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One of the things they seem to be going for moving forward is compatibility of weapons across platforms and systems...
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66 posters
Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5
GarryB- Posts : 40473
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LMFS- Posts : 5156
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Huge missile, around 4 tons, that needs to be suspended from a place where weapons bays' doors are. Not impossible, but it means lots of work in any case. I support it 200% but I am surprised this is announced so soon, just that.flamming_python wrote:LMFS wrote:
They also state that Kinzhal will be compatible with Su-57...
Why shouldn't it be?
It's as good a platform as any.
PapaDragon
PapaDragon- Posts : 13457
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LMFS wrote:Huge missile, around 4 tons, that needs to be suspended from a place where weapons bays' doors are. Not impossible, but it means lots of work in any case. I support it 200% but I am surprised this is announced so soon, just that.flamming_python wrote:LMFS wrote:
They also state that Kinzhal will be compatible with Su-57...
Why shouldn't it be?
It's as good a platform as any.
Agreed, it's the size
If it were up to me I'd try to get the Kinzhal mounted on Su-30/34 first, way more of those available all over the place and given the range of missile type of platform is not too important, it just needs to get it in the air
LMFS- Posts : 5156
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From Sukhoi's site, in case somebody hadn't checked the info available there:
https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/https/www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/410/
https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/https/www.sukhoi.org/products/samolety/410/
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6163
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LMFS wrote:Huge missile, around 4 tons, that needs to be suspended from a place where weapons bays' doors are. Not impossible, but it means lots of work in any case. I support it 200% but I am surprised this is announced so soon, just that.flamming_python wrote:LMFS wrote:
They also state that Kinzhal will be compatible with Su-57...
Why shouldn't it be?
It's as good a platform as any.
precisely, personally I dont think Kinzhals will be used by Su-57. GZUR, lightweight Zircons - yup . Kinnhal in my IMHO is stopgap before other hypersonic missiles re not missiles produced.. Nothing is announced yet. too.
plus
1) this website says "Kinzahl can be carried by" instead of " will be "
2) This is professional MIC portal but not any official MoD one
LMFS- Posts : 5156
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It is a source I considered serious, that is why I quote it... I also asked here regarding the Su-57 data stated there but nobody seems to know or care. Anyway, they could have been launching Kinzhals from PAK-FAs for years and we would know a big NOTHING of all that. Any big missile launched from the Su-57 would need a special suspension point in the tunnel between the engines, so it may be useful for Kinzhal and for any other VERY BIG missile. Would be great that you weapons bays do not impede you from carrying oversized weapons externally, so why not create an add-on that substitutes the doors of the bays and is attached to the 4 internal suspension points? That should be robust enoughGunshipDemocracy wrote:precisely, personally I dont think Kinzhals will be used by Su-57. GZUR, lightweight Zircons - yup . Kinnhal in my IMHO is stopgap before other hypersonic missiles re not missiles produced.. Nothing is announced yet. too.
plus
1) this website says "Kinzahl can be carried by" instead of " will be "
2) This is professional MIC portal but not any official MoD one
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6163
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LMFS wrote:
It is a source I considered serious, that is why I quote it... I also asked here regarding the Su-57 data stated there but nobody seems to know or care.
I do but I only now noticed it
LFMS wrote: Anyway, they could have been launching Kinzhals from PAK-FAs for years and we would know a big NOTHING of all that. Any big missile launched from the Su-57 would need a special suspension point in the tunnel between the engines, so it may be useful for Kinzhal and for any other VERY BIG missile. Would be great that you weapons bays do not impede you from carrying oversized weapons externally, so why not create an add-on that substitutes the doors of the bays and is attached to the 4 internal suspension points? That should be robust enough
I can see here 2 issues: technicality yup, it should be possible but the question why to do it?!
BTW If you'd carry Kinzhal by Su-57 why would you need any other ordnance on the sm flight?
LMFS- Posts : 5156
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The tunnel is IMO the only place where you can carry such big missiles. And these are important because they allow to strike powerfully from very long distances, far from the air defences of a potential enemy. Su-57 is not as fast as MiG-31 but in terms of T/W ratio and wing load it is substantially better, maybe it could come close to 2 M at very high altitude with the Kinzhal onboard.GunshipDemocracy wrote:I can see here 2 issues: technicality yup, it should be possible but the question why to do it?!
The suspension point I mean would prevent you from using the ventral bays at the same time. Two IR missiles at the wing root bays just in case and that would be it. Additional escort if needed would imply further Su-57 in the wing flying in A2A config.BTW If you'd carry Kinzhal by Su-57 why would you need any other ordnance on the sm flight?
