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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    medo
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  medo Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:49 pm

    http://ipress.ua/news/za_try_dni_zbroyni_syly_vtratyly_try_vertoloty_81118.html

    Про це на своїй сторінці у Facebook повідомив волонтер Георгій Тука, оприлюднюючи інформацію з власних джерел.

    Так, 18 серпня зі стрілецької зброї був збитий український МІ-8. Екіпаж із Бродів Львівської області залишився живим.

    19 серпня терористи збили ще один МІ-8 із тим же екіпажем. Хлопці потрапили до лікарні. За словами Туки, лікарі кажуть, що льотчики будуть жити, але чи будуть літати - велике питання.

    20 серпня був збитий МІ-24 із екіпажем із Нового Калинова теж Львівської області. Вертоліт збили на висоті 6 метрів.

    In 3 days from August 18th to August 20th, UkrAF lost 3 helicopters. 2 Mi-8 and 1 Mi-24.

    http://www.iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/318774

    Источник в Минобороны Украины:: «Сепаратистами в течение последних трех недель было выбито более половины имеющейся ствольной и реактивной артиллерии нашей группировки. Если говорить конкретнее — с начала операции потеряно более 200 орудий и реактивных систем «Град» и «Ураган». Но самое страшное, что около трети из них попали в руки сепаратистов.

    При отступлении наших военных они [ополченцы] вытаскивают все, что способно стрелять на подконтрольную территорию и затем используют против наших войск. Я уже не говорю о бронетехнике: танках, БМП и БТР, которых по недавней справке из штаба АТО мы потеряли уже более 500 единиц. Для восполнения этих потерь мы вынуждены сегодня снимать с консервации на складах хранения технику третьей и четвертой категории. Это значит, что она хранилась по 30–40 лет. Ее состояние, мягко сказать, неудовлетворительное: оптические прицелы разворованы, двигатели заводятся в лучшем случае один из трех-четырех, провода наполовину сгнили… Наши предприятия, конечно, помогают как могут, но и они не всесильны, Запчасти надо заказывать в России». (Какая, бля, чертовская неожиданность! Просто подлянка пятой степени от этих "ватников" Smile) - прим. NDM)

    При этом, как утверждает источник в Киеве, самое катастрофическое положение — с авиацией ВСУ.

    «Ее у нас и так было немного способной летать. А теперь, после потери в ходе АТО почти всего, что летало — 32 самолетов и вертолетов, можно сказать, что ВВС Украины больше нет. Нет ни средств на ее восстановление, ни специалистов, которые бы это делали, да и запчастей теперь негде взять по известным причинам. Поэтому без нормальной огневой поддержки войска встали. Причем не только рядовые, но и офицеры отказываются вести свои подразделения на огневые точки. Если раньше поднимали людей в атаку призывами, то теперь будут только угрозами. Вот и вся «смена тактики».

    Ukrainian army lost 1/2 of their artillery and majority of planes in flying condition.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Feldmarszal Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:03 pm

    Anyone got info about the Hungarian T-72s sold to the Ukraine? Strange move, especially considering Orban's logical approach towards the conflict.
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    Post  medo Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:03 pm

    There are many lists of destroyed / lost Ukrainian equipment, but I think, none of them is full or correct. In all lists I missed MT-LBs, T-12 AT guns, Strela-10 SAMs,... Also, there is a question, if those tanks and armored vehicles in captured tank reserve base are included on lists or not. There were more than 200 peaces of armor, which Ukrainian army could not reactivate, but Novorussian army could. Anyway Ukrainian army lost enormous number of equipment, also have very big losses in personal. I wouldn't be surprised, if Ukrainian army have higher number of killed soldiers than Soviet army in Afghanistan, which lost around 12.000 soldiers.
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:08 pm

    Our news is funny. They are saying Russia is invading. But the thing is, they are invading with aid supplies to people..... Then US states they need to leave Ukraine immediately. What? Ukraine is 51 state of USA? Who are they to tell? As well, I do not see anyone else providing aid to Ukraine people whom are in need of it.
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    Post  Mike E Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:12 pm

    I thought you knew that transporting humanitarian aid is a "declaration of invasion"... - Yes, that was sarcasm.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:52 pm

    Feldmarszal wrote:Anyone got info about the Hungarian T-72s sold to the Ukraine? Strange move, especially considering Orban's logical approach towards the conflict.

    No confirmation so far that they were transferred to the Ukraine.

    A Hungarian online newspaper broke the story and even Lavrov and others chimed in on these reports, but there has also been conflicting information that claim that those tanks were on the way to some storage facility in Hungary.

