Talking bollocks thread #2

magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys....

India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"

At first, India must prove, that their pilots could hit the hill with guided bombs….

Why bother with India? Let them develop their own fifth gen fighter, when they are so smart. Just look at Tejas. After 30+ years of development, everything inside is foreign made and technology from nineties.

magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys....

I thought they knew the answer since it was the supposed reason that  they left the FGFA program.

India bought the Rafale. And how did this end?

Austin wrote:Looks like some personal opinion of some unknown defence analyst .....In India you find dime a dozen defence analyst who can comment on every topic under the sun

India will likely purchase Su-57 when the money is available , Direct Purchase no JV  , They certainly need to replace Su-30 at some point and they will need few squadrons of heavy fighter.

For India's sake I hope planers are not as stupid as these media guys and I assume this scenario you propose is what will happen probably. Su-57 is the only 5G plane available to India and also probably the best and one of the cheapest too, with ToT and a history of trust and positive cooperation with the developer, it is simply a no brainer to go for it. But there is a sector of media and apparently defence guys too that makes too much noise and are clearly putting a spoke in India's wheels by creating all kinds of fake speculations against Russian armament. I have no doubt who is their owner, they give themselves away using the same stupid arguments of Western media. Indian society would do well calling them out for what they are.

bolshevik345 wrote:I thought they knew the answer since it was the supposed reason that they left the FGFA program.

True!

Hole wrote:India bought the Rafale. And how did this end?

Recent news from France:

French Rafale Jets Grounded After Passenger Was Accidentally Ejected From A Two-Seater Last Week Return To Flight

Austin wrote:Looks like some personal opinion of some unknown defence analyst .....In India you find dime a dozen defence analyst who can comment on every topic under the sun


India will likely purchase Su-57 when the money is available , Direct Purchase no JV  , They certainly need to replace Su-30 at some point and they will need few squadrons of heavy fighter.

Yeah (responding to "medo"), he seems to be a sympathizer for Pakistan who supported militancy towards USSR and what is with some of you that come from countries that are on their knee's throughout their history serving other powers and talking big on these forums (seriously NZ, Australia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia e.t.c....get real)? India may be a shit hole but you pale Vs its existence in history. You realize that Pakistan pretty much lost every war miserably that they fought post 1948 with India. There are only 4 sovereign or semi-sovereign countries in the world today imho....USA, Russia, China and India....rest are doing their own thing standing on their knees.

Ofcourse the Indian press excels in feeding stupidity and empty patriotism to their population. However Pakistan is a failed country and it has no future, no comparison with India on any metric. Just because the Indian fighter was shotdown does not mean anything....Russian planes were shotdown by 1000 times lesser powers recently, did Russia do anything symmetric in reaction? If sane politicians act like some of you think they should then there is no need for the existence of real strategists and we can all go back to fighting tribal wars. Sorry off topic...I just could not resist responding to this member as he has been very consistent in his pro Pakistan opinions in an immature way. You realize Russia does not give a shit about Pakistan? Russian's are smart when they are not corrupt bunch like Yeltsin regime and would deal with their partners practically and they will play along with Indians just like they did for 60 years. You have 100's of posts on this forum and most of your non-technical analysis is trash and knee jerky feel to it.

As far as Su-57 is concerned and India's participation goes, at best Indians may offer some buggy integration but beyond that they have no chops to do real and respectable contribution as of now and probably not in near future either. Russia is in it for money and not for solutions from India....not sure why some of you are getting all emotional.....Indian media is not Indian government (not that it is any better). It is not a result of talentless Indian's as you can see they contribute a lot in the countries they immigrate into....not talking about back office work but academia, patents, research, management e.t.c. The reason why the same advancement does not happen in India is because the personal integrity is not something most even consciously pay attention there anymore when doing their work (ethics are lost under centuries of foreign occupation) and neither does the system demands it from them. From top to bottom, it has evolved into a "nothing sacred to protect" country in a real sense (economic, quality and integrity sense). Only consolable thing is that it did not devolve into a mindless terrorist friendly country like Pakistan and so many other Western (yes playing their dirty politics and butchering people) or Middle Eastern countries....I am new to forum, please move it to correct topic or trash it accordingly.

