Talking bollocks thread #2

on paper USSR had more air power than Germany but it was all taken out because offenders have that surprize edge and more modern tech and they were pretty much grounded in the first year.

Well more accurately the Germans had the experienced pilots and ground crews who had just wiped out the other airforces of europe, so when they attacked the Soviet Union they had a serious advantage in quality and tactics and experienced personnel.

The vast majority of aircraft they destroyed in the first few months were lined up on the ground, which was rather good for the Soviets, but problems were still obvious. They needed new aircraft and more trained pilots which they didn't really achieve until about 1942 with the La-5 and of course the Yak series of fighters.

You really think American's are stupid to design a plane that is a total disaster....

Stupid, no, assholes... yes.

These are not some 2 bit reporters that sensationalize like you. It is a flawed way to assume that F-35 can carry only 4 missile's and blah blah...

Yeah... polish that turd till it shines like a diamond fart...

You guys should make 10,000 of them... I double dare you...

If Russia is so superior in every category, then no need to worry about NATO or anyone else as they already can beat anyone to pulp according to you...aircraft carriers obsolete, Aegis pointless, F-22 and F35 built to fight 80's planes and so on....except reality is different as even a mig-21 can shot down modern F-16. Lot more factors to consider than your fantasy dick sizing everything....basically try not to make cheap and loose comment's as it shows your lack of respect.

You are the one being a dick... the only thing that matters is strategic nukes and each side has enough to destroy the other and despite all your fucking shiny toys worth enough money to make every person in the US a multi millionaire, but instead will make a couple of people in the US multi billionaires, there is nothing you can do about it... 11 carrier groups plus about 13 marine carrier groups, plus thousands of stealth fighters and stealth bombers and satellites and transport planes and inflight refuelling tankers and JSTARS and drones and AWACS and all your other shit, you can't show any real superiority over a third world country that is a gas station with nukes... you pathetic bastards.

But that has not stopped the chest pumping and the flexing of muscles and the sanctions and the constant abuse and ridicule... we are tired of you...

In 12 years no T-90MS in the Indian army. Zero. Zilch.Nada. Its always a deal being "finalized".

Yet no alternative has popped up for them in the mean time, so if it was signed today they would take them right?

BTW how many years did they negotiate over the Gorshkov carrier?

What if there is a a sudden insurmountable engineering problem with the 30? Until 2014 everything with the redut was just peachy. Until it wasnt. Will the Su-57 be delayed as long as the 30 is delayed?

It sounds like it is practically ready... what insurmountable engineering problem are you suggesting? That its WiFi doesn't work at supersonic speeds?

Is that something to be proud of?

How many vehicles you designed in service?

Some people here(and the MoD) are unusually enthusiastic about dropping that ball. Good thing they didnt drop the ball in 1979. Otherwise russia would have 12 Su-27s/MiG-29s and a whole bunch of MiG-23MLDM5M3UMs in 1989.

HAHAHAHAHAHA... funny you mention that because have you actually looked properly at the design and production history of those two aircraft?

There were all sorts of problems and delays... for fucks sake they had to totally redesign the Su-27 because the prototype was rubbish. There were delays with the R-73 so the first MiG-29s had R-60s instead and the only missiles the first MiG-29s could carry were two R-27R and four R-60s. Later they got R-73s, but only the MiG-29UBs that didn't have radar could carry the IR guided model of the R-27.

The early model IRST on the MiG was worse than the last model IRST on the MiG-23 and the MiG-23 accelerated better and had longer flight range... the MiG-29s radar and R-27 missiles were better, but they didn't produce them very quickly to start with, and the Su-27 was even worse... they had problems producing the avionics and radar systems for it... they had hundreds of Su-27 airframes stacked up waiting for bits to make them aircraft...

For good or bad, Russian/Soviet engines do not seem to have the same reliability or life vs Western makers (Indian's seem to complain a lot)....do they export lower quality engines than domestic?

Soviet and Russian weapons were made for war, so while they did need more regular maintenance and overhauls, the maintenance was simple and easy, and in a real war most aircraft wont need an overhaul during that period, compared with western aircraft that will likely need rather more work that just putting fuel in them and taking off.

But then the 8,000 flight hours the F-35 is supposed to achieve is more like 2,000 hours in the real world.

I spoke to an Aussie about the C-17s they bought... supposed to be really flash and capable but they were told its ability to land on short rough airstrips will invalidate the airframe guarantee for flight hours... so they can either last for x thousand hours or you can use them for rough short airstrips with reduced loads and the flight hours will be a fraction of what we told you they were.

On a serious note, the roscosmos looks to be disorganized and in disarray constantly proposing new stuff (I will take it as fantasy) and losing credibility coming from rich tradition.

Yeah, those idiots couldn't organise a ride to the ISS...

Sour Puss... Papa Dragqueen is just bitter.

Most people really don't give a shit about space or space exploration and these are the people who pay for it most of the time...

Still the sooner that the US can make its own rocket motors the sooner they will drop the Russians as a partner and Russia can get serious about their own space programme.

GarryB wrote:

Yeah, those idiots couldn't organise a ride to the ISS...  

Yeah, those idiots could not build their own passenger planes and still use windows operating system in their defense plants and factories (have seen numerous documentaries on zvezda channel) and import cutting machines, lathes, CNC's and so on.....your cheap comments are worth less than a cheap trick....atleast trick offers someone a service but your comments offer basically nothing. It does not mean they can't build their own or viceversa, it just makes sense in the interest of optimization.....one dimensional bubbleman like you is not expected to grasp it.