    Orban has basically shied away from any critisism of Russia at all and has recently made a claim that the sanctions war is harming the EU more than Russia, going on to say that he's working to try and get rid of the sanctions along with a group of other similar-minded people in the EU power structures.

    All of this is no surprise; there was a poll taken a few months ago - apparently Hungary has highest proportion of sympathy to the rebels out of any country in Europe, something to that effect..
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:08 pm

    Zionist cheap tricks. This people really don't deserve even the bullet to execute them.
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:29 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Zionist cheap tricks. This people really don't deserve even the bullet to execute them.

    They need white Phosphorous shower, no sudden painless death.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:40 pm

    All of this is no surprise; there was a poll taken a few months ago - apparently Hungary has highest proportion of sympathy to the rebels out of any country in Europe, something to that effect..


    I bet in Greece sympathy is in excess of 80% but this is not enough. Not believe in cooked numbers, EU is a living hell! People are silent only because of the endless propaganda which speak day and night for 70 years now that Americunts (sorry GarryB couldn't resist  Laughing ) are the masters of the universe and will remain so until the end of time. Of course you have to add to this that until very recently there was no real alternative because every single industrial country was occupied from USA after the end of WW2 so it took quite some time for the rest to reinvent the wheel.
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:25 am

    sepheronx wrote:Our news is funny.  They are saying Russia is invading.  But the thing is, they are invading with aid supplies to people.....  Then US states they need to leave Ukraine immediately.  What? Ukraine is 51 state of USA?  Who are they to tell?  As well, I do not see anyone else providing aid to Ukraine people whom are in need of it.


    http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2014/08/22/wrn-ukraine-russia-convoy-crisis-magnay.cnn&hpt=hp_t2&from_homepage=yes&video_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F


    Yes the Pentagon is calling it an "Invasion". And that if Russia does not remove their trucks it will become in a
    "world isolation".. The White house also said before there is "no humanitarian crisis" in Ukraine.. and that kiev have
    been "Extremely careful" in avoiding civilians casualties.  Laughing 

    For the only reason civilians casualties are not in the millions is because they hide under their house basements ,lucky for them they have one.. so unless direct hits to their houses can target them.  in summary United states is becoming a pathetic joke in the world ,a Shameful Nation of hypocrisy ,same with its major allies.. Russia now should increase more than ever its humanitarian Aid in full defiance of NATO.. and it will be interesting to see if they manage to get a UN resolution to condemn the humanitarian aid.  

    Kiev now will be on a serious logistical problem ,strategical and world opinion problem.. all thanks to their  
    stubbornness in solving the conflict by force and not listening either the EU or Russia.. and instead listening US.
    Because Now Russia can not only send humanitarian aid.. but also can easily send weapons and anything the rebels need to finish the job.

    Strategic problem....because Kiev cannot waste their airforce in chasing 300 trucks spread all over eastern ukraine that they are not sure if have weapons or if have just food.  Smile  Kiev limited Airforce will be better spend in helping its army to enter in cities.

    Public Relations problem. ...because if kiev strike the trucks it will damage even more its world image for bombing humanitarian convoy. it will be NEWS worldwide and it will show how Kiev does not allow humanitarian be delivered to suffering civilians.  Smile 

    Logistical problem... Because if Kiev accept the humanitarian Aid.. and no longer bomb cities indiscriminately and ask the Red Cross to escort the convoy.. (just to be sure there are no weapons).. then they will need to declare a cease of fire.. of 1 or 2 weeks.. extending more the war.. making it more costly for them and with the big Risk that the Ukies Army just no longer wish to continue fighting and switch sides.

    Military problem... because if kiev does not agree with the aid...and does not facilitate Red Cross safety  , Russia could easily deliver all kind of weapons in the trucks.. including repair parts for their tanks.. but also easily smuggle thousands of new mercenaries inside or their special forces. Wink 

    In any case ,this is a Big Win for Russia..why? because now the Controversial Convoy will be top on the world headlines ,everyone will be discussing it.. Will Russian convoys will it have weapons? will it have food? what is inside? all this will generate interest in the world .IF NATO call it an invasion of Russia.. Even better .. because it will be an Humanitarian Invasion..and the world will be very interested to see if Kiev attack the trucks that everyone know are mostly food and medicines.. Cool  So it will create major expectation world wide (just like a military invasion does) and it will significantly help to counter the western propaganda.. because until now the west have been saying is how Russia fuel the violence and needs to be sanctioned.. but here you will have Russia helping civilians..  in my opinion it will be a major embarrassment this Russian convoy ,not only for USA and Kiev ,when the water and food is received by hundreds of thousands of trapped civilians.. and the world see it was really needed.. but a major embarrassment for United Nations ,for not being there giving that aid and instead had to be Russia doing their job. Cool

    Now what will be interesting to see is if this humanitarian convoy triggers a world reaction and people world wide goes to Russia and seek to send their humanitarian aid too.. it will be like a Gaza flotilla.. but in eastern Ukraine..and the most people united in the world to break the illegal siege ,and illegal war by Kiev on civilians womens and children. world opinion can push enormously kiev to stop the war.. they will be unable for example
    to continue the war if civilians calls for a Boycott to Ukraine products a boycott against their economy, until they stop the war.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:23 am

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-22/ukraine-perspective-europe


    This is a true masterpiece. I think we should put it as a must read to the forum rules!


