The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

onwiththewar wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Have not seen this explained or put so clearly before.

The Minsk-2 agreement opens the door for the reversing of the coup
in Ukraine.. and not only the pro Russian Factions in Donetsk and Lugansk
to have the right to speak their language..but in all ukraine too... it also opens
the door for them to have representation in kiev.. that is Pro Russian political parties
representation.. in short MInsk-2 is a document that pressure Ukraine into becoming
again a democracy with freedom of expression and freedom of association in politics.
So any Pro RUssian Candidate allowed to participate in next elections for President of
Ukraine ,have a big chance of winning , and reversing all the Banderafication of Ukraine.
to a nation friendly that is majority is friendly or neutral to Russia.

This of course the implementation of Minsk-2 is highly dependent on the pressure of Europe
on Americans and Kiev to continue and end the war there. But is not all 100% clear still..
because france Holland is opposing Russia in Syria..and Russia helping Assad could end
the support of France in opposing obama policies in ukraine and complicate everything.

Apparently Merkel SUPPORTS Russia in Syria.

Germany's Merkel sees need to cooperate with Russia on Syria

Germany and other western European powers need to work with Russia as well as the United States to solve the crisis in Syria, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday.

Link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/12/us-mideast-crisis-syria-germany-idUSKCN0RC0LM20150912

Some comments about kidnapped Russian soldiers. I didn't find any info about this time, but last time what happened was (unconfirmed rumors of course): there were some strange random shootings on the road in Rostov region. Then the military sent these soldiers to help with investigation. Then they end up kidnapped (ambushed by a group of 30 people).  

The reason Russia did not make a fuss was many people involved in the kidnapping were from within Russia (5th columnists).

Did they arrest the people involved?  This shit is completely unacceptable and people need to be punished.  20 years in jail and labour.  Did the Soldiers get released?

Any links of such events?

sepheronx wrote:

onwiththewar wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Have not seen this explained or put so clearly before.

The Minsk-2 agreement opens the door for the reversing of the coup
in Ukraine.. and not only the pro Russian Factions in Donetsk and Lugansk
to have the right to speak their language..but in all ukraine too... it also opens
the door for them to have representation in kiev.. that is Pro Russian political parties
representation.. in short MInsk-2 is a document that pressure Ukraine into becoming
again a democracy with freedom of expression and freedom of association in politics.
So any Pro RUssian Candidate allowed to participate in next elections for President of
Ukraine ,have a big chance of winning , and reversing all the Banderafication of Ukraine.
to a nation friendly that is majority is friendly or neutral to Russia.

This of course the implementation of Minsk-2 is highly dependent on the pressure of Europe
on Americans and Kiev to continue and end the war there. But is not all 100% clear still..
because france Holland is opposing Russia in Syria..and Russia helping Assad could end
the support of France in opposing obama policies in ukraine and complicate everything.

Apparently Merkel SUPPORTS Russia in Syria.

Germany's Merkel sees need to cooperate with Russia on Syria

Germany and other western European powers need to work with Russia as well as the United States to solve the crisis in Syria, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday.

Link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/12/us-mideast-crisis-syria-germany-idUSKCN0RC0LM20150912

Some comments about kidnapped Russian soldiers. I didn't find any info about this time, but last time what happened was (unconfirmed rumors of course): there were some strange random shootings on the road in Rostov region. Then the military sent these soldiers to help with investigation. Then they end up kidnapped (ambushed by a group of 30 people).  

The reason Russia did not make a fuss was many people involved in the kidnapping were from within Russia (5th columnists).

Did they arrest the people involved?  This shit is completely unacceptable and people need to be punished.  20 years in jail and labour.  Did the Soldiers get released?

Any links of such events?

Fifth columnist theory is bit of a stretch but if it is true (unlikely) then those locals will be having a chat with NAF boys on vacation. Ouch...