Sour Puss... Papa Dragqueen is just bitter.

Anyone can see roscosmos has been acting like a cheap bitch without actions....even the PM warned them recently less talk and more action but you are all knowing with your silly view of the world. Ofcourse if it is US then it is all corruption because nothing gets delivered but if it is Russia then it is all normal....I don't even remember what type of rockets they proposed so far and what got approved and what got delivered.....in your fantasy world they already went to Mars....

While I understand the impact of 90's on them, more talking just takes away their credibility...unless they want an average that reflects the number of posts you have so far and the corresponding quality of those posts. They have been a disgrace to their Soviet past, new chief comes and he talks more....I don't even remember how many got turned over now....

Most people really don't give a shit about space or space exploration and these are the people who pay for it most of the time...

Most people don't give a shit about anything other than themselves....you being one of them.

Still the sooner that the US can make its own rocket motors the sooner they will drop the Russians as a partner and Russia can get serious about their own space programme.

You think they don't understand that? For the US it just makes sense now....we (some of our geniuses in DC) built the dependency thinking exactly like you and showing no respect for opponents and expecting them to never recover. I like positive competition vs negative stepping over.

PS: On a personal note, don't take it personal....I hope you are not one of those snowflakes....as long as we don't denigrate into "yomomma" sophistication, retorts are acceptable to me.

I will just respond in summary....

Tech really does not matter when strategy is poor....always on defensive and fighting wars on your soil is not something to be proud off excessively....a skilled craftsmen can use basic tools and yet make something useful and desirable and a poorly skilled one having greatest stuff can't make shit...US pilots vs Russian pilot dog fight can go either way mostly based on the skill of the each pilot...F-35 is not in the same class vs Su-35 or even Su-30 as it will use different tactics and designed to meet different requirements. They are not going to shutdown the F-35, it is a 50 year platform just like Ford class which is 100 year platform....shutting down F-22 was a mistake by Donald duck Rimmer and Gates without giving it a chance to see further evolution...

You are correct about one thing....nukes will negate every advantage in a direct confrontation. So you assuming entire F-35 as a failure is too premature and nonsensical. It is built with a different strategical warfare and will operate in mixed fleets....most of the F-35's capabilities are still highly classified and even the partners are not getting to know everything. Whether it is hot air I do not know....none of the Russian stuff is proven in a peer to peer combat either....on paper "they will have no analogues".

To your other question....USSR couldn't win against Afghanistan either and pathetically collapsed, so what is your point? As I said wrong goals especially fighting profit wars (is there any other kind?) and half hearted and poor strategies are not going to win against anyone or anything.

F-135 is built on F-119 which accumulated over 200k hours....you are an idiot to constantly look down on competition but you are like "n" zeroes without a significant bit. So your opinions are worth that much.

PapaDragon wrote:

southpark wrote:For good or bad, Russian/Soviet engines do not seem to have the same reliability or life vs Western makers (Indian's seem to complain a lot)....do they export lower quality engines than domestic?

India routine complains about everything, loads of other countries use Russian aircraft and engines (even NATO ones) and they seem to have no issues with them

I would bet that what we are looking at here is legendary Indian maintenance culture coupled with urgent need to wash themselves of ridicule they rightfully incurred with that latest disaster with Pakistan

May be true but Pakistan does not have the numbers that India has nor the years of experience in operating Soviet or Russian ones, tbh I do not know much about it but the soviet civilian engines were 1 to 2 gen's behind in lot of parameters vs Western ones and even their documentaries acknowledged so. They obviously can build eg Mig 31 engines but may be design philosophies are different. They also look not so refined to see especially plumbing vs PW, Snecma and so on...does not necessarily mean inferior characteristics.

kvs wrote:

southpark wrote:So far its been over promise and under deliver and too much talking....space competition is heating up while they are talking.

Blah.  You would have had a point if the Russian launch market was collapsing but it is not.   There is lots of talk about these US
upstarts but they are not on the market to any degree that matters.   Heating up here means hot air from pundits and wishful thinkers.
Just to point out a good example of this BS "heating up", Musk spent a lot of time claiming that he could launch for less than $60 million
but never brings up the fact that he is subsidized by the US government.    And Russia can afford to launch Proton class rockets for
$30 million.   We'll see where the hot air will lead in the coming years.    I expect NATO sanctions and mafia style intimidation tactics
to be the real market factor and not the magic of US private companies.

That is just one angle, India, China have the potential to compete on price point in the future. Chine really did not step into it and they have a very decent launch record quantity as well as success ratio and the mission profile diversity. Also ILS which markets Russian rockets is located in US and I am sure they are cornering their profits....so you see the point? Space exploration is a prestige booster and has a hard to quantifiable value (in a positive way) to it, all this talk about different rockets has not yielded much other than for sure credibility loss. Also what do you expect for space oriented companies if not subsidies? Unless tourism becomes mass market it will continue to be subsidized one way or the other....even with that, it is not a bad thing for any country. All I am saying is talk less and get to work...even if you are working already then talk less.

Tech really does not matter when strategy is poor....

The people who make the tech don't formulate the strategy.