    The eminent historian Niall Ferguson in an op-ed for the Financial Times (Friday August 1st) made a comparison between the events leading up to the start of WW1 and the Ukraine situation today. While the comparison is apposite given the 100-year anniversary of the former, these are very different times. The assassination of the successor to the Austria-Hungarian Empire in Sarajevo by anarchists was initially dismissed as a local difficulty in an obscure province, which had been annexed from the Ottoman Empire in 1906. While regrettable and unexpected to observers outside the Balkans there was no reason to suspect the chain of events that followed would lead to the greatest war in history.

    It is still a mystery to many historians as to how and why this event led to the slaughter of nine million people, and this uncertainty is admitted in Ferguson’s article. But his analysis of different parties to the original event pursuing their own vested interests without a grasp of the bigger picture certainly rings true of the Ukrainian situation today with regards to the West, embodied in a disparate committee called NATO. The similarity with the chaotic diplomacy that led to WW1 stops there: Russia under Vladimir Putin’s leadership appears to have a good grasp of its objective.
    The History Is Important

    The relevant history of Ukraine and the interests of the great powers go back to the Second World War, when it was fought over between Germany and Russia with tremendous loss of life. When Germany was finally defeated Ukraine ended deep in Soviet territory. Stalin subdued all nationalism by executing dissenters or transporting them to the gulags rarely to return. There was a high element of ethnic cleansing, and this affects political relationships to this day.

    It was inevitable that following the collapse of the Soviet Union Ukrainian nationalism would reassert itself. But Ukraine’s borders had never been fixed and its claim to be a well-defined state is dubious: at best it was no more than a federation of provinces that retained their individual identities over the centuries. Crimea was never part of Ukraine: it had been “gifted” by Khrushchev in 1954 it is said in a drunken moment. The eastern provinces of Luhansk and Donetsk are heavily populated with ethnic Russians. Luhansk held a referendum in early May and the organisers claimed that 96% of the population voted in favour of self-rule (allied to Russia) on a turn-out of 81%. A similar referendum in Donetsk claimed 88% in favour on a 75% turnout.

    Putin distanced Russia from these referendums, asking the breakaway governments to delay them, there being at that time a degree of diplomatic cooperation between Russia and the other G8 nations. This has now evaporated, but Putin had at least tried even though he probably smiled on the result. And everyone has forgotten that imperfect though the polling process might have been (lack of international observers, alleged intimidation of minorities etc.) there can be no doubt the clear majority in these two provinces wish to secede to Russia.

    Europe in the knowledge the referendum results were certain to back independence condemned this show of democracy when first proposed. European politicians have a fundamental problem with the idea that geographical parts of a country’s population might want political independence anyway. Think Basque separatists and think Scotland. So far as Brussels is concerned, the existence of individual member countries is a passing phase towards full political integration, so fragmentation is a retrograde step. What happened in Luhansk and Donetsk was counter to all the EU’s own statist ambitions which are behind the development and continuing integration of the EU. This sets the tone behind the automatic support Europe affords the Ukrainian government. Furthermore European politicians have an unquestioning belief in the benefits of EU membership and expect anyone who shares the EU’s socio-economic ideals to align themselves accordingly.

    So on the political level there is a natural dialog between the Kiev government desperate to escape the embrace of the Russian Bear and the EU. On a military level relationships and geopolitical interests are managed through NATO, which is funded mostly by the US. And as the principal financial backer, America expects and usually gets the deference from Europe it wants. America’s military and strategic objectives are however very different from the EU’s economic interests, because the EU is dependent on Russian energy, other raw materials and trade.

    There is however a military fly in the ointment so far as NATO is concerned. Ukraine is surrounded by Russia and Russian-supporting enclaves, including Belarus to the north and north-west of Ukraine, and the breakaway state of Transnistria, which lies along the border between Moldova and Ukraine. Only about 20% of Ukraine’s borders are with NATO allies. NATO simply cannot afford to have boots on Ukrainian soil, because its supply lines can be cut off by Russia. Perhaps for this reason the approach favoured by the west has been to undermine the Ukrainian relationship with Russia by encouraging Kiev towards both economic and military cooperation with the west, rather than upping the west’s presence.
    The Russian Dimension

    Russia’s reactions to NATO and the EU’s policy ambitions towards Ukraine have been perfectly logical and could easily have been foreseen by any competent analyst. In this context there are two elements to consider, Russia itself and the personality of President Putin.

