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98 posters
T-90 Main Battle Tank
higurashihougi- Posts : 3403
Points : 3490
Join date : 2014-08-13
Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.
galicije83- Posts : 211
Points : 213
Join date : 2015-04-30
Age : 44
Location : Serbia
What ARENA on T-90?
Arena isnt operational in Russian army. Its just experimental APS system nothing more with 2-3 big problem and because this problem is abounded by Russians.
Shtora-1 is useless against modern ATGM and against this TOW use by rebels. She is only good against older TOW with M220 luncher, made from 1970-1974. Next modernization of TOW and his luncher M220A1 Shtora cant jammed.
Why is that?
Because IC blinker in TOW missile work on frequency 2-5.5 micrometer. An this is range of frequency that shtora cant jammed. Shtora have one option to change in his work jamming frequency but its to small chance to hit frequency of TOW missile blinker luncher and jammed him.
Thsi is major problem for SHTORA and because of this problem he is abounded on new Russian modernization of T-90 tank. Only one good part of this system is laser warning system and this system we can see on T-90MS tanks.....
Arena isnt operational in Russian army. Its just experimental APS system nothing more with 2-3 big problem and because this problem is abounded by Russians.
Shtora-1 is useless against modern ATGM and against this TOW use by rebels. She is only good against older TOW with M220 luncher, made from 1970-1974. Next modernization of TOW and his luncher M220A1 Shtora cant jammed.
Why is that?
Because IC blinker in TOW missile work on frequency 2-5.5 micrometer. An this is range of frequency that shtora cant jammed. Shtora have one option to change in his work jamming frequency but its to small chance to hit frequency of TOW missile blinker luncher and jammed him.
Thsi is major problem for SHTORA and because of this problem he is abounded on new Russian modernization of T-90 tank. Only one good part of this system is laser warning system and this system we can see on T-90MS tanks.....
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
Points : 4227
Join date : 2015-04-21
Location : Krankhaus Central.
galicije83 wrote:What ARENA on T-90?
Arena isnt operational in Russian army. Its just experimental APS system nothing more with 2-3 big problem and because this problem is abounded by Russians.
Shtora-1 is useless against modern ATGM and against this TOW use by rebels. She is only good against older TOW with M220 luncher, made from 1970-1974. Next modernization of TOW and his luncher M220A1 Shtora cant jammed.
Why is that?
Because IC blinker in TOW missile work on frequency 2-5.5 micrometer. An this is range of frequency that shtora cant jammed. Shtora have one option to change in his work jamming frequency but its to small chance to hit frequency of TOW missile blinker luncher and jammed him.
Thsi is major problem for SHTORA and because of this problem he is abounded on new Russian modernization of T-90 tank. Only one good part of this system is laser warning system and this system we can see on T-90MS tanks.....
Arena was never fielded because lack of funding and specific issues with the APS. Notably combined arms. Nothing about abandoned about it. The system is still marketed and the only current APS system in use (Trophy/Trophy 3D) and tested works on the same general principle. threat<counter-threat. Previous variants like Drozd-1/2 worked on a similar principle. Same for the SAAB and Raytheon systems.
The Shtora isn't useless against TOWs provided the frenquency is hold and DC forced out. Therefore blinding the missile. Furthermore the frequency of the isn't the only thing to target. See current ghetto APS in Syria.
Mindstorm- Posts : 1133
Points : 1298
Join date : 2011-07-20
galicije83 wrote:Shtora-1 is useless against modern ATGM and against this TOW use by rebels.
Do you say that ?
Easy question for the "sharper".....
........ observers :What difference do you notice between the T-90 hit by TOW missile in the video and those ones ?
Almost certainly the entire system (both the IR modulator and the aerosol discharger, each of which more than capable to protect from attack by TOW iterations even more advanced than those used in the video) of that particular MBT was in stand-by or put off-line, probably for power supply or false alarm problems and this instance has generated this video.
Terrorists obviously puiblish, for propagande purposes, only video with successuful or apparently successful attacks, for each video that appear on internet with similar "success" dozen others are recorded and quickly canceled because the attack fail, do not produce any tangible effect or simply because the ATGM/RPG operator is shot dead before completing the engagement sequence; doing otherwise would go strongly against theirs interests for the simple reason that would become hellish difficult to recruit ATGM/RPG operators if would become publicly evident theirs average life expectancy in the contact lines
In this particular instance one of the multitude of TOW operators present in the area where T-90 has been extensively employed - and where it proved to be one of if not the most important element in gaining the upper hand against the terrorists managed finally to achieve an hit on a T-90 .
In spite of that the TOW tandem warhead ostensibly failed to pierce the T-90's combination of ERA and passive armor and only the panicked reaction of the gunner (that had also left unwisely open the hatch) has rendered this video "releasable" ..........obviously cut abruptly after the hit and the exit of the gun operator.
