Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

Big_Gazza wrote:The new mast and AESA radar panels is a great upgrade but the lack of a UKSK is still the 20350s achilles heel. It simply can't achieve its potential without the ability to carry the current crop of heavy ordnances like Kalibre, Oniks & Zircon.

They are primarily anti-sub platforms so UKSK is not a priority especially when you take into account pricetag and build speed

They need these ships to replace all those Soviet anti-sub boats so speed is a priority and considering that they don't exactly operate far away from coastline and aircraft cover they don't need UKSK especially since Karakurts and Bastions are always close by

The two 20385's currently being built and 20386 follow-ons are to be fitted with UKSK launchers.

It would make them more flexible to have UKSK launchers, and for the anti sub role the UKSK can carry the 91ER1 ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo to the target at supersonic speeds.

Of course they don't need to load expensive weapons.... they could easily adapt cheaper weapons to use the tubes of the UKSK... the size means you could easily make Kh-35 or even Kh-31 variants that could be loaded and launched from these tubes and not cost a million dollars per launch.

Once at sea you really can't even tell if the launch tubes are even carrying anything at all... for many patrol missions they might remain empty.

They are primarily anti-sub platforms so UKSK is not a priority especially when you take into account pricetag and build speed

They need these ships to replace all those Soviet anti-sub boats so speed is a priority

Thing about that is the Zaslon radar system is likely the major cost increase that caused 20385 to be 'too expensive'.
Certainly UKSK & extra Reduts are a part of the 'too expensive' but I'd expected a somewhat cut-down version of Zaslon for these budget sensitive follow ups.

But I absolutely agree: they need to settle on one config and build a bunch of them at pace to get new hulls in the water.

One thing people seem to overlook is that while Uran launcher is currently equipped with Kh-35 missile it doesn't necessarily mean it will use only that one model forever, nothing is stopping them from developing new Uran-compatible missile down the road

IMO good approach would be to do with Kh-35 what they already did with Kh-55 when they converted it to Kh-101/102 which is to upgrade existing missile and then wrap it in low-observable package

This way they could get something similar to Naval Strike Missile without too much hassle which would fit on every ship with Uran launcher

I'm still inclined to believe the 'small Zircon' will be a version for Uran launcher tubes.

One thing people seem to overlook is that while Uran launcher is currently equipped with Kh-35 missile it doesn't necessarily mean it will use only that one model forever, nothing is stopping them from developing new Uran-compatible missile down the road

IMO good approach would be to do with Kh-35 what they already did with Kh-55 when they converted it to Kh-101/102 which is to upgrade existing missile and then wrap it in low-observable package

This way they could get something similar to Naval Strike Missile without too much hassle which would fit on every ship with Uran launcher

The problem was that the Uran was supposed to be the cheap light small anti ship missile... making it bigger and heavier and more expensive makes little sense...

Also, the Kh-55 is not really related to the Kh-101/102 which basically replaced the older design for the Air Force... the Kh-101 is basically a much bigger missile designed to fill the rotary launcher space in the Tu-160... and be carried externally on the Bear.

The RK-55 is the naval equivalent that is called Granat that also has nothing to do with either air force missiles.

The new missiles they will be working on for the navy will mimic what happened with the air force... the first RK-55s had to fit into a torpedo tube, but the new missiles can be made much larger volume because they fit into UKSK tubes which are much bigger...

The odds are very high they will continue to upgrade the Uran, but not with the intention of replacing bigger more capable missiles... it will always be something to damage a ship rather than sink a carrier like their bigger much faster models like Granit and Onyx and now Zircon are supposed to.

I suspect they are already working on more passive guidance systems for sneak attacks, but I also think they will likely be used on all their missile types and their bigger missiles will likely be fitted with both active and passive guidance to make them more effective... because why wouldn't you?

I think the Uran will be used on small ships and will remain a fairly potent weapon... with the new UKSK-M they might develop an adapter to load a couple in a tube for specific roles including light land attack capability or for use against smaller ships... and as a cheaper option or perhaps a super stealthy option with an IIR seeker.

I would not write the weapon off... it certainly has its uses and would be a potent weapon, but they are also making Zircon and might develop air launched mini versions like the smaller versions of Onyx (Brahmos) for carrying in larger numbers on big aircraft (Flankers) and for carriage on smaller aircraft too like MiG-35s, which suggest a smaller lighter model that might be possible to launch from Uran type launchers on smaller ships too...

GarryB wrote:

One thing people seem to overlook is that while Uran launcher is currently equipped with Kh-35 missile it doesn't necessarily mean it will use only that one model forever, nothing is stopping them from developing new Uran-compatible missile down the road

IMO good approach would be to do with Kh-35 what they already did with Kh-55 when they converted it to Kh-101/102 which is to upgrade existing missile and then wrap it in low-observable package

This way they could get something similar to Naval Strike Missile without too much hassle which would fit on every ship with Uran launcher

The problem was that the Uran was supposed to be the cheap light small anti ship missile... making it bigger and heavier and more expensive makes little sense...

