Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5

Isos wrote:

In case of war russia can't move all its air force in the same place. Mig-31 are suppose to cover the north against bombers and missiles. You will always have some su-57 in the south or the far east so they can do the job against carriers.

36 Tu-22 + 12-24 MiG-31ks looks IMHO like more then enough to keeping CSGs t by form any direction.

Isos wrote: But using su-30/34  as launcher would be more usefull than su-57.

Glad we agree on that

GunshipDemocracy wrote:external missiles mount? if for GZURs Then  you loose stealth factor. The job that can do either cheaper Su-30SM, or Tu-22M3M or faster, higher ceiling MiG-41/31 you assign to an air superiority fighter?

I might be wrong but I dotn see it productive idea

Su-57 is the future multi-role plane of VVS, but the role of big missile carrier is to be done by all other planes except it? Should Russia keep operating old planes for the next 40 years only for that? Interesting...

Besides:

--> Who says MiG-41 is not going to have weapons bays with the same issues for carriage of oversized ordnance than Su-57? And when will it be available?
--> Who cares about stealth of the carrier when it is going to be 1000+ km away from the target?
--> Su-30SM cannot carry that type of ordnance by now.

Best Russia can do is to unify as many roles as they can in the Su-57, which is the only existing and future-proof multi-role fighter for air force and also for the navy, both land and carrier based.

kvs wrote: Putting the Kinzhal on a jet saves the cost of having a booster stage and also extends the range of the missile by including the range of the flying launcher. Also, having an air launcher
allows for deployment flexibility since moving land launchers around is much slower and rather pointless.

Before withdrawing from INF air launch was the best option, but it brought big restrictions to the size of the weapons. Now nothing impedes Russia from creating missiles analogous to Chinese DF-26 to take care of the same roles, with much longer ranges and much shorter flight times.

GarryB wrote:Honestly, I think the Americans will get a new president in 2020 and even if they don't when the Americans work out they are not better off, but worse off with all the new Russian hypersonic missiles entering service they will beg for a new deal... just not publicly.

Agree, I think Russians are already enjoying to prove US how wrong they were by retreating from INF. US got the lessons of history completely wrong and repeating what they think brought the Soviet Union on its knees is only going to bankrupt themselves IMHO...

I appreciate what you are saying GD, but the Su-57 is not just a 5th gen fighter... it is also a SEAD and strike aircraft too... and many of the weapons it is supposed to carry can only be carried externally... so they need to develop that capacity anyway...

Exactly

Hole wrote:Instead of two Onyx under the wings one Kinzahl under the belly.

Two Onyx? That is a huge missile, a specially developed, lighter version of Brahmos that can only be carried ventrally by Su-30 with many restrictions and after many modifications. UKSK sized missile after all...

dino00 wrote:The export version of kh-59MK2 has a range of 290 km...the range of the Russian version Will be much more, 1000km? More?

https://www.russiadefence.net/t6570p25-russian-tactical-air-to-surface-missiles-asm#116854
Post 47 from George1

True, but I see no data there about the range of the domestic version. Warhead is massive in that missile, I doubt it can reach more than 500 km, but if anybody has more info it would be welcome[/quote]

LMFS wrote:
Su-57 is the future multi-role plane of VVS,

then it would need to be mass produced, not that anything is indicting that in next 10-15 years, then Kizhal unlikely is gonna remain in service. I see it this way:

Kh-32 (4Ma, 1000km, 6tons) -> Kinzhal (10Ma, 1,300km, 4,5tons) ->( Gzur I (1,500km, >2000kg, 8Ma ( GZUR II - 12-14Ma))

Tu-22M3M
.Kh-32................... 2-3
Kinzhal...................4
GZUR.....................6.(10 ifunder wings pylons)

LMFS wrote:but the role of big missile carrier is to be done by all other planes except it? Should Russia keep operating old planes for the next 40 years only for that? Interesting...

in 40 years Su-57 if not withdrawn from service you mean? then again no kizhal then




:

LMFS wrote:
--> Who says MiG-41 is not going to have weapons bays with the same issues for carriage of oversized ordnance than Su-57? And when will it be available?

A) till 2027 there is no really missive Su-57 procurement foreseen, unless I've missed something. Yet MiG-31 will be available, Tu-22M3M too . For 10-15 years.


B) MiG-41 due to its requested characteristics will be bigger, almost 2x faster and flying much higher higher i.e. better suited for tossing missiles.


C) It is gonna be available in next 10-15 years, so when MiG-31/Tu-22-M3M are gonna be phased out

LMFS wrote:--> Who cares about stealth of the carrier when it is going to be 1000+ km away from the target?

Then again why not non-stealth carrier?

LMFS wrote:--> Su-30SM cannot carry that type of ordnance by now.

cannot carry what? Kalibrs? it cn ,

Kinzhal will die with MiG-31 / Tu-22m3M

LMFS wrote: Best Russia can do is to unify as many roles as they can in the Su-57, which is the only existing and future-proof multi-role fighter for air force and also for the navy, both land and carrier based.

