Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

Both don't even compare.

Su-35 has far longer combat range and carries a massive radar which is stupidly powerful, most powerful of most of the standard combat planes.  The Raven AESA radar has so little info on it and it barely is in service as far as anyone is concerned.  The other issue is too, that too many components from too many countries involved becomes a real hassle when it comes to maintenance and even obtaining spare parts if in case the buyer nation manages to piss off one of the makers of the subcomponents.

Gripen is a pretty mean aircraft though, so I can see how the Su-35 and Gripen would be direct competitors to Indonesia.

miketheterrible wrote:

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

Both don't even compare.

Su-35 has far longer combat range and carries a massive radar which is stupidly powerful, most powerful of most of the standard combat planes.  The Raven AESA radar has so little info on it and it barely is in service as far as anyone is concerned.  The other issue is too, that too many components from too many countries involved becomes a real hassle when it comes to maintenance and even obtaining spare parts if in case the buyer nation manages to piss off one of the makers of the subcomponents.

Gripen is a pretty mean aircraft though, so I can see how the Su-35 and Gripen would be direct competitors to Indonesia.

I can see your argument is coming from....


But muh Datalink is better than Su 35, Cheaper than Su 35, more stealthy than Su 35, Easier to maintain than Su-35, Better Avionics than Su 35, AESA better than the Ibris PESA, More Reliable Than Su 35, 3 (Or whatever fcking number Gripen Said) Su 35 downed over one Gripen Downed... etc etc etc



you get the jist XD




Hard to reason with these diehard Pro gripen folks....

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

Both don't even compare.

Su-35 has far longer combat range and carries a massive radar which is stupidly powerful, most powerful of most of the standard combat planes.  The Raven AESA radar has so little info on it and it barely is in service as far as anyone is concerned.  The other issue is too, that too many components from too many countries involved becomes a real hassle when it comes to maintenance and even obtaining spare parts if in case the buyer nation manages to piss off one of the makers of the subcomponents.

Gripen is a pretty mean aircraft though, so I can see how the Su-35 and Gripen would be direct competitors to Indonesia.

I can see your argument is coming from....


But muh Datalink is better than Su 35, Cheaper than Su 35, more stealthy than Su 35, Easier to maintain than Su-35, Better Avionics than Su 35, AESA better than the Ibris PESA, More Reliable Than  Su 35, 3 (Or whatever fcking number Gripen Said) Su 35 downed over one Gripen Downed...   etc etc etc



you get the jist XD  




Hard to reason with these diehard Pro gripen folks....    

so they use marketing statements over reality.  I would argue for being better avionics, it would be a joke since Irbis-e is the most powerful fighter Radar in use. The question to ask is the Raven AESA radar - how many T/R modules and what power usage are they? Because if they are 10 - 15W range and 1,000T/R modules, it will not compete against Su-35.  T/R modules do not operate at 100% capacity at all times. Actually, rarely they do since they have high individual failure rates due to sensitivity of the components.  PESA radar doesn't have those issues, can operate at maximum power at longer intervals without burning out.  Out of an AESA radar, 10% of its modules usually die during use.  They have better resolution in some cases and EW capabilities but added pods to Su-35 actually counters the EW capabilities of AESA and compliments Irbis-E while its resolution is great due to subcomponents (processor, antenna. I hope to eventually see elbrus 4C+ (4core 2 DPS core) used, will greatly enhance performance).

Su-35 has reduced RCS than all other Flankers due to use of composite materials.  We don't really know the exact details of its reduced RCS but some info is here and there.  Su-35 also proven its sensor fusion, I doubt Girpen had. Actually, Su-35 has proven itself compared to the competition.  The datalink one is funny since Su-35 uses AESA L band for datalink.  Does the Gripen? No. When you got components coming from 20 different countries, it isn't cheaper to maintain.

miketheterrible wrote:

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

Both don't even compare.

Su-35 has far longer combat range and carries a massive radar which is stupidly powerful, most powerful of most of the standard combat planes.  The Raven AESA radar has so little info on it and it barely is in service as far as anyone is concerned.  The other issue is too, that too many components from too many countries involved becomes a real hassle when it comes to maintenance and even obtaining spare parts if in case the buyer nation manages to piss off one of the makers of the subcomponents.

Gripen is a pretty mean aircraft though, so I can see how the Su-35 and Gripen would be direct competitors to Indonesia.

I can see your argument is coming from....


