Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

But how the heck are these in use and Gorshkov that uses same thing has issues?

Well this is the great mystery...
One rumor is that it only sort of works on the 20380s ie they can hit relatively straight, slow, close &/or high flying things so it 'works' but won't have a chance of taking out more complex targets that the system is supposed to be able to deal with.

I keep on hoping/expecting to see some news about upgrading the Furke (essentially the Pantsir-S1 radar) to something more powerful (like at least the Pantsir-S2 radar) but I can understand prioritising other stuff first.

hoom wrote:

But how the heck are these in use and Gorshkov that uses same thing has issues?

Well this is the great mystery...
One rumor is that it only sort of works on the 20380s ie they can hit relatively straight, slow, close &/or high flying things so it 'works' but won't have a chance of taking out more complex targets that the system is supposed to be able to deal with.

I keep on hoping/expecting to see some news about upgrading the Furke (essentially the Pantsir-S1 radar) to something more powerful (like at least the Pantsir-S2 radar) but I can understand prioritising other stuff first.

Steregouchy use uses the small missiles, 9M96 which according to some articles can have IR seeker against stealth fighters. The problem, from what I understood, is with guidance of the bigger 9M96E2 missiles. The radar are not the same too. Gorshkov uses bigger and newer radar.

Maybe they tried to use the same software on both while they need new one for Gorshkov.

the two 9m96 missiles are active radar guided and have radar noses... they have both been shown in public before.

the smaller 9M100 missile uses IIR guidance and will be used across the services... as a short range AAM for fighters and bombers for the air force, for a short range SAM for the Army, for a CIWS missile for the navy for ships and possibly even subs.

Shtil-1 SAM system on fire!    

Rocket firing of the frigate "Admiral Makarov"

Interesting report of the Zvezda TV channel on May 2, 2017 on missile firing of the Shtil-1 anti-aircraft missile system passing State tests in the Baltic Sea of ​​the third built for the Russian Navy frigate modified project 11356 Admiral Makarov. A simultaneous launch of four anti-aircraft guided missiles (9M317M or 9M317MA) was made.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2585710.html

This would explain the delay.

I guess you really can teach old dog new tricks...

Now that is a multiple-launch!
Apparently the Polish intel ship we see several shots of got in the way a few times.

hoom wrote:Now that is a multiple-launch!
Apparently the Polish intel ship we see several shots of got in the way a few times.

Kurva!

PS. Russia does not make anything.

What do you think of my version of Grigorovitch frigate ?? I added 1 more UKSK instead of the RBU luncher and 3more gibka for air defence. Paket nk insead of RBU can be placed like on Steregoushchy so it has full anti ship and anti sub capabilities and has a new line of defence with IR missiles.

Isos wrote:What do you think of my version of Grigorovitch frigate ?? I added 1 more UKSK instead of the RBU luncher and 3more gibka for air defence. Paket nk insead of RBU can be placed like on Steregoushchy so it has full anti ship and anti sub capabilities and has a new line of defence with IR missiles.

Grigorovitch-M?

AlfaT8 wrote:

Isos wrote:What do you think of my version of Grigorovitch frigate ?? I added 1 more UKSK instead of the RBU luncher and 3more gibka for air defence. Paket nk insead of RBU can be placed like on Steregoushchy so it has full anti ship and anti sub capabilities and has a new line of defence with IR missiles.

Grigorovitch-M?

Isos class Just a fan work made in 10 min. I've always found that this class was too light.

[quote="Isos"]What do you think of my version of Grigorovitch frigate ?? I added 1 more UKSK instead of the RBU luncher and 3more gibka for air defence. Paket nk insead of RBU can be placed like on Steregoushchy so it has full anti ship and anti sub capabilities and has a new line of defence with IR missiles.


Well.... if you are 14, then.... that's a great idea and god bless you.

On a serious note these ships could relay benefit from something like a Pantsir of Palas at some point as an upgrade, they are making them standard on Karakut's and they will be going to the Black Sea fleet.

On a far more optimistic note, I know that you can't place weapons system just because there seams to be enough place for them, but, considering the placement of the VLS on other ships there seams to be enough place for them on the platform where the RBU-6000 is, especial if they are placed in line with the long axis of the ship (like the Buyan's), in place of the 2 large torpedo tubes you can place Paket-NK, but the price, it's gonna go up and up and up.

Is there any definitive news on the faith of Adm. Butakov and Istomin, are they relay going to India, seam king of stupid since now the Saturn is up and ready with the turbines, we all know how badly they need those ships in the Mediterranean.

