I did not know that there is a minimum requirement on number of posts to state your opinion and it was not like a personal attack nor was I disrespectful
It was a warning.
And you also need to accept that members who have been here a while will get more leeway than someone new.
Again I observed his posts and it came across to me his opinions were biased between India and Pakistan from the very first post after the incident.
So.
You will notice very quickly I have a strong bias against America and the west in general... you can try to balance that but don't expect to change it... I didn't wake up this morning and think that perhaps someone that has very high morals but acts worse than they accuse their hated enemies of acting is not someone to either listen to or respect.
America and the west have earned their position in my eyes.
Not sure if I stated anywhere US was innocent?
You called him out on his pro Pakistani bias, yet for most of the cold war your country financed their terrorist supporting activities... you might be mildly upset with him, but you should be outraged at your government funding and supporting Pakistan all these years.
Are you implying buying American equipment makes them automatically US bitch?
America flew drones around in Pakistan and killed lots of people and the Pakistani air force did nothing to stop them... bitch? Yes.
Pakistan was Americas access to Afghanistan, but they worked a deal with Russia and some former soviet states because access via that direction was safer... you stop being a bitch when you are no longer useful... some might say Pakistan has rejected the US and gone Chinese, but really America saw India as a much more lucrative bitch and has ditched Pakistan and has been trying to get its hooks into India ever since... Pakistan has turned to China.
I do not think India will abandon the Russian equipment but they will for sure diversify whether you accept it or not.
I think the more experience they get with US gear the more they will look to Russia or making things themselves...
There is evidence for it...they want benefits from US then they need to yield on some too...but it does not necessarily mean they are US or Russian bitch.
That is the only way america knows... it does not have allies... it has interests and right now 1.3 billion consumers is very interesting. Russia doesn't have bitches or it would be the one imposing sanctions and demanding Turkey get out of the F-35 deal and not buy Patriots or it can't have S-400.
I just hope we pull back a little and concentrate our resources and not underestimate our opponents.
See, now that is just stupid.
Perhaps when smarter people are in power in the US they might realise the only people making Russia and China enemies is America... your only real opponents are ISIS because they want you dead... Russia and China just want you to leave them alone.
You said before that if India wants benefits from the US then they need to yield on some things... what has the US ever yielded on?
I already stated my opinion in another thread or this one that India does not have a record of being someone's puppet or bitch as you put it.
They don't because they have not had a record of buying things from the US or UK or Germany or other countries that like to put moral strings on military purchases.
Your comment is very weird, you seem to be drawing imaginary circles and imaginary tangents to what I said. Where did the US come into play till now between India and China and what did they try to pit India against China?
Do you not read US military documents... the US military could not give a shit about 1.2 billion consumers... that is the US MIC and civilian companies, the US military is interested in strengthening India to counter China... they are doing the same in Europe with Ukraine and Georgia and the baltic countries and eastern block european countries to counter Russia... or have you had your head in the sand?
Nothing the US military would love more is Russia fighting Ukraine, or China fighting India...
No idea why you bring up Nato vs Russia between India and Pakistan?
You said India is poor and primitive and therefore largely sanction proof... but why don't they have a fully functioning state of the art IADS.
The EU is rich and powerful and does not have one either... that is why I mentioned it... IADS are not that common.
India lost their planes in offensive strikes by Pakistan each and every time and the recent event proves once more that they needed an IADS like S-400 like a while ago
??? What?
S-400 is not an IADS.
EU was biggest trading partner of Russia....get a sense of relations...
It was before the US demanded the EU put sanctions on the EU and then Russia responded by putting its own sanctions on the EU.
Now China is becoming Russias biggest trading partner...
It does not matter....they have had wars and skirmishes all along, more recent at Bhutan border. India needs to be prepared if it does not want to lose more land....the country lost land with smaller and bigger power. They better be prepared than regret...it is not like they attacked China or Pakistan.
India has had a policy of not buying everything from one country and IADS is extensive and complex... the I says it all... Integrated... it would be a nightmare trying to integrate their mish mash of systems and equipment into one unified air defence system.
Irrelevant....totally different discussion...
No it isn't... the largest and most powerful military power group on the planet that loves to provoke and move bases and troops closer to Russian borders doesn't have an IADS... so why would you expect any other individual country to have one?
Again you took it in a wrong way....I said they should have bought it a long time ago....are you seriously comparing India with US (strategy wise) and UK? UK without US is not much to brag about now...not sure how your comment is relevant either....India is facing active terror threats from a neighbor constantly. It is well known to the world what Pakistan exports...
S-300 and S-400 are not IADS. It would not matter if India bought the first S-400s produced serially, that is not the same as an IADS system.
Your comment does not make sense to me....are you saying a country size of India having fought wars in their recent past and facing active terror threats from fundamentalism does not require air defense systems?
Air defence systems and IADS and S-400 are different things... a Verba MANPAD is an air defence system, an S-400 is a heavy long range SAM.... before the Syrian air defence forces accidently shot down that Russian plane they had an enormous range of SAMs of all types but they all operated separately as individual systems... each radar operator saw what his radar detected but nothing else.
The Russian reaction to the problem was they installed a full IADS... they also added S-300 missiles but just adding the IADS on its own would dramatically improve the air defence capacity of the Syrian defence forces... an IADS is like AEGIS... it is sensors and communications and command as well as weapons all working together sharing information and acting in a coordinated way.