Plus tech is not bad if it suits the strategy... the early panzers were pretty poor in terms of the basics of tank design... ie fire power, mobility, and protection, but their layout and optics made them effective enough even against superior enemies.
The thing is that during WWII the Soviets went from poor tactics to excellent tactics and their volume of modern equipment only increased during the period of the war... WWIII probably wont last long enough for that to matter... if your strategy is bad then you might not have time to correct it.

always on defensive and fighting wars on your soil is not something to be proud off excessively....a skilled craftsmen can use basic tools and yet make something useful and desirable and a poorly skilled one having greatest stuff can't make shit..

The problem there is that the US bitches and moans about the aggressive Putin and interfering this and that... if they actually decided to do what they are constantly accused of America would shit itself and who knows what they would do?

US pilots vs Russian pilot dog fight can go either way mostly based on the skill of the each pilot...F-35 is not in the same class vs Su-35 or even Su-30 as it will use different tactics and designed to meet different requirements. They are not going to shutdown the F-35, it is a 50 year platform just like Ford class which is 100 year platform....shutting down F-22 was a mistake by Donald duck Rimmer and Gates without giving it a chance to see further evolution...

How cute... you think the results of an air to air combat between US and Russian pilots matters...

So you assuming entire F-35 as a failure is too premature and nonsensical.

Oh contrare... I think the widescale production and operational use of the F-35 is going to bankrupt most NATO users... the operational costs alone will mean real weapons wont be bought for decades to come... Norway already can't afford to keep its pilots current on the aircraft because the flight hours cost too much so their planes are grounded and they don't have enough qualified ground crew or pilots to change that...

I think they should buy 10,000 F-35s... they should be a requirement of being in NATO.

It is built with a different strategical warfare and will operate in mixed fleets.

Mixed fleets of what... it is replacing all previous 4th gen NATO fighters...

.most of the F-35's capabilities are still highly classified and even the partners are not getting to know everything.

Yeah, classified because they don't work or classified because they use Stargate technology...

Whether it is hot air I do not know....none of the Russian stuff is proven in a peer to peer combat either....on paper "they will have no analogues".

But everything they say is true.... Putin personally murdered both the Skripals, and two other Brits, and he is the richest man in the world because he steals from Russia like Bill Browder.... blah blah blah...

To your other question....USSR couldn't win against Afghanistan either and pathetically collapsed, so what is your point? As I said wrong goals especially fighting profit wars (is there any other kind?) and half hearted and poor strategies are not going to win against anyone or anything.

Why would they win... the USSR is nothing like as powerful as the 21 century last surviving superpower of the US and the UK and their coalition of the willing that went in to Afghanistan over a decade ago to turn it into a shining democratic paradise... and they didn't win either... the UK has been defeated in Afghanistan about 6 times now and always left in defeat... when are they going to learn?

F-135 is built on F-119 which accumulated over 200k hours....you are an idiot to constantly look down on competition but you are like "n" zeroes without a significant bit. So your opinions are worth that much.

Who cares what it is built on when what it carries around with it is a turd that will ultimately bankrupt America. It is a symptom that reveals the depth of the rot and disease and all the fanbois just think it is the best in the world... which is great...

When your enemy is making a mistake... don't interrupt them.

I mean the US wants Russia to put pressure on North Korea via a sanctions bill the Americans have imposed on North Korea... that same sanctions bill also imposes sanctions on Iran and Russia... so America is asking Russia to help put pressure on NK for the US based on a US law that also puts sanctions on Russia... These are the people running your country... when I first saw Southpark the cartoon, I thought things were getting bad in the US... now how bad is it when you think the people who wrote Southpark would probably do a better job of running the country than either of the potential candidates at their last election... ie trump or hillary...

May be true but Pakistan does not have the numbers that India has nor the years of experience in operating Soviet or Russian ones, tbh I do not know much about it but the soviet civilian engines were 1 to 2 gen's behind in lot of parameters vs Western ones and even their documentaries acknowledged so. They obviously can build eg Mig 31 engines but may be design philosophies are different. They also look not so refined to see especially plumbing vs PW, Snecma and so on...does not necessarily mean inferior characteristics.

Hahaha, Of course Soviet civilian engines are 1-2 generations behind western engines... the Soviet Union ended in 1991.

The engines they are putting in their new civilian aircraft seem to get better performance characteristics than western engines, so perhaps they caught up...

Funny you think tactics are more important than technology but now you think the generation of engine is critical... take your foot out of your mouth for a moment and describe how in training the generation of the MiG-21s flown by the Indians proved a problem for USAF pilots in aircraft one generation ahead (MiG-21 being a 3rd gen fighter and the F-15C being a 4th gen one)...

It does not mean they can't build their own or viceversa, it just makes sense in the interest of optimization.....one dimensional bubbleman like you is not expected to grasp it.

America can of course make rocket engines, but the rocket engines they can make are so inferior to current Russian rockets and would cost so much more they prefer to keep buying Russia rockets, yet they still don't have a human rated rocket to reliably transport human beings to the ISS... they might have one working soon, but there is no guarantee.

Yeah, those idiots could not build their own passenger planes and still use windows operating system in their defense plants and factories (have seen numerous documentaries on zvezda channel) and import cutting machines, lathes, CNC's and so on...

I don't remember them claiming to be the worlds only super power that invented and produces everything of value... and you might want to check your facts... Boeing uses a lot of Russian parts and know how for many of their aircraft... and Russia is working on its alternatives for Microshaft crap too...