As far as SU-57 is concerned, it is real that India is diversifying its defense purchases and USA is stepping in and as an American, it is a good opportunity for us to get it into that market with competitive products and hopefully not through sanctions route. This is good for India too, SU-57 is not proven yet and this verbal stupidity will continue in its full intensity in the media, and geo political circles for a while. The result will be out eventually based on the true adaptation of the product.

India is a free country and can do as it pleases, but for all their complaints about Russian military equipment, that is actually normal... even the best piece of kit occasionally fails or has problems that need to be sorted out... a situation that can be made much worse by operations in harsh environments and also not buying enough spare parts and ensuring proper support, thinking you can order parts when you need them and then finding they have to make them which takes much longer that you expected, or red tape in negotiating prices and delivery dates... despite their good relations, negotiations always take longer with India... and if there is an election in there sometimes you have to start again with a new group of negotiators... but that is democracy for you.

Russia is also a free country, but would be stupid to ignore the fact that India is an important customer and an important growing power too.

The simple fact is that Russia should not be in a huge hurry to export the Su-57... the Su-35 is selling rather well right now and is much cheaper to buy and to operate.

As regards to the comments by southpark, first of all for some of your first posts on this forum I would suggest you ease up on criticising existing members.

It is especially amusing as you state you are American and your criticism is that the member is pro Pakistan... do you not see the irony there... America basically supported Pakistan throughout the cold war against India.

But now, again, the US has switched sides... I guess the music stopped or something... and now they realise there are 1.3 billion Indians who need blue jeans and bourbon... (and they probably wont buy them from China...)

Your problem, america is looking for more women for its harem, and it don't share its bitches... India can buy all sorts of things (though it might have to ask for permission to actually use it...) but it has to stop buying stuff from Russia.

Doesn't sound like a very good deal for India... especially when over 60% of the things in Indian service are Soviet or Russian... but what would I know.

It is made rather worse when you consider the US wants to use India against China... so India can use F-35s to try to free Tibet, they would object to them being used against Pakistan.

In other words you can fight the country we don't like, but you can't fight the country we used to help fight you.

American interests in this situation is to sell stuff, and to create a country in the region friendly to the US and hostile to Russia and China.

India needs to decide if it wants to be Americas bitch or make its own decisions... and I am sure there are plenty of Indians who don't trust other Indians and think some other power should be in charge... whether it is the British or the Americans...

Well, Su-57 must be stealthy enough that no one knew it flew in Syria till Russia showed footage.

On another note, Southpark is correct in what he is saying. Pakistan is a failed state. Continues to fail too.

Indian media is heavily funded by Western States. And many politicians as well as media groups and professionals have family and ties to both US and UK. So it is of no real concern what Indian media says or does. They have also proven that Western equipment sucks and or just their own sheer incompetence.

What matters to me is what Russia gets.

GarryB wrote:
As regards to the comments by southpark, first of all for your some of your first posts on this forum I would suggest you ease up on criticising existing members.

I did not know that there is a minimum requirement on number of posts to state your opinion and it was not like a personal attack nor was I disrespectful. I am not looking to be on good side of anyone or anything.

GarryB wrote:
It is especially amusing as you state you are American and your criticism is that the member is pro Pakistan... do you not see the irony there... America basically supported Pakistan throughout the cold war against India.

Again I observed his posts and it came across to me his opinions were biased between India and Pakistan from the very first post after the incident. Not sure if I stated anywhere US was innocent? I just thought he picked evidence as it suited to his argument.

GarryB wrote:
India needs to decide if it wants to be Americas bitch or make its own decisions... and I am sure there are plenty of Indians who don't trust other Indians and think some other power should be in charge... whether it is the British or the Americans...

India never picked sides decisively and that is part of the problem too....you can't always stand on the line indecisively and she is not strong enough to be on her own either. So I do not expect India to be anyone's bitch, but they have their own wisdom like Chinese without the power of current China though. Look at Pakistan for picking sides, fanatical shithole and nothing else. Are you implying buying American equipment makes them automatically US bitch? Chinese trade with them in trillions and I guess they are a bitch too....don't take it personal. Just responding to your reply. Negotiations with India are difficult for different factors, systematic corruption, extremely divisive politics and empty egotistical bureaucrats and policy makers and just possibly unqualified technical people involved in those negotiations. I do not think India will abandon the Russian equipment but they will for sure diversify whether you accept it or not. There is evidence for it...they want benefits from US then they need to yield on some too...but it does not necessarily mean they are US or Russian bitch.