. 
GarryB- Posts : 40527
Points : 41027
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Arena isnt operational in Russian army. Its just experimental APS system nothing more with 2-3 big problem and because this problem is abounded by Russians.
ARENA is fully ready for operational use... they deployed DROZD in the Russian Navy after operational testing in Afghanistan... ARENA was developed after DROZD and was perfected in the 1990s. Currently ARENA 2 is offered but AFAIK has not been adopted by the Russian military.
BTW I never said T-90 had ARENA... all I said was that ARENA has a kill switch on the hatches and does not operate when the crew hatches are open... I thought that was relevant as it might also apply to Shtora.
Shtora-1 is useless against modern ATGM and against this TOW use by rebels. She is only good against older TOW with M220 luncher, made from 1970-1974. Next modernization of TOW and his luncher M220A1 Shtora cant jammed.
How would you know?
SHTORA does not operate by mimicing the IR signal on the rear of ATGMs to confuse the launcher guidance controller... it shines enormous amounts of IR light at the ATGM launch post so it is like trying to see a candle flame in the centre of a search light beam... when the guidance component can no longer see the IR signal from the missile it no longer knows where the missile is so it cannot send course correction commands to steer the missile into the centre of view... so the missile generally flys into the ground.
Because IC blinker in TOW missile work on frequency 2-5.5 micrometer. An this is range of frequency that shtora cant jammed. Shtora have one option to change in his work jamming frequency but its to small chance to hit frequency of TOW missile blinker luncher and jammed him.
A simple change of IR frequency would solve that. In fact a modern LED bulb could be used to change over a range of frequencies to dazzle all sorts of equipment types...
The system is still marketed and the only current APS system in use (Trophy/Trophy 3D) and tested works on the same general principle. threat<counter-threat. Previous variants like Drozd-1/2 worked on a similar principle. Same for the SAAB and Raytheon systems.
AFAIK Drozd is used by the Russian Navy still, and the tubes on the new Russian vehicles seems to indicate the new Standard and Afghanistan systems are based on Drozd as well. Would not surprise me if a hybrid system that can also use ARENA 2 might be developed as an alternative.
Plus what Mindstorm says...
Regular- Posts : 3894
Points : 3868
Join date : 2013-03-10
Location : Ukrolovestan
Shtora might not jam new TOWs, but they are not the only ATGMs in use. In the end of a day it was the crew who fucked up not the tank. Leaving undamaged tank like that. Driver mechanic should be always on reverse in this position and jum backwards when laser warning is on.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
Points : 8273
Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan
Regular wrote:Shtora might not jam new TOWs, but they are not the only ATGMs in use. In the end of a day it was the crew who fucked up not the tank. Leaving undamaged tank like that. Driver mechanic should be always on reverse in this position and jum backwards when laser warning is on.
You only see the gunner escape, the driver probably stayed. The gunner probably acted on instinct. That famous 'Flight or Fight' instinctive response. Had they both abandoned the vehicle, you would see no end of Western and or Jihadi propagandist media (sometimes it's hard to differentiate from one or another) talking about how the Russian tanks are so terrible, such as the T-90 series. You'd see no end of the gloating and 'singing tomorrows', about the big bad T-90 being captured by Moderate/Freedom Fighting decapitators.......Julian Roped-Cuck would instantly ejaculate all over himself, Randy Marsh style!
zepia- Posts : 231
Points : 236
Join date : 2015-05-05
Location : Bangkok
http://sputniknews.com/military/20160228/1035486656/syria-t90-tow-missile.html#ixzz41Tz1GHEp
Look like Sputniknews staff are reading this thread. This is some paragraph from the news.
Look like Sputniknews staff are reading this thread. This is some paragraph from the news.
A more recent video showed the effect of a TOW-2A anti-tank guided missile on a T-90A tank, with the tandem warhead failing to penetrate the tank's reactive armor.
The video cuts off before the aftermath of the explosion is seen, other than the gunner running out of the tank, apparently as a result of a concussion due to an open hatch.
The video also shows that the tank does not utilize the Shtora-1 system, perhaps automatically disabled due to the open hatch, as its infrared beams apparently remain unused, compared to the beams seen in the demonstration video. Operating tanks with the hatch open is a sort of conventional wisdom for operators of older tanks, as an open hatch allows for a faster escape from the tank.
Zivo- Posts : 1487
Points : 1511
Join date : 2012-04-13
Location : U.S.A.
BTW I never said T-90 had ARENA... all I said was that ARENA has a kill switch on the hatches and does not operate when the crew hatches are open... I thought that was relevant as it might also apply to Shtora.
