The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

macedonian wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:I would agree if the discussion was about Syria or Argentina or Cuba or whatever but the discussion is about Eastern Ukraine and Russian people and don't through out this shame that they have no Russian pasports because this excuse is absolutely disgusting.
So in such case Russia can and is obliged to act unilaterally and decisively. Tactics are probably acceptable when dealing with third parties but against your own people is not to be tolerated.
If you see someone insulting your daughter you will not intervene just because he is taller and stronger? How pathetic.
I said, my strategy may not be the most effective, but if I was Putin I would had razed Kiev to the ground already from February and every day it passes I feel like I was all too right from the very beginning.

Oh, I've mentioned my opinion on how Russia should be proactive time and time again!
And I do agree with you...

But the point still stands...when everyone abandoned India and refused to sell weapons to them TO DEFEND THEMSELVES Russia stepped in.
And what to they get in return: Lukewarm support by India.

And China's most advanced weapon systems are Russian made. Russia does get more support from China, but not nearly enough (IMHO).

Now see 'The West': They ALL AGREE on sanctions on Russia, even countries like Germany, France and Italy, though they stand to lose  A LOT! Russia doesn't get that kind of support from its 'allies' AT ALL! So, Russia is alone at this.

I'm not saying that Russia is right on how it acts (I've suggested otherwise)...I'm saying they don't have ANYONE REALLY BACKING THEM, as oppose to how America that has loads of countries that it can count on...some puppets (like yours and mine) and some not really standing up to them (like India and Brazil)...

well.. there are solutions. or ruther one solution to all this..
to give full support on IRAN and clear out the desert part btwn Syria and Iraq  from ISIS. That move will change the world as almost all energy sources will be under the potensial influence of RF. That is if IRAN becomes dominant in the gulf. This will make the mind of Quatar and even S Arabia to start thinlking changing sides , and if they dont they will have to face IRAN.
Also India and China will understand that they have to be closer friends..

An other canning idea is to threaten one way or another the secured flow from Nigeria and Angola..
So .. there are lot of options inetrnationaly to paly with if RF gets unhooked from this EU-friendship ideology has at the moment.
IRANs power has been under estimated and has not played yet.
-------------------------

in the margin of the above.. BRAZIl is almost facing a coloured revolution .. so they might think about it after the games..

arpakola wrote:

macedonian wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:I would agree if the discussion was about Syria or Argentina or Cuba or whatever but the discussion is about Eastern Ukraine and Russian people and don't through out this shame that they have no Russian pasports because this excuse is absolutely disgusting.
So in such case Russia can and is obliged to act unilaterally and decisively. Tactics are probably acceptable when dealing with third parties but against your own people is not to be tolerated.
If you see someone insulting your daughter you will not intervene just because he is taller and stronger? How pathetic.
I said, my strategy may not be the most effective, but if I was Putin I would had razed Kiev to the ground already from February and every day it passes I feel like I was all too right from the very beginning.

Oh, I've mentioned my opinion on how Russia should be proactive time and time again!
And I do agree with you...

But the point still stands...when everyone abandoned India and refused to sell weapons to them TO DEFEND THEMSELVES Russia stepped in.
And what to they get in return: Lukewarm support by India.

And China's most advanced weapon systems are Russian made. Russia does get more support from China, but not nearly enough (IMHO).

Now see 'The West': They ALL AGREE on sanctions on Russia, even countries like Germany, France and Italy, though they stand to lose  A LOT! Russia doesn't get that kind of support from its 'allies' AT ALL! So, Russia is alone at this.

I'm not saying that Russia is right on how it acts (I've suggested otherwise)...I'm saying they don't have ANYONE REALLY BACKING THEM, as oppose to how America that has loads of countries that it can count on...some puppets (like yours and mine) and some not really standing up to them (like India and Brazil)...

well.. there are solutions. or ruther one solution to all this..
to give full support on IRAN and clear out the desert part btwn Syria and Iraq  from ISIS. That move will change the world as almost all energy sources will be under the potensial influence of RF. That is if IRAN becomes dominant in the gulf. This will make the mind of Quatar and even S Arabia to start thinlking changing sides , and if they dont they will have to face IRAN.
Also India and China will understand that they have to be closer friends..