Also you may be talking to wrong Indian's, I do not have respect for people that immigrate and bad mouth the whole nation with those stupid arguments like it would have been better under British, right....be on guard for that kinda people...they will escape their duty at the first risky situation to their life or well being. I have seen that among Chinese too...bad mouthing their country.

Probably off topic...

As for Su-57, unless they are already at the cusp of 6th gen technologies, it does not make sense to export it. US did the same with F-22 and we are getting ready for the increased competition. I just hope we pull back a little and concentrate our resources and not underestimate our opponents.

southpark wrote:
As for Su-57, unless they are already at the cusp of 6th gen technologies, it does not make sense to export it. US did the same with F-22 and we are getting ready for the increased competition. I just hope we pull back a little and concentrate our resources and not underestimate our opponents.

Unless there are strategic benefits that outweigh risks. There wont be many buyers, most important is India. The only one with strategic weight and money. For India it is good chance to buy fighter+technologies. For Russia keeping India in partnership in military cooperation for next 20 years or os. When India grows more then Us by means of GDP.

If they sell, say, it this year to India. We have 1-2 years for details negotiations. 2-3 for production and 2-5 for tech transfer. So 2030 it might be localized in biggest part. This is time for 6gen in Russia.


BTW US sells F-35

magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys....

India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"

from your link:

Pay attention to the comments in the Indian media about

oh cmon this were quotes of 2 journos. Likely with grants from US NGO nothing official from Indian MoD isnt it? Of course F-35 is nto in teething problem is competently toothless so far.

Russia is responsible for what technology could offer India for funding the program. And today, India could enter into the program of the American fifth generation fighter (F-35) and not to be dependent on the Russian process improvement (su-57) – waiting for children's teething.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
If they sell, say,  it this year to India. We have 1-2 years for details negotiations. 2-3 for production and 2-5 for tech transfer. So 2030 it might be localized in biggest part.  This is time for 6gen in Russia.

BTW US sells F-35

LOL...you are right about that guaranteed paralysis but the other reason could be that Indian's haven't been very successful like China in indigenizing the complicated technologies like materials, engines, and aerodynamics e.t.c. So Russia may prefer to sell them earlier than the only other contender which is China that can afford this fighter. Based on the shitstorm about the cost in acquiring Rafale's in India, I doubt they will opt for F-35 and the tech transfer restrictions from US on 5th gen technologies. I prefer the US not sell 5th gen technologies to anyone. I think the Russian's are figuring out the market pretty decently based on their recent successes.

southpark wrote:As far as SU-57 is concerned, it is real that India is diversifying its defense purchases and USA is stepping in and as an American, it is a good opportunity for us to get it into that market with competitive products and hopefully not through sanctions route. This is good for India too, SU-57 is not proven yet and this verbal stupidity will continue in its full intensity in the media, and geo political circles for a while. The result will be out eventually based on the true adaptation of the product.

That is all fine and dandy but your government is not trying to compete fairly, it is just behaving like gangsters do. Not that anyone else would be better after such a long period of dominance BTW, but it is what it is. They are apparently going to remove Turkey from F-35 because they buy the S-400, how much do you think they would like the huge ties Indian military has with Russia? Even before becoming a major military partner they have already been trying to school them about what weapons and what oil do they need to buy, how is India going to trust them? Putting India's national security in US' hands would be a suicide pure and simple.

Back to Su-57: India didn't get really involved in the FGFA because they had no money for yet another fighter program, as simple as that. The conditions that Russia was offering them were exceptionally good, hell they spent much more money in buying 36 Rafales without ToT than what Russia was asking for granting IP rights for (IMHO) the best 5G fighter in the world... no comments on that decision not to proceed, but in any case much better for Russia than having their latest fighter produced and sold abroad by India. And they will probably end up buying a Su-57MKI in the end, so from a Russian perspective FGFA can pretty much go to hell.

