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I have no doubt, that Russia will donate some retired modernized Su-24M and some MiG-29 upgraded similar to those for Serbia. But for more of them or for new Sukhois or MiGs, Syria will not have money for some time, as they will need to rebuild their country first. For that time RuAF will be stationed in Syria. On the other hand Iran will provide new build F-5 Kowsar jets and their own air defense complexes. Don't forget, that F-5 is simple and cheap plane like MiG-21, so they could be produced quickly and for modest price. Kowsar is modernized with new iranian electronics and is multirole fighter jet and it also use iranian made weapons. It will be good replacement for old MiG-21, MiG-23 and Su-22 jets, which will be retired after war. Iran decided to start production of Kowsar jets for their air force and they will produce them for Syrian air force as well. Question is only who will pay for them. Will Iran pay for them or will someone else help to pay for them for Syria like China? China want to increase business in Iran and Syria and coulod compensate their military uninvolment with investments in rebuilding of Syrian army.
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Syrian War: News #18
medo- Posts : 4343
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starman- Posts : 762
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medo wrote:I have no doubt, that Russia will donate some retired modernized Su-24M and some MiG-29 upgraded similar to those for Serbia. But for more of them or for new Sukhois or MiGs, Syria will not have money for some time, as they will need to rebuild their country first.
I noticed Iraq has been spending a fair amount on new weapons despite needing IIRC $54 billion for reconstruction, mainly in sunni areas.
For that time RuAF will be stationed in Syria. On the other hand Iran will provide new build F-5 Kowsar jets and their own air defense complexes. Don't forget, that F-5 is simple and cheap plane like MiG-21, so they could be produced quickly and for modest price. Kowsar is modernized with new iranian electronics and is multirole fighter jet and it also use iranian made weapons. It will be good replacement for old MiG-21, MiG-23 and Su-22 jets, which will be retired after war.
I dunnoo..To have any chance against Israel, Syria needs something world class, like the T-50, or at least something like the SU-30.
Iran decided to start production of Kowsar jets for their air force and they will produce them for Syrian air force as well. Question is only who will pay for them. Will Iran pay for them or will someone else help to pay for them for Syria like China? China want to increase business in Iran and Syria and coulod compensate their military uninvolment with investments in rebuilding of Syrian army.
Is Iran really in a shape to pay for Syrian rearmament now that it's getting hit with sanctions? I hope China does help.
Isos- Posts : 11602
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I dunnoo..To have any chance against Israel, Syria needs something world class, like the T-50, or at least something like the SU-30.
Even su-57 would be useless. Syrian pilots proved to be bad and they never operated sukhoi 27 family, training will be poor and israel would destroy them as soon as they reach syrian ground.
starman- Posts : 762
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Join date : 2016-08-10
Isos wrote:
Even su-57 would be useless. Syrian pilots proved to be bad
Not necessarily. In 1973 an Israeli characterized them as "very aggressive." Pollack believed they did somewhat better than the EAF, and the worst problem was the lack of effective weapons on the MIG-21.
The results in '82 were particularly bad but the SAF suffered from ill timing because many pilots had just been purged, and the technological gap had widened with the advent of the F-15 in Israeli service. Yet even then, SAF pilots occasionally did OK, considering the odds. Tom Cooper's latest work, on arab MIG-23s, describes an action in which four of the jets were surprised by about twice as many F-15s and F-16s. Yet the Syrians, with one exception, got away.
and they never operated sukhoi 27 family, training will be poor and israel would destroy them as soon as they reach syrian ground.
Nobody expects the SAF to prevail on its own. Syria will need, besides better SAMs, allies to divert considerable Israeli strength away from it. But they should do what they can to match Israeli fighters. There almost certainly won't be another war for a decade or two--plenty of time to rectify a lot of issues.
d_taddei2- Posts : 3028
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medo wrote:I have no doubt, that Russia will donate some retired modernized Su-24M and some MiG-29 upgraded similar to those for Serbia. But for more of them or for new Sukhois or MiGs, Syria will not have money for some time, as they will need to rebuild their country first. For that time RuAF will be stationed in Syria. On the other hand Iran will provide new build F-5 Kowsar jets and their own air defense complexes. Don't forget, that F-5 is simple and cheap plane like MiG-21, so they could be produced quickly and for modest price. Kowsar is modernized with new iranian electronics and is multirole fighter jet and it also use iranian made weapons. It will be good replacement for old MiG-21, MiG-23 and Su-22 jets, which will be retired after war. Iran decided to start production of Kowsar jets for their air force and they will produce them for Syrian air force as well. Question is only who will pay for them. Will Iran pay for them or will someone else help to pay for them for Syria like China? China want to increase business in Iran and Syria and coulod compensate their military uninvolment with investments in rebuilding of Syrian army.
The Kowsar will end up just like the other aircraft and helicopter projects a handful will be produced nothing more and they are likely refurbished old F-5 frames with homegrown parts. And if by sheer luck and determination they do produce a reasonable amount most will be for Iran and a handful for syria which won't be enough to replace what they need in that class of aircraft. But Kowsar alone won't be enough and something like su-30 will be needed financed by Russian or chinese on a repayment loan. China may even sell them J-17.
starman- Posts : 762
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d_taddei2 wrote:
The Kowsar will end up just like the other aircraft and helicopter projects a handful will be produced nothing more and they are likely refurbished old F-5 frames with homegrown parts. And if by sheer luck and determination they do produce a reasonable amount most will be for Iran and a handful for syria
Yeah, at best.....I doubt Iran can afford to give away a lot of expensive stuff, especially now with renewed sanctions and economic issues.
But Kowsar alone won't be enough and something like su-30 will be needed financed by Russian or chinese on a repayment loan. China may even sell them J-17.
