Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #5

Neutrality wrote:What would happen if the Turks shot down a Russian jet 30 years ago, when the USSR was still alive and well?

Pretty much nothing as if you imply the post-Andropov USSR.
Pakistan (of all countries) was able to blast Soviet MiGs with no major trouble and using merely AIM-9s.

Did anyone notice how Stoltenberg didn't express any condolences towards the killed pilots? They are literally acting as if Turkey came under attack and it was THEM who lost a jet.

Heartless bastards. No morals and no values. At moments like this I hope hell exists and that Satan himself has an entire theme park ready for these animals.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The probability of hit of an AMRAAM is minuscule (close to zero), even with no EW present. The probability of hit of a Sidewinder is higher, and that of the 20 mm gun is much much higher.

Why post this crap? blah, blah, blah

Just correcting your posts.

Taking out rage against the AMRAAM and posting incoherent drivel is not the way to go.

KiloGolf wrote:

Neutrality wrote:What would happen if the Turks shot down a Russian jet 30 years ago, when the USSR was still alive and well?

Pretty much nothing as if you imply the post-Andropov USSR.
Pakistan (of all countries) was able to blast Soviet MiGs with no major trouble and using merely AIM-9s.

One Soviet Su-25 actually. The MiG-23s were never shot down, only one damaged (and returned to base). They did shoot down several Afghan aircraft though.

More relevant, what happened when Israel shot down five Soviet MiG-21s in 1970...not much.

Just to point out here that about 80 of the F-16C/D fleet (~230) in TuAF service was paid for in the 90s by Gulf countries as supposed insurance against evil Saddam (after Desert Storm). So one of the reasons why their Air Force is so large is partially due to Gulf money.

I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

zg18 wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:Not a chance in hell. This wasn't about airspace, nor is it about a Sukhoi a chopper and 3 soldiers/pilots. It's about Turkey trying to stop Russia from clearing the Syrian North from FSA. It's not exactly a week long feud, nor some BS about that. If the Pilots would have been returned safely and the search party was back flashing smiles, MAYBE the escalation would have been over three months later. Now, it's just planning time. Turkey is going down in Northern Syria. It's just the way things got right now. Short of and actual Turkish action in the ground there's no end to the Turkmen pain. Just because reasons.

Agreed, Erdogan tried to provoke Putin into doing something that would provoke NATO response, Putin is way too experienced and smart to fall for such a ploy. Erdogan is alone and is losing in Syria.

Erdogan can always try and stir up the comeuppance of the Turkmen into ZOMG genocide. From now on lesson learned, get right at the limit, bomb the shit out of the place, as in-distinctively as possible, as often as possible. If it Latakia till the border can be paved with dead bodies, then who cares. If you have to incinerated every living being in the area, who the hell cares.

People who know this shit better than me are livid, they're all adamant that there was no logic in firing AIM120/AIM9 towards the SU-24 crossing the border. It's shooting a man in the back while he's not trespassing any more. French pilot, friend of mine, told me that even at 300 km/h he finds the 17 second crossing for 1.85km absolutely nonsensical. Why would the Russians go so slow over a place they cannot be. If anything they had finished bombing so they would have been flying at least twice that speed. At least. It doesn't make sense, unless the Turks are actually lying and the Russians Never actually crossed the line. If they did, and were going that slow, the missile should have hit them way closer to the Turkish border, not at almost 5 km from their exit point. 4/5 km = 4/5 seconds of flight. for the missile. And at 100m/s remember 17/seconds for 1.8 km = ~100m/s, so the Russians were out of Turkish airspace for 40 seconds (that simply doesn't add up with what was said or then this was a head on interception, which then would show that the Turks FIRED the missile while the SU was not in Turkish airspace any more.

It's just murder.

Cucumber Khan wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Neutrality wrote:What would happen if the Turks shot down a Russian jet 30 years ago, when the USSR was still alive and well?

Pretty much nothing as if you imply the post-Andropov USSR.
Pakistan (of all countries) was able to blast Soviet MiGs with no major trouble and using merely AIM-9s.

One Soviet Su-25 actually. The MiG-23s were never shot down, only one damaged (and returned to base). They did shoot down several Afghan aircraft though.

More relevant, what happened when Israel shot down five Soviet MiG-21s in 1970...not much.

4 sub-standard MiG-21 with no internal gun vs. ultra-modern F-4E with gun (not even USAF had those operational in 1970), Israel claims 5.

Cucumber Khan wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Neutrality wrote:What would happen if the Turks shot down a Russian jet 30 years ago, when the USSR was still alive and well?

Pretty much nothing as if you imply the post-Andropov USSR.
Pakistan (of all countries) was able to blast Soviet MiGs with no major trouble and using merely AIM-9s.

One Soviet Su-25 actually. The MiG-23s were never shot down, only one damaged (and returned to base). They did shoot down several Afghan aircraft though.