Anyone can see roscosmos has been acting like a cheap bitch without actions....even the PM warned them recently less talk and more action but you are all knowing with your silly view of the world. Ofcourse if it is US then it is all corruption because nothing gets delivered but if it is Russia then it is all normal....I don't even remember what type of rockets they proposed so far and what got approved and what got delivered.....in your fantasy world they already went to Mars....

Blah blah blah, the space programme is not important and is hardly a serious focus of Russia, the military component to get GLONASS supported and upgraded and military satellites put into orbit are important... everything else is bullshit...

While I understand the impact of 90's on them, more talking just takes away their credibility...unless they want an average that reflects the number of posts you have so far and the corresponding quality of those posts. They have been a disgrace to their Soviet past, new chief comes and he talks more....I don't even remember how many got turned over now....

Who cares.... it is a space programme, it does not mean much for most Russians.

Most people don't give a shit about anything other than themselves....you being one of them.

Oh, wow... you know me so well... why should they care about space except for defence. Why does it matter that the Russians were sending up rich westerners to their Mir space station... what did it do? It didn't get any good will from the west, the so called partnership with the ISS doesn't stop the US from putting sanctions on Russian companies for doing business world wide... what really is the point of spending any money at all?

You think they don't understand that? For the US it just makes sense now....we (some of our geniuses in DC) built the dependency thinking exactly like you and showing no respect for opponents and expecting them to never recover. I like positive competition vs negative stepping over.

The sooner the US is making its own rocket motors and doing its own thing the better for Russia.

Hahahahaha... you like positive competition.... like US to EU... stop buying cheap Russian gas, you should spend more and buy our gas even though we don't produce enough to meet your demands even now let alone in 10 years time. And BTW don't buy Chinese 5G network technology because they will spy on you like we do... wait a few years while we develop the 5G technology the Chinese clearly only stole from us in the first place and let out technology help us to spy on you even more...

Yeah, America is all about freedom and democracy and fair and open competition and if you don't agree... we will bomb you until you do.

Sounds like all your eggs in one basket BS. Super-centralization is a defunct Soviet delusion and not some magic recipe for success.

So tech projects like Skolkovo are a waste of time... why didn't you say before.

Personally I think it is a very good idea, bringing together all the companies and people that are working on related things means the people can talk and share information and technology and different groups can work together...

It is like the people developing equipment for the Ratnik series of personal equipment for soldiers, it makes sense for them to cooperate and work together because their products need to work together in the end anyway.

Space exploration is a prestige booster and has a hard to quantifiable value (in a positive way) to it, all this talk about different rockets has not yielded much other than for sure credibility loss.

What credibility loss... Russia is a third world gas station with nukes remember...

Also what do you expect for space oriented companies if not subsidies? Unless tourism becomes mass market it will continue to be subsidized one way or the other....even with that, it is not a bad thing for any country.

Yeah, more of that free market shit you keep talking about...

But look at the US, the past success of the US is not based on its leadership, its based on an inertia from a previously highly successful structure, orientation, policy call it whatever you like.

Nazis.

This transcends the government and goes into corporate governance as well. The goals of the Russian companies cannot simply oriented towards the short sighted goal of simply beating the Americans in localized areas. This is what the Chinese do, but without strategy they remain coupled to America unable to exploit sovereignty from the dollar.

Their future is without the US or the US dollar in markets they have not really tapped yet... most Russian businessmen went to western universities or were taught US economic strategies and mantra in Russian universities... they need to formulate their own future and own strategies because the American ones are destructive and self serving shit. Look at what it has done to the US right now... that is no future to wish for...

I agree with most of the rest of what you are saying... post 2008 when Putin realised what a state the Russian military was in and the fact that the west was actually hostile to Russia and would not be fair and unbiased in the case of another international incident.... (ie Georgia invades South Ossetia and kills Russian peace keepers but the western view of things was that it was all Russias fault.... what would have happened if Japan had taken this as an opportunity to seize the Kurile islands... the Americans would have no doubt blamed Russia for the incident... and what could the Pacific forces have done against Japan at the time...

They ordered Mistrals from France to shore up forces in the far east, and they also started seriously working on their C4IR network... their experience in Syria was largely because of the quality of their humint in the form of special forces as well as their new use of UAVs and other recon assets like the A-50U and upgraded Tu-214R and Il-22 and other platforms to locate and identify targets... the same people here demanding moon landings and mars attempts would have demanded mass production of T-90 tanks and Su-30MKI fighters at the time and of course the Su-57 going in to service early... of course that would not end in tears either...

Of course spending on production would have taken money away from hypersonic missiles and next generation systems they were quietly spending money and resources on...

But what would I know... I am only a one dimensional bubble man that thinks the Russians have landed on Mars.

They just need to build new rockets and the western media will treat them with respect and talk about them positively all the time and be their best buddies...

@Garry B

Too long shit and same old circle jerking....did not see a single view of reality in your comments other than a feminist like rant. West accusing Russia is nothing new, it has been going on forever. They never acknowledged it as a equal power and if it causes you anxiety then take a xanax and calm down. Not sure if Russia needs a certification from West either...so they don't care either.

