Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #5

rip




RIP

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Turkey has summoned the Russian ambassador over the downed Su-24, according to Bloomberg.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20151124/1030652066/turkey-russia-su24-downed.html#ixzz3sPYwS67O

arpakola wrote:rip

Вечная память

wilhelm wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
A violation of a sovereign states airspace is grounds for destruction of the offending aircraft.

Then shoot down all Turkish airplanes operating over or just across the border.

Wilhelm, FP said that not me.

You misquoted.

Rodinazombie wrote:Before russia will react, they have to see how the US/NATO/EU will respond to this.

If putin can get worldwide condemnation of at least a consensus of disproval from the big players, with more effort and pressure being put on turkey to stop its support of terrorists, i think we will find a common sense solution for the west and russia.

If the west comes out and backs turkey, then i think its going to get very ugly and fast.

This is also going to be an indicator of how nato would react to one of its members being attacked, their willingness to stick up for a fellow member state. For that reason alone they are obliged to stick up for turkey, or else the credibility of nato will start to erode. At the same time though they cant just allow its members to start wars willy nilly with a military superpower.

Difficult times ahead for nato.

Yes, I think the NATO Washington response is crucial. If the puppet Stoltenberg uses terminology, no matter now convoluted, that essentially blames this on "Russian agression", then we are in deep and murky waters. This incident in itself is far too small to cause war, and will not, but there will be a ripple effect that moves other events on, in area 404 for instance.

Oï it seems that we have pictures of two different Russian pilots dead, Rumiantsev (there's a still frame) and the other one on the footage.

arpakola wrote:

flamming_python wrote:If it was shot down in Turkish airspace then they had the right to.

It's not like it's the first time our planes violated their airspace, let's be honesst.

At the same time though, the fact that they actually went this far - does indeed merit a response. Cancelling all flights, pulling out tourists, bombing 'Turkmen' (Islamist) positions with a new intensity, and the start of arms shipments to the PKK and so on.
Let's see how they like that.

oh.. come on>>  2,7 Km >>> 19 sec ... even if we trust the maps given by  the Turks  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkdnCuW4AAxX9L.png



So within this time slot the Turks managed to give warning , lock the target , made the decision to hit..  and fired..!!

How come Turks can give 10 warnings for such a short time?

How come Turkish F-16 could fly after and shot Russian jet in such a short period of time?

KiloGolf wrote:

Militarov wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:If that Fencer was indeed brought down by TuAF then this shows a great lack of contingency or over-confidence from the Russian side. Any outdated soviet bomber is mince meat for an AIM-120B or -C. It seems these bombers were on their own there. No escort on AEW&C assets and whilst operating against an ethnic minority that is favored by Turkey.

Not wise at all.

Range is way too short for AIM120 to be used there. Its far more likely it was Sidewinder or Sparrow, since those are the most numerous missiles in TuAF.

Sparrow most numerous in TuAF? That's incorrect, their few  (~50) remaining F-4Es despite remaining AIM-7 capable have been assigned to A2G duties. Their numerous fighter is F-16 (~230) and that can only fire AIM-9 or AIM-120.

And how did you determine "the range being too short"? Too short for what?
They blasted the Fencer, safely, while flying within their airspace. The C5 has range > 100 km.

Who says F16 cant fire Sparrow? Coz you just said that, and that is not true. Sparrows have all probably 10 years more to spend in storages, which probably makes them still most numerous missile in TuAF beside Sidewinder. Fact that Turks do not use them on F16s coz they have AIM120s now does not mean they are the most numerous, you do not need college for this deduction. AIM7 was main BVR missile in TuAF till basically yesterday i do not think they just throw them out of the window.

And as you could notice i said "Sparrow and Sidewinder" i never said AIM7 is the most numerous, but two together, so please stop placing words in my mouth that i did not say.



Path of F16 and SU24 by Turks, range from within F16 engaged is not more than 20km probably even less if you care you can measure. One does not fire 75+ km range BVR missile on something you can spit on form cockpit.

Also notice word LIKELY there, i used LIKELY.

Mark ‏@markito0171 1h1 hour ago
#Syria #Latakia Reports of shot down helicopter above Al-Kawm near #Salma
https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/669114783979950080

Helicopter shot down claim.

Russia must now play turkish card against the turks

And bring iskanders in Syria, to hit turkmens with it instead with planes.Increase land troops by at least five fold. Turkey will regret this, thats for sure

KiloGolf wrote:

Cyrus the great wrote:The God damn Turks are unbearably arrogant, and don't seem to fully appreciate the fact that Russia is a superpower and that fucking with a superpower is NEVER a good idea, NATO's theoretical support notwithstanding. Turkey really seems to think that Northern Syria falls under their jurisdiction...

They do feel it's "their jurisdiction" with all neighbouring countries (Hellas, Cyprus occupation, etc.) when in fact even their territory is an anachronistic colonial dinosaur comprising > 30% ethnic Kurds and God know what else.

Kurds MHO will be most probable long term answer... Free Kurdistan? then ottoman will be only called in context of furniture.


As for FSA pighs for killing Russian pilot shall have no right to be taken prisoner, unless 3degeree burns 90% of body with pig´s lard

Militarov wrote:Who says F16 cant fire Sparrow? Coz you just said that, and that is not true. Sparrows have all probably 10 years more to spend in storages

TuAF F-16 cannot fire the sparrow. There was a period in 80s and early 90s when both our AF Vipers lacked long-range missile capability, until we received AMRAAMs.

Few F-16s (F-16A/B) do and only some ANG conversion did, like the one leased to Italy, like a decade ago. Taiwanese Viper maybe, Egyptian ones also (?). In NATO none do as of now.

