Russian special military operation in Ukraine #61

How does staying close to the target help? They are close not to remain safe but because they don't have long range rockets or missiles to engage the target.

Because an R-73 has a minimum engagement range of 300m from a launch pylon on an aircraft in normal flight... from a ground launch it is probably 4-500m where it wont hit what it is aimed at.

The Ka-29 has all sorts of super cheap guided missiles it could use if money needed to be spent to destroy this target... if it was approaching a large Russian ship they could use Ataka or Shturm missiles for a kill easily enough... those missiles were serially mass produced in enormous numbers for decades.

Hunting down the target with cannon and machine gun fire is cheaper and is more fun.

Direct fire weapons are not designed to be used at such very short ranges so practise against real targets in such situations is important and useful for developing skills and tactics... the Ka-29 is ideal because it is a naval helicopter and has excellent manouver performance and a large cabin and a selection of gun armament options.

They should just start operating naval Ka-52 helicopters to take down drones.

Light troop helicopters with door gunners are often superior in this sort of role than actual gunships.

Using an attack helicopter would be like the police using an actual tank.

Orion drones would be better.

It is rather unlikely they send waves of Ka-29 helicopters out to search for sea surface drones to attack... more likely other platforms like Il-38s and other types are used to detect things on or near the surface and depending on the speed and range of the target and the location of ships and aircraft in the region they will send either Su-30 aircraft or Ka-29 helicopters or Hind helicopters or Hip helicopters to intercept and take down the target.

They could probably send Ka-52s or even Su-57s if they wanted to but Su-30s and Ka-29s will get the job done and post entertaining videos that some will misunderstand no doubt.

The Ka-29 can carry a variety of weapons other than the twin 23mm cannon pod and the nose mounted rifle calibre four barrel gatling and door mounted HMG options.

There are several different gun pod options, including with 30mm grenade launchers or HMG and rifle calibre gatling guns, as well as 23mm and 30mm cannon options.

If they wanted they could even use AT-3 ATGMs for the job to use up old missile stocks, or use newer longer ranged missiles as required.

Ugroza is probably not available so laser guided S-8 and S-13 is out of question. But the Ka-52 could have fired a Vikhr or Ataka laser guided ATGM at this boat to completely destroy it.

If you watch the video again you will see the sea surface drone is a tricky little bugger and can manouver very well, so even with a guided missile if the target turns at the last second even a guided weapon might miss.

This means that the best option is actually guns or cannon and firing bursts of automatic cannon at the target gives you a spread of impacts that mean even last second manouvers wont save the target.

Of course this also takes practise and this is what this crew appears to be doing... getting in some practise and testing the options available to them.

On paper and in theory any of the three gun systems they used in this engagement should have been able to get the job done, though the rifle calibre four barrel gatling might have been a bit light, the HMG and 23mm cannon should have gotten the job done, and if the video had continued we likely would have seen that happen.

Perhaps the pilots were specifically targetting the R-73 because they were not sure what would trigger its launch. Once the R-73 is destroyed the remaining boat could be engaged by an ATGM.

An R-73 is about 70-80kg of solid rocket fuel and about 10-15kg of HE, so if they hit it it would probably destroy the drone as it burned and exploded.

Attacking this sort of highly manouverable target with a supersonic guided missile would be problematic... actually one of their many suicide drones released out the door of the Ka-29 would probably be the cheapest and simplest way of taking out this drone, but as I mentioned practise using cannon and machine guns is useful no matter how you intend to proceed.

These drones are designed for range and performance but the critical and sensitive parts might be armoured to protect from small arms fire and fragments, so HMG and 23mm cannon fire are probably needed to defeat such a target.

A burst of 23mm cannon fire would result in impacts all around the point of aim but at such close ranges working out where the rounds hit can only come from practise... which is what they are doing.

Most sighting systems are not intended to be used at such close ranges so a bit of guesswork is always needed and that is what this practise will be all about.

You can see especially with the HMG out the cabin door the rounds are impacting ahead of the target so over such a short distance he is obviously giving too much lead.

Ukraine has very few such naval drones. It's not really a matter of what destroys them but what is used to detect them.

Best cost/effective option is Orion with a side looking radar that already exist but maybe not in naval version for above water use. Il-38 is too expensive to be used very often.

To destroy them they can use su-24 with 100kg bombs. Even a miss by tens meters would destroy them and they certainly have a stock of 50-100 such bombs to be used against them. Ukraine won't use more than that in a year, even during the whole war.

They should just start operating naval Ka-52 helicopters to take down drones.

