Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #5

Yeah clearer at least. Well they tried to come as close to the Syrian Lines it looks like.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys,

Those of you with linguistic skills, can you tell us if the Russian MoD's version mentions AA gun fire as the cause, or something was missed in the translation?

This is important.

I think RT has deleted the reference to gun fire now.

The distinction is meaningless, the Su's were flying very high, in plain sight, so from ground or from air, this isn't the casual ManPad, it's a bigger AA system anyway, be that A2A or S2A. By doeing this the Turks just signed their crime. They're coming forward with that airspace invasion crap because they want to make it look like it wasn't their fault, they were only acting in self defence.

The reason I am asking this is really related to trying to gauge the Russian response, because the way the Russians present the event relates to what they plan for their next move. The "relatively small" inconsistency in my prognosis is if the Russians try to paint the situation as a mere terrorist-operated ZU-23-2 bringing down a "Su-24M" at 6000 m.

One of those "primitive" Kh-55 could "wander off course" during next heavy bombing run... "accidental" shit happens all the time...

Establish a no fly zone with S-300 and shot across any border if the aircraft has even a vector even remotley to Syria. Russians now have the total right to vaporize anything turkish regardless on which side of the border. They attacked russia that is act of war direct act of war.

Russian Pilots of Su-24 Downed in Syria 'Most Likely Catapulted to Safety'

The pilots from the Russian Su-24 jet downed in Syrian managed to eject, the Russian Ministry of Defense said.

"The fate of the pilots is being determined. According to initial information, the pilots were able to catapult," the ministry said.

Meanwhile, the Turkish Dogan news agency has reported that Russian military helicopters are searching for the pilots from th edowned jet.

Earlier it was reported that the Russian Su-24 Fencer attack jet has crashed in Syria. It was most likely downed by a ground missile, according to the Russian Defense Ministry's statement.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151124/1030641944/russia-su24-dosned-syria-pilots.html#ixzz3sOuxo1as

PapaDragon wrote:One of those "primitive" Kh-55 could "wander off course" during next heavy bombing run... "accidental" shit happens all the time...

Hell, might as well do it at the Bosphorus straight. Have a big missile launch accidentally into a crowded population center nearby.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys,

Those of you with linguistic skills, can you tell us if the Russian MoD's version mentions AA gun fire as the cause, or something was missed in the translation?

This is important.

I think RT has deleted the reference to gun fire now.

Defence Ministry used this phrase "предположительно в результате обстрела с земли" Which is, "Presumably by gunfire from the ground", which as Militarov said can mean AAA or missile, but at 6000 meters clearly means missile. But the statement is not definitive, only what is thought at this time before more info is obtained.

Moderators,

Is it possible for the two Syrian threads to be merged together.

Russia is the culprit, period, and is not going to retaliate no matter what, end of story, oh and expect some grandiose press release from NATO greeting themselves for protecting Turkish airspace and loaded words about future consequences.

Khepesh wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys,

Those of you with linguistic skills, can you tell us if the Russian MoD's version mentions AA gun fire as the cause, or something was missed in the translation?

This is important.

I think RT has deleted the reference to gun fire now.

Defence Ministry used this phrase "предположительно в результате обстрела с земли" Which is, "Presumably by gunfire from the ground", which as Militarov said can mean AAA or missile, but at 6000 meters clearly means missile. But the statement is not definitive, only what is thought at this time before more info is obtained.

Thank you.

https://twitter.com/mod_russia

Morph: Yes the Russians want this to go under the carpet because reasons, but the Turks came early and fast forward with their own BS (about non_ID bogey/tango, lele sure Syrian SU-24 going that close, hah).

So the Russians can't deny it. The problem for the Turks is that Russians were flying high for one reason, not getting hit by manpad. So what ever hit the SU, it was given/done by Turkey. I bet the people monitoring the plane from the Sea can even say what system was used. If it turns out it was a Rapier or higher, there's no fucing way in hell the Russians were within Turkish territory.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
The reason I am asking this is really related to trying to gauge the Russian response, because the way the Russians present the event relates to what they plan for their next move. The "relatively small" inconsistency in my prognosis is if the Russians try to paint the situation as a mere terrorist-operated ZU-23-2 bringing down a "Su-24M" at 6000 m.