Well, if you think about it in a non emotional manner then you have to question whether India needs 5th gen yet and what could they really contribute in development? So may be the government actually did not get bought into that trap to do joint research and may chose to buy the finished product when it is ready. Actually I see that as Russia's loss. India is not really losing anything by not having 5th gen yet...for god's sake they do not have a decent IADS for a country that big and surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. So someone is atleast thinking about priorities in their government....

As far as the US is concerned, I think recently our policy makers are more stick than carrot and think sanctions as the first and last chip. Too much entropy got into the system, I am hoping there will be some sort of correction and hopefully we will get some calm and collected people in the near future. If we withdraw someone will take that slot, it is just natural and occurred time and again. I prefer we withdraw where it is not serving our interests for instance Syria, Afghanistan e.t.c Russia was/is no angel either....they do not have the means to go on offense but they did get stronger. I think the bigger mistake our policy makers made is that they dismantled some of the important rules that were in our favor anyway when it comes to unwritten big power agreements....I can't rationalize and just hoping that we get some smart people take some key positions in our cabinet. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram generation contributes to the indifference also...

What product gets sold is not always based on its capabilities...iphone vs android, WRX vs S4 e.t.c

LMFS wrote:Back to Su-57: India didn't get really involved in the FGFA because they had no money for yet another fighter program, as simple as that.{}
And they will probably end up buying a Su-57MKI in the end, so from a Russian perspective FGFA can pretty much go to hell.

There is no permanent like/hate in business or politics . Cool calculation. If you'd looked at India from timeline perspective: India 's economy now is 3 in the world in PPP already (~$9T) and is growing like 7-8% p/a). It might be powerful allay and economical partner they need basically everything starting from food, crude, gas, metals till technologies.

What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.

southpark wrote:

LOL...you are right about that guaranteed paralysis but the other reason could be that (1) Indian's haven't been very successful like China in indigenizing the complicated technologies like materials, engines, and aerodynamics e.t.c. So Russia may prefer to sell them earlier than the only other contender which is China that can afford this fighter. Based on the shitstorm about the cost in acquiring Rafale's in India, I doubt they will opt for F-35 and the tech transfer restrictions from US on 5th gen technologies. (2) I prefer the US not sell 5th gen technologies to anyone. I think the Russian's are figuring out the market pretty decently based on their recent successes.

(1) not yet at least That's why IMHO Modi tries to force Made in India.

(2) As for F-35 ekhm to me it is mildly speaking not best fighter US can build. Us is also working on VI gen tech so i dotn see real danger to sell Vgen. It is not like you sell and next year they master them. Besides Vgen tech is not magic just the matter or resources invested + time. So Indian will have it sooner or later. the sooner Russians would sell Su-57 the better for them in terms of strategic partnership.

southpark wrote:Well, if you think about it in a non emotional manner then you have to question whether India needs 5th gen yet and what could they really contribute in development? So may be the government actually did not get bought into that trap to do joint research and may chose to buy the finished product when it is ready. Actually I see that as Russia's loss. India is not really losing anything by not having 5th gen yet...for god's sake they do not have a decent IADS for a country that big and surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. So someone is atleast thinking about priorities in their government....

5G is something everybody wants but maybe not everybody understands. In any case India wants it too, and these things take time, so better start soon. Contribute in development? Requirements and money, little more being honest.

Joint research was for their fighter (not for PAK-FA) for which they would have got total ToT, local production plus right to sell abroad... for 5 billion if I am not wrong. Of course Russia was interested in the money and to ensure Indian partnership for the future, but this was a super deal for India, maybe they were not ready to take advantage of it. So Russia was interested but I really don't think such crucial projects are started depending on a foreign and changing political will, that makes no sense.

I am curious why do you think is a Russian loss? No big ToT, no competitor plane from India and off-the-shelf buy instead of some capital which has proven not necessary? Don't see the issue honestly.

As far as the US is concerned, I think recently our policy makers are more stick than carrot and think sanctions as the first and last chip. Too much entropy got into the system, I am hoping there will be some sort of correction and hopefully we will get some calm and collected people in the near future.

In the current situation it would be much better for US to agree rationally with raising powers how to behave and make humanity rise from its teenage into adulthood, ie., respect for international law instead of foul play to take geopolitical spots, and do it before US sees their power base crumble and nasty things happen. With nuclear weapons we cannot play at war anymore. But ok that is too much off-topic from me!