    The Russian people have enjoyed a significant uplift in their standard of living under Putin, and a new middle class has emerged, which is growing and becoming wealthier by the day. Unlike more advanced, welfare driven economies this improvement has been real and not degraded by ever-accumulating debt. There is much that is wrong in Russia as western critics continually tell us, but the fact is that Russia is economically more resilient than its western counterparts, and her people are thankful and loyal to a strong leader.

    This strength is seriously underestimated by western economists who have been brought up in the ivory-tower world of Keynesian and monetarist economics. This is why they mistakenly think cutting Russia off from western capital markets is a severe punishment. It is not: the Russian leadership are not dependant on access to debt finance, not intimidated, and they feel no need to hurry their responses. Putin’s advisers are fully aware that implementing sanctions will harm NATO members far more than Russia, and nothing done so far is likely to affect their minimum objective of ensuring Ukraine does not become a vassal state of the west.

    Now that Russia has recovered her identity following the fall of communism her people naturally wish to secure and enhance it. They see their own “flesh and blood” in Luhansk and Donetsk being subjugated by a corrupt Nazi-sympathising Ukrainian regime. They know that America and NATO have been actively undermining Russo-Ukrainian ties having supported first the Orange Revolution and more latterly the fall of Viktor Yanukovych earlier this year. They also know that the west supported the neo-fascists in Yanukovych’s overthrow, reviving for the Russians memories of the terrible losses inflicted by the Nazis in the Second World War.

    At this stage to counter economic threats Russia is generally content with sending signals that she is not dependent on the west for trade. To this end she has concluded pan-Asian energy deals with China and India, deals that were in the pipeline, so to speak, anyway. Russia is activating her relationships within the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (the SCO), which was set up with China twelve years ago for this purpose. Furthermore, the population of full SCO members is set to double to over 3.5 billion people in September, when India, Pakistan, Iran and Mongolia become full members.
    Putin’s Personality

    President Putin, like many of Russia’s political in-crowd and some of the supporting oligarchs, is an ex-KGB officer. By all accounts he is controlling, hard-working, focused and dedicated. He is 5’6” tall which compared with western male leaders is noticeably short (though his Prime Minister, Dmitry Medvedev is only 5’3”). Short men often feel a need to assert themselves in the company of taller men, and Putin appears to exhibit these traits, with his annual holiday pictures depicting him as an action-man. As judo black-belt he throws larger men with ease and has been deliberately filmed doing so.

    Putin is a man who the west turned its back on when he would have personally wanted to be accepted at the top-table of world leaders. This is the second time: the first was the spat with the UK over the murder by polonium poisoning of an ex-KGB officer, Alexander Litvinenko, in London in 2006. The Russians refused extradition requests for the principal suspect, Andrey Lugovoy and four others. In July 2007 Britain expelled four Russian diplomats.

    It took a long time for the dust to settle from the Litvinenko affair, and it was only in the last eighteen months that the UK went out of her way to repair foreign relations with Russia, putting the Litvinenko affair behind it. So when the Ukrainian crisis broke six months ago there were very few entrenched vested interests at the political level between the UK and Russia, and therefore little invested on the British side to maintain relations.

    The western view of Vladimir Putin as portrayed by the media is often very wide of the mark. And it is with some irony that we observe left-wing European politicians denouncing this pragmatic ex-communist, but their instincts, that he is a modern mercantilist are correct. His wealth and position are built on the wealth of his people: socialism’s power by contrast is derived from wealth destruction, which explains much of the political divide. While European socialists have no coherent political and economic philosophy, Putin is a realist. He doesn’t care who he deals with, so long as the profit, or reason, stacks up. And it is Russia’s vast natural resources, making her the world’s largest exporter of energy and with monopoly or duopoly power in a range of strategically important elements that gives him the power to forge a favourable political settlement anywhere he chooses.

    We should think of Putin as the ringmaster in control of the Mackinder Heartland, which Mackinder summed up as follows:

    Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland;

    Who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island;

    Who rules the World-Island controls the world.