But muh Datalink is better than Su 35, Cheaper than Su 35, more stealthy than Su 35, Easier to maintain than Su-35, Better Avionics than Su 35, AESA better than the Ibris PESA, More Reliable Than  Su 35, 3 (Or whatever fcking number Gripen Said) Su 35 downed over one Gripen Downed...   etc etc etc



you get the jist XD  




Hard to reason with these diehard Pro gripen folks....    

so they use marketing statements over reality.  I would argue for being better avionics, it would be a joke since Irbis-e is the most powerful fighter Radar in use. The question to ask is the Raven AESA radar - how many T/R modules and what power usage are they? Because if they are 10 - 15W range and 1,000T/R modules, it will not compete against Su-35.  T/R modules do not operate at 100% capacity at all times. Actually, rarely they do since they have high individual failure rates due to sensitivity of the components.  PESA radar doesn't have those issues, can operate at maximum power at longer intervals without burning out.  Out of an AESA radar, 10% of its modules usually die during use.  They have better resolution in some cases and EW capabilities but added pods to Su-35 actually counters the EW capabilities of AESA and compliments Irbis-E while its resolution is great due to subcomponents (processor, antenna. I hope to eventually see elbrus 4C+ (4core 2 DPS core) used, will greatly enhance performance).

Su-35 has reduced RCS than all other Flankers due to use of composite materials.  We don't really know the exact details of its reduced RCS but some info is here and there.  Su-35 also proven its sensor fusion, I doubt Girpen had. Actually, Su-35 has proven itself compared to the competition.  The datalink one is funny since Su-35 uses AESA L band for datalink.  Does the Gripen? No.  When you got components coming from 20 different countries, it isn't cheaper to maintain.

Where does the Su 35 gets a AESA L-band?!

It is on the wings. Essentially, for IFF and other such stuff, not for tracking/scanning as far as we are aware.

Western sources believe they are for IFF purposes because they operate in the same frequency as the NATO Link 16 datalink network.

The Su-35 is not an Elint aircraft or AWACS, it is a fighter interceptor designed to engage western fighters including stealth aircraft...

Rather large and complex and expensive to be an IFF system...

And why bother with an AESA array if it is just for IFF?

Generally IFF are non directional.

This is no an IFF system... it is a radar for X band stealth aircraft.

That part in not sure about. I know little of the AESA elements used for the L band unit on this aircraft but I'm assuming they are more on the side between the wings and the body, and thus may not be ideal for detecting jets simply be a use they are not facing forward but on sides (creating a blind spot right dead center of cockpit/nose). I mean, it could be used to scan areas within the frontal view of the aircraft, giving it some eyesight to the possibility of enemy jets nearby. But the other issue is they aren't cooled by liquid cooling but by passive, meaning the power input/output won't be great, or be very minimal. So that brings into question about its intended use.

Although, it would be smart to have that. One rumor I was never able to get an answer about, so hopefully someone can, was that zaslon radar used on the later models of MiG-31 used an L band transceiver that allowed it to scan long distances for very low RCS targets, and that is how it gained its anti ballistic missile and cruise missile capabilities (since that was one of its intended use). So I don't doubt it.

But since there is little info, wouldn't the Russians be worried of China and Indonesia, etc having that tech and then disclosing it? If that is the case, then the AESA elements may not be on the export aircraft.

miketheterrible wrote:That part in not sure about. I know little of the AESA elements used for the L band unit on this aircraft but I'm assuming they are more on the side between the wings and the body, and thus may not be ideal for detecting jets simply be a use they are not facing forward but on sides (creating a blind spot right dead center of cockpit/nose).  I mean, it could be used to scan areas within the frontal view of the aircraft, giving it some eyesight to the possibility of enemy jets nearby. But the other issue is they aren't cooled by liquid cooling but by passive, meaning the power input/output won't be great, or be very minimal. So that brings into question about its intended use.

Although, it would be smart to have that. One rumor I was never able to get an answer about, so hopefully someone can, was that zaslon radar used on the later models of MiG-31 used an L band transceiver that allowed it to scan long distances for very low RCS targets, and that is how it gained its anti ballistic missile and cruise missile capabilities (since that was one of its intended use).  So I don't doubt it.

But since there is little info, wouldn't the Russians be worried of China and Indonesia, etc having that tech and then disclosing it? If that is the case, then the AESA elements may not be on the export aircraft.

Indonesia....

