Talking bollocks thread #2

GarryB wrote:

The sad part is that even if they get all those $ back, there won't be much to buy in the West, including France, with sanctions still in place.

What a western centrist thing to say... how about this... give them THEIR money back and see what they do with it... the thing of course is, that first of all the west wont give back money stolen fair and square... they have been doing that for centuries, and secondly even if they did give the money back they would demand the money could only be spent on their products and not anyone elses.

Here the list of foreign components in the ssj100

Hahahaha... it actually says a model with reduced American parts will be cheaper... so in effect these US sanctions means Iran gets a cheaper plane and US companies miss out on sales and support contracts... sounds like a win win.

pretty much not.

The EU alone can singel handed cut Iran out of air.

All iranian airlines are currently blocked from entering EU airspace because security reasons. Only excemption is Iran Air.

If Iran Air is blocked as well and if the EU installs full sanctions on Iran...Iran cant fly any airplane outside iranian airspace.

Right now, Iran only works, because the Eu doesnt follow the US sanctions. As soon the EU would install the same sanctions, Iran is dead.

Why? because tehy could not even land on foreign airports or fuel their aircrafts abroad.

GarryB wrote:Gaddafi didn't livelong enough to regret his concessions to the west to curry favour...

One of the devastating consequences of the 1991 event is that, more people became susceptible to the West's baits.

Even until now, many people still blindly believe that the USSR lost in the cold war because it was ineffective and backward, not because Gorbachyov et al. backstabbed the country and betrayed the people.

USSR had to reform economically if it was to survive.So the West would still kinda "win" even if USSR and the Warsaw Pact remained in place

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:USSR had to reform economically if it was to survive.So the West would still kinda "win" even if USSR and the Warsaw Pact remained in place

Call BS here. Countries change political systems at will. There is no political system that is sacred. Geography, population characteristics, technological development, international environment, moment in history, decides what is best every time. Systems serve the people, not vise versa.
Russia and China where the 2 main eastern powers in 1945. They lost around 3 million square kilometers of sphere of influence, mainly in eastern Europe between 1945 and 2008. West lost at least India, possibly also Brazil and vast colonial lands in Africa and Asia, more than 10 million square kilometers in total.
No conclusion yet, but despite the huge tactical errors, even between 1945 and 2008 the net result is positive for the Eurasian powers.

Hannibal Barca wrote:

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:USSR had to reform economically if it was to survive.So the West would still kinda "win" even if USSR and the Warsaw Pact remained in place

Call BS here. Countries change political systems at will. There is no political system that is sacred. Geography, population characteristics, technological development, international environment, moment in history, decides what is best every time. Systems serve the people, not vise versa.
Russia and China where the 2 main eastern powers in 1945.  They lost around 3 million square kilometers of sphere of influence, mainly in eastern Europe between 1945 and 2008. West lost at least India, possibly also Brazil and vast colonial lands in Africa and Asia, more than 10 million square kilometers in total.
No conclusion yet, but despite the huge tactical errors, even between 1945 and 2008 the net result is positive for the Eurasian powers.  

Russins live like shit then and eastern europe more and more became a poverty house. The living standards of an east german, pole or russian would have been unacceptable for a french person.

Just a hint for you, the living standard of an unemployed french person on welfare is almost 5 times the living standard of a russian worker today.


With all due respect, a country that doesnt give me the living standards that i enjoy now...deserves death.

Also calling Russia a "power" is ridicolous. I visited Russia last year. A country that in large areas cant give their people normal living conditions is no power. What i saw was ok in city centers and outside of city centers...worthless trash.

The return of the legend!   

Hannibal Barca wrote:The return of the legend!   

Glad that you accept my points, since they were simple truth.

Why you think did millions run away from the east? Why did they need to build a wall in Berlin to lock their own people in?

Because it was so great there? People escaped by the millions. I know what life i have and i know what would be an unacceptable life for me.

I simply could not live under conditions like the eastern bloc. Basicly being locked in a grey open world prison. No way to see the world. No way to buy what i want. No way to live like i want.

If France would be like the eastern bloc i would eitehr have tried to get out as quick as possible as well or if not possible, sabotage the rulling system that doesnt allow my to live like i want.

If you look at russia today you see a failed state. A state with some rich oligarchs, gargantuan corruption. A nation unable to fullfill the basic needs of its population.

I was born several years after the cold war ended but my father told me some things. France back then had relative good relations to the east as well and he traveleld there on multiple occassions.

As a french guy you were treated like a god in eastern germany. The cities were old and shabby. The people had no money to renew their houses. The air was dirty because tehy fired only brown coal. The nature was in bad shape.

The individual people were nice and kind but always afraid.

