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Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

Begome

Begome: Posts : 158
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Post n°826

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

Begome Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:29 am

sepheronx wrote:Maybe Russia should host an open vote, and ask the people if: do they want Russia to stay and protect the land or leave?

Do in both Armenia and in Karabakh. If they vote to leave, Russia should leave. And just reinforce their borders to the south and upgrade around allied states. Let Armenia and Armenians face the consequences and they can't blame Russia because they voted them to leave.

Except the people in Nagorno-Karabakh will likely vote "stay", while the majority in Armenia will likely vote "go", which would put Russia in an even worse position, having to support a garrison that would have even less assets, space to maneuver and possibility of support than is already the case now.
So I vote for there being no vote Smile

mnztr

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Post n°827

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

mnztr Fri Sep 01, 2023 3:28 am

sepheronx wrote:Maybe Russia should host an open vote, and ask the people if: do they want Russia to stay and protect the land or leave?

Do in both Armenia and in Karabakh. If they vote to leave, Russia should leave. And just reinforce their borders to the south and upgrade around allied states. Let Armenia and Armenians face the consequences and they can't blame Russia because they voted them to leave.

Its up to Russia to save them or NATO will.

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GarryB

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Post n°828

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

GarryB Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:29 am

Except the US will save them the way they have saved Georgia and Ukraine... notice a pattern?

The disputed territory in both cases remains under Russian control with the US allies butthurt and pissy but no better off than when they didn't have US support.

In fact they are now worse off because before the US got involved at least they had trade with Russia which allowed them a life not slaving for monsanto or the other western companies that now own their land.

Russia needs to make things plain to Armenia that they are there because they think that Armenia and the people of Armenia and NK want them there, but if the people think otherwise... whether they are justified or just bullshitted by Soros or the Clinton foundation or the Jamestown institute of the criminally insane, then that is OK too.

Russia is not a country that will invade countries on a whim to steal territory or resources, but they will come in to places that kill their own people so the west can steal resources.

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mnztr

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Post n°829

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

mnztr Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:05 am

GarryB wrote:Except the US will save them the way they have saved Georgia and Ukraine... notice a pattern?

The disputed territory in both cases remains under Russian control with the US allies butthurt and pissy but no better off than when they didn't have US support.

In fact they are now worse off because before the US got involved at least they had trade with Russia which allowed them a life not slaving for monsanto or the other western companies that now own their land.

Russia needs to make things plain to Armenia that they are there because they think that Armenia and the people of Armenia and NK want them there, but if the people think otherwise... whether they are justified or just bullshitted by Soros or the Clinton foundation or the Jamestown institute of the criminally insane, then that is OK too.

Russia is not a country that will invade countries on a whim to steal territory or resources, but they will come in to places that kill their own people so the west can steal resources.

Nah, I think the US can lean on the Azeris quite well. Ukraine and Georgia were dumb enough to **** with Russia.

GarryB

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Post n°830

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

GarryB Sat Sep 02, 2023 6:52 am

Well give them credit... tie eater believed Americas bullshit... that comes from getting a US education... the current Georgian leaders are improving relations with Russia and not rocking the boat by joining the west in their suicide attack on Russia and all things Russian.

par far

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Post n°831

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

par far Wed Sep 06, 2023 5:24 pm

Azerbaijan is apparently moving lots of military to the border with Armenia.

Backman

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Post n°832

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

Backman Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:07 pm

sepheronx wrote:Maybe Russia should host an open vote, and ask the people if: do they want Russia to stay and protect the land or leave?

Do in both Armenia and in Karabakh. If they vote to leave, Russia should leave. And just reinforce their borders to the south and upgrade around allied states. Let Armenia and Armenians face the consequences and they can't blame Russia because they voted them to leave.

According to the Armenian accounts on Twitter, they are going to fight to the death for Artsahk. But their president is a cia agent working for Turkey and the US. Thats a problem. He should have ordered a half dozen Pantsir's but nope. They want to settle Artsahk once and for all. ie take it away from Armenia

sepheronx

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Post n°833

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

sepheronx Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:00 pm

par far wrote:Azerbaijan is apparently moving lots of military to the border with Armenia.

Well, screw Armenia. Their president screwed relations with Russia so now their people can bask in the glory of a western stooge. Of course they will blame Russia anyway.

