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Yes China is decades behind the US in submarine design 
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PLA Navy and Naval Air Force
Mir- Posts : 4121
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Isos- Posts : 11667
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You just prove to be a fanboy with this picture that shows nothing.
lancelot- Posts : 3190
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Isos wrote:You just prove to be a fanboy with this picture that shows nothing.
That is the PLAN's latest Type 093B SSN. Just shows how much you know about the Chinese Navy.
The Chinese currently have the largest nuclear sub shipyards in the world. Larger than the ones at Sevmash. They finished building those facilities a couple years ago. Do you think they built those shipyards just to stand idle?
You also need to look at a depth map of the area between Taiwan and continental China. Those are shallow waters, where SSNs would be sitting ducks.
The Chinese have boatloads of SSKs which would be way more stealthy in that kind of environment, and they have a lot of Y-8Q anti-submarine aircraft.
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Arrow
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hat is the PLAN's latest Type 093B SSN. Just shows how much you know about the Chinese Navy. The Chinese currently have the largest nuclear sub shipyards in the world. Larger than the ones at Sevmash. They finished building those facilities a couple years ago. Do you think they built those shipyards just to stand idle? wrote:
We don't really know how advanced the Chinese submarines are. They're probably not as advanced as the Russian 955A or 885M. But Russia is the clear leader in this area.
They don't lead in electronics... Taiwan is actually the leader for production and most best products are US. wrote:
They have advanced enough electronics to have very good submarines, similar to Russia where their submarines are considered the most advanced in the world, while the Su-57 has more or comparable electronics to the latest F-35. Here electronics are no barrier.
lancelot- Posts : 3190
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From the satellite photos of the Type 093B it likely has pump jet propulsion. And from a model of what is likely the Type 093B it also likely has VLS.
The photos of the model predate the construction of the actual boat.
Their shipyards can easily build 2 such submarines a year once they reach peak capacity. They have enough room for building 12 submarines simultaneously.
The photos of the model predate the construction of the actual boat.
Their shipyards can easily build 2 such submarines a year once they reach peak capacity. They have enough room for building 12 submarines simultaneously.
Last edited by lancelot on Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Arrow- Posts : 3903
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The jet pump doesn't mean anything yet. Although it may be quieter in some areas. The Yasen M has a regular screw and is considered the most advanced SSN in the world. Of course, China will definitely catch up with the leaders in nuclear-powered submarines.
Isos- Posts : 11667
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[It's a type 093B. And then what ? That thing is no better than Victor 1s. Sea Wolf and Virginias will torn it apart.
1000m is not shallow at all. Just like I said if chinese navy goes west of Taiwan it will be crushed by the Virginias.
Who cares about their shipyards size. They still don't produce good SSNs let alone very good ones like Yasen or Sea Wolf.
Those aircrafts can secure around their cost but as soon as they go further away they are at risk of getting some air to air missiles on their face. Since their carriers can't face US subs they would be left with no support. Just look at Ukrainian sky where no one tries to fly, now imagine if one of the parties is the US navy and its 600 fighter jets...
Even Chinese are very well aware they don't have the capability to face the US navy further away from the first island chain that includes Taiwan. They bet on 2050 to surpass them which is not soon.
Of course they have missiles to target US bases and ships bit so does the US. And they don't seem to think they would win.
1000m is not shallow at all. Just like I said if chinese navy goes west of Taiwan it will be crushed by the Virginias.
Who cares about their shipyards size. They still don't produce good SSNs let alone very good ones like Yasen or Sea Wolf.
Those aircrafts can secure around their cost but as soon as they go further away they are at risk of getting some air to air missiles on their face. Since their carriers can't face US subs they would be left with no support. Just look at Ukrainian sky where no one tries to fly, now imagine if one of the parties is the US navy and its 600 fighter jets...
Even Chinese are very well aware they don't have the capability to face the US navy further away from the first island chain that includes Taiwan. They bet on 2050 to surpass them which is not soon.
Of course they have missiles to target US bases and ships bit so does the US. And they don't seem to think they would win.
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Isos wrote:[It's a type 093B. And then what ? That thing is no better than Victor 1s.
The "and then what?" part is that the even more advanced Type-95 is already building.
About the "no better than Victor 1's" part...
lancelot- Posts : 3190
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Look at that map again. The deepest parts of the sea between mainland China and Taiwan is like 100m deep and for the most part isn't even 50m deep.Isos wrote:[It's a type 093B. And then what ? That thing is no better than Victor 1s. Sea Wolf and Virginias will torn it apart.
1000m is not shallow at all. Just like I said if chinese navy goes west of Taiwan it will be crushed by the Virginias.