An other canning idea is to threaten one way or another the secured flow from Nigeria and Angola..
So .. there are lot of options inetrnationaly to paly with if RF gets unhooked from this EU-friendship ideology has at the moment.
IRANs power has been under estimated and has not played yet.

Got to say: YOU MAKE SOME GREAT POINTS THERE!
And I agree with most of them. Great thinking man!
  

http://lifenews.ru/news/134960

Путин поручил МИДу ответить на вторжение украинских БТР в РоссиюПрезидент потребовал, чтобы внешнеполитическое ведомство выступило с демаршем в связи c нарушением государственной границы.

====================



===========================

http://lifenews.ru/news/134958
Ополченец ЛНР рассказал, как сбил военно-транспортный самолет УкраиныПо предварительной информации, подбитый транспортник задымился и улетел в сторону луганского аэропорта

macedonian wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:Oh as a side note. If I was the prime minister of Greece I would say STAY AWAY OF RUSSIA.
They can't and they don't care to back up their friends. Either they are weak or too soft or too cold either way they are not suitable to commit your interests with them.
This might explain hell a lot...

Can't really argue with you there. I understand what you mean
Though, if I was the PM of Macedonia, I'd say: support Russia even to our own peril! Fuck America!
Not because Russia is more important than my own people, but because...when the time comes: It'll be US ASKING FOR RUSSIA's support.
Screw this west thing! Ain't never gonna work! It's just good PR, nothing else.
And I'd rather die a meaningful death, than lead a meaningless life...

But the point is that if you are in need America might probably come, Russia will never come.....both in individual level and national level.
Taking the lonely rout is your only choice with your beliefs but only Switzerland did that and we are talking about a very mature very advanced society...

Hannibal Barca wrote:But the point is thbat if you are in need America might probably can, Russia will never come.....both in individual level and national level.
Taking the lonely rout is your only choice with your beliefs but only Switzerland did that and we are talking about a very mature very advanced society...

Well, regretfully(  ), I only speak for (and represent) myself here...

On a more serious note though, WHAT CAN WE (and I mean both of us, and both our countries) expect from America?!
Regime change?! Albanian independence in Western Macedonia or North-Western Greece?! An IMF ran country?! What's the best scenario?!
Especially about Greece - whom do you think the US will choose between Turkey and Greece, knowing that being allied with Turkey is much more important to them??!!

The Americans want to control you and me both (well they want to control everyone in Europe really).
Perhaps the Russians will help neither you nor me, but AT THE VERY LEAST they wouldn't be AGAINST us!
Russia might never be here to help, but America is here to take your country away!

Ukrainian APC with troops breaches Russian border

RT wrote:At least one Ukrainian armored vehicle crossed the Russian border with Ukraine Friday overnight and stopped in the Rostov Region, according to Russia’s Security Service. The military abandoned the vehicle and returned to Ukraine. The Ukrainian armored vehicle stopped in near the village of Millerovo, said the head of the press department of the Federal Security Service (FSB) in Rostov Region, Vasily Malaev.  Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the Foreign Ministry to issue a formal protest to Ukraine’s government, said his press secretary Dmitry Peskov. There are also reports that there was not one, but two armored vehicles. A source from the FSB told LifeNews Channel that two armored vehicles crossed the Russian border. Initially just one APC entered Russian territory, however it broke down, LifeNews was told. It was discovered by the Border Service, however, Russia’s troops failed to take the Ukrainian military personnel captive as another armored vehicle came to the rescue from Ukraine’s Lugansk Region.
After that the Ukrainian troops fled the territory, returning to Ukraine, leaving the dsabled vehicle behind in Russia.
In response to the incident, the Ukrainian Border Service said that the military was surrounded by self-defense forces so they were forced to cross the Russian border to reach new locations of their units, NTV TV channel reported. Border authorities also assured that all 26 border officers returned to Ukraine via another checkpoint.
Earlier on Friday, NATO warned that if reports that Russian tanks have breached the Ukrainian border are confirmed, it would be serious escalation of the conflict.
"We have seen reports that Russian tanks and other armored vehicles may have crossed the border into eastern Ukraine. If these reports are confirmed, this would mark a serious escalation of the crisis in eastern Ukraine," NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said on Friday.