Probably wishful thinking, but what the foreign policy setbacks of the KSA lead to the fall of the Saudi monarchy and its replacement with a regime more favorable to Syria? It could underwrite a lot of rearmament.
ATLASCUB- Posts : 1154
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d_taddei2 wrote:ATLASCUB wrote:Might? There is no substitute for a fresh airframe and fresh engines. Of the aircraft that I listed, with the exception of the Mig 29s in Syrian stock, F-5s are more than suitable and comparable aircraft. Obviously we're taking at face value thus far what the Iranians say about this aircraft and their capacity to manufacture it. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we didn't consider it at least plausible.
I read some while back that Iran uses F-5 airframes overhauls and upgrades mostly replacing parts with homegrown parts with minor upgrades so there not new airframes there old. But there is of course the training aspects of flying an aircraft totally alien to syria. I think with Russian support syria has enough and capable air force to finish the job. And after the war syria will/should be looking at replacing it's aircraft with something like mig-29m/35 and Su-30/35 and su-34. But these will have to be on some credit loan deal from Russia as syria won't have the cash
I'm under the impression this whole event and announcement is to celebrate the ability of Iran to build the aircraft from scratch (including the capacity to build the frame, engines, and avionics)... not do what they were already capable of doing in the past, which is refurbishing the aircraft, as you have described.
d_taddei2- Posts : 3028
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ATLASCUB wrote:d_taddei2 wrote:ATLASCUB wrote:Might? There is no substitute for a fresh airframe and fresh engines. Of the aircraft that I listed, with the exception of the Mig 29s in Syrian stock, F-5s are more than suitable and comparable aircraft. Obviously we're taking at face value thus far what the Iranians say about this aircraft and their capacity to manufacture it. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we didn't consider it at least plausible.
I read some while back that Iran uses F-5 airframes overhauls and upgrades mostly replacing parts with homegrown parts with minor upgrades so there not new airframes there old. But there is of course the training aspects of flying an aircraft totally alien to syria. I think with Russian support syria has enough and capable air force to finish the job. And after the war syria will/should be looking at replacing it's aircraft with something like mig-29m/35 and Su-30/35 and su-34. But these will have to be on some credit loan deal from Russia as syria won't have the cash
I'm under the impression this whole event and announcement is to celebrate the ability of Iran to build the aircraft from scratch (including the capacity to build the frame, engines, and avionics)... not do what they were already capable of doing in the past, which is refurbishing the aircraft, as you have described.
I have read the article and didn't get that impression nor did it state such. Iran has on many occasions came out with such news in the past to which either end up as paper tigers or overhauled and lightly upgraded with a handful being produced. Iran has being using this sort tactic and news for years and I highly doubt this is anything different. Time will tell.
GarryB- Posts : 40551
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People need to keep in mind that despite these stories about Iran basically building knockoff models of US aircraft... AFAIK they never actually produced any US aircraft originally... so it is not like they took a factory that built F-5s and restarted production with a few minor changes... they have actually built factories to produce aircraft they never produced before, and are actually able to produce them... not many other countries can actually say that...
It is a bit like former Warsaw Pact states still making AT-3 Sagger missiles... if the production capacity is there and the potential to radically upgrade them is there all they really need is a state of the art model to start making, and so when they upgrade that the result will be rather useful and capable... for instance getting an AT-3 to penetrate 800mm or armour out to a range of 5km takes a lot of upgrades, but those same upgrades applied to a newer missile could make it even better... and more useful.
It is a bit like former Warsaw Pact states still making AT-3 Sagger missiles... if the production capacity is there and the potential to radically upgrade them is there all they really need is a state of the art model to start making, and so when they upgrade that the result will be rather useful and capable... for instance getting an AT-3 to penetrate 800mm or armour out to a range of 5km takes a lot of upgrades, but those same upgrades applied to a newer missile could make it even better... and more useful.
d_taddei2- Posts : 3028
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GarryB wrote:People need to keep in mind that despite these stories about Iran basically building knockoff models of US aircraft... AFAIK they never actually produced any US aircraft originally... so it is not like they took a factory that built F-5s and restarted production with a few minor changes... they have actually built factories to produce aircraft they never produced before, and are actually able to produce them... not many other countries can actually say that...
It is a bit like former Warsaw Pact states still making AT-3 Sagger missiles... if the production capacity is there and the potential to radically upgrade them is there all they really need is a state of the art model to start making, and so when they upgrade that the result will be rather useful and capable... for instance getting an AT-3 to penetrate 800mm or armour out to a range of 5km takes a lot of upgrades, but those same upgrades applied to a newer missile could make it even better... and more useful.
But they aren't exactly producing anything at a reasonable speed are they if what you say is true. Their copy of sea cobra has only resulted in a handful over many years and same with their previous aircraft so it's either down to lack of budget lack of parts or expertise or no will to actually build. Nobody can deny Iran quite often showcases a piece of equipment nothing gets either produced or produced more than a handful. This is the same for Belarus and Serbia. The sad thing is these countries normally make something half decent but nothing ever gets produced in reasonable quantities
Isos- Posts : 11602
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F-5 can't deal with mig-21, let alone f-35, sukhois, eurocanards. Money spend for nothing. They should create a civilian plane instead ... much more interesting to invest in civilian projects during sanctions than on useless "fighters", if we can call their paper made fighters "fighters".
ATLASCUB- Posts : 1154
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d_taddei2 wrote: Time will tell.
I agree. And Yes it all comes down to budget and how internal assessments change over time.
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1036740691211284480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
President Bashar al-Assad of Syria must not recklessly attack Idlib Province. The Russians and Iranians would be making a grave humanitarian mistake to take part in this potential human tragedy. Hundreds of thousands of people could be killed. Don’t let that happen!