But with Russia officially claiming that Ukrainians kidnapped them Kiev is stuck. Sponsors will not back them on this particular fuckup (otherwise they would have by now) and I am sure they would not want to have their gas supply suffering ''hickups'' in the dead of winter.

Just another Ukrainian self inflicted sodomy nothing new to see here. Those two guys will be comming home sooner than later.

Russia Won't Let Ukrainians Freeze This Winter, Despite Hostility From Kiev

http://sputniknews.com/business/20150914/1026964308/russia-ukraine-gas-europe.html#ixzz3liFSc3Dv

This could go in a number of threads, but ultimately it is about Donbass, so here. I am not making a political point by posting this, simply very briefly paraphrasing what Ishchenko has written, which I know will make some burst a blood vessel in rage, and if so, hurl stones at Ishchenko, not me.

Rostislav Ishchenko has written a long article about Russia and Russians. He argues that Russia is held together by the fact that the majority population is ethnic Russian, and in areas were the population of ethnic Russians has fallen, essentially in the Muslim areas, then those areas begin to revert to old tribal conditions and loose an identity as Russian. He points out that while the decrease in the population has stopped and been reversed, the increase has occured in Muslim areas as well as being the result of immigration from primarily Muslim countries that had been part of Soviet Union. I point out that Ishchenko is careful not to use the word "Muslim", but simply by naming a republic or country it is obvious to the blind what he really means. And he further states that the decrease of ethnic Russians in the historic heartlands in fact continues. This is relevant to Donbass as he sees that if Donbass, or a larger Novorossiya, becomes part of Russia, then it will increase the proportion of ethnic Russians in Russia, and help to keep Russia Russian, and not something else. There is much more nuance to his article than I can put here without translating word for word the entire piece. I notice fortruss often translate him, but I wonder if this will be too hot for them as it is "off message".
http://news-front.info/2015/09/14/integraciya-donbassa-i-rerusifikaciya-rossii-rostislav-ishhenko/

In other news which I notice has not been replicated here, there were disturbances in Odessa and Kharkov over the weekend caused by pravy sektor and other radikals. I had posted about what happened in Odessa yesterday, and then deleted the post as perhaps such news simply gives oxygen to fascists, but it should be known that the clowns were in fact performing. Also it seems that Yarosh wants pravy sektor, "Svoboda" and the other radikals to join as one force. Not an unexpected move.

Umm. I would challange that. I believe it was under Russian population thread, but the highest birth rates in Russia are the Russia proper areas, and not the muslim community. Chechnya and Tatarstans birth rates are not high, not compared to the northern areas.

I would say that this person is being somewhat hysterical. Tatarstan may only be half Muslim population, but one of the most developed places in Russia.

Is it viable if Russia implements a Russianization program to make these Republics more Russian? even gradually? lets say, in a span of 10, 20 or even 30 years?

By using an argument that for various reasons is uncomfortable to some, Ishchenko is saying that Russia needs Donbass as Donbass is in all regards except errors made by 20th century politicians, Russian, just as Crimea. The argument he makes could be extended beyond Donbass, but that will be for further in the future. He threw a stone into the pond to see what ripples will occur, and after the elections it is likely there will be more stones, more ripples. Some people will go red in the face and huff and puff, but eventually Donbass will be part of Russia, then more stones and ripples and red faced shouting until it is all finished.

Project Canada wrote:Is it viable if Russia implements a Russianization program to make these Republics more Russian? even gradually? lets say, in a span of 10, 20 or even 30 years?

What? Well, judging from old photos and personal accounts, Russia has tried that for over a hundred years.

Russia is the accumulation of these people that reside in the country of Russia. You are Russian regardless what your belief structure is. Chechens are Russians under law.

That said, no, it probably cannot be done as human conditioning probably has a lot less evident success. Many colonies were under British rule for hundred years and they remained their own identity. It may have somewhat worked in Ukraine but that is mainly thanks to the ethnic groups who actually reside there, like the Polish/Ukrainians in the west.

