Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

In the videos ffrom the repair/refit you can see that replacing the weapons/electronics is the fun part. Most of the pipes and cables are replaced, which is complicated/time expensive in a completed ship, as you said.

I guess to give the job to another yard is something like a test for their modernisation/reorganisation.

I doubt they will do many more like this. I think they want to order the Leider and the Nakhimov and PTG are to test and develop the weapons suite for Leider, and both these shipyards will be building Leiders if they prove capable..

mnztr wrote:does it make sense to use a different shipyard to rebuild the next one?

after completing work the first yard has experience and qualified workers and subcontractors' network. Then to change?

Maybe to give another yard the same experience.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

mnztr wrote:does it make sense to use a different shipyard to rebuild the next one?

after completing work the first yard has experience and qualified workers and subcontractors' network. Then  to change?  

yes it seems inefficient...especially with only 2 ships

Hole wrote:Maybe to give another yard the same experience.

another year can start then LHA or building Gorshkov for example? IMHO mor eefficient

mnztr wrote:
yes it seems inefficient...especially with only 2 ships

especially that this is a sort of reverse-engineering work. Not much knowledge all mechanisms is left to my guess. Then design new ones. But very likely also to test solutions used for Liders in near future.

My guess is that they have other plans for Sevmash once the Nahkimov is refloated, and they don't want to tie her up for another 4 years on PtG modernisation.

Yes I was of the understanding Sevmash is getting a big upgrade once Nakhimov is out.

Fairly likely that Nakhimov hasn't been as profitable as hoped due to much more/harder work.
Or PtG been taken off them for taking too long/too much corruption...

I think it's possible PtG modernization, as done on Nakhimov, would never be done.
The main weapon, P700 missile system is not as outdated, the ship itself is sailing from less than 25 years and is in good conditions. I think would go for a light refit of wearing parts, some electronics upgrade and maybe a reactors refuel if needed. Would be very smart to me if they ADD UKSK cells for kaliber and tsirkon when will be ready to be equipped instead of removing p700 compartment to make place for them. Uksk system is way more compact then P700.

Btw I found this video, focus on the nakhimov parts

Both parties, are probly blaming each other and demanding more money to "resolve" the problem whichever gets the money, the other gets a cut.
Everyone wins, except the the tax payer of course.

Order.227 for both of them as far as i am concerned.

Hang on... you don't know, but you are assuming this to be the case...

Therefore I guess you think Putin is directly responsible for the Skripal case too?

They are too fucking lazy and too fucking stupid to actually wait for a real investigation or explanation, and they just have a list of badguys... if it had been an Exocet missile then obviously they would have blamed France...

Perhaps when the Russian MIC magically gets transformed into the bloated and corrupt US MIC then you might have a point in this regard, and lets face it... you can really only blame the mother for continuing to feed the 200kg fat kid... of course the fat kid will wolf down that KFC... it doesn't realise the problem...

In the US the problem is that the mother eventually gets a job at KFC when she stops being the foster mum so of course she wants the kid hooked on those products before she leaves her post in government and gets a cushy job at KFC that does not require any real work except maintain that relationship with the new foster mother...

I suppose its not the Soviet era anymore, and with complex ships its often harder to strip and rebuild than it is to build new.

Taking out all the old wiring and piping and replacing many of the old components from pumps and systems, to all the computers and electronics takes time... and then you have to reconfigure it to allow the new components to fit and work.

Of course the other aspect is... what is the hurry? When built there was a cold war on where big scary ships would be useful... the current cold war is mostly economic so big scary ships are not so valuable... little ships with lots of missiles are good enough for now.

In 5-10 years time however, being able to sail to Africa or south america or Asia will be impressive for the countries you go to, and ensure no problems for rights of passage and access to various far flung markets...

Given that PtG is active and maintained in good condition, its expected her upgrade will be a much less costly affair. Fingers crossed...

does it make sense to use a different shipyard to rebuild the next one?

This is another aspect as well, but of course each of the Kirov class vessels were different, so each upgrade will also be different too.