Hole- Posts : 11106
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If the Su-57 would carry a Kinzhal under the belly it could also carry 4 R-77 under the wings. The low observability would already be damaged by the Kinzahl.
GarryB- Posts : 40473
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They could design it so that the structure that holds the Kinzhal under the centre line is located in one or other of the central weapon bays... the shape of the missiles means it could be semi recessed in the rear bay but the front bay could be closed and full of AAMs, with the wing internal bays carrying two short range AAMs, that could mean the rear bay open with the Kinzhal semi recessed into it with the bay doors open... much like the Tu-22M3 can carry a Kh-22M missile on its centre semi recessed into the internal weapons bay.
Once the Kinzhal is fired the rear weapons bay can be closed regaining full stealth with wing internal weapon bay and front weapon bay retaining air to air weapon for whatever is needed after the main weapon has been launched.
The point is that the same arrangement could also be used for other weapon loads of outsized weapons like Onyz or Brahmos or Zircon... though these weapons with their two stage design and long length will extend further forward...
Once the Kinzhal is fired the rear weapons bay can be closed regaining full stealth with wing internal weapon bay and front weapon bay retaining air to air weapon for whatever is needed after the main weapon has been launched.
The point is that the same arrangement could also be used for other weapon loads of outsized weapons like Onyz or Brahmos or Zircon... though these weapons with their two stage design and long length will extend further forward...
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6163
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@LMFS/@CM Burns / @GB
-I dont question your technical arguments. My point was however - why to do it?!
Su-57 is fighter built in relatively small numbers. Kinzhal is heavy and cumbersome to adapt. There are many Kinzhal carriers already. Su-57 should better to cover carriers if needed.
GZUR II will have better range and supposedly lover weight (GZUR 1 ~ 1,500kg).
-I dont question your technical arguments. My point was however - why to do it?!
Su-57 is fighter built in relatively small numbers. Kinzhal is heavy and cumbersome to adapt. There are many Kinzhal carriers already. Su-57 should better to cover carriers if needed.
GZUR II will have better range and supposedly lover weight (GZUR 1 ~ 1,500kg).
Hole- Posts : 11106
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LMFS- Posts : 5156
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As said, every long range missile will be too big to be carried in the bays, be it Kinzhal, a aero-launched version of Zirkon, GZUR or whatever. So it makes sense to adapt Su-57 to carry them, it seems pretty obvious to me...GunshipDemocracy wrote:@LMFS/@CM Burns / @GB
-I dont question your technical arguments. My point was however - why to do it?!
Su-57 is fighter built in relatively small numbers. Kinzhal is heavy and cumbersome to adapt. There are many Kinzhal carriers already. Su-57 should better to cover carriers if needed.
GZUR II will have better range and supposedly lover weight (GZUR 1 ~ 1,500kg).
Isos- Posts : 11591
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GunshipDemocracy wrote:@LMFS/@CM Burns / @GB
-I dont question your technical arguments. My point was however - why to do it?!
Su-57 is fighter built in relatively small numbers. Kinzhal is heavy and cumbersome to adapt. There are many Kinzhal carriers already. Su-57 should better to cover carriers if needed.
GZUR II will have better range and supposedly lover weight (GZUR 1 ~ 1,500kg).
Unifying everything. The newest systems are not bought in huge numbers. So if they are all compatible with all the missiles then you can use any of them with any missile that is in the stock.
They will have a couple of douzens of mig-31 upgraded for kinzhal. If they are used in the north to watch for cruise missiles and russian navy detects a carrier somewhere in the mediteranean then a su-57 can launch it if they have a su-57 somewhere near and unused.
The best thing to do however is using naval aviation with this missile and not the air force. The targeting and reaction time during a war should be much better than with ai force that has already a job to do. And the navy has also some mig-31.
Last edited by Isos on Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:04 am; edited 1 time in total
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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LMFS wrote:As said, every long range missile will be too big to be carried in the bays, be it Kinzhal, a aero-launched version of Zirkon, GZUR or whatever. So it makes sense to adapt Su-57 to carry them, it seems pretty obvious to me...GunshipDemocracy wrote:@LMFS/@CM Burns / @GB
-I dont question your technical arguments. My point was however - why to do it?!
Su-57 is fighter built in relatively small numbers. Kinzhal is heavy and cumbersome to adapt. There are many Kinzhal carriers already. Su-57 should better to cover carriers if needed.
GZUR II will have better range and supposedly lover weight (GZUR 1 ~ 1,500kg).