Who cares about their shipyards size. They still don't produce good SSNs let alone very good ones like Yasen or Sea Wolf.
The first US submarine with pumpjet propulsion was the Sea Wolf. This Type 093B submarine probably has noise levels on par with the Virginia.
Try checking out the range of their DF-26 anti-ship ballistic missile. The Chinese can track US surface ships with either their satellites, or with their UAVs. And they can hit them all the way to Guam.Isos wrote:Even Chinese are very well aware they don't have the capability to face the US navy further away from the first island chain that includes Taiwan. They bet on 2050 to surpass them which is not soon.
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The first US submarine with pumpjet propulsion was the Sea Wolf. This Type 093B submarine probably has noise levels on par with the Virginia. wrote:
Just because it has a pump jet doesn't mean it has reached the Virginia's level of quietness. There are many factors that affect quietness. Comparing submarines is often speculative, especially of the same generation.
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Isos going ballistic in 3...2...1...
GarryB- Posts : 41148
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Why all the bullshit guys?
Lsos mentioned that for them the US SSNs will be a challenge... is he wrong?
China has made enormous strides in electronics and production and all sorts of technology, but even they would say having advantages in some areas and not in others can be a problem.
I am sure the Russians would like to help them out if they need that, without giving away their entire hand too, and of course with their inferior steel we really don't know how the US subs will actually perform in combat situations... they might not commit them at all... there does not seem to be much interest in sending US soldiers to die to save Kiev... would they be more interested in sending them to die in Taiwan?
Lsos mentioned that for them the US SSNs will be a challenge... is he wrong?
China has made enormous strides in electronics and production and all sorts of technology, but even they would say having advantages in some areas and not in others can be a problem.
I am sure the Russians would like to help them out if they need that, without giving away their entire hand too, and of course with their inferior steel we really don't know how the US subs will actually perform in combat situations... they might not commit them at all... there does not seem to be much interest in sending US soldiers to die to save Kiev... would they be more interested in sending them to die in Taiwan?
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ALAMO- Posts : 7999
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GarryB wrote:Why all the bullshit guys?
Lsos mentioned that for them the US SSNs will be a challenge... is he wrong?
Well, he is.
Depending on the scale of the conflict we are discussing, the most probable one is the Taiwan invasion.
Which I hardly believe will ever happen, as the Chinese need it in working condition.
In this scenario, all the way to Taiwan is shallow waters as the guys mentioned.
In such conditions, any big submarine is a sitting duck. Chinese conventional subs will operate there with much better results, as those are optimized for the role.
Chinese speed up in submarine technology at an unprecedented level.
Building in shocking numbers, and the improvement process is constant.
We are again dealing with facts we know versus imagination.
What we do know, is that the Chinese own world's biggest and most efficient shipbuilding cluster, which is on a scale more than 200 times bigger than US based one.
PLUS TWO HUNDRED TIMES.
What we do know, is that they are leading now in computing power, and the Chinese mathematicians are second only to Russkie at the moment.
What we do know is the fact, that they are leading in dozens of key technologies - which is an official opinion of the Congress committee.
Considering that against all of that, they are somehow backward in some technology, is a matter of religious high which is worthless to comment.
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lancelot- Posts : 3190
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Some of the Chinese SSKs even have AIP. The Chinese bought the technology for making the Stirling engines from the Swedes. And then made their own improved version with more power.
China is the biggest manufacturer in the world of lithium-ion batteries. So I would not be surprised if their latest SSKs also used lithium-ion batteries. They have also built hydrogen fuel cell powered railway locomotives. So they also have that technology to use in subs if they want to use it.
They probably have some of the most advanced and quietest SSKs in the world.
If anything the US might try to provoke a conflict with China since the longer they wait the harder it would be for the US to fight the Chinese.
China is the biggest manufacturer in the world of lithium-ion batteries. So I would not be surprised if their latest SSKs also used lithium-ion batteries. They have also built hydrogen fuel cell powered railway locomotives. So they also have that technology to use in subs if they want to use it.
They probably have some of the most advanced and quietest SSKs in the world.
If anything the US might try to provoke a conflict with China since the longer they wait the harder it would be for the US to fight the Chinese.
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Mir wrote:
The "and then what?" part is that the even more advanced Type-95 is already building.
About the "no better than Victor 1's" part...
More advanced than type 093 certainly not more than a Yasen or Virginia.
It's well admitted they still don't have anything better than a Victor 1 in terms of stealthness.
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lancelot wrote:
Look at that map again. The deepest parts of the sea between mainland China and Taiwan is like 100m deep and for the most part isn't even 50m deep.
The first US submarine with pumpjet propulsion was the Sea Wolf. This Type 093B submarine probably has noise levels on par with the Virginia.