And the dread of Muslims taking over is a joke and a poor scare mongering. Mich like the fabled Chinese taking over Siberia. Russian ethnics FAR outweigh the muslim minorities, and even more so than Chinese (there are more Chinese in Vancouver Canada than in Siberia). Chechnya, Daegestan, Ingushetia, Tatarstan etc all have fairly small populations. And for Tatarstan at least, half of its population are ethnic Russians.

Khepesh wrote:This could go in a number of threads, but ultimately it is about Donbass, so here. I am not making a political point by posting this, simply very briefly paraphrasing what Ishchenko has written, which I know will make some burst a blood vessel in rage, and if so, hurl stones at Ishchenko, not me.

Rostislav Ishchenko has written a long article about Russia and Russians. He argues that Russia is held together by the fact that the majority population is ethnic Russian, and in areas were the population of ethnic Russians has fallen, essentially in the Muslim areas, then those areas begin to revert to old tribal conditions and loose an identity as Russian. He points out that while the decrease in the population has stopped and been reversed, the increase has occured in Muslim areas as well as being the result of immigration from primarily Muslim countries that had been part of Soviet Union. I point out that Ishchenko is careful not to use the word "Muslim", but simply by naming a republic or country it is obvious to the blind what he really means. And he further states that the decrease of ethnic Russians in the historic heartlands in fact continues. This is relevant to Donbass as he sees that if Donbass, or a larger Novorossiya, becomes part of Russia, then it will increase the proportion of ethnic Russians in Russia, and help to keep Russia Russian, and not something else. There is much more nuance to his article than I can put here without translating word for word the entire piece. I notice fortruss often translate him, but I wonder if this will be too hot for them as it is "off message".
http://news-front.info/2015/09/14/integraciya-donbassa-i-rerusifikaciya-rossii-rostislav-ishhenko/

In other news which I notice has not been replicated here, there were disturbances in Odessa and Kharkov over the weekend caused by pravy sektor and other radikals. I had posted about what happened in Odessa yesterday, and then deleted the post as perhaps such news simply gives oxygen to fascists, but it should be known that the clowns were in fact performing. Also it seems that Yarosh wants pravy sektor, "Svoboda" and the other radikals to join as one force. Not an unexpected move.

This is a simple case of using muslim-scare to make argument about abandoning current (very efficient) strategy in favor of integrating Donbass into Russia. Shoddily done I have to say.

Like sephrenox said, demographics work in favour of ethnic Russians (whatever qualifies as such) and current makeup of Russian population is an advantage, not weakness.

But if you are really upset about Muslims taking over you can take comfort in the fact that Russia will be among last places to go full Islam. USA, Europe and Australia already gave up, Africa and Asia will be easy pickings.
That leaves Russia and South America as last holdouts of Christianity and Japan as non-islamic. No point crying over spilled milk.

If Russia wants to keep and promote it's identity then it needs to give it's population something to be proud of and it is exactly what it does now. And more is being done now in that department than at any point in Russia's history.
Economy, culture, art, science, megaprojects, education, healtcare, infrastructure, industry, living standards, it all keeps going forward.  
Just keep it up...

Edit:
Trading loyal hard working Central Asian immigrants for bunch of ungrateful parasitic backstabbing russophobic ukrainian Nazi scum is very poor choice as practise has proven it.

Skin color and eye shape are waaay overrated.

PapaDragon wrote:

This is a simple case of using muslim-scare to make argument about abandoning current (very efficient) strategy in favor of integrating Donbass into Russia. Shoddily done I have to say.

Like sephrenox said, demographics work in favour of ethnic Russians (whatever qualifies as such) and current makeup of Russian population is an advantage, not weakness.

But if you are really upset about Muslims taking over you can take comfort in the fact that Russia will be among last places to go full Islam. USA, Europe and Australia already gave up, Africa and Asia will be easy pickings.
That leaves Russia and South America as last holdouts of Christianity and Japan as non-islamic. No point crying over spilled milk.