Whatever the Russian Response is.. they cannot allow their enemies to know which will be
their next move... So Russia can simply say is investigating what happened..and if Putin consulting with the generals think is time for war.. they will take Erdogan by surprise.. and bomb whatever target they consider important and painful and humiliating for them to lose..   And US will try to get Russia to fight Turkey to justify a major air defense deployment in Turkey border. and interrupt their Fight against ISIS..  

So Russia regardless if do nothing or start a war needs to hide its next plan of actions.. to get
Turkey by surprise.. ie.. if for example they want to bomb Erdogan car..they cannot do it if he is hiding in a bunker.. Im sure Russia will try to get a UNited NATIONs resolution to condemn Turkey illegal attack.. or get support before any retaliation.. Russia will need to consult with France and Germany and try to get as much support as possible to retaliate Turkey in one way or the other.. and or.. get an internatinal condenmantion on Turkey for its support of ISIS will be better.. // Such international condemnation on Erdogan will prepare the world for a Russia retaliaiton.. so later US cannot claim it was a Russian agression.. Whatever RUssia does
needs to get support from as many nations of Europe as Possible ,before doing anything.. to
get Public Opinion of Turkey people against its own president.. so they know it was Turkey the aggressor.

Firebird wrote:

Militarov wrote:"Turkish military authorities added the plane had been warned at least 10 times over a period of five minutes before being shot down by two Turkish F-16 fighter jets. He said the plane had violated Turkish airspace."

Air to Air engagement it seems.

Question is, what was the Russian jet supposedly doing that was so "bad". It wasn't bombing Turks. So its clearly that NATO bitch looking to cause shit and sidetrack Russia. Either way, its an act of war so I hope Russia tears Erdoprick and co a new one.

In cases like this, when enemy is at least supposed to be common, rules of engagement are stretched and occasional use of border area of airspace by other party is being ignored but naturally documented and tracked. As communication officer in VOJIN (basically our acronyme for "Air surveillance, reporting and navigation") i can tell you that order for fighters to engage something need to come from the top, literally President of General Chief of Staff in case President is not reachable.

For the love of God even launching two fighters to track sport plane without transponder takes at least Brigade general...

The Russian Defense Ministry has clearly stated that the Su-24 was flying at an altitude of 6000 meters.

http://tass.ru/en/defense/838729

I suspect they were not receiving air cover from Su 30SM and taking this opportunity a NATO fighter shot it down.

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:One of those "primitive" Kh-55 could "wander off course" during next heavy bombing run... "accidental" shit happens all the time...

Hell, might as well do it at the Bosphorus straight. Have a big missile launch accidentally into a crowded population center nearby.

There is no need to attack the population as answer for the downing of the plane, since that won't achieve anything meaningful in the long run -> human lives are cheap and can be quickly replenished by the quickly-breeding turks.
The best answer would take the form of focused efforts aimed at the formation of Kurdish state and weakening/destabilizing the Turkish state/military.

"Syrian rebel sources claim two Russian pilots have been captured alive, with one injured." - https://twitter.com/intlspectator/status/669091767988301825

Militarov wrote:"Syrian rebel sources claim two Russian pilots have been captured alive, with one injured." - https://twitter.com/intlspectator/status/669091767988301825

Like hell they have...

Where are those bloody Hinds, Rooks.

also a bit better news:

20/11/2015
http://vpk-news.ru/news/28123

8 Su-34 and echelon (AFAIK 4) Su-27SM3 reinforced Russian AF in Syria.

Acheron wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:One of those "primitive" Kh-55 could "wander off course" during next heavy bombing run... "accidental" shit happens all the time...

Hell, might as well do it at the Bosphorus straight. Have a big missile launch accidentally into a crowded population center nearby.

There is no need to attack the population as answer for the downing of the plane, since that won't achieve anything meaningful in the long run -> human lives are cheap and can be quickly replenished by the quickly-breeding turks.
The best answer would take the form of focused efforts aimed at the formation of Kurdish state and weakening/destabilizing the Turkish state/military.

Just as long as the missile is nuclear tipped and it hits a target of enough strategic value (like Istanbul) it could scar the nation for many years to come and then there is no need to beat around the bush.

RT on air: https://www.rt.com/on-air/

Allegedly one of the two Russian pilots of downed Su-24 via https://twitter.com/NorthernStork/status/669093757082431489