Plus of course, you need space and a labour force qualified for the work, but also giving different shipyards work is good for them and should make it faster.

I guess to give the job to another yard is something like a test for their modernisation/reorganisation.

The experience of planning and executing an upgrade on this sort of scale would be a good challenge for any major shipyard, and of course you never know what you might find when you crack her open and have a proper look.

I doubt they will do many more like this. I think they want to order the Leider and the Nakhimov and PTG are to test and develop the weapons suite for Leider, and both these shipyards will be building Leiders if they prove capable..

The thing is that the new systems are modular... you don't really have the small missiles for small boats and big missiles for big boats... a small boat might carry one UKSK launcher for 8 missiles, while a cruiser might carry 10 UKSK launchers for 80 missiles... a destroyer might have 4-6 UKSK launchers depending on the design. But with sensors a cruiser is going to have rather big AESA radar arrays, so new arrays are needed for big ships and other scaled up systems will also be needed.

Upgrading the Kirov class ships with systems intended for the new cruisers is valuable experience and testing that can be available to the fleet much faster than on a lider layed down even now, let alone in 5-6 years time.

after completing work the first yard has experience and qualified workers and subcontractors' network. Then to change?

No two jobs will be the same... even two Kirov class boats are different enough in the details... upgrade then new ship... why not?

yes it seems inefficient...especially with only 2 ships

Well, put it this way... if it is going to tie up the shipyard for 5 years each boat then putting them both through the same yard means you will have people who have 10 years experience but not in making new boats... upgrading old boats.

Instead if you use different yards they get 5 years experience planning and implementing an upgrade using new systems and technology and equipment and then they can build a new ship with those new systems and technology... or start upgrades on Slava class ships or Udaloy class vessels.

I think it's possible PtG modernization, as done on Nakhimov, would never be done.
The main weapon, P700 missile system is not as outdated, the ship itself is sailing from less than 25 years and is in good conditions. I think would go for a light refit of wearing parts, some electronics upgrade and maybe a reactors refuel if needed. Would be very smart to me if they ADD UKSK cells for kaliber and tsirkon when will be ready to be equipped instead of removing p700 compartment to make place for them. Uksk system is way more compact then P700.

During the cold war the Soviets made a wide range of specialised ships, each optimised for a role, with their own special propulsion, sensors, and armament, while the bigger vessels had multirole systems... ie anti sub rockets and torpedos etc etc, many of the smaller ships were rather specialised.

Today they want multirole, and they also want design unification... Granit is a powerful and capable missile, but has been replaced with Onyx and soon to be replaced with Zircon.

In terms of operations it is more useful to be able to eliminate a missile from your stock and replace it with a standardised type, which is what they would be doing with UKSK launch bins. All the plans I have read say the Kirov upgrade at the very minimum is all about the replacement of the Granit launch bins with the UKSK launcher bins.

They might keep Rif and Rif-M, and Klintok, but with the newer missiles, though I hope they get S-400 level SAMs too, but UKSK bins are a bare minimum for the upgrade.

It would be interesting to see the performance and size and weight difference replacing all that 1980s computer hardware with modern systems and equipment, but I doubt they will reveal that sort of information.

A couple of buildings worth of main frame computers replaced with wardrobe sized supercomputers...

BTW it is a forum rule that you first post is an introductions in the rules and introductions section...

GarryB wrote:Taking out all the old wiring and piping and replacing many of the old components from pumps and systems, to all the computers and electronics takes time...

Yep, you wouldn't believe how much engineering effort and manpower goes into ripping out and replacing cabling, piping & tubing and all of the associated cable transit boxes. Good lord but its a long drawn-out painful process, and if its not planned correctly (and you need to redesign due to addition of extra services during construction) it soon becomes a sanity-threatening work front...