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Backman

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Post n°834

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

Backman Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:03 pm

There are rumors that the local power brokers and military leaders in Artsahk are going to go over the head of Pashinyan. But how ? Russia might be able to slip them some air defense . I dunno. Maybe just hand helds

Why didn't the hot headed nationalists in Yerevan assassinate Pashinyan for intentionally losing the war the first time ? Trashing the parliament doesn't count. It is too late for the nationalists I think. All they will do is fight hard but lose like they did the first time

GarryB

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Post n°835

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

GarryB Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:47 am

If Armenia wants to be safe all they have to do is say to Russia that they wont play that stupid game of playing one side off against the other to get special deals, because you only end up pissing off both sides and you will be left to the dogs.

Azerbaijan makes a lot of money from gas exports so simply say to them if they keep being hostile that such infrastructure might get damaged in the process.

Cooler heads will likely prevail after that.

nomadski

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Post n°836

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

nomadski Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:30 pm

Two American / NATO allies going to war ? NATO membership brings world peace ? Stops members fighting ? Like a Pub landlord that can stop a brawl between two drunks ? Alas nobody can stop war . Did NATO stop war between Turkey and Greece ? Who is more important ? R. Azer and the pan-Turkish project to destabilise central Asia and Russia and Iran and China or ........Armenian territorial integrity ? Let me guess ! Once the stupid Armenian leaders are hooked , line and sinker , their M16 Rifles replacing AK47 , with no Ammo on the way , and Turks are de-virginising beautiful Armenian girls , then the penny will drop ! Or will it ? Joint manoeuvre with yanks ?

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sepheronx

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Post n°837

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

sepheronx Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:56 pm

Yeah, Armenia refuses CSTO military exercises but does one with US.

Russia needs to remove Armenia from CSTO and let the Yanks attempt to move in. Turkey will prevent that and Armenia will be alone and they will cry a river but end up nearly losing their own state. Lavrov mentioned how Armenia is acting after G20 summit. With friends like them, you don't need enemies.

But what I do find interesting is how so many Russian allies are willing to back stab Russia. Kazakhstan who needed russias assistance 1-2 years ago and Armenia due to Karabakh. Now all willingly do what Americans want.

This war in Ukraine isn't helping with Russia going slow at it and allowing USA to help kill Russians. Sitting and just letting Ukraine keep building up while Russia sits as defense isn't gonna work forever, they need to have a plan to attack and gain more. Prove to the other "allies" that their little games won't save them if push comes to shove with Russia.

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Walther von Oldenburg

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Post n°838

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

Walther von Oldenburg Sun Sep 10, 2023 7:05 pm

sepheronx wrote:Yeah, Armenia refuses CSTO military exercises but does one with US.

Russia needs to remove Armenia from CSTO and let the Yanks attempt to move in. Turkey will prevent that and Armenia will be alone and they will cry a river but end up nearly losing their own state. Lavrov mentioned how Armenia is acting after G20 summit. With friends like them, you don't need enemies.

But what I do find interesting is how so many Russian allies are willing to back stab Russia. Kazakhstan who needed russias assistance 1-2 years ago and Armenia due to Karabakh. Now all willingly do what Americans want.

This war in Ukraine isn't helping with Russia going slow at it and allowing USA to help kill Russians. Sitting and just letting Ukraine keep building up while Russia sits as defense isn't gonna work forever, they need to have a plan to attack and gain more. Prove to the other "allies" that their little games won't save them if push comes to shove with Russia.

The Ru forces are still at a rough numerical parity with the Ukro forces. For example during Bagration the Soviet forces had 3 to 1 numerical advantage. In Ukraine there simply isn't enough troops to attack and won't be without additional 1-2 waves of mobilization.

An example of a successful Soviet offensive. Look up the numbers:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

sepheronx

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Post n°839

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

sepheronx Sun Sep 10, 2023 7:13 pm

Russia has about 300K troops sitting idle at the border.

lyle6

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Post n°840

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

lyle6 Sun Sep 10, 2023 8:58 pm

Force ratios that count only troops are retarded. We don't fight with hand-to-hand weapons such that more warm bodiesequals bigger chances of winning. We use guns, so what people should be counting is the amount of firepower available.

And something tells me Russia is enjoying firepower advantages that would make the Soviet planners of Bagration green with envy.