I remember reading somewhere the Shtora does have a hatch sensor, but it's tied to the automatic smoke grenade launchers.
But, I don't know if the dazzlers are tied into the same switch. They could be. I'm going to see if I can find some diagrams.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
Points : 8273
Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan
Zivo wrote:BTW I never said T-90 had ARENA... all I said was that ARENA has a kill switch on the hatches and does not operate when the crew hatches are open... I thought that was relevant as it might also apply to Shtora.
I remember reading somewhere the Shtora does have a hatch sensor, but it's tied to the automatic smoke grenade launchers.
But, I don't know if the dazzlers are tied into the same switch. They could be. I'm going to see if I can find some diagrams.
It would make sense to have a safety mechanism such as that, I could a imagine a man looking at the dazzlers within 2-5 meters, and going blind because of it. You'd need a welding face mask to not lose your eyesight.
Zivo- Posts : 1487
Points : 1511
Join date : 2012-04-13
Location : U.S.A.
Found this.
http://btvt.narod.ru/4/shtora1/shtora1.htm
Under the section that covers the grenade launchers, sorry about the machine translation:
It won't fire grenades if the hatches are open.
The page also includes a system diagram:
1 radiation from the laser radiator PTS
2 accurate indicators
3 rough indicators
4 control system opposition
5 the transmission unit signal
6 indicators on the remote
7 PU
8 instrument internal communication
9 lock sensor
10 fire control system
11 the drive rotation of the tower
12 chain firing
13 sight
14 projector installation
15 Spotlight
16 power supply and modulation
17 remote
From this it looks like the hatch sensor, which is number 9, isn't tied into the same panel as the IR dazzlers and their components, block 14. It seems the IR dazzlers have their own panel and power source, and can be turned on and off manually without effecting the laser warning/turret rotation/smoke launching components of shtora. After looking at this, it doesn't appear that the hatch sensor effects the dazzlers, but it's not a detailed enough diagram to be 100% certain.
IMO, the crew accidentally disabled the dazzlers.
http://btvt.narod.ru/4/shtora1/shtora1.htm
Under the section that covers the grenade launchers, sorry about the machine translation:
To exclude lesions of fired ammunition crew when the hatches of the crew members opened, SU, using the signal from the locking sensor, the locking produces ejection of the munition with the open hatch (the hatches).
It won't fire grenades if the hatches are open.
The page also includes a system diagram:
1 radiation from the laser radiator PTS
2 accurate indicators
3 rough indicators
4 control system opposition
5 the transmission unit signal
6 indicators on the remote
7 PU
8 instrument internal communication
9 lock sensor
10 fire control system
11 the drive rotation of the tower
12 chain firing
13 sight
14 projector installation
15 Spotlight
16 power supply and modulation
17 remote
From this it looks like the hatch sensor, which is number 9, isn't tied into the same panel as the IR dazzlers and their components, block 14. It seems the IR dazzlers have their own panel and power source, and can be turned on and off manually without effecting the laser warning/turret rotation/smoke launching components of shtora. After looking at this, it doesn't appear that the hatch sensor effects the dazzlers, but it's not a detailed enough diagram to be 100% certain.
IMO, the crew accidentally disabled the dazzlers.
Werewolf- Posts : 5928
Points : 6117
Join date : 2012-10-24
Crews of different weapons plattforms even Helicopters, often change settings or shut down Laser and Radar Warning Recievers due to the high amount of false alarms that can be created by the environments clutter in IR&Radar spectrum from own machines or tactics could be used to deplet tanks of their Smoke grenades, since they are automated, by emitting laser in the spectrum of Designators and LRF lazed on a tank and than quickly switching positions. False alarms are very bad for crews awarness of the battlefield and puts stress on them and confuses them of what is actually going on. Since the Shtora is controlling the turret movement when a source is lazing it, it would be quite annoying/stressful to the crew if the turret would turn around several times for false alarm. They probably shut it down due to that reason. Apache crews often have switched their RWR sensors to a different mode which suppresses clutter more effectivley but also makes it harder to pick up enemy bandwidth and might not get a notice when they are actually targeted.
ult- Posts : 837
Points : 877
Join date : 2015-02-20
I think this was the T-90 model 1992. Number 21_4. Did anyone mention it?
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
Points : 4227
Join date : 2015-04-21
Location : Krankhaus Central.
Nice spotting .
ult- Posts : 837
Points : 877
Join date : 2015-02-20
Another confirmation that T-90 is fine. From the terrorist's video. It's gone.
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
Points : 4227
Join date : 2015-04-21
Location : Krankhaus Central.
There doesn't seem to be any fluids spilled either.