GarryB wrote:

I think it's possible PtG modernization, as done on Nakhimov, would never be done.
The main weapon, P700 missile system is not as outdated, the ship itself is sailing from less than 25 years and is in good conditions. I think would go for a light refit of wearing parts, some electronics upgrade and maybe a reactors refuel if needed. Would be very smart to me if they ADD UKSK cells for kaliber and tsirkon when will be ready to be equipped instead of removing p700 compartment to make place for them. Uksk system is way more compact then P700.

During the cold war the Soviets made a wide range of specialised ships, each optimised for a role, with their own special propulsion, sensors, and armament, while the bigger vessels had multirole systems... ie anti sub rockets and torpedos etc etc, many of the smaller ships were rather specialised.

Today they want multirole, and they also want design unification... Granit is a powerful and capable missile, but has been replaced with Onyx and soon to be replaced with Zircon.

In terms of operations it is more useful to be able to eliminate a missile from your stock and replace it with a standardised type, which is what they would be doing with UKSK launch bins. All the plans I have read say the Kirov upgrade at the very minimum is all about the replacement of the Granit launch bins with the UKSK launcher bins.

They might keep Rif and Rif-M, and Klintok, but with the newer missiles, though I hope they get S-400 level SAMs too, but UKSK bins are a bare minimum for the upgrade.

It would be interesting to see the performance and size and weight difference replacing all that 1980s computer hardware with modern systems and equipment, but I doubt they will reveal that sort of information.

A couple of buildings worth of main frame computers replaced with wardrobe sized supercomputers...

BTW it is a forum rule that you first post is an introductions in the rules and introductions section...

Thank you for remembering.me the forum rule, just attended at it.

I know the advantages of standardization of weapon systems, but since PtG systems are in perfect working order would'nt be fool to keep Granits (still Russia has good stock of them) for anti ship task and just adding UKSK fitted with klibers to implement land attack cm skills? Would be way easier and cheaper even considering to stock and service two full salvo of them (40) to not scrap and rebuild that ship section.

Just one Granit hit can take out a carrier from battlefield, it's sure they would get the same result with so smaller and lighter missiles as oniks and tsirkon then? Know tsorkon is hypersonic but they are sure in a 25years lifespan USN could'nt deploy hulls with reactive curtain as tanks? Seems fantasy now but with proliferation of hypersonics that is a possible countermeasure that would easy annhilate a little/light missile even fast as a gunshot

Yep, you wouldn't believe how much engineering effort and manpower goes into ripping out and replacing cabling, piping & tubing and all of the associated cable transit boxes. Good lord but its a long drawn-out painful process, and if its not planned correctly (and you need to redesign due to addition of extra services during construction) it soon becomes a sanity-threatening work front...

And imagine half way through... OK chaps... we are replacing a lot of this copper wire with fibre optics cable... and BTW they have changed plans for the main radar... it now needs coolant pipes because it is now AESA and not PESA...

New boats seem to have AESA arrays on their masts so I suspect this will be across the board for all ships now... Kirov class vessels just having rather more elements per antenna...

Thank you for remembering.me the forum rule, just attended at it.

No worries...

I think I posted about 60 messages before someone mentioned I had not done an intro myself...

I know the advantages of standardization of weapon systems, but since PtG systems are in perfect working order would'nt be fool to keep Granits (still Russia has good stock of them) for anti ship task and just adding UKSK fitted with klibers to implement land attack cm skills? Would be way easier and cheaper even considering to stock and service two full salvo of them (40) to not scrap and rebuild that ship section.

The problem is that you have to take out the 20 angled Granit tube launchers to put in the 10 UKSK launch bins for the new missiles... and quite frankly by the time this upgrade has finished... for both vessels it will be 2022-2025 or so, which means Zircon will be entering service.

Now a 7 ton Granit is an impressive missile with low altitude flight speeds of mach 1.6 and fairly long range of up to about 500km, while the much much lighter Onyx offers comparable speed at much less than half the weight, and you can fit 80 of them where 20 Granits are fitted currently, but when these vessels are going back into the water the Zircon will be in service... so mach 6-8 at high altitude and a flight range most likely in the 800-1,000km range... 80 vs 20... it very much is a no brainer.