What do you all make of it... laying the groundwork or just twitter bluff?
eehnie- Posts : 2425
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GarryB wrote:Ok, eehnie. Tell SAA to try pounding Turkish targets...
Do not forget the reason for Assad to hold power is the cargoships still floating through Bosphorus.
You hit the chest, we hold the throat...
No gas, no BRICS, but when you don't get S-400 you will get F-35s... back into the arms of the US... wonder when they will try again to murder your leader?
Cargo ships can go the long way... they just will arrive later, but the level of hostility will be reflected back to you... they will let you stay in NATO of course... you occupy a useful location, but they will never let you in the EU...
The fact is that Syria is not a country without a leader and a government, and step one for a future for Syria is to remove all terrorist elements... if the opposition to assad want to align with terrorists then they will be eliminated too, but I suspect they are not that stupid. So far however they seem happy with people who burn women alive and decapitate 14 year old boys, so please spare me the Assad is evil and is the problem bullshit.
To understand well the real Turkish position in this war it is necessary to take into account that thousands of Turkish paramilitary fighters are fighting in the areas they control. Turkish paramilitary fighters from Turkey. It is the alone way they would be able to control many entire groups of paramilitary fighters, habitually called terrorists.
As all the sources with some reputation say, the Turkic populations of Syria are very small.
https://www.ethnologue.com/country/SY/languages
ethnologue.com wrote:SyriaPrint
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COUNTRY
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Adyghe
[ady] As Suwayda’ governorate: Salkhad district; Dara’a governorate: Dar’a district. 35,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Alternate Names: Adygey, West Circassian. Classification: North Caucasian, West Caucasian, Circassian. Comments: Non-indigenous. Muslim.
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Arabic, Levantine Bedawi Spoken
[avl] As Suwayda’ and Dara’a governorates in southwest corner; Hauran region southwest, from the border to within 35 km of Damascus. 98,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 6a (Vigorous). Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Non-indigenous. Muslim, Christian.
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Arabic, Mesopotamian Spoken
[acm] Ar Raqqah and Halab governorates: Buhayrat al Asad reservoir at center; Dayr az Zawr governorate: along the Euphrates; west Hamah, central Hims, and east Idlib governorates. 68,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 6a (Vigorous). Alternate Names: Furati, Mesopotamian Gelet Arabic, North Syrian Arabic. Dialects: Euphrates Cluster. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Muslim, Christian, Jewish.
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Arabic, Najdi Spoken
[ars] Widespread; eastern Syrian desert. 1,310,000 (2015). Status: 6a (Vigorous). Alternate Names: Najdi. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic.
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Arabic, North Levantine Spoken
[apc] Al Ladhiqiyah and Tartus governorates; widespread along Mediterranean coast. 14,700,000 (2015). Total users in all countries: 24,205,200. Status: 3 (Wider communication). De facto national working language. Alternate Names: Lebanese-Syrian Arabic, Levantine Arabic, North Levantine Arabic, Syro-Lebanese Arabic. Autonym: اللهجة العربيّة السورىّة (El-lahjeẗ el-‛arabīyeẗ es-sūrīyé). Dialects: There is an urban standard dialect based on Damascus speech. Beiruti dialect well accepted. Aleppo dialect shows Mesopotamian (North Syrian) influence. A member of macrolanguage Arabic [ara]. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Druze, Christian, Jewish, Muslim.
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Arabic, North Mesopotamian Spoken
[ayp] Al Hasakah governorate: Damascus toward north border with Turkey. 300,000 (1992). Status: 6a (Vigorous). Alternate Names: Maslawi, Mesopotamian Qeltu Arabic, Moslawi, Syro-Mesopotamian Arabic. Dialects: Mardini Aramaic (Abdul-Massih, Jesrawi, Mardilli, Mardini), Euphrates Group. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Muslim, Christian.
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Arabic, Standard
[arb] Widespread. 15,900,000 in Syria (2015 SIL), all users. Status: 1 (National). Statutory national language (1973, Constitution, Article 4). Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Non-indigenous.
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Armenian, Western
[hyw] Al Ladhiqiyah governorate: Kessab and Latakia; Idlib governorate: Jisr al-Shughur. 83,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Classification: Indo-European, Armenian. Comments: Non-indigenous. Christian.
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Assyrian Neo-Aramaic
[aii] Al Hasakah governorate: Khabur river banks, Turkey border, over 30 villages; some in Al Hasakah city. 167,000 (2015). Ethnic population: 700,000. Status: 6b (Threatened). Alternate Names: Assyrian, Lishana Aturaya, Neo-Syriac, Suret, Sureth, Suryaya Swadaya. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, Aramaic, Eastern, Central, Northeastern. Comments: Non-indigenous.
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Azerbaijani, South
[azb] Hamah and Hims governorates: isolated central enclaves in both. 44,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Alternate Names: Azeri, Turkmen, Turkomen. Classification: Turkic, Southern, Azerbaijani. Comments: Non-indigenous. Not written in Syria. Muslim.
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Domari
[rmt] Ar Raqqah governorate: scattered nomadic groups; north, western rural areas. Ethnic population: 37,000 (2005). Status: 6b (Threatened). Alternate Names: Barake, Dom, Gypsy, Kurbat, Middle Eastern Romani, Nawar, Tsigene. Dialects: Nawar (Nawari), Kurbati (Ghorbati), Beirut, Nablos, Barake. Classification: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Intermediate Divisions, Western, Dom. Comments: Non-indigenous. Arabic influence. Muslim.
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Kabardian
[kbd] Dimashq governorate; Damascus, Aleppo, possibly other cities. 39,000 (2005 Circassian Association). Status: 6b (Threatened). Classification: North Caucasian, West Caucasian, Circassian. Comments: Non-indigenous. Muslim.