Gunship wrote:What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.

Why do you say so?

LMFS wrote:
I am curious why do you think is a Russian loss? No big ToT, no competitor plane from India and off-the-shelf buy instead of some capital which has proven not necessary? Don't see the issue honestly.

Well, India and China are the only major countries that buy their fighters in any quantity and China is leaping forward with their own and it will be only be a matter of time if the current trajectory continues for them and they stop going for major purchases from Russia just like their Navy. India not throwing money on FGFA is a loss in the amount of $5b that you mentioned, could have funded couple of yasens for them for instance. Well, partnerships like this at that stage has no precedent except for SU30MKI but that was a platform that was already kinda matured and FGFA is just in its infancy. The odds are it would turn into a black hole with no tangible deliverable. Not worth it especially if the Indians are not ready to absorb the technologies and have no base to build on it. I think Indians made the correct decision but they do that in their style whether you like it or not and I do not understand the drama every time they make a deal to step back. As Garry said two opposing groups?

LMFS wrote:
In the current situation it would be much better for US to agree rationally with raising powers how to behave and make humanity rise from its teenage into adulthood, ie., respect for international law instead of foul play to take geopolitical spots, and do it before US sees their power base crumble and nasty things happen. With nuclear weapons we cannot play at war anymore. But ok that is too much off-topic from me!  

The one who thinks the world is run fairly by any man is naive in my opinion (you can look around in places you interact)....whoever goes to the top removes the ladder...if you know what I mean. I just hope we go for longer term strategy and place our chips accordingly. We need someone like Eisenhower.

If its offtopic move to bullocks thread...

LMFS wrote:

Gunship wrote:What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.

Why do you say so?

telling India to fuck themselves just because 2 journos (likely sponsored) expressed their opinions ? Russia agreed to export Su-57 for a reason. Anybody else can buy other then India? i dont see anybody else.

Well, if you think about it in a non emotional manner then you have to question whether India needs 5th gen yet and what could they really contribute in development?

Well if the US is going to stoke an anti China rivalry between India and China then it is going to have to properly arm its new minion for the fight and China has 5th gen fighters and Su-35s and S-400 missiles, so which 4th gen US fighters are going to make the cut?

India is not really losing anything by not having 5th gen yet...for god's sake they do not have a decent IADS for a country that big and surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. So someone is atleast thinking about priorities in their government....

Don't be so harsh... what NATO country has an IADS? ...except on their ships?

Russia was/is no angel either....they do not have the means to go on offense but they did get stronger.

So Russia is an angel if it remains weak and economically crippled?

Wonder why they don't prefer your flavour Kool Aide...

What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.

Well he is right in the sense that the FGFA programme was enormously beneficial to India... what other country gets the chance to not just buy 5th gen fighter technology, but also influence it at the design level... for less than the price of 126 Rafale fighters...

Russia was prepared to make such an offer to India... such an offer is unlikely to have been made to any other customer...

The added value would have been a bit more money, but also the problems of adapting the design to suit a foreign country with different needs and wants... I suspect the Indians would have demanded better stealth even though it would greatly increase the development and production and operational costs, while still not resulting in an invisible aircraft...

The Su-57MKI will be a separate export model... just like the Su-30MKI is different from the Su-35...

There will be less secret Russian stuff and more likely French and Israeli stuff fitted, which will take time...

Not worth it especially if the Indians are not ready to absorb the technologies and have no base to build on it. I think Indians made the correct decision but they do that in their style whether you like it or not and I do not understand the drama every time they make a deal to step back. As Garry said two opposing groups?

Their rationale is a bit illogical... I mean wanting different sources for products makes sense to make them sanction proof, but when it means choosing Rafales when you wanted M2ks but they refused to sell you what you wanted and demanded you buy the newer model even though you wanted to make the old model, and they wont let you make the new one... and it is still going to cost more than double the value of the programme specs you issued.

Russia has never been an unreliable source... sometimes there have been issues with spares and support, but if you have any brains you include that stuff in the purchase to get a good rate... heaven knows they like to negotiate... it is not something they avoid.