Putin never really trusted West and rightfully so, why would anyone aware of the history do that? He was merely buying time to prepare for a fight one day in the future and the Ukraine fiasco made the gloves come off on both sides and with all sorts of sanctions and economic war, he has nothing to lose to formulate a fully independent course. All superpowers generally lose their relevance due to internal factors than an external enemy. I never argued about it but you are "special needs" analyst and assume things out of nothing and no one ever said and pull them into your own fantasy frame of reference hanging in vacuum. You sound like someone that was never comfortable in solving an equation with more than two roots or limited yourself with things that are scalars because understanding vectors and multi dimensional concepts are too fucking hard for you. So most fields like mathematics, physics and economics do not seem to be very suitable for you...forget about social ones as they are equally if not more complex. But I will give you this, you do your moderator job pretty admirably in general and also you fill the self centered and unobjective feminist role pretty well in this forum too.

Respond beyond 2 to 3 posts to you feels like I will be unnecessarily killing my gray matter and hence this is for me on this topic.

southpark wrote:Tech really does not matter when strategy is poor....always on defensive and fighting wars on your soil is not something to be proud off excessively....a skilled craftsmen can use basic tools and yet make something useful and desirable and a poorly skilled one having greatest stuff can't make shit...US pilots vs Russian pilot dog fight can go either way mostly based on the skill of the each pilot...F-35 is not in the same class vs Su-35 or even Su-30 as it will use different tactics and designed to meet different requirements.

This is not some kind of number game, where you add up the benefits and lacks and then compare against peer opponents. The F-35 has several problems that will potentially prevent it from even being able to fly against peer opponents.

Several key requirements for the F-35 to meet have been pushed back for years. Many of which it has not reached even now, whilst the airframe is already in serial production. What happens if there is a problem with the airframe itself? It is already a very tight pack, it would require a redesign of some sorts and the entire line built up to today would become useless.

You also need to remember, that "5th generation" used to include super cruise as a requirement... until it was clear that the F-35 was not going to have it and the "requirement" was dropped.

The DOT&E report found that, and I quote:

Joint Program Office has been re-categorizing failure incidents to make the plane look more reliable than it actually is

DOT&E found that the program achieved 61 percent of planned flight hours and that the average rate of availability was as low as 28 percent for the F-35A and 33 percent for the F-35B.

This report was published in 2015. The rates for F-35B are even lower now, nearing less than 10%.

Compare that to the availability of Su-24's, Su-30's and Su-34's during the campaign in Syria. Less than 20 planes managed to continue daily sorties. At the high of the campaign the sortie amount reached ~100-150 a day. Pentagon simply did not believe this was true.

Also note, that this is not some random people on the interwebs. This is a report from the Pentagon.

southpark wrote:It is built with a different strategical warfare and will operate in mixed fleets....most of the F-35's capabilities are still highly classified and even the partners are not getting to know everything.

It's 'mixed fleet' is going to be comprised of what, exactly? 'The F-35 was developed to replace most US fighter jets with variants of one design common to all branches of the military'.

The F-22? All of it's production lines are closed and will remain closed, unless the Pentagon can churn out another 50-60 billion USD to both reopen the plans and to continue production. This means that all spare parts the US currently has is what it'll have to work with. Considering the did not manage to fly out several F-22's away from a tornado...

Even in Syria, the plane would only be able to fly one sortie every week, or two every month. This is not a plane that can be reliably used by any branch of the military. Frankly, it is a miracle that can be attributed to US engineers that it flies at all. As even a platform that has been in service since ~2005 still has critical issues, such as pilot asphyxiation.

The program will never be canceled. As the consequences of it would be too dire.

There's a reason why they're looking at other options... such as an upgraded F-15.

There are also other problems associated with the program:

• Italy has already cut orders from 131 to 90 air-frames and is currently evaluating to cut down to 24.
  
• Turkey has all but left the program in it's entirety. If they decide so, they can prevent the building of any F-35's for up to a year, as the parts it builds would have to be replaced.
  
• Netherlands cut orders from 85 to 37.
  
• Canada is still on the fence about buying it's intended order of 65 F-35's.
  
• Denmark considered to buy 48 F-35's, though cut it's order to 27.
  
• Singapore planned 100 aircraft and cut down to 12, then to 4.
  
  And so on and so on... The procurement information and news is fairly well written up pretty much anywhere and anyone can take a peek. The reason why these countries cut down on orders is because the price ended up being much higher then expected. Additionally, the first countries to place orders and buy aircraft will pay significantly more than countries that would do this further along the line. That caused many countries to buy in limited numbers, hoping someone else would take up the bill...
  
  ... that someone else was the US taxpayer with them buying the bulk of the aircraft. If it does turn out, that it has issues that upgrades cannot fix. Then it is simply a very expensive piece of metal.
  
  

nero wrote:
This is not some kind of number game, where you add up the benefits and lacks and then compare against peer opponents. The F-35 has several problems that will potentially prevent it from even being able to fly against peer opponents.

Problems will be solved, it is more operational now. You talk like US never built planes or had problems....no practical significance to your comment. Yes, the whole thing could have been handed differently but you seem to think like it is put together with plastic. As I said, Russia has nothing to fear with any of the West's stuff because they are all failures as per you...