Thats why the east lost. It was a system that lived on etrror and it was unable to compete.

Hannibal Barca wrote:No conclusion yet, but despite the huge tactical errors, even between 1945 and 2008 the net result is positive for the Eurasian powers.

I think more correctly it should be called as the decentralization of world powers, at 190x only a small number of colonial empires dominate the whole world, but now we have BRICS, and many regional powers.

That is result of the destruction of colonial systems after the World Wars. Colonial system and imperialism prevent free trade, meanwhile the independence and growth of Third World Countries will facilitate free trade and market competition at international level. So free trade is not provided by the West, free trade is gained via the endless struggle of emerging powers, including the Soviet Union, the first country who had the ability to challenge Western hegemony.

higurashihougi wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:No conclusion yet, but despite the huge tactical errors, even between 1945 and 2008 the net result is positive for the Eurasian powers.

I think more correctly it should be called as the decentralization of world powers, at 190x only a small number of colonial empires dominate the whole world, but now we have BRICS, and many regional powers.

That is result of the destruction of colonial systems after the World Wars. Colonial system and imperialism prevent free trade, meanwhile the independence and growth of Third World Countries will facilitate free trade and market competition at international level. So free trade is not provided by the West, free trade is gained via the endless struggle of emerging powers, including the Soviet Union, the first country who had the ability to challenge Western hegemony.

History doesnt start with 15th century. Russia itself is a western country even more so during the cold war. That entire communism bullshit was a western european pipedream from some intellectual elitists.

Aristide wrote:History doesnt start with 15th century. Russia itself is a western country even more so during the cold war. That entire communism bullshit was a western european pipedream from some intellectual elitists.

Communism is not the product of western europe. The concept of communism appeared in all society, all countries, since the time of prehistoric period. Never heard of "đại đồng" in East Asian or "Golden Era" in Greek Mythology ?

What Karl Marx, Engels, Lenin and their colleagues struggle for, is not beehive communism, but scientific socialism. In simplest form, they want the properties and means of production return back to their rightful owners, that is working class, and the working class will be the one who take the positions in government.

When I say working class, I mean all kind of working people who contribute to the society and productivity, and when I say "working class will be the one who take the positions in government" I means highly trained working people who is able to manage the country competently, not the idiots who said "La République n'a pas besoin de savants ni de chimistes".

And Russia is not Western, Russia adopt the centralized government inherit from the Golden Horde, with distinctive Eastern traits of political system, that is the sacred value of patriotism, the respect for government, respect for order and traditions, and the orthodoxy of state figures.

And actually Russian Federation and USSR are not only Slavic people... there are Chechens, Tuvas, Kazaks, Kavkazs, Kalmyks... guess what, Stalin and Beria are Georgians. Mekhlis is a Jew. And Shoigu is a Tuvan.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Aristide wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:The return of the legend!   

Glad that you accept my points, since they were simple truth.

Why you think did millions run away from the east? Why did they need to build a wall in Berlin to lock their own people in?

Because it was so great there? People escaped by the millions. I know what life i have and i know what would be an unacceptable life for me.

I simply could not live under conditions like the eastern bloc. Basicly being locked in a grey open world prison. No way to see the world. No way to buy what i want. No way to live like i want.

If France would be like the eastern bloc i would eitehr have tried to get out as quick as possible as well or if not possible, sabotage the rulling system that doesnt allow my to live like i want.

If you look at russia today you see a failed state. A state with some rich oligarchs, gargantuan corruption. A nation unable to fullfill the basic needs of its population.

I was born several years after the cold war ended but my father told me some things. France back then had relative good relations to the east as well and he traveleld there on multiple occassions.

As a french guy you were treated like a god in eastern germany. The cities were old and shabby. The people had no money to renew their houses. The air was dirty because tehy fired only brown coal. The nature was in bad shape.

The individual people were nice and kind but always afraid.

Thats why the east lost. It was a system that lived on etrror and it was unable to compete.

France is almost in a civil war now because the politicians and the rich people are like the aristocracy during Louis XVI.


Recently I have seen something like that in Europe (I call Europe the subcontinent including Russia, not the political Union) only during the protests.in Ukraine of 5 years ago.


it's possible that this time nothing will happen but the situation is really tense and there are already problems also between poor people (e.g. first and second generation immigrants vs "original frenchmen").

In addition there are a lot of very difficult situations in France, especially in the suburbs, and the cost of living is much higher than in eastern Europe or Russia. When you check the purchasing power a poor person in France is not that much better off than in Russia or Poland (of course, if you compare with Ukraine or Georgia it's another matter, but they are in an horrible situation because their politicians sold their lands to the exploiters and the normal citizens trusted them).