Interesting logic, Russians start officially whole program for VSTOL, design name PAK KA only to add a hook for arresting gear?

Russia is ready to resume work with India on the fifth-generation fighter

BANGALORE (India), Feb. 22 - RIA Novosti . Russia is ready to continue working with India on the fifth-generation fighter aircraft, taking into account developments on the Su-57, Anatoly Punchuk, deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC), told RIA Novosti.
"The decision to temporarily suspend this project was made by India. Russia is still open for cooperation. Many Indian specialists and experts argue that the fifth generation plane of India is necessary. The format in which this project was carried out is a joint development with equal rights of the parties to the result of intellectual property , unique, "- said Punchuk during the exhibition Aero India 2019.

https://ria.ru/20190222/1551220707.html

LMFS wrote:Now nothing impedes Russia from creating missiles analogous to Chinese DF-26 to take care of the same roles, with much longer ranges and much shorter flight times.

It was created & tested some time go, it is called RS-26 Rubezh

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

LMFS wrote:
Su-57 is the future multi-role plane of VVS,

then it would need to be mass produced, not that anything is indicting that in next 10-15 years, then Kizhal unlikely is gonna  remain  in service. I see it this way:

Kh-32 (4Ma, 1000km, 6tons) -> Kinzhal (10Ma, 1,300km, 4,5tons) ->( Gzur I (1,500km, >2000kg, 8Ma ( GZUR II - 12-14Ma))

Tu-22M3M
.Kh-32................... 2-3
Kinzhal...................4
GZUR.....................6.(10 ifunder wings pylons)

I suspect the Kh-32 will be equipping the Tu-22M3Ms while the Kinzhal will be reserved for the MiG-31Ks. The Kh-32 has already started to be procured and equipped into regiments as of 2016.

They did mention that the Tu-22M3Ms will be made compatible with the Kinzhal as well, but as with the Su-57 - the option is there, and the option is nice, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it will be employed

The Kh-32 is heavier compared to the Kinzhal while having a shorter range and lower speed. I'm not precisely sure of its advantage vs. the Kinzhal, but it is a fully-fledged cruise missile rather than a rocket, and stays powered throughout its flight, so could potentially offer more flexibility against trickier targets.

Kh-32 has a much larger warhead.

In the past the russian air force and navy always had different anti-ship or cruise missiles with different methods of getting to the target: flight path, speed, guidance and so on. It worked well. Why change it?

Kh-32 is great missile yet it is gonna be rendered obsolete by Kinzhal.
Now GZUR was planned before Kizhal, it has longer range, its airborne only and lighter. It is unified with Ru-22M3M internal bays.
I bet on that.

On paper I would say the same, but on paper I would have said the Kh-22M with its nasty fuel and the fact that only three can be carried on a Tu-22M3 would have limited its use because the Kh-15 has similar range and better speed and was solid fuelled rocket that didn't have to be fuelled up before loading it onto the aircraft.

The Kh-15 could be carried internally and also on four external weapon points to offer ten missiles as a payload... but it was withdrawn first, while the Kh-22M was upgraded to the Kh-32.

I suspect the Gzur is the replacement for the Kh-15...

Yes, Su-57n can fly trike missions but why with heavy external load making it not stealthy? not stealth with external heavy ammo why to use it? you got drones, MiG-41, PAK-DAs who do same job just better.

They could configure the design so the aircraft operates with one set of weapon bay doors is open while carrying outsized loads, but there is no reason why that weapon bay needs to be empty either the large externally carried weapon might not be that far recessed into the bay that it has to be empty... it could be full with a standard weapon load of AAMs... meaning once the external missile is launched the bay can close and the aircraft can operate with a full internal weapon load with no reduction in stealth at all...

In fact it could carry external pods containing extra fuel and extra weapons in a semi conformal weapon pod that could be carried attached to a stealthy attachment to the under engine pylon positions and when it is empty it can be released freeing up the belly mounted weapon bays and restoring stealth levels... it could carry 4,000 litres of fuel and 12 ejector launchers for R-77 type and 9M100 AAMs in a mixed load... or perhaps four R-37M missiles as they can be launched when the targets are at extended range so the extra RCS of the conformal belly pod wont matter so much then... and so full AB you can burn up those 4 tons of extra fuel and launch four long range AAM and then dump the conformal pod and you are full fuel and fully armed ready for a dogfight or to hunt down cruise missiles...

True, but I see no data there about the range of the domestic version. Warhead is massive in that missile, I doubt it can reach more than 500 km, but if anybody has more info it would be welcome

My understanding of the Kh-59 family... NATO codename is AS-13 and AS-18 was that the first one had a range of about 130km and the second double that at about 250km... but the limits were basically the datalink guidance... a datalink pod was carried by the launch aircraft and as the missile neared its target it sent back video of the target so the weapon officer used a joystick to move a cursor onto the target and pushed a button and the missile guided itself onto that target...

I rather suspect the domestic model has improve in range, but it was never a strategic missile... only tactical... I doubt it would be used at 1,000km... even 500km would probably be a bit far IMHO.