    The Heartland runs from the Volga to the Yangtze, and the World-Island is the inter-linked continents of Europe, Asia and Africa. Halford Mackinder’s paper was presented to the Royal Geographical Society in London in 1904. Since then the Russia he knew has been destroyed twice, once by the October Revolution of 1914 and once by communism. Yet still Russia survives, her power remains, and Putin is now master of it all.
    The Consequences for Western Europe

    The greatest concerns over Russia’s actions come from the countries that were previously suppressed by the Soviet Union and are proximate to Russia. These include Poland, the Baltic States, and ex-members of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire in middle Europe. Twelve of the twenty-eight NATO members were former communist satellites and very sensitive to Russia’s real or imagined territorial ambitions. They are a large bloc in voting terms, a frightened group sometimes aggressively supportive of intervention.

    The other main category of European states is the welfare economies of the original European Union, some of which have significant economic and financial ties with Russia. Best known in this group is Germany, dependent on Russia for 38% of her gas, 35% of her oil and 25% of her coal imports. There are no suitable alternatives in sight that could cover shortfalls of these magnitudes. Short-term, some extra gas could be piped from the Netherlands and Norway, two of her other import sources; but this is North Sea gas which is being rapidly depleted and demanded by other customers. Fracking from shale rocks is possible in North Rhine-Westphalia, but this takes time to establish and strong environmental opposition would have to be overcome. Then there are the commercial energy deals. Gazprom and Germany’s Wintershall, a subsidiary of BASF, have executed a large share swap. They jointly own Germany’s “Gascade” 2,000 km pipeline and Russia through Gazprom now controls all Germany’s gas storage facilities.

    Naturally, an increasingly wealthy Russian middle class buys large quantities of Mercedes, BMWs and VWs. Furthermore, Russia imports from Germany chemical products, food and agricultural products. It is estimated that one in ten German exporters traded with Russia last year exporting €36bn worth of goods. German companies have invested €16bn in Russia.

    France and Italy export about €10bn each to Russia, and import €11bn and €18bn respectively, mostly energy. France has also built one Mistral Class helicopter carrier which is undergoing sea trials and crew training, and a second carrier is in production. At President Holland’s insistence, this deal is excluded from the EU’s arms embargo: a good litmus test for the degree of EU solidarity.

    Western Europe’s banking system also has significant exposure to Russia. French banks have an estimated $50bn, Italian $28.6bn, German $23.7bn, British $19.1, Dutch $17.6, Swedish $14bn, and Swiss $6.8bn out of an estimated $184bn, or 76% of total foreign bank lending to Russia. Individual banks with high exposure include France’s Society Generale with $30bn, representing half this highly geared bank’s equity. Unicredit of Italy has exposure of $25bn, representing 40% of its shareholder funds. These are two prominent examples of potential casualties in a financial war with Russia. Furthermore European corporates also have substantial investments in Russia, notably BP.

    It is clearly not in the interests of the long-standing members of the EU to escalate a 'sanctions and financial conflict' with Russia. The European Central Bank will have almost certainly discussed contingency plans with the major regional central banks in the Eurozone, because the banking system might have to make available special credit and financing facilities, i.e. a rescue from a financial crisis if NATO goes much further down the sanctions route. This is why politicians are walking on eggshells, paying lip-service to America and the scared Eastern fringe members of NATO while hoping this goes no further.

    So long as this is the case it is clear that NATO members are powerless to stop Russia from wresting control of all or parts of Ukraine from the government in Kiev. Putin knows this; unfortunately it is not clear to us that the American government does. All in all it seems likely that after a period of slow-burn as Putin dictates the pace of developments, the political situation in Ukraine will deteriorate with some unhelpful nudges from Russia.

    In Part 2: The Rise of the East, we outline how the Ukrainian situation is likely to develop. Spoiler alert: Russia has a hand full of aces.

    And on a higher level, we explore the growing commitment in the East to charting its own course, one much more separated from western influence than seen in the past century. Increasingly, the East is challenging why the needs of its population of 5 billion should be so deferential to the West's 1 billion.
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:40 am

    Even Germany media , does not help a lot US ,NATO and kiev rhetoric...  
    Picture is worth of a thousand words.. This will be a major embarrassment to United Nations too.
    and a Big Public Relations Victory for Russia.  Wink 

    Ladies and Gentleman here is Russia invasion..  Wink 
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 32 Image-739783-galleryV9-lnxl

    Im sure the usual people that we know... will be saying How Russia is doing something wrong.  Rolling Eyes

     
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:49 am

    Vann7 wrote:Even Germany media , does not help a lot US ,NATO and kiev rhetoric...  
    Picture is worth of a thousand words.. This will be a major embarrassment to United Nations too.
    and a Big Public Relations Victory for Russia.  Wink 

    Ladies and Gentleman here is Russia invasion..  Wink 
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 32 Image-739783-galleryV9-lnxl

    Im sure the usual people that we know... will be saying How Russia is doing something wrong.  Rolling Eyes

     

    Just waiting for TR1 to come back and bitch again around of russian Trucks entering Ukraine and that is somehow a thing he can not stay quite and without raging, but when USA openly overthrows several dozen governments it is nothing of concern.
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    Post  Mike E Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:34 am

    Vann7, that "Ladies and Gentleman here is Russia invasion..  Wink" part was very funny and I don't even know why... 