Now I agree the recent upgrades to the Granits suggest they want to keep them, but upgrades to Oscars to replace them with Onyx (replace 24 with 72) and likely eventually you have to say they will likely use up the Granits.

From memory Granits were no longer in production in Russia... it was only Vulkan (P-1000) that were being made, but they were also not new systems that don't really offer any huge advantage over the new missiles, yet are bigger and heavier.

I am sure in the future that old Granits and Vulkans and other such missiles will offer excellent defence training for ships and land bases, but the replacements are here and it makes so much sense to move on.

Not only is performance better, but it is much more flexible... you could load 40 Zircons in an upgraded Kirov and double its previous fire power, but also carry land attack cruise missiles... plus anti sub weapons... and currently even the old Granits got land attack capability, so I would expect the same for Zircon.

Just one Granit hit can take out a carrier from battlefield, it's sure they would get the same result with so smaller and lighter missiles as oniks and tsirkon then?

Actually you would be surprised... those smaller lighter missiles are also moving more than twice as fast.

One hit from any of these weapons and the carrier is no longer an active chess piece... it will limp away and try to do its best to remain floating... a mach 8 dive from a Zircon will punch a hole from the deck to sea water... if it then explodes in the water the enormous bubble created by the impact and explosion would break the back and sink any ship...

Ironically standard procedure with incoming threats is to turn end on so the missile hits the bow or the stern, to make as small a target as possible, but with a hypersonic missile that just means a deeply penetrating threat can do even more damage than punching in one side and out the other...

Know tsorkon is hypersonic but they are sure in a 25years lifespan USN could'nt deploy hulls with reactive curtain as tanks? Seems fantasy now but with proliferation of hypersonics that is a possible countermeasure that would easy annhilate a little/light missile even fast as a gunshot

I would say the best defence against hypersonic weapons would be lasers... simply because the speed of the interceptor makes interception calculations more practical... but then the Russians are developing laser systems to transfer energy collected in one place to another... which means being able to absorb the energy in a laser beam and convert it into electricity...

GarryB wrote:

I know the advantages of standardization of weapon systems, but since PtG systems are in perfect working order would'nt be fool to keep Granits (still Russia has good stock of them) for anti ship task and just adding UKSK fitted with klibers to implement land attack cm skills? Would be way easier and cheaper even considering to stock and service two full salvo of them (40) to not scrap and rebuild that ship section.

The problem is that you have to take out the 20 angled Granit tube launchers to put in the 10 UKSK launch bins for the new missiles... and quite frankly by the time this upgrade has finished... for both vessels it will be 2022-2025 or so, which means Zircon will be entering service.

Now a 7 ton Granit is an impressive missile with low altitude flight speeds of mach 1.6 and fairly long range of up to about 500km, while the much much lighter Onyx offers comparable speed at much less than half the weight, and you can fit 80 of them where 20 Granits are fitted currently, but when these vessels are going back into the water the Zircon will be in service... so mach 6-8 at high altitude and a flight range most likely in the 800-1,000km range... 80 vs 20... it very much is a no brainer.

Now I agree the recent upgrades to the Granits suggest they want to keep them, but upgrades to Oscars to replace them with Onyx (replace 24 with 72) and likely eventually you have to say they will likely use up the Granits.

From memory Granits were no longer in production in Russia... it was only Vulkan (P-1000) that were being made, but they were also not new systems that don't really offer any huge advantage over the new missiles, yet are bigger and heavier.

I am sure in the future that old Granits and Vulkans and other such missiles will offer excellent defence training for ships and land bases, but the replacements are here and it makes so much sense to move on.

Not only is performance better, but it is much more flexible... you could load 40 Zircons in an upgraded Kirov and double its previous fire power, but also carry land attack cruise missiles... plus anti sub weapons... and currently even the old Granits got land attack capability, so I would expect the same for Zircon.

Just one Granit hit can take out a carrier from battlefield, it's sure they would get the same result with so smaller and lighter missiles as oniks and tsirkon then?