If Russia wants to keep and promote it's identity then it needs to give it's population something to be proud of and it is exactly what it does now. And more is being done now in that department than at any point in Russia's history.
Economy, culture, art, science, megaprojects, education, healtcare, infrastructure, industry, living standards, it all keeps going forward.  
Just keep it up...

Edit:
Trading loyal hard working Central Asian immigrants for bunch of ungrateful parasitic backstabbing russophobic ukrainian Nazi scum is very poor choice as practise has proven it.

Skin color and eye shape are waaay overrated.

I hoped it was clear I was only using Ishchenko's article to further my view that Donbass is Russian. Ishchenko is only doing that. Yes, it can be seen as clumsy, but his article really has nothing to do with Muslims, and I pointed out that he never uses the word and I only did so for clarity. I don't care what variety of flying spaghetti monster people believe in, as long as they do not make any attempt to impose it on me.

I don't know what the birth rate is in this large village but from the looks of things there's a whole lot of amorous encounters been happening for the last year and more, I'm talking babies and preggers ladies everywhere. I do know that every Saturday the number of births by gender for the week are announced on the local news and two years ago a very busy week was 15 or so. Now it's 25 on an average week and over thirty on some and that's just hospital births.

Another subject. Our climate down here is unique for the peninsula, and the climate for this village can vary dramatically from one end to the other, for instance Battery way out on the southwest end of town is generally 2 to 3 degrees colder than our little north side valley. In general our valley idea of a hard winter is couple 10 cm snows a season and it's gone in a day or two. Weather stays soft until late October and then slowly chills. Oddly, this year is different. Three weeks ago I mentioned to VCO as we headed up Post Road above Inkerman on the south side that some of the trees were already changing color, the deep green changing to a lighter green/yellow for about 50% of the flora.

Now it's distinctly chilly at night and some trees have totally turned yellow/brown and are dropping leaves like mad. This is a bit early, as in almost a month early. I actually tested out the heating system today, it was that chilly last night. Last week our usual high temp was 33-34, today it struggled to break 25 and it was 14 at 05. Makes working outside getting the lawn and gardens rather pleasant, but it also says we're going to have a pretty severe winter. This means up north it's going to be WAY worse than normal. Methinks 404, damn their eyes, will have a very unhappy coming six months.

Project Canada wrote:

Russia Won't Let Ukrainians Freeze This Winter, Despite Hostility From Kiev

http://sputniknews.com/business/20150914/1026964308/russia-ukraine-gas-europe.html#ixzz3liFSc3Dv

Moskva doesn't do it for free. They get money... from the West, as Kyiv is essentially having no ability to pay.

PapaDragon wrote:

Khepesh wrote:This could go in a number of threads, but ultimately it is about Donbass, so here. I am not making a political point by posting this, simply very briefly paraphrasing what Ishchenko has written, which I know will make some burst a blood vessel in rage, and if so, hurl stones at Ishchenko, not me.

Rostislav Ishchenko has written a long article about Russia and Russians. He argues that Russia is held together by the fact that the majority population is ethnic Russian, and in areas were the population of ethnic Russians has fallen, essentially in the Muslim areas, then those areas begin to revert to old tribal conditions and loose an identity as Russian. He points out that while the decrease in the population has stopped and been reversed, the increase has occured in Muslim areas as well as being the result of immigration from primarily Muslim countries that had been part of Soviet Union. I point out that Ishchenko is careful not to use the word "Muslim", but simply by naming a republic or country it is obvious to the blind what he really means. And he further states that the decrease of ethnic Russians in the historic heartlands in fact continues. This is relevant to Donbass as he sees that if Donbass, or a larger Novorossiya, becomes part of Russia, then it will increase the proportion of ethnic Russians in Russia, and help to keep Russia Russian, and not something else. There is much more nuance to his article than I can put here without translating word for word the entire piece. I notice fortruss often translate him, but I wonder if this will be too hot for them as it is "off message".
http://news-front.info/2015/09/14/integraciya-donbassa-i-rerusifikaciya-rossii-rostislav-ishhenko/

In other news which I notice has not been replicated here, there were disturbances in Odessa and Kharkov over the weekend caused by pravy sektor and other radikals. I had posted about what happened in Odessa yesterday, and then deleted the post as perhaps such news simply gives oxygen to fascists, but it should be known that the clowns were in fact performing. Also it seems that Yarosh wants pravy sektor, "Svoboda" and the other radikals to join as one force. Not an unexpected move.