    Werewolf, we all "know" that the US is "entitled" to such things.
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:15 pm

    Ukraine territorial integrity can be saved only by federalization - German Vice-Chancellor
    BERLIN, August 23 (Itar-Tass) - It is possible to save Ukraine's territorial integrity only by federalization, German Economy Minister and Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said in an interview to Sunday's Welt am Sonntag, published on Saturday.
    Ukraine’s territorial integrity can be saved only if the offer is made to the regions where most of the population are Russians. A well-considered conception of federalization is viewed as the only way, he said.
    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko repeatedly stated he opposed federalization. In his words, "it has no grounds in Ukraine".

    And we are what? heading back to square 1? What this whole thing was about.
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    Post  Regular Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:55 pm

    http://vk.com/video227620261_170034441?hash=cb2d7cdf453f3a07
    Those rebels are just protecting their homes and families...  Twisted Evil 
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    Post  Petro007 Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:41 pm

    Kacap terrorist infiltrators made a desant near russian border
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 32 6aef485c5e91
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    Post  medo Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:53 pm

    http://el-murid.livejournal.com/1973555.html

    Сегодня же стали известны утечки с заседания СНБО, на котором были оглашены цифры потерь нацистов за время проведения карательной операции на Востоке. Озвученные потери - 12 тысяч погибших и 19 тысяч раненых близки к тем, которые вычислялись косвенным образом (15 тысяч убитыми и 15 тысяч ранеными). Так что скорее всего, цифры СНБО вполне соответствуют истине.


    If true, than Ukrainian army have enormous losses. They have 12.000 soldiers killed and 19.000 soldiers wounded. Novorussian army captured more than 1000 Ukrainian soldiers and if we count here those 18.000 Ukrainian soldiers, who in Crimea join to Russian army, than Ukrainian army have total loss of around 50.000 soldiers. Before conflict Ukrainian army have around 63.000 soldiers and Ukrainian army is now actually a reserve army and there is a good question, how many competent officers they have left to lead those reserve units.
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    Post  Regular Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:24 pm

    Petro007 wrote:Kacap terrorist infiltrators made a desant near russian border
    http://s018.radikal.ru/i527/1408/11/6aef485c5e91.jpg
    Very good news if true. Thanks for sharing.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:42 pm

    Man, those Donbas gift shops really provide a nice asortiment these days  Wink 
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 32 252721_original
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:42 am

    I just love how the Euromaidan Ukrainians call the fighters in eastern Ukraine "Terrorist" for taking weapons to defend their families after the Illegal violent Coup to a democratically elected president early in Year ,with help from the west.. and that now once in Power are using the army to bomb cities indiscriminately ,killing civilians women and children. I think Ukrainians are really badly informed about who are the real terrorist. or at least the ones committing the crimes.  People have the right to life.. and the right to have representation even if minimal in the government in power. And RIght now Ethnic Russians who have been living there forever.. do not have that representation. And have no chance or future under a Government controlled by Americans and the European Union.  Eastern Ukrainians have the right to fight for their freedom..and the security and future of their families ,once they no longer see possible for them any future under a Fascist Government ,that not even their language is allowed to speak.

    And for you @Petro007  
    Go and see the next video and show it to your friends..
    Shows how the Ukrainian army kill indiscriminately civilians women and children in eastern ukraine
    bombing cities . As far as i understand the separatist are not bombing kiev killing civilians there ,neither bombing any cities anywhere. only fighting the Ukie army that is trying to enter their cities. What will you do if Poroshenko  use the army to bomb your city and kill your family? i don't think that you will remain loyal to that government if your family and friends are killed  just because they reject the coup against their country and the new leadership.




    here is another.. Look how Ukraine army "defend their nation" Murdering indiscriminately civilians with their
    artillery..  Who are the real terrorist here? The Kiev forces that indiscriminately bomb cities or the separatist fighting to defend their lives and their families ?  


    What did I say about posting videos and pictures with objectionable material Vann?

    I don't agree with everything you say but you seem to be an OK guy... but this is the very final warning... if you post pictures with dead people or videos with dead people post them as links and include a warning... or I will be forced to give you a short break from this forum... DO YOU UNDERSTAND.  (I know it is frustrating and the western media is sht and is not doing their job but that is no excuse...).