Russia already showed the best way of dealing with that stuff, by launching a FPV drone out of a helicopter.

During the operation, about fifty operators and instructors were destroyed

When you see such news, maybe the guys in the heli are taking their time to destroy that thing because some
ELINT unit is tracking down the operations room of the sea drones.

But the Ka-52 could have fired a Vikhr or Ataka laser guided ATGM

The Ka-29 can use ATGMs.

A civilized armed forces, you know ...

How boring. Let´s rush things!

Sometimes you really amaze me how to combine a giant general knowledge with a total lack of practicals coming out of a regular service and routines.
How the shit really works ..

Agree with the rest of the post, but this is a bit harsh.

Who doesn't remember Blue Thunder and think a helicopter gunship is the best way to defeat this sort of target...

Except obviously hollywood puts us wrong as usual... door guns where you can actually look down the barrel of the gun and fire directly at the target is easier for close in shooting and even firing hundreds of 12.7mm HMG rounds is cheaper than launching a single rocket... but of course most important... as I pointed out... the Ka-29 is a troop transport aircraft... there could be 3 or 4 guys in the rear of this helicopter each taking turns with the HMG in the door mount getting practise and advice for shooting at this drone...

This is a useful bit of training for all involved.

They might be intentionally leading the target too far so everyone can have a shot...

There is not ship being directly attacked so it is a good opportunity to learn skills that will be useful when there is more than one or they are in shipping lanes and approaching ships.

Best cost/effective option is Orion with a side looking radar that already exist but maybe not in naval version for above water use. Il-38 is too expensive to be used very often.

Cost effectiveness is important but Il-38s are the standard MPA in the region and would be the normal platform being used around the Black Sea most of the time.

The operating costs are negligible... that is why they used a turboprop type, and the comparative costs of the damage this sort of weapon could inflict I would say it is worth the investment.

Remember the Il-38s wont just be looking for sea surface drones, but also small landing boats and flying drones and of course anti ship missiles and other threats.

To destroy them they can use su-24 with 100kg bombs. Even a miss by tens meters would destroy them and they certainly have a stock of 50-100 such bombs to be used against them. Ukraine won't use more than that in a year, even during the whole war.

I am not sure a high speed aircraft like an Su-24 could get a 100kg bomb close to a high speed manouvering target like a small jet boat... even a guided bomb would struggle... and the cost of an Su-24 mission would likely exceed the cost of HMG shells and helicopters that are already there.

Russia already showed the best way of dealing with that stuff, by launching a FPV drone out of a helicopter.

Have to agree and would say this makes the Ka-29 the best choice for the job too... though maybe to save money perhaps the attack model of the Ansat, or perhaps an armed version of the Ka-226 might be considered.

When you see such news, maybe the guys in the heli are taking their time to destroy that thing because some
ELINT unit is tracking down the operations room of the sea drones.

That is an important factor too... you can see the target evade the helicopter in near real time so tracing satellite links and other recon platforms in the region could be part of the Russian operation.

The Ka-29 can use ATGMs.

There was a version of the Ka-29 with a 30mm 2A42 cannon too...

They can carry small bombs as well, but an air launched version of the shorter ranged Bulat missile would also be useful as a naval drone killer.

If you watch the video these speed boats are nippy tricky little buggers that would be difficult targets for pin point accurate weapons like guided missiles.

A spread of cannon shell impacts around a point of aim allows for last second evasive manouvers on the part of the target... it is just a question of timing your bursts to get a hit in a vulnerable place to defeat it.

The Orion and the X-БПЛА missile was used successfully early in the SMO and video material was released, but has since gone off the radar a bit.

Maybe they want the Orcs to keep loading R-73s on their surface drones... a good way to get them to waste them.

There was a version of the Ka-29 with a 30mm 2A42 cannon too...

It´s not a version as such, the Ka-29 can be outfitted with a cannon + rocket launchers and ATGMs
as attack heli or with some gatling gun in the nose in a transport confuguration.

ALAMO wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
"Says Volodimir Zelensky".  

And by the way, aren't the negotiations with Russia banned in a formal way?

There is a view that, with no President and a compromised Rada, there will need to be an election in Ukraine before there is anyone with sufficient legal standing to agree and sign any Agreement on the terms of surrender, sorry, peace.

But the military, as per WW2, can agree a ceasefire.

NATzO will be playing games with "who is legitimate" in any Ukria negotiations. So, more sham BS. Russia needs to give these negotiation clowns the middle finger.
Saddam's regime was never given a chance to negotiate.

I bet the gun fodder on the front line don't realise that virtually their only way out alive is to head east.