KoTeMoRe wrote:Oï it seems that we have pictures of two different Russian pilots dead, Rumiantsev (there's a still frame) and the other one on the footage.

This one is captured not dead... at least i suppose thats the case.

Guys, can anyone repost that story of what the turkish defence official said the other day about accepting isis and the need to fight against putin?

Is that a syrian or russian helicopter?

ShahryarHedayatiSHBA wrote:

arpakola wrote:

flamming_python wrote:If it was shot down in Turkish airspace then they had the right to.

It's not like it's the first time our planes violated their airspace, let's be honesst.

At the same time though, the fact that they actually went this far - does indeed merit a response. Cancelling all flights, pulling out tourists, bombing 'Turkmen' (Islamist) positions with a new intensity, and the start of arms shipments to the PKK and so on.
Let's see how they like that.

oh.. come on>>  2,7 Km >>> 19 sec ... even if we trust the maps given by  the Turks  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkdnCuW4AAxX9L.png



So within this time slot the Turks managed to give warning , lock the target , made the decision to hit..  and fired..!!

How come Turks can give 10 warnings for such a short time?

How come Turkish F-16 could fly after and shot Russian jet in such a short period of time?

It's quite simple, they saw the airplane approaching their airspace, and gave it a warning while it was still in Syrian airspace. At 5km out, at 3km out, etc...
That's what they claim, and it sounds quite plausible.

So it wasn't a trap as such, they just wanted to send a message.

Now the question is what Russia does next as a message back. Annihilates the Islamists in that region by all means necessary (so that the Turks have no-one more to cry about), removes all tourists from the country, and arms the Kurds. Sounds about fair. Kicking out Turkish citizens from Russia too maybe, for their own protection more than anything else.

Honestly I'd love to have a Turkish plane shot down but it won't be possible unless they're stupid enough to intrude into Syrian airspace.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Kurds MHO will be most probable long term answer... Free Kurdistan? then ottoman will be only  called in context of furniture.
As for FSA pighs for killing Russian pilot shall have no right to be taken prisoner, unless 3degeree burns 90% of body with pig´s lard

I already said that Russia should sponsor the free Kurdistan Republic in Turkey (not in Syria though).
I'd LOVE to see that. Hope it happens.

RIP

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Militarov wrote:Path of F16 and SU24 by Turks, range from within F16 engaged is not more than 20km probably even less if you care you can measure. One does not fire 75+ km range BVR missile on something you can spit on form cockpit.

Also notice word LIKELY there, i used LIKELY.

20 km is a good range to release an good old AIM-120B or a new -C5/C7 against a heavy, unsuspecting bomber with no serious defenses. It's a sure kill range. But all this is speculation, this incident might be SAM launch for all we know. Turkey despite their primitive SAM cover, still has I-HAWKs. It's easy to sneak in some near the border and setup a trap.

It makes me wonder if Turkey had NATO's backing for this? I can't imagine Turkey doing this on it's own.

flamming_python wrote:

ShahryarHedayatiSHBA wrote:

arpakola wrote:

flamming_python wrote:If it was shot down in Turkish airspace then they had the right to.

It's not like it's the first time our planes violated their airspace, let's be honesst.

At the same time though, the fact that they actually went this far - does indeed merit a response. Cancelling all flights, pulling out tourists, bombing 'Turkmen' (Islamist) positions with a new intensity, and the start of arms shipments to the PKK and so on.
Let's see how they like that.

oh.. come on>>  2,7 Km >>> 19 sec ... even if we trust the maps given by  the Turks  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkdnCuW4AAxX9L.png



So within this time slot the Turks managed to give warning , lock the target , made the decision to hit..  and fired..!!

How come Turks can give 10 warnings for such a short time?

How come Turkish F-16 could fly after and shot Russian jet in such a short period of time?

It's quite simple, they saw the airplane approaching their airspace, and gave it a warning while it was still in Syrian airspace. At 5km out, at 3km out, etc...
That's what they claim, and it sounds quite plausible.

So it wasn't a trap as such, they just wanted to send a message.

Now the question is what Russia does next as a message back. Annihilates the Islamists in that region by all means necessary (so that the Turks have no-one more to cry about), removes all tourists from the country, and arms the Kurds. Sounds about fair. Kicking out Turkish citizens from Russia too maybe, for their own protection more than anything else.

Honestly I'd love to have a Turkish plane shot down but it won't be possible unless they're stupid enough to intrude into Syrian airspace.

You understand that a normal country doesn't issue warnings over its neighbour's territory? Unless Baltic Air Police.

Do you really think its a coinidence that right after russia starts destroying oil being smuggled into turkey, that turkey shoots its plane down?

Putin is going to speak soon, damn him if he calls turkey his 'partners'.

Karl Haushofer wrote:It makes me wonder if Turkey had NATO's backing for this? I can't imagine Turkey doing this on it's own.

Very little beyond verbal warnings and possibly sending in some Partiots by Netherlands or Germany (due to Turkey lacking medium-to-long-range SAMs).

macedonian wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Kurds MHO will be most probable long term answer... Free Kurdistan? then ottoman will be only  called in context of furniture.
As for FSA pighs for killing Russian pilot shall have no right to be taken prisoner, unless 3degeree burns 90% of body with pig´s lard

I already said that Russia should sponsor the free Kurdistan Republic in Turkey (not in Syria though).
I'd LOVE to see that. Hope it happens.

In Syria they already agreed on broad autonomy. this was sooo much pissing Erdoporkey. No wonder in turkey 30% of populations is hunted and treated like sh#t just because they are Kurds.