    This is no different to what NATO did in Yugoeslavia and Serbia war.. they directly bombed cities to terrorize people and use the crimes against civilians as a weapon to force the Resistance to surrender. NATO is not directly bombing
    in Eastern Ukraine because they fear Russia retaliation ,since they are one of the few powers in the world that can fight back at them and very well. And Ukrainians Euro zombies who have no care for civilian lives, will burn in hell , once the Separatist with the help of Russia go on a full offensive and take the fight to the streets in kiev ,and kick for once the bandera scum from this world.

    ...


    On a similar note specially for the Brainwashed Ukies Morons = Pro EuroMaidans.
    There is a report that is gold , a brilliant piece of information..
    Explain a little examples of the amount of propaganda in Kiev controlled media and the answer to the question of why there is little resistance to no resistance at all in other cities like kharkiv and Odessa ,that originally protested but not anymore....A very excellent article and must read.. here is an excerpt.


    The first thing to admit here is that not all Ukrainians are opposed to the new junta.  Well, by now probably most are, but not with the kind of determination which would make you join a protest movement or, even less so, an insurgency.  For one thing, most Ukrainians have been raised under various degrees of russophobia, from the more-or-less nationalistic and russophobic Soviet Ukraine, to the rabidly nationalistic and russophobic Ukraine after 1991, to the insanely nationalistic and russophobic Ukraine after 2013, the official ideology and political climate in Banderastan is hysterically anti-Russian.  So even those Ukies who might not be neo-Nazis of Bandera-groupies are not at all necessarily pro-Russian at all.

    Second, there is an information blackout in the state and even "independent" media.  We have all seen how even directors of major TV channels get beat up by Ukie nationalists if the don't broadcast "comme il faut" programs.  You can imagine what happens to smaller media outlets!  So the population is told that the Ukie army is fighting, I kid you not, a Russian invasion!  They are truly told that the Donbass if chock full of Russian Spetsnaz forces and tanks.  I have even seen a report about 30 Russian T-90 MBTs attacking a Ukie defended village.  So the level of propaganda and, frankly, zombification is simply unimaginable and while many Ukrainians might not like the junta in power, that does not mean that they would like a Russian invasion of the Ukraine.

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.se/2014/08/reply-to-friend-where-are-ukrainian.html
    onwiththewar
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    Post  onwiththewar Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:17 am

    sepheronx wrote:Ukraine territorial integrity can be saved only by federalization - German Vice-Chancellor
    BERLIN, August 23 (Itar-Tass) - It is possible to save Ukraine's territorial integrity only by federalization, German Economy Minister and Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said in an interview to Sunday's Welt am Sonntag, published on Saturday.
    Ukraine’s territorial integrity can be saved only if the offer is made to the regions where most of the population are Russians. A well-considered conception of federalization is viewed as the only way, he said.
    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko repeatedly stated he opposed federalization. In his words, "it has no grounds in Ukraine".

    And we are what? heading back to square 1?  What this whole thing was about.

    IMHO, Porky will not accept federalization as a solution. He'd rather be the president of half Ukraine under his control, than the president of a full Ukraine where he doesn't have control of the other half.

    If federalization becomes a reality, underground rebellion will spill into West Ukraine very easily. If in the next election, someone pro East Ukraine can becomes the next president (unlikely but possible), Porky can be arrested for his war crimes, and lose his wife, his son, you know, shit can happen. Controlling half of Ukraine of Ukies without Russians will not give him this risk.

    Don't think Nato will want federalization as a solution either. Federalization means back to square one for them too. Nato want (either half or full) of Ukraine to be very aggressive to Russia. If federalization becomes a reality, Ukraine people manage to keep their country as a whole, the conflict between west and east of Ukraine then becomes purely domestic. In other words, if Novorossiya officially goes back to be part of Ukraine, it's going to be very hard to get Russia involved. (Of course Russia was never involved anyway, but Nato will not be able to beat the war drums if Ukraine becomes united).

    Nato would rather play their game as in Korea or Vietnam. Where there is a clear border separating the 2 camps.

    Federalization, unfortunately, as it seems, is what Russia and Germany want, so the consequence of the conflict can be minimized and people continue with their lives as if nothing happened. But I don't think things will go that way.

    This war is profound and ongoing. The other side only settles on the total collapse of our side. The word "peace" is not in their dictionary. Any idea about a peaceful solution is nothing but a pipe dream.

    According to http://voicesevas.ru/ yesterday they officially announced that Strelkov is coming back to build the united army for Novorossiya. Which is very good news !


