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flamming_python

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Post n°841

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

flamming_python Sun Sep 10, 2023 8:59 pm

Very simple way to solve this whole thing

If NATO tries to establish a base in Armenia, or Nagorno-Karabakh or wherever, immediately withdraw the Russian presence from all these areas. And don't worry about what happens next there. Russia doesn't need to be everywhere, and certainly not in a place where it's going to be blamed by both sides. There is nothing in it for Russia.

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JohninMK

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Post n°842

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

JohninMK Sun Sep 10, 2023 10:54 pm

Iran Observer
@IranObserver0
.
5h
Debunking Some Fake News:

● Turkey did not warn Iran

● Iranian troops are not heading to the borders with Armenia and Azerbaijan

● IRGC has not created Armenian paramilitary forces

● COS (Chief of Staff) Sardar Bagheri has not visited Baku

● Iran has not reached an agreement with Azerbaijan's Aliyev regime

Factual News:

● Iran has sent a military delegation to Azerbaijan

● Iran will not accept territorial changes on its borders

Iran Observer
@IranObserver0
·
Sep 9
Iran's position regarding Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict:

● Nagorno-Karabakh belongs to Azerbaijan

● Iran will not agree to cutting off its borders with Armenia because that would deny it access to Russia and Eastern Europe, and will use force if anyone tries to do so.

Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict] - Page 34 F5lFt6DX0AA2HYg?format=jpg&name=small

Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict] - Page 34 F5lFt6DX0AA2HYg?format=jpg&name=small

● Iran warned Armenia against inviting third parties to the region (USA)

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JohninMK

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Post n°843

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

JohninMK Sun Sep 10, 2023 11:33 pm

Sprinter
@Sprinter99800
.
8h
Azerbaijan and Armenia agreed to reopen the Lachin corridor.

The Azerbaijani government and Armenian forces in Nagorno-Karabakh have agreed to open two disputed transport routes, including a key route known as the Lachin corridor.

According to Armenian media reports, citing data from the Karabakh authorities, the parties decided to issue permission for Russian goods to enter this region through the city of Askeran, located near Azerbaijan.

mnztr

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Post n°844

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

mnztr Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:41 am

Sometimes races get genocided because they cannot live with others..

GarryB

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Post n°845

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

GarryB Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:57 am

The Ru forces are still at a rough numerical parity with the Ukro forces. For example during Bagration the Soviet forces had 3 to 1 numerical advantage. In Ukraine there simply isn't enough troops to attack and won't be without additional 1-2 waves of mobilization.

The initial attack by Russia secured lots of territory around Kiev and in other places too... very simply it is not about numbers, it is about mobility.

Kiev lacks armour and air power and mobility to fight a mobile conflict... even a static conflict is a struggle with moving forces around the place to defend the line or put pressure on some areas.

Russia does not lack mobility or armour or airpower.

Multiple attacks on multiple points along the front and Kievs forces would probably collapse in a lot of places... eventually that is what they might end up doing... but I also suspect they are secretly talking to people in charge of Ukrainian cities behind the front line negotiating potential responses if Russian troops arrive at their gates.

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flamming_python

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Post n°846

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

flamming_python Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:02 am

Moreover it's about force concentration

The Germans on the Eastern Front were outmanned by the Red Army, but if you look at their offensives and attacks throughout 1941, 1942, 1943, you'll see that they outnumbered the enemy by 3x, 4x, 5x times. Because they managed to concentrate their forces where it mattered and when it mattered.

The Ukrainians can do that and are doing that; right now on the Orekhov-Rabotino section - only it's not doing them much good.

And Russia can do it easily too when it decides to do so, and rapidly break through Ukrainian lines along 1 or more axis

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higurashihougi

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Post n°847

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

higurashihougi Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:24 pm

https://www.rt.com/russia/582736-deal-humanitarian-aid-nagorno-karabakh/

Deal reached to allow humanitarian aid to Nagorno-Karabakh

The agreement between Azerbaijan and its breakaway region comes amid heightened tensions and a looming humanitarian crisis

Authorities in Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan have agreed to allow humanitarian aid to flow to Baku’s predominantly Armenian-populated breakaway region along two routes, local officials and media have said.

Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh have long insisted that Azerbaijan lift a blockade on the key Lachin corridor Baku took control of three years ago, the only direct route between the two sides. Meanwhile, the deal also means that Baku can restore a direct line to its breakaway region for the first time since the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan in the early 1990s.