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Kurdish, Northern
[kmr] Al Hasakah governorate: Al Hasakah city northwest border; Halab governorate: north of Euphrates reservoir; Ar Raqqah governorate: area surrounding capital. 1,480,000 (2015). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Alternate Names: Kurdi, Kurmancî, Kurmanji. Classification: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western, Northwestern, Kurdish. Comments: Muslim, Yezidi.
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Lomavren
[rmi] Al Hasakah governorate. Status: 6b (Threatened). Alternate Names: Armenian Bosha, Arnebuab Bisa, Bosa, Bosha. Classification: Mixed language, Armenian-Romani. Comments: Non-indigenous.
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Mlahsö
[lhs] Al Hasakah governorate: Qamishli town. No known L1 speakers. The last speaker died in 1998. Status: 10 (Extinct). Alternate Names: Suryoyo. Dialects: None known. Reportedly similar to Turoyo [tru]. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, Aramaic, Eastern, Central, Northwestern. Comments: A different language from Turoyo [tru], also called Suryoyo.
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Ossetic
[oss] Dara’a province. 69,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 5 (Developing). Dialects: Iron, Digor. Classification: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Eastern, Northeastern. Comments: Non-indigenous. Muslim.
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Turkmen
[tuk] Scattered. 111,000 (2015). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Classification: Turkic, Southern, Turkmenian. Comments: Non-indigenous. Turkmen in Syria displays heavy Turkish [tur] and Arabic influences lexically with some Azeri features.
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Turoyo
[tru] Al Hasakah governorate: far northeast corner, Tigris river near Cizre. 32,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Ethnic population: 20,000 (1994). Status: 7 (Shifting). Alternate Names: Surayt, Suryoyo, Syryoyo, Turani. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, Aramaic, Eastern, Central, Northwestern. Comments: Religious capital is Damascus; formerly at Tur ’Abdin, Turkey. Christian.
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Western Neo-Aramaic
[amw] Rif Dimashq governorate: Al-Qutayfah district, Bakh’a, Jubb ’Adin, and Ma’lula villages; Qalamoun mountains, 50 km north of Damascus. 24,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 7 (Shifting). Alternate Names: Loghtha Siryanooytha, Maaloula, Maalula, Neo-Western Aramaic, Siryoon. Dialects: Maaloula (Ma’lu:la, Ma’lula, Maalula), Bakh’a (Bax’a), Jub-’adin (Jubb ’Adi:n). Little dialect variation. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, Aramaic, Western. Comments: Christian.
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The Turks have been trying to dress their Turkish paramilitary forces of "Syrian Turkmens" but only low informed people can be fooled. Most of these paramilitary fighters are in reality Turks from Turkey. And are islamists of the ideological basis of Erdogan. This is why Erdogan is very reluctant to abandon them, or to order them to retire again to Turkey. Their current defeat would be then evident in Turkey.
As consequence of the real Turkish presence in Syria, when Turks talk about Syria "to try pounding Turkish targets..." they are not talking only about the regular troops in the few control points. They are including also the Turkish (not Turkmen) paramilitary forces. And when someone else say the Turks must retire from Syria, the Turks understand also their paramilitary forces must be retired from Syria.
And this is just what Syria, Russia and Iran are asking to Turkey. The leadership of these countries is not between the low informed people that can be fooled. Many people has been dreaming with Turkey as ally of Russia, but the paramilitary behaviour of Turkey has been always totally hostile to Syria, Russia and Iran. And the three countries know it.
We will see if Turkey agrees to retire their military and paramilitary forces. If not the loses of Turkey will be big, specially between their paramilitary forces, but also between their military forces if they want to jump.
It is not rare to see Turkey having very high concept of themselves. It is not rare to see Turkey feeling like Israel, the friend that all the world want to have. They are fairly wrong, in fact, they have not friends, and if they assume not the reality they will suffer the consequences. The reality is that Turkey can retire from Syria without more military and paramilitary loses, or they can retire of Syria after a more severe defeat.
Turkey attacked before a Russian Su-24 and likely a Russian ship near the Bosphorus. Turkey can bet the next time the answer will be stronger. Erdogan need to remember that Putin once made fall the chair under him.
d_taddei2- Posts : 3028
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Isos wrote:F-5 can't deal with mig-21, let alone f-35, sukhois, eurocanards. Money spend for nothing. They should create a civilian plane instead ... much more interesting to invest in civilian projects during sanctions than on useless "fighters", if we can call their paper made fighters "fighters".
Firstly I don't see the Kowsar a bad thing if it's replacing old tired F-5 the Kowsar is a light multirole fighter but more useful as ground attack for conflicts like syria than a serious interceptor. And having light fighters isn't a problem hence I thought the su-22 upgrade was good making use of what you and making better my gripe was they were wasting money because it's likely only going to be either a one off or a handful produced unless there going to produce 24+ aircraft no point in it.
If there intentions aren't serious yes your right producing civilian aircraft would be better or development of another area of the military.. Iranians are not stupid but with sanctions seem to struggle to produce a good aircraft maybe they should funnel money into another military project that they can excel at or at least save the wasted money for when they have the chance to buy foreign aircraft.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Kowsar is well modernized F-5 E/F and they are new build planes. More interesting is radar in Kowsar. Some time ago I read, that Iran claim, they are developing a new radar for their F-5 clones based on Phazotron N019 radar with range of 80 km. N019 is from MiG-29 and is too big for F-5 and old technology. But Phazotron also develop radar Kopyo-M for export, which is of more proper size for F-5 and is multirole radar with more modern antenna and with very similar capabilities to the iranian one. Kopyo-M couls also use R-77 missiles, which are equivalent of AIM-120 AMRAAM. Iran also develop their own data link to integrate jet in data network. Kowsar equipped with radar similar to Kopyo-M, armed with R-77 missiles and integrated in IADS through data link network is still dangerous oponent.
d_taddei2- Posts : 3028
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medo wrote:Kowsar is well modernized F-5 E/F and they are new build planes. More interesting is radar in Kowsar. Some time ago I read, that Iran claim, they are developing a new radar for their F-5 clones based on Phazotron N019 radar with range of 80 km. N019 is from MiG-29 and is too big for F-5 and old technology. But Phazotron also develop radar Kopyo-M for export, which is of more proper size for F-5 and is multirole radar with more modern antenna and with very similar capabilities to the iranian one. Kopyo-M couls also use R-77 missiles, which are equivalent of AIM-120 AMRAAM. Iran also develop their own data link to integrate jet in data network. Kowsar equipped with radar similar to Kopyo-M, armed with R-77 missiles and integrated in IADS through data link network is still dangerous oponent.