This is a simple case of using muslim-scare to make argument about abandoning current (very efficient) strategy in favor of integrating Donbass into Russia. Shoddily done I have to say.

Like sephrenox said, demographics work in favour of ethnic Russians (whatever qualifies as such) and current makeup of Russian population is an advantage, not weakness.

But if you are really upset about Muslims taking over you can take comfort in the fact that Russia will be among last places to go full Islam. USA, Europe and Australia already gave up, Africa and Asia will be easy pickings.
That leaves Russia and South America as last holdouts of Christianity and Japan as non-islamic. No point crying over spilled milk.

If Russia wants to keep and promote it's identity then it needs to give it's population something to be proud of and it is exactly what it does now. And more is being done now in that department than at any point in Russia's history.
Economy, culture, art, science, megaprojects, education, healtcare, infrastructure, industry, living standards, it all keeps going forward.  
Just keep it up...

Edit:
Trading loyal hard working Central Asian immigrants for bunch of ungrateful parasitic backstabbing russophobic ukrainian Nazi scum is very poor choice as practise has proven it.

Skin color and eye shape are waaay overrated.

Well Ukrainians are bit lazy and love to slack off. But under Russian supervision they can work to meet deadlines and are literate and sometimes think. But central asian Dzhumshuts are story on their own. No wonder some of them get their heads caved in. Spend some time in Moscow and You will see how useless they are. They cant operate machinery, they are physically weak, they can't speak Russian.
Look at this story, there is a reason Chelebinsk sent most of them away. Goldern words @ 1:00.

color , eyes don't matter. But genetics does.
You have to be blind or PC brainwashed not to believe it. We are all animals. It would be stupid to think evolution has nothing to with ethnic groups.
And hell knows what country had better environment to breed people like Russians. Where survival of the fittest counts even in everyday life.
Ironically real Russians are closest to what nazis would call aryans, that's why they had hatred towards slavs. It must hurt for Ukrainians who want to distance themselves from slavs as much as they can..  Mongrels

Regular wrote:
Well Ukrainians are bit lazy and love to slack off. Buy they can work to meet deadlines and are literate and sometimes think. But central asian Dzhumshuts are story on their own. No wonder some of them get their heads caved in. Spend some time in Moscow and You will see how useless they are. They cant operate machinery, they are physically weak, they can't speak Russian.

color , eyes don't matter. But genetics does.
You have to be blind or PC brainwashed not to believe it. We are all animals. It would be stupid to think evolution has nothing to with ethnic groups.
And hell knows what country had better environment to breed people like Russians. Where survival of the fittest counts even in everyday life.
Ironically real Russians are closest to what nazis would call aryans, that's why they had hatred towards slavs. It must hurt for Ukrainians who want to distance themselves from slavs as much as they can..  Mongrels

It's ironic how some people on both sides of this conflict seem to be "cut from the same cloth"....
I wonder if they realize it themselves, in between bouts of "Aryan genetic purity" tests.

PS: Looking up heterosis and inbreeding depression could be enlightening.

sepheronx wrote:Umm. I would challange that.  I believe it was under Russian population thread, but the highest birth rates in Russia are the Russia proper areas, and not the muslim community.  Chechnya and Tatarstans birth rates are not high, not compared to the northern areas.

I would say that this person is being somewhat hysterical.  Tatarstan may only be half Muslim population, but one of the most developed places in Russia.