Actually you would be surprised... those smaller lighter missiles are also moving more than twice as fast.

One hit from any of these weapons and the carrier is no longer an active chess piece... it will limp away and try to do its best to remain floating... a mach 8 dive from a Zircon will punch a hole from the deck to sea water... if it then explodes in the water the enormous bubble created by the impact and explosion would break the back and sink any ship...

Ironically standard procedure with incoming threats is to turn end on so the missile hits the bow or the stern, to make as small a target as possible, but with a hypersonic missile that just means a deeply penetrating threat can do even more damage than punching in one side and out the other...

Know tsorkon is hypersonic but they are sure in a 25years lifespan USN could'nt deploy hulls with reactive curtain as tanks? Seems fantasy now but with proliferation of hypersonics that is a possible countermeasure that would easy annhilate a little/light missile even fast as a gunshot

I would say the best defence against hypersonic weapons would be lasers... simply because the speed of the interceptor makes interception calculations more practical... but then the Russians are developing laser systems to transfer energy collected in one place to another... which means being able to absorb the energy in a laser beam and convert it into electricity...

Very interesting confrontation Garry.

That's exactly the fact they recently fitted minor upgrades on granits that not fit with the project of decommissioning that weapon system. They were used on Kirov, Oscars and Kutznetsov too has Granits silos (someone says empty from many years now), why to spend money in upgrades even cheap if they are going to be replaced with UKSK launchers? I have 5 hypotesis:

1) Upgrades just to use them in future training and AShM countermesures test?
2) old stock clearance sell to some middle east or asiatic country, but those countries don't have ships to install such a gigantic weapon system.
3) use or sell them as coastal bastion? Their long range makes this hypothesis non so unbelievable but there are way cheaper alternstives even in Russian export catalog.
4) keeping them all stocked and serviced for Kuznetsov shells backup?
5) the only thing that makes sense to me is IF (and I don't know it) the PLAN completed the Kiznetsov's sister, Liaoning saving the original Granits silos under the deck or the place for them at least, they would be interested in giving her that upgrade.

That's exactly the fact they recently fitted minor upgrades on granits that not fit with the project of decommissioning that weapon system.

Every few years you check your missile stocks to make sure they are working... batteries don't last forever, chemicals break down and stop working as expected etc etc... even leaks can damage electronics.

When you check you find problems and address them... but sometimes old electronic parts are no longer made any more, or they are but now the country that made them is hostile and the company is not making those parts any more anyway.

The point is that replacing those old parts with new parts can extend effective life and make them easier and simpler to support.

They said they gave Granit land attack capability... do you think they reprogrammed the old electronics or dropped in new electronics and updated the software?

The point is that they have a tradition of upgrading things right up until they are cancelled... including older platforms and weapons... Tochka got optical guidance systems when Iskander got them because they were the same, but Tochka units are still being withdrawn and replaced by Iskander... by your logic their upgrade should have kept them in service for another half decade or so.

1) Upgrades just to use them in future training and AShM countermesures test?

Replace old parts to keep them cheaper and easier to operate and to give new capabilities for further relevant training.

2) old stock clearance sell to some middle east or asiatic country, but those countries don't have ships to install such a gigantic weapon system.

The west would kill to get its hands on some Granits for testing... so no.

3) use or sell them as coastal bastion? Their long range makes this hypothesis non so unbelievable but there are way cheaper alternstives even in Russian export catalog.

They would be ideal training systems for ship defence systems and aircraft interception training... I have read MiG-31s trained against Granits... and it took two direct hits from R-33s to take down the granit missile (it has titanium armour in the nose)... The large HE warhead can be replaced with telemetry equipment and other things like Chaff or Flare launchers or jammers to further make the task of defeating them harder on the defence.

4) keeping them all stocked and serviced for Kuznetsov shells backup?

I would say if it is worth replacing in Kirov and Slava class ships, then it makes sense to eliminate it from the navy... imagine the K sails from the Pacific Fleet to the northern fleet port only to have to ship 7 ton Granits because they don't have any in every port. They will have missiles for the UKSK launchers because every ship will have those...