I remember the claim. How many aircraft have they installed the claimed radar on? Will Kowsar have it? And how many planned Kowsar are being built? I highly doubt anyone has a solid answer and going by their past record we might be lucky and see 6-12 aircraft and that's being optimistic
Their past record shows
Azarakhsh from 1997-2010 only 6 produced
Saeqeh from 2007-2018 only 7-9 produced
Saeqeh 2 from 2015-2018 none have been produced
All three types of aircraft are believed to using old
F-5 airframes.
As for toufan helicopters 10 toufan 1 are in service since 2010 and toufan 2 only 1 or 2 have been produced 2013-2018.
Not exactly promising that Kowsar isn't going to follow the same routine/ fate.
As for their stealth qaher 313 since 2013 they have shown one carrying out a runway taxi test in 2017. And many experts have thrown doubt at it. Another waste of money.
Iran might have had better success if they chose a soviet design such as mig-21 or J-7 and su-22. They would have had a better support pool of countries will to help and sell spares and parts than countries stocking F-5, Russia and China could supply radar and engine designs. Syria and North korea for one would have secretly shipped parts even under sanctions. Both types of aircraft would offer a decent interceptor/multi role and dedicated ground attack. Upgraded mig-21 would be better than a F-5. Another option would be mig-23 & mig-27 although alittle more complicated and if they ironed out any issues these aircraft had they would also be capable aircraft. Iran still has mig-23 in storage who knows they might drag them back out of storage overhaul and upgrade like they did with the su-22. They would slowly be able to drift away from the the usa aircraft which would end causing the nightmare there having of having to source parts produce parts and struggle to keep them flying
Vann7- Posts : 5385
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Join date : 2012-05-16
Some interesting reports from Hal radio news.. many times (not always) their reports are accurate ,or very close
to the whole incident.. they reporting about Russia military exercises ,were designed to to push farther US warship far from syria when launching Cruise missiles. Also that Russian media Pravda is warning Russian citizens that
a military confrontation between US and Russia in the next days is very possible.
BREAKING: 26 Russian Air Strikes against Idlib, Syria so far today; ISRAELI FIGHTER JET HIT BY SYRIAN MISSILE
http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/news/world-news/3103-breaking-26-russian-air-strikes-against-idlib-syria-so-far-today-israeli-fighter-jet-hit-by-syrian-missile
Take a look at the warships shield Russia is creating around Syria..
http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/opinion-editorial/hal-turner-commentary/3093-russia-scheduled-military-drills-in-med-designed-to-force-longer-us-missile-flight-times-to-syria
again his reports are 50/50 correct , and most times he gives sources of their reports with very suspicious
connecting evidence.. as for example.. they reported last year Russia shot down a globalhawk Drone of
Americans near Syria.. in retaliation for attacking Syrian combat jet.. based on his sources and in his report ,
he show ,that US reported a crash on that same day of the drone in question in USA.. during routine exercises.
So is very common to report your casualties somewhere else ,than the place it really happened... this is common for US military and Russia also have to be doing this too..
So during this week and next week.. with or without cruise missile attack on Syria by NATO...
People should pay attention at the mysterious accidents.. with warships or planes , during "routine"
exercises . some of them could be connected with military provocations of NATO /Israel to Russia/Syria in the zone.
When it comes to IDLIB , i don't think is a good idea for Syria to Liberate all of it.. Because the population there have been exported from Turkey and all parts of middle east by NATO ,handpicked ,for their anti Assad stance..
So Idlib could be used as a Trojan Horse to destabilize all Syria again ,if integrated the zone with Syria..
However the zones that terrorist control ,used to attack Russia base with drones, that should be flattened completely .. and no civilians there.. turn it into a desert... and any civilian inside ,moved to the zones controlled
directly by Erdogan.. so he forced to deals with a population friendly to US and Saudi Arabia..
to the whole incident.. they reporting about Russia military exercises ,were designed to to push farther US warship far from syria when launching Cruise missiles. Also that Russian media Pravda is warning Russian citizens that
a military confrontation between US and Russia in the next days is very possible.
BREAKING: 26 Russian Air Strikes against Idlib, Syria so far today; ISRAELI FIGHTER JET HIT BY SYRIAN MISSILE
UPDATED 7:50 PM EDT -- (See bottom)
Important events occurring in Syria today:
- Turkey continues to move units closer to the border and past bolstering its presence in the region.
- Israel strikes Iranian targets.
- Russia conducts limited airstrikes and continues Mediterranean Sea drills.
- US issues warning to Syrian gov
- USS Newport News attack submarine noted entering Med yesterday
- Turkey deploys a limited number of combat vessels to Med
- Syrian units continuing massing near #Idlib"
ISRAELI FIGHTER JET HIT BY SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE, MAKES EMERG. LANDING IN TURKEY
Less than 48 Hours ago, on September 2, this web site reported to the world that the Syrian Arab Army offensive to re-take Idlib Province from Terrorists and Rebels had begun (HERE). Yet within a couple hours, that "Offensive" stopped dead in its tracks without any public explanation.
