survive and become stronger. It's a desperate strategy but they have no other choice.

    Ukraine is in the same position, BTW. Provoking Russian atrocities against west Ukraine is the best way to create a new generation of Ukrainian terrorists in western Europe and Canada. So even if the Russia atrocity destroys Ukraine today, it will rise from the ashes 30 years from now. Expect Ukraine to try provoking such atrocities.

    Posted by: Revelo | Oct 9 2023 10:58 utc | 702"

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    Isos
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 27 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49

    Post  Isos Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:25 pm

    For the government it is true but generally populations don't follow that logic. Israel is hated by most muslims, specially in Saudi Arabia.

    A saudi/israeli agreement would change some economical aspects but not the situation. If they let israeli destroy palestine, the king can go to the USA quickly because the population will revolt.

    Same for ukraine. Most of the population wants just a better economical situation and certainly not be the dogs of the US or go at war with Russia. Most of the maidan people just beleived blindly in the US promises of better paychecks and economical growth. They didn't participate in that to do a war with russians.

    It's just a matter of time before they kill Zelensky by themselves instead of going to a certain death against russians.

    For the Hamas thing, casualties are the same in both side more or less. The ostages will prevent any big war. It's not a sacrifice at all.

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