Also, the Kh-55 is not really related to the Kh-101/102 which basically replaced the older design for the Air Force... the Kh-101 is basically a much bigger missile designed to fill the rotary launcher space in the Tu-160... and be carried externally on the Bear.

The RK-55 is the naval equivalent that is called Granat that also has nothing to do with either air force missiles.

The new missiles they will be working on for the navy will mimic what happened with the air force... the first RK-55s had to fit into a torpedo tube, but the new missiles can be made much larger volume because they fit into UKSK tubes which are much bigger...

The odds are very high they will continue to upgrade the Uran, but not with the intention of replacing bigger more capable missiles... it will always be something to damage a ship rather than sink a carrier like their bigger much faster models like Granit and Onyx and now Zircon are supposed to.

I suspect they are already working on more passive guidance systems for sneak attacks, but I also think they will likely be used on all their missile types and their bigger missiles will likely be fitted with both active and passive guidance to make them more effective... because why wouldn't you?

I think the Uran will be used on small ships and will remain a fairly potent weapon... with the new UKSK-M they might develop an adapter to load a couple in a tube for specific roles including light land attack capability or for use against smaller ships... and as a cheaper option or perhaps a super stealthy option with an IIR seeker.

I would not write the weapon off... it certainly has its uses and would be a potent weapon, but they are also making Zircon and might develop air launched mini versions like the smaller versions of Onyx (Brahmos) for carrying in larger numbers on big aircraft (Flankers) and for carriage on smaller aircraft too like MiG-35s, which suggest a smaller lighter model that might be possible to launch from Uran type launchers on smaller ships too...

Yeah the Uran is thought for target ships up to 5000 tons in displacement.

Of corse it can damage also bigger ships, but probably the data that the navy has showed that it is not enough to sink or mission kill a destroyer or a larger ship in most cases.

For the development of a stealth missile I suspect the Kalibr family would make more sense

First of all because it's a UKSK-compatible missile and can be launched from all the new platforms

But more importantly, because it has variants with a supersonic terminal stage. That would be an ideal stealth missile; one that creeps up to the target as much as possible, but inevitably it will be detected at some distance - and at that stage it can switch the supersonic on and close distance with the target as quickly as possible to minimize their reaction time.

Laid down in 2011. Launched in 2017. Should be commissioned this year. If not, hopefully next year. First AESA equipped Russian corvette.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gremyashchiy-class_corvette

https://twitter.com/capt_navy/status/1130192108252520451?lang=en

Modern radars have home on jam which is just a passive radar mode. There is no need for two versions unless you want it to lock on L band radar which is mainly used for surveillance radars.

My understanding is that the Kh-35 uses MMW radar frequency radar which is rather difficult to jam and develop ARMs for use against, the passive radar homing I am suggesting is for use against air defence and search radars used on ships which are almost always cm wave or larger wave radars for which a MMW radar antenna would not be suitable to detect... it would need to be like the radar seeker fitted to some Kh-31 ARMs which have a passive antenna.

A directional L band radar would be tricky to fit in to a missile nose sized antenna... the radar used in the Su-57 and Su-35 is an array that fits in the wing leading edge and includes multiple elements to get directional performance.

(ie you can't just take one AESA radar TR element from a radar and use that as a seeker for a missile...)

Uran doesn't take space. For exemple the back of kirovs has space for a good amount of them.

??? So Uran does not take space but Kirovs (enormous ships by the way) have lots of space for them... ???

That surface area is empty for a reason.... RCS... plus if you are going to cover a battle cruiser in missile tubes it would make more sense to cover it in advanced TOR missiles because such a big ship is going to be the focus of enemy forces till it is dead like the Bismark....

Bigger doesn't mean more expensive. If you keep the same missile but increase just fuel section to hit further.

But there are already bigger missiles with more fuel already able to do the job... why make the Kh-35 bigger and longer ranged when the Club family of missiles includes very long range low flying subsonic land attack and anti ship missiles?

They could even be scaled up to fully fit their UKSK launch tubes with ranges of thousands of kms if needed...

There is even versions with supersonic terminal portions that increase the chance of penetrating the defences of even the most modern ships...

260km is not enough for russians which make anti ship missiles with ranges greater than 500km.

For patrol boats and corvettes it is plenty... for operations no out in the middle of the Pacific or Atlantic it is plenty too.

In the middle of pacific or atlantic a kirov can use the kh35 to hit tankers and refueling ships while keeping the uksk for warships. Then its better ifbyour kh-35 has a range of 500-600km as you can cover more space and forbid the area to refueling/transport ships.

I would suspect their priority will be other platforms... anything could take out a tanker or refuelling ship or cargo vessel... and against protected ships defending themselves Onyx and Zircon can do it with one or two missiles instead of having to launch a volley to overwhelm them...

For the development of a stealth missile I suspect the Kalibr family would make more sense

Indeed, they already probably have excellent range and capable seekers...