Well the original 3 for India had Kashtans so there is certainly space for Palash/Pantsir-M.
I do like the idea of adding Gibkhas on the hangar sides as a cheap/quick/light way to help fill the gap between Shtil-1 & AK-630.

@Miroslav I don't think the price will go up. Gibka are just Igla S. The UKSK luncher is just a luncher with some wires to connect it to the computers. There is no new systems just more munitions. And Paket NK is already produced for smaller corvettes so it's not a problem to put it on a frigate.

I do like the idea of adding Gibkhas on the hangar sides as a cheap/quick/light way to help fill the gap between Shtil-1 & AK-630.

I do like it too. The system is totaly outside of the hull so you can put it anywhere you want and it is totaly invulnarable to electronic warefare systems. They can even produce bigger missile with longer range as it's not used by a man.

Essen launched a couple of Kalibr off Syria at ISIS

According to Yantar shipyard director A. Rakhmanov:

-Construction of the pr. 11356 frigates will resume in 2018
-The construction was earlier halted because of supply of Ukrainian engines
-The ships will now receive Russian engines
-The ships will not be sold to India
-Russian Navy needs these ships and is waiting for them

http://iz.ru/news/722507

Wohoo!

I do like it too. The system is totaly outside of the hull so you can put it anywhere you want and it is totaly invulnarable to electronic warefare systems. They can even produce bigger missile with longer range as it's not used by a man.

Interesting idea... perhaps the SA-9 and SA-13 missiles and later missiles like Morfei could be added, but I suspect Verba would be the best upgrade as it has a better seeker and is a similar size so the same number or more missiles could be fitted.

The SOSNA-R high speed two stage laser beam riding missile looks interesting too and could be used on Palma mounts as a cheap fast accurate weapon out to about 10km range...

Would be excellent against enemy helos...

I just hope that they have enough common sense to actually do some upgrades to the weapons now that they have time for it, its not just money this time it's time alone, they need these ships.

I originally wrote here that "the smartest and quickest thing is to put Pantsir since everything else requires to much restructuring" but now I sea I was wrong, the pictures of the Indian Talwar class indicate that the their Kashtam modules require a slightly raised platform around the Helicopter hangar, about 1,5m above the platform where the current AK-630's are located, it must be because of the vertically placed missiles in the two re-loaders, I suppose the same applies for the Pantsir.

If anything they build the Talwars so they have all the blueprints that they need, so there is no major brainstorming to be done.

Another thing I don't get, if it's true, is why are they "continuing" with the building in 2018, was the building stopped recently, the smart thing is to continue building/restructuring so thy are all ready as son as possible, the plan was, if I remember, to get the remaining two at the level of Admr. Butakov.

miroslav wrote:I just hope that they have enough common sense to actually do some upgrades to the weapons now that they have time for it, its not just money this time it's time alone, they need these ships.

I originally wrote here that "the smartest and quickest thing is to put Pantsir since everything else requires to much restructuring" but now I sea I was wrong, the pictures of the Indian Talwar class indicate that the their Kashtam modules require a slightly raised platform around the Helicopter hangar, about 1,5m above the platform where the current AK-630's are located, it must be because of the vertically placed missiles in the two re-loaders, I suppose the same applies for the Pantsir.

If anything they build the Talwars so they have all the blueprints that they need, so there is no major brainstorming to be done.

Another thing I don't get, if it's true, is why are they "continuing" with the building in 2018, was the building stopped recently, the smart thing is to continue building/restructuring so thy are all ready as son as possible, the plan was, if I remember, to get the remaining two at the level of Admr. Butakov.

India ships have the single luncher shtil missile system so they need something bigger than 2 Ak-630 in case of an big attack of many missiles. Russian ships have VLS so they can fire all missile in matter of sec and intercepte every missiles. Most ships have 8 anti ship missiles on them so your ship need to be able to destroy an attack of 8 missiles at the same time, I think.

Isos wrote:

miroslav wrote:I just hope that they have enough common sense to actually do some upgrades to the weapons now that they have time for it, its not just money this time it's time alone, they need these ships.

I originally wrote here that "the smartest and quickest thing is to put Pantsir since everything else requires to much restructuring" but now I sea I was wrong, the pictures of the Indian Talwar class indicate that the their Kashtam modules require a slightly raised platform around the Helicopter hangar, about 1,5m above the platform where the current AK-630's are located, it must be because of the vertically placed missiles in the two re-loaders, I suppose the same applies for the Pantsir.

If anything they build the Talwars so they have all the blueprints that they need, so there is no major brainstorming to be done.

Another thing I don't get, if it's true, is why are they "continuing" with the building in 2018, was the building stopped recently, the smart thing is to continue building/restructuring so thy are all ready as son as possible, the plan was, if I remember, to get the remaining two at the level of Admr. Butakov.