The one who thinks the world is run fairly by any man is naive in my opinion (you can look around in places you interact)....whoever goes to the top removes the ladder...if you know what I mean. I just hope we go for longer term strategy and place our chips accordingly. We need someone like Eisenhower.

Yeah... heard the "we are bad, but imagine of the Russians were in charge... or China, or whatever... which presumes they actually want to be in charge.

Putin has said many times that the US is a big and powerful country... we just want you to leave us alone...

Americas behaviour has not changed... Oblama was putting sanctions on countries and the bullying is not new... Trump just doesn't see the need to do it behind closed doors.

No matter who wins the next US election it will continue but if someone other than trump gets it it will just go behind closed doors.

GarryB wrote:

Well if the US is going to stoke an anti China rivalry between India and China then it is going to have to properly arm its new minion for the fight and China has 5th gen fighters and Su-35s and S-400 missiles, so which 4th gen US fighters are going to make the cut?

I already stated my opinion in another thread or this one that India does not have a record of being someone's puppet or bitch as you put it. US had/has minimum leverage on them, what can US do, put sanctions on them? They are used to hard living and pretty self sufficient in basic things....they will turn to Russia more if we do that. India will not fight China because of US goals but they have other more natural reasons that could take place....their own stupidity, Chinese aggression in lock step with Pakistan and when that happens US may step in if its allowed in. I think you are misinterpreting what I tried to say. It is clear India can not counter China economically or militarily but they have nuclear weapons if its a survival war. China is a world power now and probably will not be as rash either but who knows what China will do in war with Pakistan.

Don't be so harsh... what NATO country has an IADS?  ...except on their ships?

Again India has active unfriendly neighbors, recent incident proves it. It needs an IADS. Not sure why you are comparing it with Nato. Russia never attacked their neighbors in recent history. They went for S-400's, so my point stands. They should have purchased it way back with the kind of threats they face. Pantsirs, Buks and so on. DRDO overpromises and never delivers....I may be harsh.

Russia was/is no angel either....they do not have the means to go on offense but they did get stronger.
So Russia is an angel if it remains weak and economically crippled?

Wonder why they don't prefer your flavour Kool Aide...

Again, you are choosing to interpret in your own way....all big powers make deals at the detriment of others. Russia is no exception in that aspect. If not why do they have issues with Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO....Central Asia being their underbelly? What is that....I hope you take my point in that context.

What you say is just contradict to Russian interests to me.

Well he is right in the sense that the FGFA programme was enormously beneficial to India... what other country gets the chance to not just buy 5th gen fighter technology, but also influence it at the design level... for less than the price of 126 Rafale fighters...

Russia was prepared to make such an offer to India... such an offer is unlikely to have been made to any other customer...

The added value would have been a bit more money, but also the problems of adapting the design to suit a foreign country with different needs and wants... I suspect the Indians would have demanded better stealth even though it would greatly increase the development and production and operational costs, while still not resulting in an invisible aircraft...

In theory, Indians have no track record of undertaking a project at that level....I will concede their Arihant and the new aircraft carrier class but we will need to wait for details. They have talented people but system is very difficult and filters out the merit. India will eventually pay Russians for tech transfer and they will get it. By that time their private sector might build decent base...I would not trust their DRDO...ISRO is credible though.

Their rationale is a bit illogical... I mean wanting different sources for products makes sense to make them sanction proof, but when it means choosing Rafales when you wanted M2ks but they refused to sell you what you wanted and demanded you buy the newer model even though you wanted to make the old model, and they wont let you make the new one... and it is still going to cost more than double the value of the programme specs you issued.

Russia has never been an unreliable source... sometimes there have been issues with spares and support, but if you have any brains you include that stuff in the purchase to get a good rate... heaven knows they like to negotiate... it is not something they avoid.

Well, tbh we do not know all the details and where the Russian planes fall short in the Indian war planning. Sukhoi's may be overkill for some missions? They really like their Mirages and want to have couple of squadrons of Rafale's....they are expensive but beggers can't be choosers....when it comes to defense, best would be to be self sufficient especially for India size country. They have extensive partnership with Russia (nuke subs, aircraft, AD systems, carrier e.t.c), I am not sure why you think they should put all eggs in one basket....costs aside French equipment is decent and so is American especially F-16's.