But more importantly, because it has variants with a supersonic terminal stage. That would be an ideal stealth missile; one that creeps up to the target as much as possible, but inevitably it will be detected at some distance - and at that stage it can switch the supersonic on and close distance with the target as quickly as possible to minimize their reaction time.

Agree... in fact with new scramjet technology they could redesign it... currently it uses a turbojet engine and lots of fuel for a long subsonic flight to the target where the second stage solid rocket fuelled motor accelerates the missile for the last 20-30km of the attack... imagine a missile that can detect when it is being tracked and instead of a turbofan engine it has a scramjet engine... so it is flying along at subsonic speed really low on this scramjet engine... it is detected so it fires the solid rocket booster that burns and accelerates the missile from mach 0.7 up to mach 2.9... but instead of dumping the subsonic portion it then sheds the solid rocket portion and maybe the now empty 3/4ths fuel tank so what is left is the scramjet, some fuel, and the guidance system and warhead... the scramjet is now maintaining speed and perhaps slowly accelerating the weapon to higher and higher speeds.

The reason for this is with the standard missile if it is detected 100km from the ship then it has to either fly 70km at subsonic speeds and risk interception, or accelerate to almost mach 3 but run out of energy before it gets to the ship target and basically hit the water.

With this modification, the solid rocket booster is now to push the entire weapon up to speeds where the scramjet can more efficiently not only maintain speeds but also perhaps accelerate further over a greater distance than a solid rocket could do on its own.

...or maybe just rocket/scramjet all the way like Zircon... with acceleration over the last 400km at low altitude using the scramjet motor alone...

Retivy on the water

During its trials at the Northern Fleet’s naval ranges, the cutting-edge corvette fired Kalibr and Oniks cruise missiles against coastal and sea targets in the White Sea and then held firings from A-190 and AK-630 artillery guns against simulated air targets in the Barents Sea and practiced torpedo fire against underwater and surface targets, using its latest shipborne weapons.

The ship damage control exercise and its towing were the last element of the corvette’s trials at the Northern Fleet’s naval ranges.

Notice what is missing from this list?

hoom wrote:

During its trials at the Northern Fleet’s naval ranges, the cutting-edge corvette fired Kalibr and Oniks cruise missiles against coastal and sea targets in the White Sea and then held firings from A-190 and AK-630 artillery guns against simulated air targets in the Barents Sea and practiced torpedo fire against underwater and surface targets, using its latest shipborne weapons.

The ship damage control exercise and its towing were the last element of the corvette’s trials at the Northern Fleet’s naval ranges.

Notice what is missing from this list?

Redut firings? Paket?

Zircon?

Do I get a prize if I guess?

Of course it was tested.

I don't think it was.
We've seen this sort of thing before: Gorshkov tested everything else but the Poliment-Redut, then when they did 'moved right 3 years to fix poliment-redut'.

Zaslon-redut is the big thing for this ship, a multi-factor & complex system (3 frequencies of radar & new-gen EW/ECM suite including via the radars).
Its the thing that needs the most testing to be sure it works, especially given the well known issues with Furke-redut & Poliment-redut, yet no mention at all.

Hole wrote:

Isos wrote:He is talking about redut

Media are biased when talking about weaponery. Their expert can't differentiate a ballistic missile from a cruise missile. Of course it was tested.

The russians even test the toilet flush. Or the lightning in the refrigerator. If they don´t work properly the whole ship is send back to the Yard.

...as opposed to the Muricans whose military accepts whatever BS products the privately-owned for-profit MIC deems fit for them, even when its buggy junk like F-35s or Ford-class CVNs that fail every test

In an ideal world the MIC industries don't make any cash. The prices charged should equal the costs of R&D, investment in plant & equipment, and actual construction activities. No extras as these simply add to the pressure on the public purse. MIC exists SOLELY to produce the defense products required by the nation, not to enrich some parasitic money-men.

I don't think it was.
We've seen this sort of thing before: Gorshkov tested everything else but the Poliment-Redut, then when they did 'moved right 3 years to fix poliment-redut'.

Zaslon-redut is the big thing for this ship, a multi-factor & complex system (3 frequencies of radar & new-gen EW/ECM suite including via the radars).
Its the thing that needs the most testing to be sure it works, especially given the well known issues with Furke-redut & Poliment-redut, yet no mention at all.

Well quite often things are made that include components that are not quite ready yet and might take rather more time.

A good example is the naval TOR system which took a seriously long time to get right so many vessels that were launched with it not working yet looked strange because they obviously had the missile tubes fitted but not the guidance towers which came later.

The choice is either to go with previous generation alternatives... in the case of the Klintock then an OSA launcher would be fitted till the Klintok system was working... but obviously fitting a Klintok to the ship makes testing on a real ship actually possible so it greatly speeds up getting the system into service.

Getting ships with the system on board into the water means it can be properly tested and the bugs worked out... if it does not work at long range for a year or three that really does not matter much... especially when the short range missiles are the important ones anyway.

Later when everything works it will be great... in comparison look at all the problems with the F-35 or Ford class... in comparison it is much simpler to deal with.