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    Post  Werewolf Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:32 am

    onwiththewar wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Ukraine territorial integrity can be saved only by federalization - German Vice-Chancellor
    BERLIN, August 23 (Itar-Tass) - It is possible to save Ukraine's territorial integrity only by federalization, German Economy Minister and Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said in an interview to Sunday's Welt am Sonntag, published on Saturday.
    Ukraine’s territorial integrity can be saved only if the offer is made to the regions where most of the population are Russians. A well-considered conception of federalization is viewed as the only way, he said.
    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko repeatedly stated he opposed federalization. In his words, "it has no grounds in Ukraine".

    And we are what? heading back to square 1?  What this whole thing was about.

    IMHO, Porky will not accept federalization as a solution. He'd rather be the president of half Ukraine under his control, than the president of a full Ukraine where he doesn't have control of the other half.

    If federalization becomes a reality, underground rebellion will spill into West Ukraine very easily. If in the next election, someone pro East Ukraine can becomes the next president (unlikely but possible), Porky can be arrested for his war crimes, and lose his wife, his son, you know, shit can happen. Controlling half of Ukraine of Ukies without Russians will not give him this risk.

    Don't think Nato will want federalization as a solution either. Federalization means back to square one for them too. Nato want (either half or full) of Ukraine to be very aggressive to Russia. If federalization becomes a reality, Ukraine people manage to keep their country as a whole, the conflict between west and east of Ukraine then becomes purely domestic. In other words, if Novorossiya officially goes back to be part of Ukraine, it's going to be very hard to get Russia involved. (Of course Russia was never involved anyway, but Nato will not be able to beat the war drums if Ukraine becomes united).

    Nato would rather play their game as in Korea or Vietnam. Where there is a clear border separating the 2 camps.

    Federalization, unfortunately, as it seems, is what Russia and Germany want, so the consequence of the conflict can be minimized and people continue with their lives as if nothing happened. But I don't think things will go that way.

    This war is profound and ongoing. The other side only settles on the total collapse of our side. The word "peace" is not in their dictionary. Any idea about a peaceful solution is nothing but a pipe dream.

    According to http://voicesevas.ru/ yesterday they officially announced that Strelkov is coming back to build the united army for Novorossiya. Which is very good news !

    Porky will not accept federalization because US says so not because he has any weight in politics. He has the same amount of power in politics like 4 year old toddler has power and influence of what the parents are doing for living. He has zero power, Ukraine does not attrocities because they "decided" to do so but because they are allowed and majority indoctrinated or forced to do so, to achieve one thing to provoce russia into war, which would solve all economical problems for the US over the next decade+ and destroy Russia and russian reputation.

    As long there is a conflict Ukraine puppet state can make all excuses they want and make up reasons why the economy is shit, why they have no gas, why the pensions are so low and so on. As soon as the war would be over what excuses they would have, when the economy is still shit, the pensions still low, they still can't pay for the russian gas and people are freezing? The war means to quite a large extent PR for Ukraine and the indoctrinated population that is still pro ukraine or even the small amount of the pro-eu retards. As soon the war/conflict ends there are no more propaganda excuses why Ukraine can not go into EU and they will bring them milk and honey and people will finally wake up from the American Dream and see the American Nightmare, Bane and Rape they are bringing. Still can not understand how people can forget all the false flags and coup de etats of US that just are few years old. I mean are people drinking to much fluoridated tap water that the IQ is so low?
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:42 am

    New Southern Cauldron 3.0 formed.. this time Novorosia militia claims there are from 5,000 to 7,000 Ukie soldiers
    trapped in the south.. with a very impressive number of armor and artillery..

    https://twitter.com/tony_hartin #Ukie Southern cauldron 3.0 contains


    7000 troops,
    50 #tanks,
    200 #IFVs,
    100 artillery pieces and
    50 #Grad & #Uragan wrote: wrote:


    Is apparently near the coast . This is the time for Russia to intervene more.. It will be ugly such massive numbers of casualties and the Rebels truly need those armored vehicles. If i was Russia i will send special forces with special anti-tank weapons that only wound people inside their tanks or artillery but dont kill them or totally destroy their equipment . Something like tear gas launched in the thousands could also neutralize for an hour that force. Cause temporary blindness and then charge to take their equipment and arrest them.  Smile 

    In the case of Russia if it was their war.and had to fight with their full army will have much easier time ..the only drop Sleep Gas or any non lethal gas that cause blindness or even other chemicals that cause people to turn very sick..and faint.

    here is more info of the southern cauldron.. 3.0

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/746415

    Still not sure how can they "trap" so big force. and force them to surrender with much less people and hardware.. but we will see.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:17 pm

    Could someone tell me if this is true or not:
    "Ukraine introduces new military award- bandera cross:"
    http://voenkor.info/hunta-vvodit-banderovskij-krest-na-ukraine/

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