5) the only thing that makes sense to me is IF (and I don't know it) the PLAN completed the Kiznetsov's sister, Liaoning saving the original Granits silos under the deck or the place for them at least, they would be interested in giving her that upgrade.

Russia has already sold China Yakhont missiles, I don't think they will want to sell them Granits... especially as they don't make them any more.

Couple of recent progress pics


Still not a lot of sign of external progress, hopefully a lot more going on inside.

Most radars and so on will be fitted when the ship is back in the water.

Some new quote about 'new unified launchers', unclear whether he means UKSK we already knew its getting or there has been a change to UKSK-M
https://topwar.ru/155949-takr-admiral-nahimov-poluchit-novye-puskovye-ustanovki-dlja-raket.html
http://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=504620&lang=RU

After upgrading, the Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear missile cruiser will receive unified launchers and will be able to carry various types of missiles, the Russian Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov told Interfax.
"Based on the concept of unification of launchers, which the Navy implements, this ship will be able to carry various types of missiles," he said, answering the question whether the ship would receive a new strike weapon, the Caliber and Zircon missiles, after repair.

Hull is not that bad after 20 years rusting in Vkadivostok.
Chinese could refurbish her pretty fast. Maybe they should send here in China and send back in russian shipyard for weapons.

Capt(N)
@Capt_Navy
#ВМФ #ТОФ????????#Russian #Navy RFS 015 ‘Admiral Lazarev’(former ‘Frunze’),a Kirov Class missile battlecruiser in Strelok Bay near #Vladivostok, Russia on March 2019.

She was commissioned in 1984 and in 1999 the cruiser was taken out of service...This is the death a decades-long.

Isos wrote:Hull is not that bad after 20 years rusting in Vkadivostok.
Chinese could refurbish her pretty fast. Maybe they should send here in China and send back in russian shipyard for weapons.

Capt(N)
@Capt_Navy
#ВМФ #ТОФ????????#Russian #Navy RFS 015 ‘Admiral Lazarev’(former ‘Frunze’),a Kirov Class missile battlecruiser in Strelok Bay near #Vladivostok, Russia on March 2019.

She was commissioned in 1984 and in 1999 the cruiser was taken out of service...This is the death a decades-long.

[img]http://i.servimg.com/u/f71/19/35/56/92/d27bvo10.jpg

Busted reactor is the problem not rust.

Also as Nakhimonov has shown overhaul will take 3 time longer than originally advertised.

This one stays where it is, better to redirect money into Gorshkovs.

Some new quote about 'new unified launchers', unclear whether he means UKSK we already knew its getting or there has been a change to UKSK-M

A unified launcher that can carry various types of missiles... if this is UKSK-M and if the UKSK-M is supposed to also replace Poliment Redut launchers, then they will be fitting it to replace both the Granits (10 UKSK launchers) but also Rif launchers... because with the Redut launchers and UKSK launchers you get 10 UKSK and Redut replaces Rif, but if you can put SAMs and Cruise missiles in the UKSK-M then you replace all redut and UKSK launchers... and in theory Shtil and Klintok launchers too with the UKSK-M.

This will be very interesting...

Busted reactor is the problem not rust.

Opportunity to try one of their new NPPs... they didn't have powerful enough NPPs when it was built so it had a complicated arrangements of gas turbines and a NPP... now they might be able to replace it all with a much more powerful NPP... save a lot of space and improve performance... and test new NPPs that will be standard on new large ships and carriers...

The ship is a floating Nuclear problem right now even if they would modernize which they have said isn't happening.

They would need to deal with the fact when the reactor cracked, it started to leak they never fixed or cleaned it up just parked it there and left it.

there are numerous reports of radiation emitting from this vessel in a dangerous manner, even the mayor of a nearby town said it's posing a problem to them.

That would take a very long time to clean up, and it would take years for the radiation to die down. The Hull is dead, why they haven't removed this hazard I don't know.