Try checking out the range of their DF-26 anti-ship ballistic missile. The Chinese can track US surface ships with either their satellites, or with their UAVs. And they can hit them all the way to Guam.
That's what I said, they can reach Taiwan but further than that they would need to face US sub against which they are not ready at all.
DF-26 can't hit subs. US can impose easily a embargo on Chinese ports right now if we don't take nuks in the equation.
lancelot- Posts : 3190
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You need to read more recent reports. The Chinese still keep the Type 091 in service. For whatever reason some people think all their submarines have a similar noise level. The Type 091 is the best they could produce with 1970s level technology. The Type 093 is a 2000s submarine. And the latest 093 variants are supposed to have much quieter propulsion and reactor. The 093B was launched last year. They are building six of them.Isos wrote:It's well admitted they still don't have anything better than a Victor 1 in terms of stealthness.
All Chinese major surface combatants from the corvettes to the cruisers have variable depth sonar, towed sonar array, and helicopter pads. All of them are connected via satellite link. And like I said they have the Y-8Q ASW aircraft with magnetic anomaly detector, SATCOM, and internal weapons bay to directly target submarines.Isos wrote:That's what I said, they can reach Taiwan but further than that they would need to face US sub against which they are not ready at all.
DF-26 can't hit subs. US can impose easily a embargo on Chinese ports right now if we don't take nuks in the equation.
The only thing the Chinese still lack is enough Type 093B SSNs. But that is nothing they cannot solve given enough time.
Mir- Posts : 4121
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Isos wrote:
It's well admitted they still don't have anything better than a Victor 1 in terms of stealthness.
Pure horse manure from your ass but please enlighten us with the facts
Btw - those early Chinese nuclear subs that Lancelot mentions had a lot of French tech inside.
Last edited by Mir on Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
lancelot- Posts : 3190
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The Type 093B should be competitive enough against the Virginia as it is. And it is meant to be replaced by the next generation Type 095 eventually. Which will be a whole new hull type.
The Type 093B seems to be an intermediate design where they are testing all their latest kit in terms of power plant, propulsion scheme, VLS cells, likely also sensors, and electronics. Before they make the new 095 hull with those systems in it.
The Virginia is just a low cost mass produced version of the Seawolf. So I don't know why people think it's home kind of hot shit. The only thing it has is numbers.
The US has 23 Virginia class submarines, 3 Seawolf class, and 24 Los Angeles class.
The Los Angeles class submarines will be headed for the scrap yard soon. And the Chinese will be able to build SSNs faster than the US once they ramped up their facilities. They will likely surpass the US Navy in SSN capacity around the late 2030s.
The Type 093B seems to be an intermediate design where they are testing all their latest kit in terms of power plant, propulsion scheme, VLS cells, likely also sensors, and electronics. Before they make the new 095 hull with those systems in it.
The Virginia is just a low cost mass produced version of the Seawolf. So I don't know why people think it's home kind of hot shit. The only thing it has is numbers.
The US has 23 Virginia class submarines, 3 Seawolf class, and 24 Los Angeles class.
The Los Angeles class submarines will be headed for the scrap yard soon. And the Chinese will be able to build SSNs faster than the US once they ramped up their facilities. They will likely surpass the US Navy in SSN capacity around the late 2030s.
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GarryB- Posts : 41148
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Well, he is.
So China should ignore US SSNs and just invade now I guess?
Amazing how it is so easy to defeat the US... I would have thought countries would have been doing it all this time if it was so simple and easy.
China has x number of mathematicians and sub warfare is all maths... that must be why the British and Germans were so good at it because their engineers were shit but their mathematicians were amazing...
Sub warfare is more than 1 plus 1 equals 2.
China has very smart people and lots of money and production capacity, but they don't have a lot of experience at sea and many of their projects have experts from other countries paid to advise and assist in their design and construction and to develop tactics for their use.
They have enormous potential, but it would not be any sort of walkover...
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GarryB wrote:
So China should ignore US SSNs and just invade now I guess?
If that is your opinion, then that is good for you. Don't link it with me anyhow.
lancelot wrote:
The Virginia is just a low cost mass produced version of the Seawolf.
Actually no.
It is a Los Angeles III.
Made as cheap as possible - which still means twice the price of Russkie build Porsche equivalent. And probably three times the price of a Chinese SSN.
Mir- Posts : 4121
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Things have radically changed for China's submarine designs since they acquired Kilo subs from Russia. Kilos are known to be extremely silent, and apparently China copied that technology from the Kilo and incorporated it into the Type-93 design. All indications are that they are efficiently silent - especially compared to the Type-91.