May be a liability...
We are as a doctrine a Neutral nation operation both US and USSR/Russian Equipment in tandem (We try merge it sometimes?)

But we might (most likely) have sympathizers to one faction in the armed forces and politics so thats where the US DIA or RF GRU might find some holes....

Still nice to get Su 35s to complement our existing F-16s and Su-27/30s







In Regards to the L-band...
My Russian friend says that is has to be large so they could utilize Narrow Beams for IFF without getting detected or sniffed by enemy ELINT or RWR....

Remember that IFF needs Radar to operate...
Also that the L-Band Might POTENTIALLY also be where the Su-35s get D-Link Connection to External Battle Management Systems (Like AWACS, Ground control or Sigma on a Russian capital ship)...
Large size more room and larger Angle as well....

basically potentially a Russian LINK 16....

Power output however is too small to be utilized as an Anti Stealth Radar (the high Power output would defeat its purpose in avoiding ELINT or RWR in IFF mode)

Having AESA L band modules as just a datalink is overkill. Even Gefast & T upgrade for older jets gives it a datalink structure similar to that of NATO's Link 16 with using a lot of current sensors already onboard the old jets. There is indeed more to the AESA L Band modules than we know of, but as I said, they are uncooled so the power input/output wont be all that great. If it could be used for scanning, it can, just not at very long ranges of course.

Just read an article in Air International by Piotr Butowski about the Su-57 and he pretty much stated that the L band radar was to detect the presence of stealth aircraft at long range.

There are two L band antennas fitted... that operate from 300mm to 150mm in wavelength.

Use of L-band radar in air-to-air mode is the T-50’s main means of dealing with stealth targets, which may be detected (but not targeted) by radio waves longer than the X-band for which the radar cross-section’s reduction is typically optimised.

The offset deals



It's now on our side. whether we are willing to fund the necessary upgrades in our facilities. the NTP is private company meaning they're concerned about profit and may not willing to improve their facility, given the small number of flankers we have. Thus they need to be state funded. APP is pulp and paper factory, meaning they will have to invest in whole new industrial base.

"within the $1.14 billion expected deal for 11 Sukhoi jets, around $570 million will be paid for in Indonesian commodity exports such as palm oil, tea, and coffee, with around $400 million sourced through an offset program, and the remaining paid for through cash."

https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/indonesia-russia-ink-defense-protocol-amid-fighter-jet-deal/

Stealthflanker wrote:The offset deals



It's now on our side. whether we are willing to fund the necessary upgrades in our facilities. the NTP is private company meaning they're concerned about profit and may not willing to improve their facility, given the small number of flankers we have. Thus they need to be state funded.  APP is pulp and paper factory, meaning they will have to invest in whole new industrial base.

btw got the source for that picture?

Russia, Indonesia start consultations on deliveries of Be-200 amphibious aircraft

More:
http://tass.com/defense/974386

Russia, Indonesia to agree delivery contract for Su-35 fighter jets

More:
http://tass.com/defense/988697

A contract was signed to supply Indonesia with 11 Russian Su-35 fighters

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3094332.html

George1 wrote:A contract was signed to supply Indonesia with 11 Russian Su-35 fighters

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3094332.html

Good news

Details of the contract with Indonesia for the delivery of Su-35 fighters

The Indonesian newspaper Kompas reports on some details of the contract for the purchase of 11 Russian Su-35 fighters by Indonesia, which was signed on February 16, 2018 by Totok Sugiharto, head of the Public Relations Center of the Indonesian Defense Ministry.

According to the newspaper, the contract was signed February 14 in Jakarta with Rosoboronexport JSC by the head of the defense procurement center of the Ministry of Defense of Indonesia Kemhan Agus Setaji. The cost of the contract is 1.14 billion dollars, some of which is covered by counter supplies of Indonesian goods, however this part of the contract is not detailed by Indonesian sources. The agreement allegedly provides for the transfer of technology to Indonesia to repair Su-35 aircraft, "so that fighters no longer need to be transported for repairs to Russia."

Totok Sargiarto said that the contract should come into force in August 2018, and the first two Su-35 fighters should be delivered to Indonesia in August 2019. The next six units should be delivered by February 2020, and the last three cars should be delivered in July 2020.