Now this is just turning into Monty Python material...what's Russia trying to prove here?!
Our border guards aren't all that competent?!

Disappointing thing this.

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Edit:
Forgot to share the link:
RT

Macedomian wrote:
It has no one REALLY backing it.
If guilt is to be assigned, than Brazil and ESPECIALLY China and India should share part of the blame for not TRULY backing Russia, and content themselves with the lukewarm support they offer...

Oh man.. ohman.. Hurray..

You just forced me to write a comment..
I just cant help stop commenting on it

I call this to the point.
Russia is going solo on this . Thats the whole crux.
You take population of China 1.5 billion and and India another 1.5 billion and still not able to respond to the U.S terrorists.
Well Russia's population well I would better not put the figure.
Its population is a fraction of Soviet times.

With Friends like India and China Russia has to go solo and not try any misadventures that would put too costly on Kremln.
Going solo and taking on the might of U.S and E.U financial muscles would be a sure short (shortcut, short circuit) way to disaster.

Asf wrote:

Hodorkovski's

Hodakovski's

Hodor hodor.
GoT refference

gaurav wrote:

Macedomian wrote:
It has no one REALLY backing it.
If guilt is to be assigned, than Brazil and ESPECIALLY China and India should share part of the blame for not TRULY backing Russia, and content themselves with the lukewarm support they offer...

Oh man.. ohman.. Hurray..

You just forced me to write a comment..
I just cant help stop commenting on it

I call this to the point.
Russia is going solo on this . Thats the whole crux.
You take population of China 1.5 billion and and India another 1.5 billion and still not able to respond to the U.S terrorists.
Well Russia's population well I would better not put the figure.
Its population is a fraction of Soviet times. 

With Friends like India and China Russia has to go solo and not try any misadventures that would put too costly on Kremln.
Going solo and taking on the might of U.S and E.U financial muscles would be a sure short (shortcut, short circuit) way to disaster.

China is relying on US market, India is buying US weapons. Wow such support to Russia wow. Everyone except Russia is gargling US balls.

Regular wrote:
China is relying on US market, India is buying US weapons. Wow such support to Russia wow. Everyone except Russia is gargling US balls.

Bang on target man..   
well said .. the whole financial world except Russia .. licking balls.. of the pentagon..   

Russia may soon have another name .. disappearing population country
from 400 million population of Soviet Union.. it became 143 million with 70 percent pensioners..?? he..
What the heck..

It wants to takeon the might of wallstreet and pentagon colonies in E.U.. with this kind of labour force..

Thats why Russia stays cool .. good choice

because slavery of pentagon is what rules in the world today..

macedonian wrote:Ukrainian APC with troops breaches Russian border

RT wrote:At least one Ukrainian armored vehicle crossed the Russian border with Ukraine Friday overnight and stopped in the Rostov Region, according to Russia’s Security Service. The military abandoned the vehicle and returned to Ukraine. The Ukrainian armored vehicle stopped in near the village of Millerovo, said the head of the press department of the Federal Security Service (FSB) in Rostov Region, Vasily Malaev.  Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the Foreign Ministry to issue a formal protest to Ukraine’s government, said his press secretary Dmitry Peskov. There are also reports that there was not one, but two armored vehicles. A source from the FSB told LifeNews Channel that two armored vehicles crossed the Russian border. Initially just one APC entered Russian territory, however it broke down, LifeNews was told. It was discovered by the Border Service, however, Russia’s troops failed to take the Ukrainian military personnel captive as another armored vehicle came to the rescue from Ukraine’s Lugansk Region.
After that the Ukrainian troops fled the territory, returning to Ukraine, leaving the dsabled vehicle behind in Russia.
In response to the incident, the Ukrainian Border Service said that the military was surrounded by self-defense forces so they were forced to cross the Russian border to reach new locations of their units, NTV TV channel reported. Border authorities also assured that all 26 border officers returned to Ukraine via another checkpoint.
Earlier on Friday, NATO warned that if reports that Russian tanks have breached the Ukrainian border are confirmed, it would be serious escalation of the conflict.
"We have seen reports that Russian tanks and other armored vehicles may have crossed the border into eastern Ukraine. If these reports are confirmed, this would mark a serious escalation of the crisis in eastern Ukraine," NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said on Friday.