Since then the Type-93 has been improved to a great extend. The Type-93B's hull design is completely different and it appears to have taken a leaf from the Borey-M. The Type-093's acoustic electronics also seems to be on par with current generation designs. This include towed array and flank array sonars. Armament also includes cruise missiles.
All indications are that these subs are extremely quiet and well equipped for the job. The much improved Type-95 is around the corner.
Mods should consider moving all this talk on Chinese subs to a more appropriate thread. My bad for posting a pic on a new Chinese submarine!
Since then the Type-93 has been improved to a great extend. The Type-93B's hull design is completely different and it appears to have taken a leaf from the Borey-M. The Type-093's acoustic electronics also seems to be on par with current generation designs. This include towed array and flank array sonars. Armament also includes cruise missiles.
All indications are that these subs are extremely quiet and well equipped for the job. The much improved Type-95 is around the corner.
Mods should consider moving all this talk on Chinese subs to a more appropriate thread. My bad for posting a pic on a new Chinese submarine!
Last edited by Mir on Fri Oct 18, 2024 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ALAMO- Posts : 7999
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Let's start with the fact, that the Chinese followed the exact path of the Soviets.
They are building in numbers, and improving projects in the process.
As they have acquired 636 in 1997 and 1998, respectively - it affected the construction of Type 039 already. Only one sub was built in vanilla configuration, followed by the 39G improved version that has been commissioned since 2003.
In 2002, they acquired a modernized 636 with a Club system - which was followed by the next series of improvements made with 039 commissioned 2006 on.
An interesting fact is, that all Type 039 subs have a sonar system originated in the French Thales TSM 2233.
Which is still considered good enough to be used in export Scorpene.
But nobody would dare to contest the quality of Brazilian Scorpene sub, right?
After 039, Chinese introduced the next gen 039A, followed by 039B, and finally since 2021 - 039C ...
All share the same number, but those are totally different subs, with the ones made 20 years ago being on pair with the global trends!
As for the latest variant, they operate three boats already, with the next five ongoing - in 3 years ...
Edit : I have just memorized something.
Type 039C was revealed "by accident" in July 2022, when an official WeChat profile of the Chinese Navy published a photo with it hanging as a background.
It was immediately called "an A26 ripoff" by the western shitstream.
The fact that A26 had a keel-lying ceremony only three weeks or so before revealing the pictures of 039C being operational - hasn't bothered any of the western cocksuckers
They are building in numbers, and improving projects in the process.
As they have acquired 636 in 1997 and 1998, respectively - it affected the construction of Type 039 already. Only one sub was built in vanilla configuration, followed by the 39G improved version that has been commissioned since 2003.
In 2002, they acquired a modernized 636 with a Club system - which was followed by the next series of improvements made with 039 commissioned 2006 on.
An interesting fact is, that all Type 039 subs have a sonar system originated in the French Thales TSM 2233.
Which is still considered good enough to be used in export Scorpene.
But nobody would dare to contest the quality of Brazilian Scorpene sub, right?
After 039, Chinese introduced the next gen 039A, followed by 039B, and finally since 2021 - 039C ...
All share the same number, but those are totally different subs, with the ones made 20 years ago being on pair with the global trends!
As for the latest variant, they operate three boats already, with the next five ongoing - in 3 years ...
Edit : I have just memorized something.
Type 039C was revealed "by accident" in July 2022, when an official WeChat profile of the Chinese Navy published a photo with it hanging as a background.
It was immediately called "an A26 ripoff" by the western shitstream.
The fact that A26 had a keel-lying ceremony only three weeks or so before revealing the pictures of 039C being operational - hasn't bothered any of the western cocksuckers
Last edited by ALAMO on Fri Oct 18, 2024 10:56 am; edited 3 times in total
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Arrow- Posts : 3903
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It looks like China will soon have the largest and most modern fleet of nuclear submarines. In terms of quantity, outclassing the US and in terms of technology, perhaps even Russia, or equaling them in terms of the level of advancement of nuclear submarines. Russia will probably not go for such large numbers as China. And the largest fleet of conventional submarines.
lyle6- Posts : 2885
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The large nuke sub reached perfection with Yasen-M armed with hypersonic Zircons...
For Russia the next step is fully robotic fleets of nuclear powered UUVs with infinite endurance a la Poseidon. Every nuclear armed combatant will have one or a couple such drones assigned and stealthily tailed for the entire duration of their combat duty. When hostilities start its just a matter of flipping the kill switch and these drones will take down their targets in one quick succession.
For Russia the next step is fully robotic fleets of nuclear powered UUVs with infinite endurance a la Poseidon. Every nuclear armed combatant will have one or a couple such drones assigned and stealthily tailed for the entire duration of their combat duty. When hostilities start its just a matter of flipping the kill switch and these drones will take down their targets in one quick succession.