Yesterday, September 3, it was revealed that the "offensive" was halted because the United States told Russia and Syria that it would not simply sit-by and do nothing as a Province with 2.3 Million people came under attack. The US made clear it felt such an attack would be a humanitarian disaster and urged both Syria and Russia to refrain from such activities, despite Idlib Province being the final holdout of Terrorists and Rebels who have torn Syria apart for the last 7 years.
Today, September 4, Russia answered those US concerns by conducting at least twenty-six (26) air strikes upon Idlib. Some photos are beginning to emerge from the area:
URGENT
An Israeli fighter was hit by a ground air rocket from Tartous base and made a forced landing on Incirlik base, Turkey.
http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/news/world-news/3103-breaking-26-russian-air-strikes-against-idlib-syria-so-far-today-israeli-fighter-jet-hit-by-syrian-missile
Take a look at the warships shield Russia is creating around Syria..
http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/opinion-editorial/hal-turner-commentary/3093-russia-scheduled-military-drills-in-med-designed-to-force-longer-us-missile-flight-times-to-syria
again his reports are 50/50 correct , and most times he gives sources of their reports with very suspicious
connecting evidence.. as for example.. they reported last year Russia shot down a globalhawk Drone of
Americans near Syria.. in retaliation for attacking Syrian combat jet.. based on his sources and in his report ,
he show ,that US reported a crash on that same day of the drone in question in USA.. during routine exercises.
So is very common to report your casualties somewhere else ,than the place it really happened... this is common for US military and Russia also have to be doing this too..
So during this week and next week.. with or without cruise missile attack on Syria by NATO...
People should pay attention at the mysterious accidents.. with warships or planes , during "routine"
exercises . some of them could be connected with military provocations of NATO /Israel to Russia/Syria in the zone.
When it comes to IDLIB , i don't think is a good idea for Syria to Liberate all of it.. Because the population there have been exported from Turkey and all parts of middle east by NATO ,handpicked ,for their anti Assad stance..
So Idlib could be used as a Trojan Horse to destabilize all Syria again ,if integrated the zone with Syria..
However the zones that terrorist control ,used to attack Russia base with drones, that should be flattened completely .. and no civilians there.. turn it into a desert... and any civilian inside ,moved to the zones controlled
directly by Erdogan.. so he forced to deals with a population friendly to US and Saudi Arabia..
starman- Posts : 762
Points : 760
Join date : 2016-08-10
Vann7 wrote:
When it comes to IDLIB , i don't think is a good idea for Syria to Liberate all of it.. Because the population there have been exported from Turkey and all parts of middle east by NATO ,handpicked ,for their anti Assad stance..
So Idlib could be used as a Trojan Horse to destabilize all Syria again ,if integrated the zone with Syria..
It would be worse, especially in the longterm, if Idlib were allowed to remain separate from Syria. If the SAA can take it, they can kill or imprison the worst of the terrorists and their supporters, which would be a lot better than letting them be a thorn in Assad's side, and worse, indefinitely. They could acquire more and deadlier weapons....
The US will make hostile noises, as before, but I don't think it will fight to prevent the capture of Idlib. The only reason for Assad to refrain from attacking is possible inordinate casualties. But they've faced that risk before, several times. Give Idlib a good softening up before moving in.
par far- Posts : 3496
Points : 3741
Join date : 2014-06-26
"HAY’AT TAHRIR AL-SHAM LEADERS ARE SELLING THEIR PROPERTY IN IDLIB AHEAD OF SYRIAN ARMY ATTACK – REPORT."
"Several leaders of the former branch of al-Qaeda in Syria, Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), began selling their properties in the northern governorate of Idlib ahead of a long-awaited attack of the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) and its allies, the al-Modon news outlet reported on September 6.
“Leaders and princes of Hay’at [HTS] began selling their property – restaurants, farms and commercial markets – fearing any battle or an unexpected scenario that may lead to the expulsion of Hay’at from Idlib… The most prominent leaders of Hay’at offered their property for sale secretly. So, they don’t spread panic among their supporters,” a source familiar with the situation told the Lebanese news outlet.
According to the source, “Abu Malik al-Tali,” a prominent leader of HTS, sold a shopping mall, which he had owned in the city of Idlib, while the infamous “Abu Maria al-Qahtani” sold several restaurants in the northern Idlib countryside. Many low ranking commanders of the radical group are also selling their property.
Several previous reports had predicted that the upcoming attack of the SAA and its allies on the opposition-held areas in northwestern Syria will mark the end of HTS, especially that Turkey added the radical group to its torero list only few days ago."
https://southfront.org/hayat-tahrir-al-sham-leaders-are-selling-their-property-in-idlib-ahead-of-syrian-army-attack-report/
"SYRIAN ARMY ADVANCES 2KM INSIDE AL-SAFA AREA."
"On September 6, the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) advanced 2km deep inside the heavily fortified area of al-Safa, north of the governorate of al-Suwayda, according to the Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA). The state-run news agency said that Syrian soldiers killed dozens of ISIS members during their advance.
Meanwhile, the al-Suwayda 24 blog reported that the SAA artillery and rocket launchers shelled dozens of positions of the terrorist group in al-Safa. According to the Syria-based blog, this forced the remaining terrorists to withdraw to the center of the area.
A day earlier, the SAA captured many positions in the outskirt of al-Safa following heavy clashes with the remaining fighters of ISIS there.
The SAA slowed down its operations in al-Safa over the last few weeks in order to ensure the safety of around 30 civilian hostages, who were abducted by ISIS in late June. The Damascus government had negotiated with the terrorist group to free the hostages. However, the negotiations failed and a military solution was adopted."
https://southfront.org/syrian-army-advances-2km-inside-al-safa-area/
This is from when the Douma battle was taking place, it just gives faces to the soldiers who were involved.