On Saturday, Karabakh authorities quoted by Armenpress news agency said they had decided to “allow the entry of Russian humanitarian shipments to our republic through the city of Askeran,” referring to a settlement not far from where Baku controls. They said the move sought “to mitigate the acute humanitarian problems caused by the complete blockade implemented by Azerbaijan.”

In addition, Baku and Karabakh authorities agreed to restore “humanitarian cargo transportation by Russian peacekeepers and the International Committee of the Red Cross… through the Lachin corridor,” the report added, referring to the only road link between the contested region and Armenia.

Hikmet Hajiyev, a foreign policy advisor to Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev, told Reuters that the two roads would be opened simultaneously but said that an Azerbaijani checkpoint in the Lachin corridor would remain in place.

This settlement follows phone discussions between Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan and the leaders of France, Germany, Iran, and Georgia, as well as US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, on Saturday. On the same day, the parliament of Nagorno-Karabakh elected a new president, Samvel Shahramanyan. Neither Baku nor the EU recognized the legitimacy of the election.

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kvs

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Post n°848

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

kvs Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:55 pm

"Armenian occupied Nagorno-Karabakh" what a loaded propaganda phrase. I guess we had Tutsi occupied portions of Rwanda and Hutu occupied portions of Burundi.
Anyone who labels maps this way is either a retard or malicious. The problem with colonial borders (which most of them are) is that they deny the indigenous ethnic
distribution and create genocidal wars in their wake.

The bloodshed in Ukraine is an example of BS borders and their effect.

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Dr.Snufflebug

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Post n°849

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

Dr.Snufflebug Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:17 pm

kvs wrote:"Armenian occupied Nagorno-Karabakh" what a loaded propaganda phrase. I guess we had Tutsi occupied portions of Rwanda and Hutu occupied portions of Burundi.
Anyone who labels maps this way is either a retard or malicious. The problem with colonial borders (which most of them are) is that they deny the indigenous ethnic
distribution and create genocidal wars in their wake.

The bloodshed in Ukraine is an example of BS borders and their effect.

Indeed. Soviet border drawing came in a couple of flavors, often a combination:

Overall SSR (and SFSR re Russia) mostly based on geography and history
Ethnical regions receiving distinct borders to keep them a wee bit more content, given limited autonomy etc (this includes subregions, like ASSRs within SSRs).
Practical borders changes (eg made sense from a purely practical POV to hook Crimean ASSR up with UkSSR, due to train lines, power lines and other infrastructure, helped the administrative apparatus, some of the seemingly nonsensical broken jigsaw borders in Central Asia are results of that too.
Suppression of too much ethnic nationalism, Karabakh is a bit like this, this Armenian region being made part of the AzSSR helped "dilute" Azeri majority of the republic.

Abkhazia and South Ossetia were a bit of all too.

The huge problem arose when the "main" SSR borders were made sovereign and all these other considerations immediately ignored. I'd wager it's the main cause of all post-Soviet conflicts, including in UA now. The CIS project to my knowledge was supposed to mitigate this and over time bridge things, but the west stepped in immediately and started stirring stuff up (by for some reason insisting that SSR borders are infallible, the irony is palpable, mind you that was the "evil empire" a decade earlier). Only reason for that was that they knew the trouble it would cause and what a headache it would be for Russia.

Bit disjointed post, will clean it up later.

Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug on Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post n°850

Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

flamming_python Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:38 pm

The Soviet Union was full of this sort of thing, transferring one people's lands into the hands of another people. Armenian land to Azerbaijan, Abkhazia made part of Georgia, Kazakh autonomy made into an Uzbek autonomy, Tuvan and Buryat lands made part of Russian oblasts, Ingush lands transfered to North Ossetia, Chechen lands to Dagestan, Kalmyk territory transferred to Astrakhan oblast. Slavic settled territory to Moldova. And of course Russian territory to the Ukraine.

Different reasons for it. Sometimes it wasn't possible to please everyone and so the decision had to piss off someone. Sometimes to bind the loyalty of a local 'communist' elite (with a mysteriously nationalist bent) closer to Moscow. Sometimes to weaken national elites or as punishment or to even make some sort of new 'hybrid' identity or whatever.
Either way it was mostly about control. And it has proven to be a terrible idea in the half of these places that have since the collapse of the USSR erupted into war.

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