You keep changing your coordinate system or move my coordinates into one that you prefer...
All I said is that big powers make deals and they could be detrimental to other smaller nations and Russia or USSR before are no exceptions with other Western powers....do you disagree? If not why there is a limit to only 5 nuclear powers and 5 perm member in UNSC?
OK... let me put it this way... if Russia acted the same way the US did Georgia and the Ukraine would both be regime changed and so probably would be Iraq and Libya and Israel. Russia would increase the price of its gas to europe to only just a little bit less than other source gas supplies and the gas delivery would halt any time europe asserted its authority in a way that upset the kremlin.
There would have been no issue regarding the Crimea because it never would have been considered Ukrainian in the first place... because it never was. Kruschev had no right to gift it to the Ukraine in the first place. If he did it would only take a minute to get Gorby to gift all of Europe and Asia to Russia.
.I said very clearly India is on a path to diversify and it does not mean they will get Russia out
Traditionally they bought Soviet and French and Israeli gear... recently they have been buying American gear, but lets wait to see what their experience is yet before we decide what they are going to do... American gear is expensive... just like French gear was... but France didn't impose sanctions or tell them who they could or could not buy oil from, or to buy Patriots instead of S-400s or else.
but they have purchased C-17s, p8's and Apaches I think along with Rafale's and some other stuff....you can complain to Indian gov that they have no right to do that....you seem to have judged India as US puppet without any evidence already..
When they bought C-17s the Il-476 alternative was not in production... they already have Il-76s in service. The Russians don't have an up to date replacement for their Il-38 yet either so the P-8 didn't really have any Russian alternative, and the Apache is a mature system, while the Mi-28N of the time was new and largely untested.
India can buy what they want, but at the same time if they want to buy from America, they cannot complain if Russia sells to China or Pakistan... especially when the US supported Pakistan all those years during the cold war...
Of course now the Il-476 is in production and the Mi-28NM looks like a very interesting new aircraft... the C-17 is known for being expensive, and the Apache is a bit of a Hangar queen and also expensive to support.
there is absolutely no evidence they are planning to buy F-35's....we may not even sell it to them.
US companies have been suggesting...
It may hurt you but US really does not give a lot of weight to India...we know we do not have that much leverage on them and it is not critical for us to have it either as they are reasonably friendly to everyone and not block minded.
The US military repeatedly mentions support and operations with India intended to counter China in the region... otherwise the US military could care less.
Then explain to me why they are diversifying....there is safety in it for them and in their interest.
I suspect the French are rather better at giving bribes, but the Russian equipment actually works well in the conditions and environment and are more practical weapons. I am sure American companies are good with bribes and 'incentives'... they practise on senators and pentagon officials all the time...
Neither Russia nor India is worried in their defense relations....but you seem to be stressed out.
Doesn't both me in the slightest... I personally think Russia has a real future in developing undeveloped regions... self sufficiency technology will be as good in deep Sibera as on mars or the moon as in the sahara.
Just do not let it blind your thought process unreasonably....practicality and open-mindedness go long way....even the Russian's keep options open :-), so you can have your opinions. No one is asking for your loyality to USA....not having a bias does not mean having loyality
Yeah... keep an open mind my ass... bias is what stops you from letting a convicted child molester be the local scout groups scout leader... bias is not always a bad thing.
You certainly need US bashing thread....big powers are never liked whether it is US/USSR/China....at the moment US is villain according to you (I get it) and our politicians have not been very smart recently but it does not make sense for you to bring up tangential discussions to a point I never made...
You can forgive the bad guy when it is the US, but why don't you forgive the bad guy when it is Saddam or Gaddafi or Maduro... can't you just say all the bad press they get is owned by people in the west with an interest in removing them from power and stealing their power and wealth... doesn't that make you worse than them... they never did that to you.
There are established ways to rule that out....India seems to have shot down their own Mi-17....what is your point?
Pakistan has Mi-17s.
Turkey and Greece both fly F-16's...what is the gurantee that Russia wont sell their fighters to Pakistan unlikely but not impossible...in that case you think entire Indian airforce is just sitting ducks? This is weird conclusion...China and India both fly Russian planes, so I guess they can't fight.
F-16s don't add anything India can't get from MiG-35s, and at the same time are not operated by Pakistan. The F-16 is not really a cheap fighter and is not really compatible with Soviet and Russian and French weapons and equipment, which is what India currently have.
If they are going to buy a new American aircraft the only one that would make sense would be the F-35 because at least it is actually new.
The MiG-35 on the other hand offers compatibility with the MiG-29s they already operate including at sea, and it will expand the range of weapons they can operate with existing systems and equipment.
F-16s make no sense at all... especially brand new ones at a time when the second hand market is supposed to get rather big now that the F-35 is set to replace them in enormous numbers.
And no, I don't like the F-35 either... it is a terrible design... but you said leave emotion out of it...
Except that the reaction almost turned into war....what did they expect, Pakistan will just take it?
A law respecting country would not have allowed terrorists set up bases in their territory in the first place and should have attacked it themselves.
Indian's should have planned it better and followed through if it came to that...this softness of them resulted in losing parts of their country and a midget like pakistan use terror against them....
India vs Pakistan is like north vs south in the US civil war... it is always going to be a hard dirty affair.
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PapaDragon
Don't think MoD wants to do so, let's wait until the end of the development of the izd. 30 before making conclusions