India ships have the single luncher shtil missile system so they need something bigger than 2 Ak-630 in case of an big attack of many missiles. Russian ships have VLS so they can fire all missile in matter of sec and intercepte every missiles. Most ships have 8 anti ship missiles on them so your ship need to be able to destroy an attack of 8 missiles at the same time, I think.

Yes that is generally true, but only half of the Indian Talwar's have the Kashtan the others have the AK-630, take into account that most ship (western ones) can launch only 4 Harpoons in one salvo DIRECTLY, while the other 4 need to make some sort of a programed 180 degree turn, so you're not gonna have a real saturation effect.

Note: As far as I know a Harpoon missile can be programed to do that, correct me if I am wrong here.

In any case the Grigoroviches VLS Shtil-1 is much more capable that that of the Talwars, probably in the electronic department too, but the 24 missiles is right there on the border of what is enough (consider sustained attacks), the system can track 12 targets with two missile guided to each target, but if you count that they might use the Shtil missiles for a low priority surface target in order not to waste the Onyx missiles that having one more Shtil 12 pack would be the real solution.

Since I doubt they will be placing another 12 missile VLS Shtil launcher, having a Pantsir-N, that on it's own can take care of 3 subsonic missiles, would mean a lot, also there is a surface strike missile in the development for the Pantsir with a "big" warhead so the versatility is substantial.

There always is the AK-630M2 (Duet version) that is definitely the best "bang for your money" upgrade.

Yes that is generally true, but only half of the Indian Talwar's have the Kashtan the others have the AK-630, take into account that most ship (western ones) can launch only 4 Harpoons in one salvo DIRECTLY, while the other 4 need to make some sort of a programed 180 degree turn, so you're not gonna have a real saturation effect.

Not really an issue. They can be programmed to follow different routes so that they come to the target at the same time. For russian disign they could mix supersonic missile, kalibr subsonic and final supersonic and Uran subsonic so that subsonic missiles arrive first and are targeted and in the small timelapse supersonic missiles come and are not targeted and can penetrate the defences.

In any case the Grigoroviches VLS Shtil-1 is much more capable that that of the Talwars, probably in the electronic department too, but the 24 missiles is right there on the border of what is enough (consider sustained attacks), the system can track 12 targets with two missile guided to each target, but if you count that they might use the Shtil missiles for a low priority surface target in order not to waste the Onyx missiles that having one more Shtil 12 pack would be the real solution.

They have the main gun for soft targets. Another pack of missile would be a nice thing. If they manage to make a better VLS that is compact like on US cruisers it would be possible, plus they are cold lunch.

Since I doubt they will be placing another 12 missile VLS Shtil launcher, having a Pantsir-N, that on it's own can take care of 3 subsonic missiles, would mean a lot, also there is a surface strike missile in the development for the Pantsir with a "big" warhead so the versatility is substantial.

There always is the AK-630M2 (Duet version) that is definitely the best "bang for your money" upgrade.

I don't think there is space for Pantsir. They have a big reload of missiles under the deck and where the ak-630 are I don't think there would be enough space.

Close-in weapons have a bad history. Soviet design ship never used them (Syria Egypt/Israel wars, Lybia nanushka against USA, US Phalanx targeting other US ships ...). Maybe in a frigate with more and better radars they will have more time to use them but till today they weren't succesfull.

A combo Shtill/Tor would be nice. Tor missile are smaller but they lack a good compact VLS. If they do something for that they could fit them anywhere on the ship. Israeli Sa'ar corvette (around 70 m) can fit 64 barack 1 which has the same dimensions as the tor missile.

They have the main gun for soft targets. Another pack of missile would be a nice thing. If they manage to make a better VLS that is compact like on US cruisers it would be possible, plus they are cold lunch.

I meant for targets beyond 15km, but yes the primary purpose of the Shtil is air defense.

I must add that if the rumors are true, and that they where testing an active homing missile version on the Admr. Makarov and if the real range is 70km with it, then 24 missiles is enough and they should upgrade something else.

I don't think there is space for Pantsir. They have a big reload of missiles under the deck and where the ak-630 are I don't think there would be enough space.

Yes, that's way I said in my previous post that the Kashtan on the Talwars sits on a platform that is higher than the one that the AK-630 are located on (compared to the ones that have the AK's), about 1.5 meters judging buy the pictures, some restructuring is a given no mater what they choose.

The main thing is this, there is little chance that they are going to change something on the Admr. Butakov since it's to far gone, but the last 2, maybe, I don't think that Pantsir takes any more room that Kashtan and the extra work is justified.