Birthrates in Chechnya and the Caucasus in general are higher; just not by much.

You may be confusing it with the increase in birth rates in recent years; indeed the birthrate did increase in ethnic Russian areas more than the Muslim ones. Albeit it's also true that ethnic Russian regions; at least the major cities - have received much immigration from Central Asia and so on.

I find this whole discussion a little tasteless though; we shouldn't be afraid of our own indigenous Muslims - if we can't even accept parts of our own country than just what kind of country are we going to turn out to be?

Interesting report.. i found , apparently of US CIA spies in Ukraine ,about the
proxy war they have on Russia.. their observations of "Russian Army tactics"..
as they call it in the conflict..

If the report is half true.. and you remove all the assumptions and propaganda bullshit..
like their propaganda of "Russian sending 600 tanks to the Rebels cross borders.. while
Americans "denying kiev" the support of lethal weapons and Stinger missiles.. "to not provoke them" and create a major conflict..  Or the claim that Obama banned its military from going to the front line.. so is a half bullshit , half interesting to read report. Or How Russia "is becoming
more aggressive" violating the cease of fire.. etc.. and zero mention of the bastard American
(that i hope burn in hell).. of the thousands civilians killed by the help they give to nazis in kiev.
he even calls the conflict a "Russo-Ukrainian" war.. as if Americans have nothing to do with it.. and there are not forces in Donetsk and Lugansk that oppose kiev and took a gun to fight.. is classic Imbeciles NEOCON propaganda.. who wrote the report.. in any case..

The report is half interesting to read.. and claim some things that you wonder if they
are true or not.. specially the drone war..and counter electronic warfare.. .But  at the same time shows his ignorance of Russian army capabilities and military hardware and precision weapons..

http://www.scribd.com/doc/274009061/Lessons-Learned-From-the-Russo-Ukraine-War#scribd


My question is.. he recommend in the end to Supply Ukraine with drones armed with missiles
that can fly at very high altitude up to (12,500 meters)  like the reaper drone  MQ-9 that can do direct fire..

as everyone know manpads cannot reach such altitudes.. at best ~9,000 m.  My question is
does Russia have drones that can fly that high?

Well, I think last week or the week before, coal supplies to Ukraine were stopped. Seems it is not so simple in practise. The TPP at Zuevskaya, which is in DNR territory between Makeevka and Shaktyersk, can only work properly if it has a type of coal that is not mined in DNR. So, coal deliveries resume to Ukraine in return for the anthracite needed for the TPP. But, coal from DNR only goes to DTEK, owned of course by Akhmetov. I don't have a link, but this was from an announcement by DNR minister of transport, Semyon Kuzmenko.

Complete turn around from the events of last month. Is there a genuine worry about the country falling apart coming from Washington? Have they seen the proverbial writing on the wall?

Wouldn't hold my breath though, might just be smoke and mirrors. If there's been no offensive by the end of October... It'll be a start at least.

Take a look at how this Sick Sociopath NEOCONS think.. from the previous link..
as he call it.. the "Russo -Ukraine war".. This sick people do they really believe their crap?
You will not believe it.. how they think. take a look..


American Strategy and the U.S army

For nearly a hundred years the American forces had a major responsibility
defending democracy in Europe..  and helping securing peace for the continent.
in 2 world wars a million of US servicement were killed ,"fulfilling that mission in the region."

Ukraine have held a "free democratic" elections and the constitution being "reformed.."

This people are really sick ,mentally ill , they talk as if they were Gods and that the world
without them cannot exist.      The whole Report of the "Russo -Ukraine war."
Not a single mention of the civilians being systematically killed by Kiev, the witch hunt on
ethnic Russians in Ukraine and not a single mention of american interference and supplying weapons to kiev to sabotage te ceasefire.. According to him.. Ukraine did a miracle in holding
the Russian army on its positions..     Is like totally reverse logic .. of a mentally sick man.