Well Zircon from a naval/ground launcher will have 1000km range, and a full sized air-launched version would likely have 4000km range (when you factor in the 4 fold increase of Iskander-M's range, from 500km to 2000km with Kinzhal), so a smaller version that could fit in the bays could still maintain a 1000-15000km range, a bay launched version of Kinzhal could have 1000km range.
LMFS- Posts : 5156
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Well, I am not that optimistic regarding weapons compatible with the bays. For instance Kh-59Mk2 was something like 300 km range and it is subsonic. Of course size of warhead is an important factor here but to me this indicates that volumetric restrictions of the bays are severe, it is already an achievement that Su-57 can carry relatively big A2G ordnance there.magnumcromagnon wrote:Well Zircon from a naval/ground launcher will have 1000km range, and a full sized air-launched version would likely have 4000km range (when you factor in the 4 fold increase of Iskander-M's range, from 500km to 2000km with Kinzhal), so a smaller version that could fit in the bays could still maintain a 1000-15000km range, a bay launched version of Kinzhal could have 1000km range.
As for GZUR, if it is going to substitute Kh-15, it would also not fit in the bays of the PAK-FA
I think we could make a proper calculation of the range increase for a weapon if launched from air at a given speed and height, if I find the time I will search for an appropriate ballistic calculator...
kvs- Posts : 15837
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I doubt the factor of 4 airborne gain is realistic. The 500 km range on the Iskander is a clear arbitrary limit imposed by Russian
compliance with the INF. It is not a its maximum range in physical reality. We are talking about Mach 10 and not Mach 2 for
the Kinzhal. It achieves its range by having a large speed which is made possible due spectacular improvements in Russian rocket
fuel technology over the last 20+ years. Any aircraft carrying the Kinzhal can only give it an initial velocity equal to the speed of
the aircraft. The Mig-31 does not fly that fast.
Of course there is some benefit from air launch, but nowhere near 300%. Putting the Kinzhal on a jet saves the cost of having
a booster stage and also extends the range of the missile by including the range of the flying launcher. Also, having an air launcher
allows for deployment flexibility since moving land launchers around is much slower and rather pointless.
compliance with the INF. It is not a its maximum range in physical reality. We are talking about Mach 10 and not Mach 2 for
the Kinzhal. It achieves its range by having a large speed which is made possible due spectacular improvements in Russian rocket
fuel technology over the last 20+ years. Any aircraft carrying the Kinzhal can only give it an initial velocity equal to the speed of
the aircraft. The Mig-31 does not fly that fast.
Of course there is some benefit from air launch, but nowhere near 300%. Putting the Kinzhal on a jet saves the cost of having
a booster stage and also extends the range of the missile by including the range of the flying launcher. Also, having an air launcher
allows for deployment flexibility since moving land launchers around is much slower and rather pointless.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6163
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Isos wrote:They will have a couple of douzens of mig-31 upgraded for kinzhal. If they are used in the north to watch for cruise missiles and russian navy detects a carrier somewhere in the mediteranean then a su-57 can launch it if they have a su-57 somewhere near and unused.
unused is the key word. I dotn see them unused in case of ny conflict. That's why I doubt there is ny sense to use Su-57 not s ir usperiority fighter but to tsks for ncl vition. Where Su-30SM can do the job with airborne Kinzh/GZUR.
Isos wrote: The best thing to do however is using naval aviation with this missile and not the air force. The targeting and reaction time during a war should be much better than with ai force that has already a job to do. And the navy has also some mig-31.
yup recently around Anadndyr the whole regiment (aFaIK 36 fighters)
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6163
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LMFS wrote:
As said, every long range missile will be too big to be carried in the bays, be it Kinzhal, a aero-launched version of Zirkon, GZUR or whatever. So it makes sense to adapt Su-57 to carry them, it seems pretty obvious to me...
external missiles mount? if for GZURs Then you loose stealth factor. The job that can do either cheaper Su-30SM, or Tu-22M3M or faster, higher ceiling MiG-41/31 you assign to an air superiority fighter?
I might be wrong but I dotn see it productive idea
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6163
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Hole wrote:
GarryB- Posts : 40473
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-I dont question your technical arguments. My point was however - why to do it?!
For whatever reason the Su-57 is supposed to be multirole and able to engage surface targets.... they will already be adapting it to carry and launch Zircon and Brahmos II and Onyx and other outsized weapons... it should not be that hard to also adapt it to this as well.
BTW successful adaptation with a semi recessed launch position could improve setups for other larger missiles and also allow more than four missiles to be carried by Tu-22M3M aircraft too.
Su-57 is fighter built in relatively small numbers. Kinzhal is heavy and cumbersome to adapt. There are many Kinzhal carriers already. Su-57 should better to cover carriers if needed.