Now this is just turning into Monty Python material...what's Russia trying to prove here?!
Our border guards aren't all that competent?!

Disappointing thing this.

--------------------------------------
Edit:
Forgot to share the link:
RT

I hope Russia will repair this BTR and give it to Donetsk forces.

They could just left it at the DNR controlled border filled with some equipment like NVs Kevlar and ammo. Useful stuff, you know  

Any more info or any picture of Ukrainian Mi-24, which fall in Russian territory?

gaurav wrote:

Macedomian wrote:
It has no one REALLY backing it.
If guilt is to be assigned, than Brazil and ESPECIALLY China and India should share part of the blame for not TRULY backing Russia, and content themselves with the lukewarm support they offer...

Oh man.. ohman.. Hurray..

You just forced me to write a comment..
I just cant help stop commenting on it

I call this to the point.
Russia is going solo on this . Thats the whole crux.
You take population of China 1.5 billion and and India another 1.5 billion and still not able to respond to the U.S terrorists.
Well Russia's population well I would better not put the figure.
Its population is a fraction of Soviet times.

With Friends like India and China Russia has to go solo and not try any misadventures that would put too costly on Kremln.
Going solo and taking on the might of U.S and E.U financial muscles would be a sure short (shortcut, short circuit) way to disaster.

Hey, at least India and China can take comfort in the fact that they're not forced (or rather intimidated) into giving less support to Russia.
It's the 'European' countries that are the actual colonies of Washington, and just like in colonial times, act like mere puppets to the 'Great Empire'...
Imagine if your politicians (when asked on how they view the situation) stated: "Whatever America's stance is on the matter, we'll be sure to follow" (I shit you not, that's EXACTLY what one of our former PMs said on Iraq). (thank God, his party will probably NEVER win the elections here)
Now THAT'S HUMILIATION! China and India are not as nearly humiliated as are those that are considered 'close allies' (please read: toilet paper worth).  

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http://novosti-online.info/glavnye-novosti/135-informaciya-o-tom-chto-v-rostovskoy-oblasti-sbit-vertolet-vvs-ukrainy-yavlyaetsya-nedostovernoy.html. ??

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russian-federal-security-service-claims-russian-border-violated-by-ukrainian-aircrafts-in-rostov-region-351791.html

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Based on similar reports it seems to be a priority of the National Guard, where there is a significant number of Right Sector members, to target food, either for capture or for burning (arson). As far as I know attacks on food facilities (not just warehouses, also mills etc) are the only documented use of Grad and Hurricane rockets. Not on civilians so far.
The nearby fish farm was destroyed by pollution for no apparent military reason two weeks ago.
Another example, seemingly pointless attack on the "Perspektiv" feed elevators is here: http://arbaletfire.livejournal.com/209359.html

Apparently one Ukraine Airforce Helicopter and Combat jet Shot that crossed into Russian airspace..




https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUkraine/photos/pb.1452285018328179.-2207520000.1402687237./1510347589188588/?type=1

I don't think any pilot in their right senses will be fool enough to enter Russian Airspace..
I will not be surprised not remotely , if the entire thing was rigged ,to provoke the incident . ie... being remote controlled by NATO
or The Pilots being neither Ukrainians or Russians but muslins drugged taken from a jail ,and used as guinea pigs..or simply their lives of their families threatened if they do not invade Russia airspace..  