Also France has still more money than the eastern countries because it continues to exploit the former African colonies and to destabilise the entire African continent and, together with UK and US is one of the main responsible of the migrants crisis (German wrong policies also, but they happened after the problem was already there). It is like celebrating the lifestyle of a big criminal or mafia boss and saying that a such kingpin and his family is can afford much more than a poor but honest family...

For the moderators: this discussions probably would fit better in the politics of the EU thread....

You clearly dont know french history when you believe those protests now are almost civil war.

It was much worse in 1968.

Its normal for our people to accept nothing. We would storm the kremlin and hang Putin on the walls there for his bad economic politics.

Russians accept too much from their government.

higurashihougi wrote:

Aristide wrote:History doesnt start with 15th century. Russia itself is a western country even more so during the cold war. That entire communism bullshit was a western european pipedream from some intellectual elitists.

Communism is not the product of western europe. The concept of communism appeared in all society, all countries, since the time of prehistoric period. Never heard of "đại đồng" in East Asian or "Golden Era" in Greek Mythology ?

What Karl Marx, Engels, Lenin and their colleagues struggle for, is not beehive communism, but scientific socialism. In simplest form, they want the properties and means of production return back to their rightful owners, that is working class, and the working class will be the one who take the positions in government.

When I say working class, I mean all kind of working people who contribute to the society and productivity, and when I say "working class will be the one who take the positions in government" I means highly trained working people who is able to manage the country competently, not the idiots who said "La République n'a pas besoin de savants ni de chimistes".

And Russia is not Western, Russia adopt the centralized government inherit from the Golden Horde, with distinctive Eastern traits of political system, that is the sacred value of patriotism, the respect for government, respect for order and traditions, and the orthodoxy of state figures.

And actually Russian Federation and USSR are not only Slavic people... there are Chechens, Tuvas, Kazaks, Kavkazs, Kalmyks... guess what, Stalin and Beria are Georgians. Mekhlis is a Jew. And Shoigu is a Tuvan.

Communism is the product of idiocy.

The sacred value of patriotism, respect for order and traditions is a deep french and western euroepan value. How else do you think we conquered the world? With chaos and disorder? Compared to any western european country, Russia is deeply corrupted and has by far not as much patriotism as for example France, UK or Italy. It also is far less centralized than France.

As for communism...communism fails and will always fail because people are individuals. I think i´m better than most others. That may be true or not but it guids my actions. I want more than others and a capitalist system allows me to do just that. In a communist system i would be deeply unhappy and i would do evrything to either escape this or fight it. Since there are millions like me, evry communist system is doomed to fail.

And Russia for hundreds of years did evrything to be part of the west. You do realize that France and Russia have a long shared history? The russian czars and aristocracy orientated themself on France.

Aristide wrote:Compared to any western european country, Russia is deeply corrupted and has by far not as much patriotism as for example France, UK or Italy.

Tell that to Napoleon, who led a 600000 troops to Russia and within months this massive army collapsed. Ah yes, Napoleon lost because of the winter, not because of the guerilla war waged by patriotic Russian partisans, not because Russian soldiers fought to the last blood drop in Borodino.

Also tell that to Hitler... the Nazi smashed your army with weeks and the clowns in Paris offered total surrender... while the USSR refused to give up and at the end of the day Russian tanks rolled over Berlin street. But again, the Nazi lost is because of the winter, not because Soviet citizens fought to the last breath at Moskva and Stalingrad, not because the partisans organized an intense guerilla war at the Nazi rear, not because patriotic workers worked days and nights to churned out millions of PPSh, tens of thousands of tanks and aircrafts.

In winter 1941 Stalin decided to stay in Moskva to face the approaching Nazi... what did the clowns in Paris do when German approached your capital ?

Aristide wrote:As for communism...communism fails and will always fail because people are individuals. I think i´m better than most others. That may be true or not but it guids my actions. I want more than others and a capitalist system allows me to do just that. In a communist system i would be deeply unhappy and i would do evrything to either escape this or fight it. Since there are millions like me, evry communist system is doomed to fail.

Capitalism have nothing to do with individualism you idiot.

Capitalism is a system where most of the mean of production is owned by bourgeois class and the povertized proletariat have not many choice outside of selling their labour for money... there is little free will or individualism for proletariat here because they have little money to materialize their will. Only the ruling bourgeois are free to impose their will on the society.

I don't want to have any opinion on your way of life but clearly you are not allowed to excercise your individualism under your favorite capitalist system.

When you people invade America, Asia and Africa, you provided them too much free will that the local people began to rise up and kicked the ass of you out. You provided too much free will to Spain and Greece that they have a military junta and facist regime of Franco. And, wait, Hitler was supported by the West to counter USSR. And so Bin Laden. You people fell so low that you even supported Pol Pot government...