Several key requirements for the F-35 to meet have been pushed back for years. Many of which it has not reached even now, whilst the airframe is already in serial production. What happens if there is a problem with the airframe itself? It is already a very tight pack, it would require a redesign of some sorts and the entire line built up to today would become useless.

huh...you think all engineers and mangers in LM are stupid....some of you are equally arrogant as some of our idiots? Practical compromises are always made as long as they do not impact core mission parameters....it is like I am talking to a kid and no other country makes compromises I guess(rolling eyes)....PAKFA is 5th gen but still no 5th gen engine but I guess we all can trust that the promised engine is what they say it is without waiting for evidence....no need to accumulate flying hours but the Russians are fucking unicorns...

You also need to remember, that "5th generation" used to include super cruise as a requirement... until it was clear that the F-35 was not going to have it and the "requirement" was dropped. Dude, engines can be substituted in future and upgraded...it is derived from F-119 which is super cruise capable. This fighter is to replace the F-16's as the work horse and it is ok without the super cruise

The DOT&E report found that, and I quote:

Joint Program Office has been re-categorizing failure incidents to make the plane look more reliable than it actually is

DOT&E found that the program achieved 61 percent of planned flight hours and that the average rate of availability was as low as 28 percent for the F-35A and 33 percent for the F-35B.

This report was published in 2015. The rates for F-35B are even lower now, nearing less than 10%.

Who said there are no problems, it is the idea that they wont be resolved over time is kinda stupid....it is software heavy which means it is going to have heavy bugs but just like most successful platforms if it has solid design objectives then problems will be resolved albeit at cost....neither you nor I know the answers but I am willing to wait and some of you are speaking too much without waiting for time. You want me to list the problems Russian projects has?

Compare that to the availability of Su-24's, Su-30's and Su-34's during the campaign in Syria. Less than 20 planes managed to continue daily sorties. At the high of the campaign the sortie amount reached ~100-150 a day. Pentagon simply did not believe this was true.

Talk to me when the Russian's fly as many sorties as the US does across the globe...none of those are new gen planes as they are based on established platforms....they have seen quite a few crashes themselves from helos to fighters. These machines are complex...

It's 'mixed fleet' is going to be comprised of what, exactly? 'The F-35 was developed to replace most US fighter jets with variants of one design common to all branches of the military'.

With Rafale's, Tornados, Typhoons, F-16's and so on....are or you thinking that Su-30's and 35's will fly over the CONUS to fight with us? I guess on paper Russian's have defeated every other fucking plane that was ever made by the west in your brain....F-22's were supposed to be complementing F-35's but other 4++ are equally good planes....I for one am glad to see upgrades to 15's to keep up with opponents....better missiles and engines...also talk to me when Russia gets its planes in numbers to counter the west across the globe. It is a defensive power and its force is structured like that and also there will not be a direct confrontation...so having a bit of superiority in few areas on either side means nothing practically....5th gen is more like keeping up the tech base and not lag behind each other too much. You will not see them in great numbers till mid century...

The F-22? All of it's production lines are closed and will remain closed, unless the Pentagon can churn out another 50-60 billion USD to both reopen the plans and to continue production. This means that all spare parts the US currently has is what it'll have to work with. Considering the did not manage to fly out several F-22's away from a tornado...

They might if they see a critical need....we have printing press remember?

Even in Syria, the plane would only be able to fly one sortie every week, or two every month. This is not a plane that can be reliably used by any branch of the military. Frankly, it is a miracle that can be attributed to US engineers that it flies at all. As even a platform that has been in service since ~2005 still has critical issues, such as pilot asphyxiation.

You talk as if you know all the details....use your brain when you read something....why is there a need for F-22 in syria operationally....they may wanted to test few things is my guess....you wont see their wide deployment outside the US a whole lot...first no numbers and second no need where it adds advantage.

The program will never be canceled. As the consequences of it would be too dire.

Only two reasonable outcomes....either the platform will stabilize and becomes economical overtime or it turned out to be disaster but only time will till....

There's a reason why they're looking at other options... such as an upgraded F-15.

Considering our walet is not as big as we think it is....someone is wising up even if causal factors are different.

Topic: Russian Space Program:News & Discussion # 2

You are insulting an moderator to get banned, and show in others forums that this firum is a dictatorship

dino00 wrote:Topic: Russian Space Program:News & Discussion # 2

You are insulting an moderator to get banned, and show in others forums that this firum is a dictatorship

People have commented/compared much worse than me on this forum and I reciprocated based on his view of the world in good vs bad and moral vs ethical e.t.c as we are commenting on defence related stuff and not some religion forum to bring peace to the world that none of us has a say. I already said he is a superpower on this forum and can take action if I acted out of line. I can't avoid snowflakes in real world but if this is another snowflake forum then I wont oppose if he bans me. Fyi...this is the first one that I commented in my life and I am still debating if I should have joined or not. I try not to identify myself on the net more than necessary. So you are assuming I am on some other forum...thanks for concern though

Also he wears two hats, as an active poster and a moderator. Some intersection is human but if he does his job fairly then he can't get bothered based on post responses. Anyway I said he does his moderator job admirably, I will have no problem accepting his decision either way. I will respect it.

southpark wrote:

dino00 wrote:Topic: Russian Space Program:News & Discussion # 2

You are insulting an moderator to get banned, and show in others forums that this firum is a dictatorship

People have commented/compared much worse than me on this forum and I reciprocated based on his view of the world in good vs bad and moral vs ethical e.t.c as we are commenting on defence related stuff and not some religion forum to bring peace to the world that none of us has a say. I already said he is a superpower on this forum and can take action if I acted out of line. I can't avoid snowflakes in real world but if this is another snowflake forum then I wont oppose if he bans me. Fyi...this is the first one that I commented in my life and I am still debating if I should have joined or not. I try not to identify myself on the net more than necessary. So you are assuming I am on some other forum...thanks for concern though

He won't ban...I think... but I think you are trying, end of so he won't ban me
Sorry Garry stay cool

southpark wrote:[...]