Some additional info about the resume of progress on the Grigorovich frigates

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Russia to resume the construction of the "last three" Project 11356 frigates in 2018

The United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) will resume the construction of the last three Project 11356 frigates in 2018. Earlier, the construction of these ships was suspended due to Kiev's refusal to supply gas turbine power plants. The decision to resume the work was made following the preliminary testing of the latest Russian gas turbine units M70FRU and M90FR. According to experts, the advent of these ships will significantly expand the Navy’s capabilities in the Mediterranean Sea, the Central and North Atlantic, and the Arctic zone, the newspaper Izvestia writes.


At present, two of the six ordered ships of this class are operational with the Navy. The frigates Admiral Grigorovich and Admiral Essen are part of the Black Sea Fleet. Admiral Makarov is undergoing the official tests. The remaining three frigates of the "Admiral" series - Butakov, Istomin, and Kornilov - are currently mothballed in varying degrees of completion at the Kaliningrad-based Yantar Shipyard. They were intended for the Baltic Fleet. Their construction was frozen because of Ukraine's refusal to supply the DS71 and D090 power plants manufactured by Zorya-Mashproekt, Nikolaev, Ukraine and previously paid by Russia. It was assumed that the "Admirals" would be sold to the Indian Navy because of the inability to complete them. Aleksey Rakhmanov, the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, told Izvestia that the construction of the ships will be resumed in 2018, after the appropriate tests and follow-on development to accommodate the new power plants.

"The decision has been made and R&D work will be required," explained Rakhmanov. However, due to the fact that design proceeded with regard to the groundwork laid by Russian gas turbine builders, no major modifications to the architecture of the ships will be needed. "We do not think that these R&D works will be so significant as to throw us back a few years ago."


As noted by Rakhmanov, the timing depends not only on gas turbine units - the shipbuilders will have to resume contracts on all major systems. "Therefore, it is very important here that we are able to comply with the warranty periods, the service life of equipment and the corresponding storage life," the head of USC said.

As Izvestia was told at the Navy's Main HQ, the tandem power plant configuration of two M70FRU gas turbine engines is being considered as the core project. According to preliminary calculations, this should ensure the maximum power output of 14,000 hp. In this case, the ship will be able to move at a speed of 30 knots and the cruising range will be 4850 nautical miles (9,000 km). This is quite enough to go from the Baltic Fleet’s main base at Baltiysk to Russia’s Tartus naval base in Syria without fuel replenishment.


Expert Alexander Mozgovoy told Izvestia that the decision to complete the Project 11356 frigates was welcome. "Our Navy really needs them and we would have lost three good ships in case of selling them to India," said the expert. "These are general-purpose ships that can operate in the Mediterranean, in the central Atlantic and in the north. We are in desperate need of such ships today as all the large Soviet-era ships are badly worn and their service life is nearing the end. In fact, there is no alternative to the Project 11356 frigates."

Project 11356 frigates are designed to attack enemy surface ships and submarines both in the near and far maritime zones, counter air targets, both independently and as part of a task force. Frigates of this type are armed with a 100mm A-190 gun, strike and air defense missile systems, including Kalibr and Shtil, torpedoes. The ship can carry a Kamov Ka-27 helicopter and its versions. The ship's displacement is 3620 tons and its length is 124.8 meters. The full speed is 30 knots and the cruising range is 4850 miles.

Comment
The main problem with this plan is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can delay the completion of ships, more than the manufacture of the M70FRU gas turbine engines at NPO Saturn.

According to available information, the completion for the Russian Navy of three frigates of the modified project 11356 with the Russian all-mode main power plant based on gas turbine engines M70FRU is included in the draft State Armament Program for 2018-2025.

Source: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/june-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5253-russia-to-resume-the-construction-of-the-last-three-project-11356-frigates-in-2018.html

They were intended for the Baltic Fleet.

Something lost in translation? All 6 were supposed to go to BSF.

In fact, there is no alternative to the Project 11356 frigates.

Well, other than 20385, 20386, 22350, 22350M...
Or this is an acknowledgement that those won't be properly functional or producable in noteworthy numbers for some time.

If the latter I turn again to the idea of making a 2nd group of 6, initially split them 3 to each fleet, then concentrate to 6 each in 2 fleets as more advanced designs come online.

hoom wrote:.............

In fact, there is no alternative to the Project 11356 frigates.

Well, other than 20385, 20386, 22350, 22350M...  
Or this is an acknowledgement that those won't be properly functional or producable in noteworthy numbers for some time................

Nah, they say this for almost every ship type.

Kinda like naval version of ''no foreign analogues'' shtick...