You use lots of personal insults...just shows that you have no real arguments.

That said, Napoleon entered Russia with mostly foreign soldiers, Russians have nothing to lose. Russians actually live under horrrendous living standards. There was a big resistance movement in France but we did not risk our country. France stepped out of WW II with relative moderate damage.

The difference is, the russian leadership sees its people as expendable. We do not.

And yes, capitalism has evrything to do with individualism. I love to travel, party and do what i want. If France would be communist, i could not do that.

French culture stands for individualism. Freedom.

As i said i saw Russia and would not want to live there. I dont think i would be happy there.

GarryB wrote:Churchill admitted that he would say a few kind words about the devil if it was useful to the UK to do so... and that is why the EU and US are allied to headchoppers who murder and behead european female backpackers...

The difference is, the russian leadership sees its people as expendable. We do not.

Hahahahaha... of course... the french government surrendered to the Nazis to save the French people because the French government care so much about human lives.

The reality is that when push comes to shove the French and the Germans and the Brits are about two steps away from firebombing Dresden and torture and chem and bio weapons and sending messages with severed limbs...

With all due respect. If you are a swedish women and believe backpacking in muslkm shithole countries is a good idea, then you were lost before you left.

As for WW II, France came out on winner side without much damage.

Take my city for example, WW II had zero influence on it. Business as usual.

Aristide wrote:That said, Napoleon entered Russia with mostly foreign soldiers, Russians have nothing to lose. Russians actually live under horrrendous living standards.

So you mean that Napoelon treat the Russians so terribly that they had nothing to lose and rise up against him ? Probably the Napoleonic Imperialism was not anything glorious at all.

Aristide wrote:There was a big resistance movement in France but we did not risk our country. France stepped out of WW II with relative moderate damage.

Yes, you stepped out of WW2 with moderate damage... because most of the fighting was done elsewhere, by the Brits, by the Americans, and mostly, by Russians... so proud... the UK, US and Russia may think why they spent so much blood and money for such ungrateful people. Why had they not let the French speak German and let France became a province of German Republic... that would have saved them a lot of lives.

Aristide wrote:The difference is, the russian leadership sees its people as expendable. We do not.

So why didn't you save lives by quickly accept the independence of Vietnam and Algeria ?

higurashihougi wrote:

Aristide wrote:That said, Napoleon entered Russia with mostly foreign soldiers, Russians have nothing to lose. Russians actually live under horrrendous living standards.

So you mean that Napoelon treat the Russians so terribly that they had nothing to lose and rise up against him ? Probably the Napoleonic Imperialism was not anything glorious at all.

Aristide wrote:There was a big resistance movement in France but we did not risk our country. France stepped out of WW II with relative moderate damage.

Yes, you stepped out of WW2 with moderate damage... because most of the fighting was done elsewhere, by the Brits, by the Americans, and mostly, by Russians... so proud... the UK, US and Russia may think why they spent so much blood and money for such ungrateful people. Why had they not let the French speak German and let France became a province of German Republic... that would have saved them a lot of lives.

Aristide wrote:The difference is, the russian leadership sees its people as expendable. We do not.

So why didn't you save lives by quickly accept the independence of Vietnam and Algeria ?

Napoleon gave Europe a modern law system .

France never would have become a german republic or speak german. That never happens when two nations of same size merge.

WWII only happened because we demanded too much from Germany after WWI. WW I started all this shit.

Beside that, what does fighting lead too?

France went through WW II with moderate damage. My city had no damage at all.

If i think if i lived back then, what is better?

Im a young men, im very athletic, smart and do best for my community. But i have never hold a gun in my life.

When i start fighting, i destroy my own city, propably die or lose family and friends.

What have i earned when my city is in ruins and my family dead? Can i celebrate my victory by shooting myself then, because i have nothing left i hold dear?

It is ironic. French surrendered their country to the Nazi because of "saving lives", but when sending troops bullying small countries in Africa and Asia nobody cared about human lives, lives of local people and lives of French who died in unfamiliar lands, died without knowing why they killed unrelated people and why unrelated people hated them. I don't know whether French governments had any slightest thought of lives when they sent troops to massacre people, or they only thought of lives when these troops was destroyed at Điện Biên Phủ.

Meanwhile, Vladimir Putin is called Abdullahir Abu Tin by Syrian people, because Russia destroys terrorists and helps rebuilding Syria from scratch...

Poland may take a part of it, but the rest of Galicia will be dealt with like Chechnya was. Some of its restless population could be deported to the Chinese border &/ elsewhere in Siberia & the Far East, to join the descendants of Ukrainian peasants resettled there in the 1800s.