"Several leaders of the former branch of al-Qaeda in Syria, Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), began selling their properties in the northern governorate of Idlib ahead of a long-awaited attack of the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) and its allies, the al-Modon news outlet reported on September 6.
“Leaders and princes of Hay’at [HTS] began selling their property – restaurants, farms and commercial markets – fearing any battle or an unexpected scenario that may lead to the expulsion of Hay’at from Idlib… The most prominent leaders of Hay’at offered their property for sale secretly. So, they don’t spread panic among their supporters,” a source familiar with the situation told the Lebanese news outlet.
According to the source, “Abu Malik al-Tali,” a prominent leader of HTS, sold a shopping mall, which he had owned in the city of Idlib, while the infamous “Abu Maria al-Qahtani” sold several restaurants in the northern Idlib countryside. Many low ranking commanders of the radical group are also selling their property.
Several previous reports had predicted that the upcoming attack of the SAA and its allies on the opposition-held areas in northwestern Syria will mark the end of HTS, especially that Turkey added the radical group to its torero list only few days ago."
https://southfront.org/hayat-tahrir-al-sham-leaders-are-selling-their-property-in-idlib-ahead-of-syrian-army-attack-report/
"SYRIAN ARMY ADVANCES 2KM INSIDE AL-SAFA AREA."
"On September 6, the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) advanced 2km deep inside the heavily fortified area of al-Safa, north of the governorate of al-Suwayda, according to the Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA). The state-run news agency said that Syrian soldiers killed dozens of ISIS members during their advance.
Meanwhile, the al-Suwayda 24 blog reported that the SAA artillery and rocket launchers shelled dozens of positions of the terrorist group in al-Safa. According to the Syria-based blog, this forced the remaining terrorists to withdraw to the center of the area.
A day earlier, the SAA captured many positions in the outskirt of al-Safa following heavy clashes with the remaining fighters of ISIS there.
The SAA slowed down its operations in al-Safa over the last few weeks in order to ensure the safety of around 30 civilian hostages, who were abducted by ISIS in late June. The Damascus government had negotiated with the terrorist group to free the hostages. However, the negotiations failed and a military solution was adopted."
https://southfront.org/syrian-army-advances-2km-inside-al-safa-area/
This is from when the Douma battle was taking place, it just gives faces to the soldiers who were involved.
Airman- Posts : 440
Points : 488
Join date : 2016-10-15
Location : Turkey
#Turkey sends large amount of tanks,howitzers,artillery and commando forces to its #Syria border in #Hatay
https://twitter.com/metesohtaoglu/status/1037802965594243072
GarryB- Posts : 40551
Points : 41053
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
But they aren't exactly producing anything at a reasonable speed are they if what you say is true. Their copy of sea cobra has only resulted in a handful over many years and same with their previous aircraft so it's either down to lack of budget lack of parts or expertise or no will to actually build. Nobody can deny Iran quite often showcases a piece of equipment nothing gets either produced or produced more than a handful. This is the same for Belarus and Serbia. The sad thing is these countries normally make something half decent but nothing ever gets produced in reasonable quantities
Except that those Warsaw Pact countries that made AT-3 missiles had factories built for them and all the plans to build the missiles under licence and they have just updated the design... the Iranians started from nothing... even the US Navy was having problems keeping F-14s in service and I remember comments in the 1980s where they said that the Iranians would never keep them operational on their own.
Now with some assistance from an Oliver North that was not true, but even that would not be enough to keep them flying now... unless they knew what they were doing.
When there is no money then everyone just displays prototypes... and there is an enormous gulf between a prototype and an operational system... but then the Iranians also produce a lot of real equipment that actually goes into service including TOW variants and MANPADS etc...
F-5 can't deal with mig-21, let alone f-35, sukhois, eurocanards.
What makes you think that?
You can get a much bigger radar in the nose of an F-5 than you could in the nose intake of a MiG-21... and when you carry modern AAMs how will the target tell what launched them... will it matter whether it came from an F-5 or a MiG-29?
Of course we are not suggesting an entire air fleet of only F-5s, but in terms of a cheap numbers aircraft the F-5 is no worse a base than any other aircraft in terms of cheap fighters.
They should create a civilian plane instead ... much more interesting to invest in civilian projects during sanctions than on useless "fighters", if we can call their paper made fighters "fighters".
No point in wasting money on a civilian aircraft project when any products they might be producing can't be sold to any customer for fear of US sanctions...
Put a modern AESA radar in an F-5 and give it modern AAMs like R-77, and indeed pop out the two small engines and replace it with either an RD-33 or Al-31 and you would have quite a potent little fighter... use a PESA in 8 out of 10 fighters and use AESA for those other ones and you have a relatively cheap and simple fighter bomber you could operate 4-500 without being too expensive...
And which is more important... saving some dollars and being invaded by the US/Israel, or spending money on defence to protect your soverignty... they could let a Russian company build a railway from the north of the country to the south so Russia could transport goods across the Caspian Sea by ship and then across Iran by rail to deliver to India or most of Africa easily and quickly...
Many people has been dreaming with Turkey as ally of Russia, but the paramilitary behaviour of Turkey has been always totally hostile to Syria, Russia and Iran. And the three countries know it.
They know it but ties between Turkey and NATO or more importantly the EU are not written in steel... it was in their interests to join NATO and to join the EU... but rejection from the EU all these years... I would suggest Serbia is more likely to get into the EU than Turkey ever will.
What Syria and Russia and Iran need to do is make Turkey think it is in their interests to give up Syrian territory... This means Syria needs to be careful of Turkish interests too if they get that territory back.