You guys make a mistake. You EARN respect. You DEMAND respect. You don't get it for granted!

Starting to see reports that a Ukrainian IL-76 with paratroopers on board was shot down by the militias in Lugansk.

Zivo wrote:Starting to see reports that a Ukrainian IL-76 with paratroopers on board was shot down by the militias in Lugansk.

Here's a link.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_14/Militia-shot-down-military-transport-aircraft-Ukrainian-Ministry-of-Defense-8551/

and a video—I had seen another video from the same camera a few days ago.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

Zivo wrote:Starting to see reports that a Ukrainian IL-76 with paratroopers on board was shot down by the militias in Lugansk.

Here's a link.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_14/Militia-shot-down-military-transport-aircraft-Ukrainian-Ministry-of-Defense-8551/

and a video—I had seen another video from the same camera a few days ago.

Look at the left side of the frame, from 1:10-1:23. There is what appears to be a missile.

The explosion was kind of Big for a plane.. unless it was transporting Bombs and munition.
Still don't understand the tactics of the Ukraine Army.. sending your paratroops to a zone heavily defended by manpads is suicide.
My bet is they were flying as high as they could to avoid missiles.. but they were hit by some long range manpad.. Whats the max atltitude of Igla and Igla -S ?


On a second question ..whats going on in Mariupol? The Kiev junta is singing victory and seems they took control of the entire city..
Not that the Anti-Kiev forces had much presence there.. albeit.

arpakola wrote:The local DPR headquarters have been captured in Mariupol. It's clear by now that someone or something in the DPR leadership is going wrong  

I don't think there has been much real, active fighting there recently, so there hasn't been a need for armed resistance forces... And the Novorus forces have been rather undermanned, so they were deployed where most needed: At the fronts threatening Donetsk/Lugansk, and the Russian border which is lifeline to supplies and volunteers. More recently there seems to be more volunteers, so it would make sense to reinforce Mariupol, but that that was not done so far does not indicate negligence, removing those fighters from the northern and eastern fronts might well have critically weakened those fronts. Clearly Mariupol does need better protection now, and hopefully they get it.

arpakola wrote:Based on similar reports it seems to be a priority of the National Guard, where there is a significant number of Right Sector members, to target food, either for capture or for burning (arson). As far as I know attacks on food facilities (not just warehouses, also mills etc) are the only documented use of Grad and Hurricane rockets. Not on civilians so far. The nearby fish farm was destroyed by pollution for no apparent military reason two weeks ago.  Another example, seemingly pointless attack on the "Perspektiv" feed elevators is here...

"Pointless" as far as targetting military targets, sure... Bigger picture, maybe not so pointless.  The whole basis of Novorussian movement is close ties with Russia, that they don't want to give up for empty EU promises.  When those economic enterprises are destroyed, then empty promises look better than nothing.  Without those enterprises functioning, jobs are gone, and those people will leave in order to survive... Leaving room for Kiev's (paid off) "patriotic-minded" ethnic Ukrainian settlers.  This distruction is far from "pointless", IMHO.

macedonian wrote:Yesterday BBC had a FRONT PAGE story with this as its TITLE:

BBC CLOWN MEDIA wrote:Kiev says three Russian tanks entered east Ukraine
Ukraine's interior minister has said that three tanks have crossed the border from Russia into rebel areas of the east and fighting is under way.

Today however, BURIED DEEP INSIDE THE ARTICLE they say:

BBC Clown Media wrote:Contrary to initial reports that the tanks are Russian-made T-72s, one of the most commonly used models in late Soviet times, rebels and bloggers have identified them as T-64s, an older model manufactured in Ukraine.

And that, my fellow forum members is propaganda 101.

Even that 'clarification' is obfuscating the reality: It doesn't matter where these are MANUFACTURED, it matters which country operates them.  While T-72 is operated by both countries, Russia has NEVER operated T-64.  They are also still obfuscating the fact that Kiev blatantly lied about this, calling them T-72's.  Kiev's lies are NEVER accounted for.  