Everything you said is conjecture.

nero wrote:

southpark wrote:[...]

Everything you said is conjecture.

As opposed to real operational plans that you have from the joint chiefs or general staff?

Ofcourse it is, time will tell how close we are to our conjectures.

southpark wrote:As opposed to real operational plans that you have from the joint chiefs or general staff?

DOT&E is a report made by the Pentagon. The report and several reports afterwards is where I source all of my information from.

You state your opinion. As long as you understand this fact, it is fine. Otherwise you are simply living in la-la land.

I don't see the point in continuing this discussion. Hopefully you will start reading. Have fun.

nero wrote:

southpark wrote:As opposed to real operational plans that you have from the joint chiefs or general staff?

DOT&E is a report made by the Pentagon. The report and several reports afterwards is where I source all of my information from.

You state your opinion. As long as you understand this fact, it is fine. Otherwise you are simply living in la-la land.

I don't see the point in continuing this discussion. Hopefully you will start reading. Have fun.

I did not expect the report to put it in high flying colors when you have trillion and half fuck up and making decisions that are less than optimal like they are designing a consumer gizmo. But having worked for some of the biggest companies on the planet...I can tell you that companies like Boeing, LM and just about anyone do no start with inferior product intentionally...just like any other marketing in the US they try to sell what is not necessary and someone in DC or Pentagon probably bought into that crap and profited...I doubt if the entire platform is designed to be inferior....companies do not go for reputation loss like that and yes even the big ones as it is their cash cow. There is not much not to like about F-35 once the problems are rooted out and it becomes economical over time. Problems bring innovation and that's one possibility....

PapaDragon wrote:

dino00 wrote:Borisov said that the US space program depends on Russian RD-180 engines....

This is pure comedy gold right here.

Borisov has either been hanging out with Trampoline Man too much or has been really hitting the cristal meth hard (in light of this statement probably both)

Lol, whatever rocks his boat I guess. That is like saying entire Russian navy was dependent on Ukrainian engines...for Ukrainians air heads may be it is true certainly the Russians don't give a fuck.

And again another PAK-FA thread where talk is more about F-35

LMFS wrote:And again another PAK-FA thread where talk is more about F-35

I will accept blame for my contribution to off topic but F-35 was compared in a way that did not make sense to me as if battles are fought without tactics and strategy. This is the last post as far as that topic goes from my side. Plus kinda shitty weather and plenty of home time today to comment.

Problems will be solved, it is more operational now. You talk like US never built planes or had problems....no practical significance to your comment. Yes, the whole thing could have been handed differently but you seem to think like it is put together with plastic. As I said, Russia has nothing to fear with any of the West's stuff because they are all failures as per you...

The point you seem to enjoy ignoring is that the problems are not being fixed, problems are denied... it is a super plane and they just need to keep making them and they will win... no discussion about making a plane programme too big to fail and the consequences where it is so big you can't even criticise it or question it at all... otherwise there will be tantrums and someone is going home...

huh...you think all engineers and mangers in LM are stupid....some of you are equally arrogant as some of our idiots?

Not Stupid... criminally incompetent... clearly when the engineers are saying we might be able to do that, their managers are telling the customer they definitely can do that... it is just going to take a little more time and money...

Practical compromises are always made as long as they do not impact core mission parameters....it is like I am talking to a kid and no other country makes compromises I guess(rolling eyes).

They signed off on building the damn thing... they must have tested parts to make sure they work... that freaken oxygen system is suffocating US pilots in three different aircraft types.... F-22, F-18, and F-35... how is that not fixed yet?

Oxygen systems for air crew are basic important stuff... clearly they are trying to be too damn fancy... it is probably a software problem... are they going to blame Russian hackers?

.PAKFA is 5th gen but still no 5th gen engine but I guess we all can trust that the promised engine is what they say it is without waiting for evidence....no need to accumulate flying hours but the Russians are fucking unicorns...

Now comes the shit... with the current engine the PAK FA can supercruise... the F-35 cannot. If the PAK FA with its current engine is not 5th gen then the F-35 is not either...

Who said there are no problems, it is the idea that they wont be resolved over time is kinda stupid....it is software heavy which means it is going to have heavy bugs but just like most successful platforms if it has solid design objectives then problems will be resolved albeit at cost..

What solid design objectives?

It is a strike plane with AAMs... if it is not stealthy enough to operate near an S-400 system then it is not stealthy enough to get the job done... it might as well be an F-16, which is not stealthy but is faster, more manouverable, better armed and has better range and is MUCH MUCH cheaper to buy and MUCH MUCH cheaper to operate.

They might if they see a critical need....we have printing press remember?

Yeah, that is not going to keep working forever...

Only two reasonable outcomes....either the platform will stabilize and becomes economical overtime or it turned out to be disaster but only time will till....

Hahahahaha... you mean they will reduce the purchase price and ramp up the spares and supports contract prices to recover the money and make even more profit...

DC or Pentagon probably bought into that crap and profited...I doubt if the entire platform is designed to be inferior....companies do not go for reputation loss like that and yes even the big ones as it is their cash cow.