If the US feels double crossed they could easily foment an uprising in the Turkish held areas... money talks... and the Americans can be bastards... ask Cuba... their only crime was nationalising their country from foreign ownership (much of it US organised crime owned gambling).
Erdogan need to remember that Putin once made fall the chair under him.
Better for him to remember it was the US that tried to kick the chair out from under him... with the support of his NATO allies it appears... it was Putin that helped him keep his seat...
isn't a problem hence I thought the su-22 upgrade was good making use of what you and making better my gripe was they were wasting money because it's likely only going to be either a one off or a handful produced unless there going to produce 24+ aircraft no point in it.
The F-5 has potential... I would suspect an Su-22 has more strike potential, but it is a heavier aircraft of a different purpose with little in the way of radar space...
Of course foreign support could further improve the F-5s potential too, but I am of course bias and think a MiG-29 would be a much better basis for development.
Kowsar equipped with radar similar to Kopyo-M, armed with R-77 missiles and integrated in IADS through data link network is still dangerous oponent.
A good simple cheap fighter for numbers...
Iran might have had better success if they chose a soviet design such as mig-21 or J-7 and su-22.
I agree... licence production of a MiG-29M2 would be a good basis for an aircraft used as a fighter and a light strike aircraft, but it would not be as cheap as an F-5 based aircraft could be... but its growth potential is better and if they are not actually making the airframes and just canabalising old airframes then aircraft production licences makes rather more sense.
(In the same sense rather than upgrading the AT-3 forever, I think Serbia should buy a licence to produce Kornet and just make enormous numbers of them...)
So with tanks instead of upgrading T-54s and T-55s, upgrading T-72s makes more sense as the base model is more capable and probably not that much more expensive...
Ironically a cheap light fighter would be popular in the region... perhaps a joint venture between MiG, Iran, Iraq, and Syria... would it be wishful thinking to add Turkey to that list... Iraq, Iran, an Syria could develop a MiG-29M2IIS cheap but capable aircraft while the Turks could develop a MiG-35KT, with AESA radar and all the bells and whistles...
#Turkey sends large amount of tanks,howitzers,artillery and commando forces to its #Syria border in #Hatay
So the question is... are they going to move over the border to fight Syrian and Russian forces, or are they to secure the border and stop any fleeing terrorist forces entering Turkey.
Personally I think Putin is not stupid and will not support a Syrian government advance without the support and cooperation of Turkey... the Russian aircraft will bomb known terrorist areas... fuel dumps and weapons caches, and armour etc... which of course will be reported in the west as hospitals, schools, and churches, but I think the Russians have stopped listening to the west regarding such things...
Isos- Posts : 11602
Points : 11570
Join date : 2015-11-06
What makes you think that?
You can get a much bigger radar in the nose of an F-5 than you could in the nose intake of a MiG-21... and when you carry modern AAMs how will the target tell what launched them... will it matter whether it came from an F-5 or a MiG-29?
Of course we are not suggesting an entire air fleet of only F-5s, but in terms of a cheap numbers aircraft the F-5 is no worse a base than any other aircraft in terms of cheap fighters.
Use l-38 albatros, much cheaper.
The reality is that radar and missile are only a part the system. Most likely jets that iran air force can face are modern f-22, f-35, f-18sh, israeli f-15/16 versions. F-5 upgraded as much as you want will be an easy target.
It matters if it is a f-5 or a mig-29. If the radar is detected by enemy RWR it will take measures against you and launch itself a missile at you. You have very capable jammer for mig-29 and much more space to carry fuel and weapons.
US air force is more likely to have a better picture of the engagement area with its douzens of awacs than iranian ground based radar that will be targeted the first day. So shoot and run tactics is easier for US jets. Iranian jets will have to turn on their radars to look for targets.
JohninMK- Posts : 15652
Points : 15793
Join date : 2015-06-16
Location : England
What has all that about the F-5 etc got to do with this thread?
Back on topic, another very senior officer dead at the front, 3* this time. They say that in some organisations promotion is via 'dead man's shoes' in this case these armies seem to take it literally.
Qalaat Al Mudiq
@QalaatAlMudiq
10m10 minutes ago
S. #Syria: #ISIS killed Imad Mohamed Houriyah on E. #Suweida front, an Air Force Intelligence's General from #Tartus province.
Back on topic, another very senior officer dead at the front, 3* this time. They say that in some organisations promotion is via 'dead man's shoes' in this case these armies seem to take it literally.
Qalaat Al Mudiq
@QalaatAlMudiq
10m10 minutes ago
S. #Syria: #ISIS killed Imad Mohamed Houriyah on E. #Suweida front, an Air Force Intelligence's General from #Tartus province.
Vann7- Posts : 5385
Points : 5485
Join date : 2012-05-16
Turkey sending its tanks to block Syrian army from defeating the Alnusra terrorist factions in idlib.. 
Russia should seriously reconsider its deals with Turkey.. can't trust in erdogan.. he have its own agenda..
contrary to what his sponsors claims and is to keep Syria split ,in parts and the war to continue.
Good news is Erdogan will not last forever ,with the enemies he have .. just one bullet on his head and a new coup ,will put and end to Turkey adventures in Syria and relations with terrorism and double games in Syria.
Russia should seriously reconsider its deals with Turkey.. can't trust in erdogan.. he have its own agenda..
contrary to what his sponsors claims and is to keep Syria split ,in parts and the war to continue.
Good news is Erdogan will not last forever ,with the enemies he have .. just one bullet on his head and a new coup ,will put and end to Turkey adventures in Syria and relations with terrorism and double games in Syria.
Aristide- Posts : 1075
Points : 1165
Join date : 2017-12-31
Age : 27
Location : Aix-en-Provence
I guess Assad will attack now. I hope they dont use chemical weapons. Afaik the european countries including France want to stabilize Syria and another chemical attack would push all that back.