Honestly, RT should make a webpage collating every lie of Kiev, showing how Western media reported it, and how/if they ever acknowledged that lie and corrected it. The vast majority are just swept under the rug, to be replaced by another set of lies... While still continuing to report Kiev claims as if they are at all credible.  Any Kiev claim should only be given alongside an assessment of Kiev's credibility, i.e. history of lying.

Incidentally, I think I was the latest Kiev-apologist "spin" was claiming that the T-64 was driven to Donetsk from Crimea... Not really sure if there were any T-64's left in Crimea, but obviously that would involve driving thru Kiev checkpoints at the 2 road crossings from Crimea, and thru Kiev-controlled territory in Kherson and Zaporizhia... So if that IS true, then Kiev has much worse problems than 3 tanks, they have border and internal forces in 2 more oblasts cooperating with separatists.

macedonian wrote:(oh, and if I was the PM of Macedonia...the very first thing that I'd do: TAKE DOWN THAT HIDEOUS MONUMENT OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT here in Skopje (with dynamite preferably), and put one of Saint Cyril and Methodiy instead of that..or the very first Slavic texts scriptures, or something similar...I'm sure we agree on that)

Sounds great... That whole farce just seems embarrassing, really, and a diversion from the real unique heritage they have to define them as a people/culture/country. I'm unsure why the more accurate term "Paionia" would not be better and less problematic, AFAIK nobody else now claims that term so it serves the basic purpose of a name (i.e. indicate one specific thing).  It's not like Alexander himself would have referred to the area as Macedonia... But there is even less known about the ancient Paionians (compared to ancient Macedon), so it is basically an "empty" name that can be unproblematically appropriated on solely geographic basis.  [/threadjack]

And the Ukrainian lunacy knob gets cranked past 11. Acting defense minister tells journalists people in self proclaimed republics will be put in filtration camps and if clear of wrong doing will be forced to settle in central and western parts of the country...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGZLUxtUnlQ

Pics of a peculiar camp being built near Nikolaev, central Ukraine. Local officials claim it is a camp for illegal immigrants, despite the fact that both seasonal and permanent net migration has been out of Ukraine, not into, for the past 15 years

Vann7 wrote:Apparently one Ukraine Airforce Helicopter and Combat jet Shot that crossed into Russian airspace..


I don't think any pilot in their right senses will be fool enough to enter Russian Airspace..
I will not be surprised not remotely , if the entire thing was rigged ,to provoke the incident . ie... being remote controlled by NATO
or The Pilots being neither Ukrainians or Russians but muslins drugged taken from a jail ,and used as guinea pigs..or simply their lives of their families threatened if they do not invade Russia airspace..  

I don't think they stray on purpose....there's fighting near the border during which they stray into Russia.

This mentioned helicopter, was apparently shot down over Ukr. territory and fell inside Russia.

...

Gorlovka was bombed today....reports of an aircraft shot down

Eyewitness account: http://vognebroda.net/ochevidcy-opolchencam-v-gorlovke-udalos-podbit-samolet-hunty-5403


Possibly a  Su-24 - the pilot might be captured

09:48 GMT:

Self-defense forces in eastern Ukraine have allegedly downed another plane - a SU24. The pilot is alive and currently being questioned, RIA Novosti reports.

RT

...

There's currently a battle with a Ukr. column in a town north of Lugansk

The column filmed earlier

Su-24 brought down near Gorolovka.
The pilot managed to catapult but was caught by seps and is being interrogated.

RT wrote:Ополченцы Горловки заявили, что сбили украинский СУ-24 и допрашивают пилота Представители ополчения из города Горловка заявили, что сбили украинский Су-24 и захватил в плен пилота.

Очевидец сообщил RT, что лётчика везут в УВД Горловки. Местные СМИ сообщают, что самолёт был сбит с помощью ПЗРК

RT Russian

At this rate Ukraine's Air Force will be virtually non-existent in the next two weeks or so.