Yeah... heard the "we are bad, but imagine of the Russians were in charge... or China, or whatever... which presumes they actually want to be in charge.

Putin has said many times that the US is a big and powerful country... we just want you to leave us alone...

Americas behaviour has not changed... Oblama was putting sanctions on countries and the bullying is not new... Trump just doesn't see the need to do it behind closed doors.

No matter who wins the next US election it will continue but if someone other than trump gets it it will just go behind closed doors.

I do not disagree, that is the reason I said we need Eisenhower. My words had a general context to it that no one vacates their top spot easily neither individuals nor countries. You seem to have anti American bias in general...I can understand issue based opinion but you may be over interpreting.

Just stating some facts:
- India's contribution was to FGFA and was only around ~$250M. FFGA was cancelled so money is sent back or put towards India's other purchases. So India had zero contribution to PAK FA
- India doesn't know shit about such equipment. This is obvious even with the development of Tejas which is an Indian airframe with American, French and Israeli parts.  Over expensive jet with no real future.
- US equipment is only good because they have experienced pilots and good planning before fighting an enemy with very little means of self defense.  Iraq was shown as huge success in early days because Iraq only had available 40K troops since rest either defected, flee or whatever. In this case, helicopters were used to take out long range AD systems as they flew low and avoided radar. After AD was gone, planes flew with little to no problems as Iraq had no means of countering them.  In reality though, they are no better than most other jets made by anyone else. Just very expensive and lots of trinkets that make it expensive but no much better.  Indians are just gullible people and do indeed like shiney new toys.  If you want to see evidence of such, just go to the country and see even their decked out trucks lol
- Doesn't matter if India gets stealth jets or not, they will still be shot down because of poor planning plus once they get them, Pakistan will obtain newer radar systems from China to be able to detect the jets, plus use other detection systems like AWACS and satellite radar. Those will be spotted as soon as they take off from the airbases and Pakistan will intercept them. I agree with Medo in that recent Indian attack was very poorly executed. And they had advanced detection and air to ground missiles from Israel.....

miketheterrible wrote:Just stating some facts:
- India's contribution was to FGFA and was only around ~$250M. FFGA was cancelled so money is sent back or put towards India's other purchases. So India had zero contribution to PAK FA
- India doesn't know shit about such equipment. This is obvious even with the development of Tejas which is an Indian airframe with American, French and Israeli parts.  Over expensive jet with no real future.

Agreed, when their private sector like TATA catches up then it may be a different story. No trust in their gov defense orgs.

- US equipment is only good because they have experienced pilots and good planning before fighting an enemy with very little means of self defense.  Iraq was shown as huge success in early days because Iraq only had available 40K troops since rest either defected, flee or whatever. In this case, helicopters were used to take out long range AD systems as they flew low and avoided radar. After AD was gone, planes flew with little to no problems as Iraq had no means of countering them.  In reality though, they are no better than most other jets made by anyone else. Just very expensive and lots of trinkets that make it expensive but no much better.  Indians are just gullible people and do indeed like shiney new toys.  If you want to see evidence of such, just go to the country and see even their decked out trucks lol

That is a pretty broad claim....American ships, subs and planes are second to nothing in the hands of capable war planners. F-16's would be a good choice vs Pakistan. You sound like US equipment is shit...no evidence to support that, ofcourse some of it is not that great. We have more offensive strategy vs Russia, so our equipment evolved differently. Pakistan uses F-16's against India's Russian planes.
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- Doesn't matter if India gets stealth jets or not, they will still be shot down because of poor planning plus once they get them, Pakistan will obtain newer radar systems from China to be able to detect the jets, plus use other detection systems like AWACS and satellite radar.  Those will be spotted as soon as they take off from the airbases and Pakistan will intercept them.  I agree with Medo in that recent Indian attack was very poorly executed. And they had advanced detection and air to ground missiles from Israel.....