Hehehehe... the US didn't take Apaches in to Kosovo because they would have been massacred... US MIC does not need to worry about reputation because the US never fights fair and if it looks like they will get their asses handed to them they change the rules... like in Desert Storm... don't want Iraqi T-72s shooting up Abrams tanks with their training ammo... only fight at night after pounding them with air power and smashing up any comms they might have had...

And again another PAK-FA thread where talk is more about F-35

Will weed the garden now...

Too long shit and same old circle jerking....did not see a single view of reality in your comments other than a feminist like rant.

Yeah, I understand too much common sense in one post can be confusing and upsetting for someone used to the crap you normally ingest.

West accusing Russia is nothing new, it has been going on forever.

The fact that it does not work does not seem to matter to them... it is why Russia needs to turn away from Europe and find its own way... set its own goals find its own trade partners and develop itself and its new allies.

They never acknowledged it as a equal power and if it causes you anxiety then take a xanax and calm down.

Couldn't care less what the west says... it has no credibility in my eyes... and taking pills is an American thing too... not for me thanks.

He was merely buying time to prepare for a fight one day in the future and the Ukraine fiasco made the gloves come off on both sides and with all sorts of sanctions and economic war, he has nothing to lose to formulate a fully independent course.

The Ukraine situation was created by the US, and if that wasn't good enough they would have cooked up something else so they could do it anyway.

I think it is funny because it is the west pushing Russia away... it is not often a drug peddler refuses to sell to someone in case they become a junkie... the thing is that they thought they were already hooked and when they cut them off there was a little pain but not nearly as much as the drug dealer thought their would be and they are not desperate for another hit like they thought they would be, so they are cutting them off from Asprin now... and apart from getting all their dealer friends to black ball them they can't do much more... how scared are they?

All superpowers generally lose their relevance due to internal factors than an external enemy.

Those in power are trying to fight their way out of it by making Russia and China the enemy... most superpowers need external enemies for unity and strength and to commit awful crimes against humanity... look at what hitler did.

You sound like someone that was never comfortable in solving an equation with more than two roots

I don't see what my sex life has to do with this...

be very suitable for you...forget about social ones as they are equally if not more complex. But I will give you this, you do your moderator job pretty admirably in general and also you fill the self centered and unobjective feminist role pretty well in this forum too.

Yeah, we have a few arrogant cocky dicks here, but one more would be OK I suppose.

BTW I'd give my left penis to be a feminist... but I would want them to spell it Femenist... just to put the men back in Woman where it belongs.... HAHAHAHA.

Respond beyond 2 to 3 posts to you feels like I will be unnecessarily killing my gray matter and hence this is for me on this topic.

Well it is totally off topic so it is going to the talking bollocks section anyway...

this is the first one that I commented in my life and I am still debating if I should have joined or not. I try not to identify myself on the net more than necessary.

It is OK Donald Trump, your secret is safe with us... BTW don't fuck America up too bad... they are a pain in the arse but I don't like to see real people suffer when their elite are such assholes so openly.

Also he wears two hats, as an active poster and a moderator. Some intersection is human but if he does his job fairly then he can't get bothered based on post responses. Anyway I said he does his moderator job admirably, I will have no problem accepting his decision either way. I will respect it.

Hahhahaha... if I chose to ban you you would have no option but to accept it... when you are banned you can't post here any more... not even private messages... and I normally don't bother reading other forums so it would be tricky for you to tell me how you feel... other than diverting that carrier group going to Venezuela to New Zealand instead, or pulling a Julian Assange on me or something...

Sorry Garry stay cool

No worries mate... the french guy doens't bother me, why would this american?

This is pure comedy gold right here.

Borisov has either been hanging out with Trampoline Man too much or has been really hitting the cristal meth hard (in light of this statement probably both)

He is basically right... the US wont sanction the sale of Russian engines to the US because they need them. McCain tried to have them banned several times ages ago but was told they could not replace them so banning them was not an option... and it still is not an option.

Lol, whatever rocks his boat I guess. That is like saying entire Russian navy was dependent on Ukrainian engines...for Ukrainians air heads may be it is true certainly the Russians don't give a fuck.

No, that is the other way around... the Ukraine refusing to supply ship engines that Russia needed would be Russia refusing to sell rocket engines to the US, and that is not what he is talking about...

Anyway, even if the US did stop buying Russian engines, I am sure they could sell them to China or North Korea or Iran or India... hell there would be quite a few countries that would happily buy them if they got an offer.

We all know that the Su-57 will never be 5th gen because it as protruding rivets and circular thrust vectoring nozzles. Who needs
jet fighter functionality when hiding from 1950s radars is the raison d'etre of jets in the minds of stealth fanbois.

These fanbois need to grow a brain. Full focus on stealth requires a drone that has the shape of the one recently demonstrated
by Sukhoi. Even in that case we are dealing with a surprise "attack" scenario and circular jet thrust ports do not matter since
they do not face the radar net. No stealth aircraft can spend hours flying around willy nilly in enemy territory. It will be
fully probed by radar installations in a rather short period of time. Stealth and surprise attack are joined at the hip and thus
stealth is a transient utility feature.

BTW stealth is not a bonus. It always comes with major trade offs in other areas.

Su-57 is designed to be stealthy but not in a way that would impede its functionality. And it has an intial price tag of 1/6 of F-22.