More relevant, what happened when Israel shot down five Soviet MiG-21s in 1970...not much.

Eeeh, Pakistan lost some of its own aircraft for that Su.

The Israelis in 1970 were shooting at "egyptian" planes, Soviets "weren't there". Something they paid dear enough in 1973. So yeah you want a Yom Kipur for Turkey?

Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

Militarov wrote:

Yeap, welcome to the happy family of NATO.
This is the last time our Mirage 2000 shot one of them down (F-16D), the co-pilot was killed (his name was Erdogan).




this was a year later, lots of tension back then

Wow.

Modern r-27's, Russian and made with active radar as well.  Take a gander buddy before spewing your horseshit.  R-27EA.

KiloGolf wrote:

Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.

It doesn't matter what USSR did or didn't back in the 70's or 80's, we've got late november 2015,situation is different now and Russia response will be what Putin commands good or bad.

Whether the response wil be weak or strong, it will have nothing to do with ancient geopolitical situation.

Regular wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.

No.  No they are not usually.  Go to the airforce section. Su-34's, 24's, 27's ect all have variations and plenty of EW/ECM use.  R-27EM comes quite close to performance of the R-77 and already runored of R-77-1 been in production for years.

KiloGolf wrote:

Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

I don't even...

sepheronx wrote:

Regular wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.

No.  No they are not usually.  Go to the airforce section. Su-34's, 24's, 27's ect all have variations and plenty of EW/ECM use.  R-27EM comes quite close to performance of the R-77 and already runored of R-77-1 been in production for years.

Well, thanks for You too. I'll do some research before sleep. I hate flying and I kept ignoring jets all together.
The thing is Russia might not have all the bells and whistles in the theater, but I think it's time to ship them here.

sepheronx wrote:

Regular wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.

No.  No they are not usually.  Go to the airforce section. Su-34's, 24's, 27's ect all have variations and plenty of EW/ECM use.  R-27EM comes quite close to performance of the R-77 and already runored of R-77-1 been in production for years.

R77-1 has been spotted on MiG31BMs few months ago.

sepheronx wrote:Wow.

Modern r-27's, Russian and made with active radar as well.  Take a gander buddy before spewing your horseshit.  R-27EA.

No, I don't think that's a widespread missile among RuAF units, contrary to AMRAAM in TuAF service. If it is, post us some links about numbers procured and units operating it. I would like to learn more on that. Granted anything going into the hotspot of SYria will have it. But still the entire missile design belongs to a different generation than the AMRAAM. Hence the AA-12 development, which is troubled nevertheless.

Also, take a big step back and control yourself, with the foul language posturing.

From October:

Revealed: Turkish helicopters violated Armenian airspace twice this week for 2-4 minutes. Excuse is "bad weather." http://t.co/SZ6Dbbmn1E

Wow, Turkey really pissing on Putin's face, murdering Russians for doing exactly what they did.

Regular wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Regular wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.

No.  No they are not usually.  Go to the airforce section. Su-34's, 24's, 27's ect all have variations and plenty of EW/ECM use.  R-27EM comes quite close to performance of the R-77 and already runored of R-77-1 been in production for years.

Well, thanks for You too. I'll do some research before sleep. I hate flying and I kept ignoring jets all together.
The things is Russia might not have all the bells and whistles in the theater, but I think it's time to ship them here.

Why, there's enough bells and whistles in theatre for what is coming. Once you get those three poor souls out of there and bury them, the mission is still a success, without Turkish meddling and backstabbing there was ZERO problem for the bombing runs. I'd say this a clear and obvious evidence that Turkey is getting hurt from the Russian mission, so it will continue, with the usual suspects in mind. Obviously the Russians stepped on a sore thumb there, so more steppin'. But this time, no shortcuts. Maybe this will learn some nav discipline to Russian pilots, I mean if it was only that.

Moscow warned Ankara about the "inevitable consequences" for the attack su-24

http://tass.ru/politika/2468146


Erdocunt:

Turkish policy in 2012, made a statement regarding the incident with the downed aircraft. "A minor breach of the border cannot be a pretext for such an attack. The Turkish aircraft had a training flight, when checking the radars in the Eastern Mediterranean" — such statement was made by Erdogan (then Prime Minister) in 2012, after the Syrian military shot down the F-4 Phantom that had violated the airspace borders of Syria.

Источник: http://politikus.ru/articles/63783-i-pochemu-ne-otvechat-nelzya.html
Politikus.ru

Regular wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.

R73Ms entered production in late 90s and have been procured for RuAF since early 2000s in what numbers is questionable but they did and do obtain them, R27EA/EP have been obtained too, R77 was obtained in all variants apparently including -1 version lately. So its not like they still only have stocks of 30 years old USSR built missiles...many of them are probably even near expiration of their storage time.