There will come a point where its performance means it wont always get through... in which case having the ability to get it out there in huge numbers becomes more important.
It might never be used operationally... but having the option to use it makes the Su-57 more flexible and more capable....
GZUR II will have better range and supposedly lover weight (GZUR 1 ~ 1,500kg).
Agreed Kinzhal is a knee jerk weapon created on the fly with what was available at the time. Gzur on the other hand is optimised for internal carriage and looks rather good from almost any angle....
Well Zircon from a naval/ground launcher will have 1000km range, and a full sized air-launched version would likely have 4000km range (when you factor in the 4 fold increase of Iskander-M's range, from 500km to 2000km with Kinzhal), so a smaller version that could fit in the bays could still maintain a 1000-15000km range, a bay launched version of Kinzhal could have 1000km range.
I suspect the Kinzhal is a stopgap missile and likely wont be developed much further... though with the end of the INF treaty they might build longer ranged Iskanders which would translate directly to new longer ranged Kinzhals without too much work...
Honestly, I think the Americans will get a new president in 2020 and even if they don't when the Americans work out they are not better off, but worse off with all the new Russian hypersonic missiles entering service they will beg for a new deal... just not publicly.
I appreciate what you are saying GD, but the Su-57 is not just a 5th gen fighter... it is also a SEAD and strike aircraft too... and many of the weapons it is supposed to carry can only be carried externally... so they need to develop that capacity anyway...
Isos- Posts : 11591
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unused is the key word. I dotn see them unused in case of ny conflict. That's why I doubt there is ny sense to use Su-57 not s ir usperiority fighter but to tsks for ncl vition. Where Su-30SM can do the job with airborne Kinzh/GZUR.
In case of war russia can't move all its air force in the same place. Mig-31 are suppose to cover the north against bombers and missiles. You will always have some su-57 in the south or the far east so they can do the job against carriers.
A war against US/nato would be on the all western and northern borders as well as on the east. And mig 31 are keeping safe the north so you need other carriers for kinzhal.
But using su-30/34 as launcher woukd be more usefull than su-57.
Hole- Posts : 11106
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Instead of two Onyx under the wings one Kinzahl under the belly. Should be no great problem. Stealth will be reduced but this will be also no problem because of the stand-off range of the Kinzahl. The Su-57 will also be used in non-stealthy missions, therefore it got the underwing hardpoints. In theory it could even be used with S-8 or S-13 rockets against ground targets.
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LMFS wrote:Well, I am not that optimistic regarding weapons compatible with the bays. For instance Kh-59Mk2 was something like 300 km range and it is subsonic.magnumcromagnon wrote:Well Zircon from a naval/ground launcher will have 1000km range, and a full sized air-launched version would likely have 4000km range (when you factor in the 4 fold increase of Iskander-M's range, from 500km to 2000km with Kinzhal), so a smaller version that could fit in the bays could still maintain a 1000-15000km range, a bay launched version of Kinzhal could have 1000km range.
The export version of kh-59MK2 has a range of 290 km...the range of the Russian version Will be much more, 1000km? More?
https://www.russiadefence.net/t6570p25-russian-tactical-air-to-surface-missiles-asm#116854
Post 47 from George1
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6163
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GarryB wrote: For whatever reason the Su-57 is supposed to be multirole and able to engage surface targets.... they will already be adapting it to carry and launch Zircon and Brahmos II and Onyx and other outsized weapons... it should not be that hard to also adapt it to this as well.
BTW successful adaptation with a semi recessed launch position could improve setups for other larger missiles and also allow more than four missiles to be carried by Tu-22M3M aircraft too.
+++
It might never be used operationally... but having the option to use it makes the Su-57 more flexible and more capable....
+++
Agreed Kinzhal is a knee jerk weapon created on the fly with what was available at the time. Gzur on the other hand is optimised for internal carriage and looks rather good from almost any angle....
Kh-32 is great missile yet it is gonna be rendered obsolete by Kinzhal.
Now GZUR was planned before Kizhal, it has longer range, its airborne only and lighter. It is unified with Ru-22M3M internal bays.
I bet on that.
GB wrote: I appreciate what you are saying GD, but the Su-57 is not just a 5th gen fighter... it is also a SEAD and strike aircraft too... and many of the weapons it is supposed to carry can only be carried externally... so they need to develop that capacity anyway...
Let me remain by my opinion. Yes, Su-57n can fly trike missions but why with heavy external load making it not stealthy? not stealth with external heavy ammo why to use it? you got drones, MiG-41, PAK-DAs who do same job just better.