Zivo- Posts : 1487
Points : 1511
Join date : 2012-04-13
Location : U.S.A.
ult wrote:Another confirmation that T-90 is fine. From the terrorist's video. It's gone.
So the tank was parked in the red square and the gun was pointing towards the white vehicles on the right of frame?
ult- Posts : 837
Points : 877
Join date : 2015-02-20
Zivo wrote:
So the tank was parked in the red square and the gun was pointing towards the white vehicles on the right of frame?
Yeah, it was on the road. Maybe a little bit further to the left.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
Points : 8273
Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan
ult wrote:Another confirmation that T-90 is fine. From the terrorist's video. It's gone.
...Now what will JihadJulian masturbate too?
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
Points : 2032
Join date : 2013-05-20
galicije83 wrote:What ARENA on T-90?
Arena isnt operational in Russian army. Its just experimental APS system nothing more with 2-3 big problem and because this problem is abounded by Russians.
Shtora-1 is useless against modern ATGM and against this TOW use by rebels. She is only good against older TOW with M220 luncher, made from 1970-1974. Next modernization of TOW and his luncher M220A1 Shtora cant jammed.
Why is that?
Because IC blinker in TOW missile work on frequency 2-5.5 micrometer. An this is range of frequency that shtora cant jammed. Shtora have one option to change in his work jamming frequency but its to small chance to hit frequency of TOW missile blinker luncher and jammed him.
Thsi is major problem for SHTORA and because of this problem he is abounded on new Russian modernization of T-90 tank. Only one good part of this system is laser warning system and this system we can see on T-90MS tanks.....
Stop the drivel. Not only you don't have any understanding of this kind of material, but you don't even know what a "frequency" is.
To say "... frequency 2-5.5 micrometer ..." is like saying "... mass 3-8 seconds ...".
Stop!
ult- Posts : 837
Points : 877
Join date : 2015-02-20
Some syrian guy just walks on T-90's barrel for no apparent reason...
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
Points : 4227
Join date : 2015-04-21
Location : Krankhaus Central.
http://www.gazeta.ru/army/2016/02/29/8101481.shtml?utm_medium=exchange
It's official BGM-71E3 cannot penetrate the front turret of T90A-1992. It was nice knowing you guys.
It's official BGM-71E3 cannot penetrate the front turret of T90A-1992. It was nice knowing you guys.
kvs- Posts : 15855
Points : 15990
Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
KoTeMoRe wrote:http://www.gazeta.ru/army/2016/02/29/8101481.shtml?utm_medium=exchange
It's official BGM-71E3 cannot penetrate the front turret of T90A-1992. It was nice knowing you guys.
So the clowns who thought that shipping the takfiris TOW systems would be like shipping "Stingers to the mujaheddin" were
uninformed idiots. If they have any functional brains in Washington, there must be a lot of sleepless nights for them these
days. All the their grand plans to take out Russia with a few NATO bases and the ABM "shield" are not going to pan out.
They really have no idea what Russia's capabilities are.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
Points : 8273
Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan
KoTeMoRe wrote:http://www.gazeta.ru/army/2016/02/29/8101481.shtml?utm_medium=exchange
It's official BGM-71E3 cannot penetrate the front turret of T90A-1992. It was nice knowing you guys.
Isn't it delicious lol? Antiquated Konkur's and Metis can penetrate Abroomz with no problem, but BGM-71E3's can't penetrate T-90 (circa 1992).
EDIT: BTW the BGM-71E3's were likely designed and tested with East Germany T-72's with higher quality Soviet export Kontact-5 ERA. If that's the case it could put in to question other 'celebrated' anti-armor developments in NATO inventory.
Regular- Posts : 3894
Points : 3868
Join date : 2013-03-10
Location : Ukrolovestan
Werewolf wrote:Crews of different weapons plattforms even Helicopters, often change settings or shut down Laser and Radar Warning Recievers due to the high amount of false alarms that can be created by the environments clutter in IR&Radar spectrum from own machines or tactics could be used to deplet tanks of their Smoke grenades, since they are automated, by emitting laser in the spectrum of Designators and LRF lazed on a tank and than quickly switching positions. False alarms are very bad for crews awarness of the battlefield and puts stress on them and confuses them of what is actually going on. Since the Shtora is controlling the turret movement when a source is lazing it, it would be quite annoying/stressful to the crew if the turret would turn around several times for false alarm. They probably shut it down due to that reason. Apache crews often have switched their RWR sensors to a different mode which suppresses clutter more effectivley but also makes it harder to pick up enemy bandwidth and might not get a notice when they are actually targeted.
I agree with above, but tank was in engagement thus he had it on and hatches should be closed too.
Also afaik Tow doesn't have to lase as it is wire guided.
What I see is misused tank. PERFECTLY good tank used by incompetent crew