Su-35 fighters are purchased to replace the fleet of obsolete Northrop F-5E/F Tiger II light fighters of American manufacture, which are in service with the 14th Squadron of the Indonesian Air Force at the Iswahyudi air base (Madiun, Java). To date, eight F-5E and three F-5F are nominally in the 14th squadron, however, according to the statement of the Indonesian Air Force's press chief Jamie Trisondjaya, cited by Kompas newspaper, in fact "almost two years" the 14th squadron is not has no one flying machine, since the F-5E / F fighters are declared unsuitable for flights.

Indonesia became the second foreign customer of the Su-35 fighter aircraft after China, which in November 2015 signed a contract for the delivery of 24 Su-35 aircraft (deliveries were started in December 2016, by early 2018, China supplied 14 cars). Serial production of Su-35 aircraft is carried out by Komsomolsk-on-Amur by the Yu.A. Gagarin (a branch of PJSC Company "Sukhoi").

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3097412.html

Indonesia has signed a contract for the purchase of 22 more BMP-3Fs and 21 BT-3F armored personnel carriers

On April 22, 2019 in Jakarta, the Indonesian Ministry of Defense signed a contract with the Russian Rosoboronexport JSC worth $ 175.2 million for the purchase of 22 infantry fighting vehicles BMP-3F and 21 BT-3F tracked armored personnel carriers for Indonesia's marine infantry. Of this amount, $ 108 million accounted for the purchase of 22 BMP-3Fs and $ 67.2 million for the purchase of 21 BT-3Fs. Thus, Indonesia became the launch customer for the BT-3F armored personnel carrier.


The ceremony of signing by the Ministry of Defense of Indonesia a contract with Rosoboronexport for the purchase of 22 infantry fighting vehicles BMP-3F and 21 tracked armored personnel carrier BT-3F for their marine corps. Jakarta, 04.22.2019 (c) Ministry of Defense of Indonesia

According to the press release of the Ministry of Defense of Indonesia, the purchase is financed "by foreign loans" [apparently Russian].

From the side of bmpd, we recall that the contracted 22 units of the BMP-3F will be the third batch of these machines for the Indonesian Marine Corps. Previously, the Marine Corps of Indonesia (Korps Marinir - KORMAR) has already received 54 infantry fighting vehicles BMP-3F manufactured by Kurgan Machine-Building Plant (KMZ) modified for marine in two contracts with Rosoboronexport - the first 17 vehicles of the BMP -3F and one BREM-L in 2010 under the contract of 2009, and another 37 vehicles of BMP-3F in 2013 under the contract of 2012 worth $ 114 million.

Back in November 2016, the head of the Rosoboronexport delegation at the Indo Defense 2016 defense exhibition held in Jakarta, Sergey Goreslavsky, told RIA Novosti that "the Russian and Indonesian sides are working on a project to supply the third batch of BMP-3F for the Indonesian Navy. Currently, Rosoboronexport "and representatives of the Indonesian side are holding bilateral consultations on this issue."

As for the BT-3F tracked amphibious armored personnel carrier (OCD "Bronya"), it was developed by the Special Design Bureau of Machine-Building JSC (SKBM, Kurgan) based on the BMP-3F initially to a large extent with an eye to promoting Indonesia’s marine in the first place, which in the end was a success. The decision to create a BT-3F was approved in 2010, for the first time a sample of the BT-3F was presented at the International Military-Technical Forum Army-2016.

In August 2017, the commander of KORMAR, Major General Bambang Sushwantono, and a delegation of senior officers of the Indonesian marines visited Russia specifically to familiarize themselves with the BT-3F and discuss the issue of its procurement. During the visit, Major General Bambang took part in the International Military-Technical Forum Army 2017, including a ground demonstration of the BT-3F in Kubinka held specifically for the Indonesian delegation, and also visited the SKBM and KMZ in Kurgan.

The decision to purchase the BT-3F was finally made by KORMAR based on the results of the unsuccessful experience of testing five Ukrainian armored personnel carriers BTR-4 (8x8) received in 2016, demonstrating, in particular, poor seaworthiness. As a result, the Indonesian Marine Corps refused the planned acquisition of another 50 BTR-4s.



https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3619017.html

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24880/Indonesian_Defence_Ministry__Signs_Documents__for_Su_35_Jet_Purchase__Minister#.XPWDrpC-g0M

Indonesian Defence Ministry 'Signs Documents' For Su-35 Jet Purchase: Minister

After pressures from Yankees

Indonesia drops $1.1 bln deal to purchase 11 fighter jets from Russia, reports say

Then Russia should retaliate by placing any trade sanctions on Indonesia.