It is not that simple Mike, the flaw I see in India's approach is that they really need to go out with full offense surprize attack strategy and totally overwhelm and also enhance their intelligence. Defensive strategy will not work when your bases are in so close proximity, in all the wars Pakistan attacked first and took out planes on the runway....but India overpowered them eventually and rules the skies. Pakistan will just have that initial advantage as long as India adopts defensive strategy, it is choice of strategy in my opinion
I also suspect Indian operations are leaky, Pakistan probably knows ahead of time all the war plans. I do not like half-hearted and meaningless operation objectives like India picked in the last operation....similar to US intervention in Syria....very hard to reason. When they did they should have gone all ready including navy on standby and ready to take out pakistani airfields if it escalated. They did send a message I think that India will take risks and Pakistan is evidently scared to this day...disappointing thing is that it is embarassing for India to be compared against Pakistan when it should aim for China more or less. So you are correct that india needs to introspect but it is a dysfunctional democracy...

It is clear India can not counter China economically or militarily but they have nuclear weapons if its a survival war. China is a world power now and probably will not be as rash either but who knows what China will do in war with Pakistan.

The US goal seems to be if not out right war, at least to pit India and China against each other and try to stir trouble so they can sit back and watch two potential rivals destroy each other...

Again India has active unfriendly neighbors, recent incident proves it. It needs an IADS. Not sure why you are comparing it with Nato.

NATO is actively poking the bear... and spends tens of billions every year on defence but they don't have any organised IADS... any you clearly think India is backward and primitive... sanction proof I believe... yet India should have better technology than NATO?

Pakistan and China combined really don't have a super strong air attack capacity... certainly nothing like NATO.

Or for NATO... the Bear it keeps poking...

Russia never attacked their neighbors in recent history.

Russia is heavily sanctioned by the US and the EU for their aggression everywhere...

They went for S-400's, so my point stands. They should have purchased it way back with the kind of threats they face. Pantsirs, Buks and so on. DRDO overpromises and never delivers....I may be harsh.

Why would they not buy S-400s? It is a very capable system.... why does the US and UK rely on fighter aircraft to provide air control instead of a proper IADS?

There actually are not that many countries on the planet that have proper national IADS, and even then they are not perfect.

Again, you are choosing to interpret in your own way....all big powers make deals at the detriment of others. Russia is no exception in that aspect. If not why do they have issues with Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO....Central Asia being their underbelly? What is that....I hope you take my point in that context.

I find it hilarious that your interpretation of Russian aggression is them not being happy at their neighbours joining a US led anti Russian military coalition called NATO. Look at the US reaction to a few oil deals between Russia and China with Venezuela... they have repeatedly tried to overthrow the democratically elected government like they did in the Ukraine.... but Russia is the bad guy?

You are right... this does need to be moved to the talking bollocks thread...

Well, tbh we do not know all the details and where the Russian planes fall short in the Indian war planning. Sukhoi's may be overkill for some missions?

Yeah, because that always happens... you try to buy aircraft X and are refused, but aircraft Y is offered instead but is more expensive than the biggest and most expensive aircraft in your inventory... it is like India saying they want F-16s but America demanding they buy F-35s instead but they are charging $400 million per aircraft... they could get F-22s for that...

More importantly the expensive aircraft in this case is the same generation as the Su-30MKI or Su-35 they could have for a quarter of the price... having an aircraft that is over kill is a GOOD thing.

I am not sure why you think they should put all eggs in one basket....costs aside French equipment is decent and so is American especially F-16's.

Yeah but this basket has proved reliable even when you fall off your bike... the French and American equipment in comparison is not keeping all your eggs in one basket because you have one good safe affordable Russian basket and an American option that involves juggling so if you fall off the bike again you should have some unbroken eggs because they will be in the air...

You seem to have anti American bias in general...I can understand issue based opinion but you may be over interpreting.

Of course I do, why would I not have an anti American bias... what do you think America has done to deserve total loyalty?

You violate your own stated morals and rules every day, what is there to respect?

F-16's would be a good choice vs Pakistan.

Pakistan already uses F-16s, do you want the Indian air defence forces shooting down Indian fighters by mistake?

It is not that simple Mike, the flaw I see in India's approach is that they really need to go out with full offense surprize attack strategy and totally overwhelm and also enhance their intelligence.

Except they were not planning an invasion or regime change, this was supposed to be a direct attack on the bases of the terrorists believed to have recently killed Indians paramilitary forces.

So you are correct that india needs to introspect but it is a dysfunctional democracy...

What other kind is there?