AS-13 is the NATO name for the Kh-59, which is fitted with a solid-fuel rocket motor and has a range of 40km.


AS-18 is the NATO name for the K-59M, which is fitted with a turbofan and has a range of 115km.


The Kh-59 was further developed into the Kh-59M2 with some updated equipment and the Kh-59M2A (Kh59MK) with an active radar seeker and improved range to 285 km.

Later the Kh-59MK2 was developed with a range of 290km and the guidance system of the Kh-555, which was further modified to a boxy shape to fit into the weapons bays of the Su-57.


Also a leading figure from the company that develops the Kh-50 stated that they are working on a whole family of tactical cruise missiles with ranges from 500 to 2.000km.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

LMFS wrote:
Su-57 is the future multi-role plane of VVS,

then it would need to be mass produced, not that anything is indicting that in next 10-15 years, then Kizhal unlikely is gonna  remain  in service.

Either you agree Su-57 is the future of VVS or not. If it is, it makes sense that it carries long range, oversized weapons to attack high value targets at long ranges. It doesn't really matter if Kinzhal remains in service or not.

Kh-32 (4Ma, 1000km, 6tons) -> Kinzhal (10Ma, 1,300km, 4,5tons) ->( Gzur I (1,500km, >2000kg, 8Ma ( GZUR II - 12-14Ma))

Tu-22M3M
.Kh-32................... 2-3
Kinzhal...................4
GZUR.....................6.(10 ifunder wings pylons)

Agree with Hole here. There have been and IMO will continue existing different weapons with different characteristics for roughly the same applications, in order to make the defence against them more difficult and reduce the risk of knowledge being leaked / countermeasures being developed that neuter them.

Regarding the technical data you mention, most are far from being confirmed (some of the missiles are not even developed). For instance Zirkon was supposed to be 6 M, 600 km and now Putin says it is 9 M, >1000 km. Add to it the different warheads. So not as clear cut to me as you put it.

A) till 2027 there is no really missive Su-57 procurement foreseen, unless I've missed something. Yet MiG-31 will be  available, Tu-22M3M too  . For 10-15 years.

All we know is there are plans to acquire 15 Su-57 short term. I don't have a copy of the state armament program at home so I don't know what will be ordered until 2027.

B) MiG-41 due to its requested characteristics   will be bigger,  almost 2x faster and flying much higher higher i.e.  better suited for tossing missiles.

Not even the preliminary design approved as far as I know.

LMFS wrote:--> Su-30SM cannot carry that type of ordnance by now.

cannot carry what? Kalibrs? it cn ,

Sorry? Where have you seen that?

Interesting logic, Russians start officially  whole program for VSTOL, design name PAK KA only to add a hook for arresting gear?      

The statements above are a bit far fetched as far as I know. But they want a naval fighter and they have first to review the alternatives in depth, before producing the plane. In any case as discussed previously, in naval environment an air launched weapon of long range is of great value against the US efforts to increase the defence radius of their CSGs

GarryB wrote:
They could configure the design so the aircraft operates with one set of weapon bay doors is open while carrying outsized loads, but there is no reason why that weapon bay needs to be empty either the large externally carried weapon might not be that far recessed into the bay that it has to be empty... it could be full with a standard weapon load of AAMs... meaning once the external missile is launched the bay can close and the aircraft can operate with a full internal weapon load with no reduction in stealth at all...

Long missiles cannot be carried semi-recessed as far as I see it, due to the wall between the two bays. They would need to be carried centred in the fuselage due to CoG issues I think. I assume the bays would need to be empty of weapons in order to have the suspension points for the external missiles. But this is wild speculation of course, we need to wait.

Hole wrote:Later the Kh-59MK2 was developed with a range of 290km and the guidance system of the Kh-555, which was further modified to a boxy shape to fit into the weapons bays of the Su-57.
[.

The export version.

Found this in UAC website has interview with PAK-FA test pilot , What does he say ?

https://uacrussia.ru/dl.php?f=15430

Pg 44

LMFS wrote:[
Either you agree Su-57 is the future of VVS or not. If it is, it makes sense that it carries long range, oversized weapons to attack high value targets at long ranges. It doesn't really matter if Kinzhal remains in service or not.

I thought were talking Kinzhal, if new long range missiles then agreed 100%


quote="LMFS"] Regarding the technical data you mention, most are far from being confirmed (some of the missiles are not even developed). For instance Zirkon was supposed to be 6 M, 600 km and now Putin says it is 9 M, >1000 km. Add to it the different warheads. So not as clear cut to me as you put it. [/quote]

Which data Kh-32? Kinzhl? or requirements for GZUR? I would not expect exact characteristics for new missile.

Im not sure if I understand you correctly - so Kh-32 is going to be used in the same time as Kiznhl is nd GZUR will be?

LMFS wrote:

A) till 2027 there is no really missive Su-57 procurement foreseen, unless I've missed something. Yet MiG-31 will be  available, Tu-22M3M too  . For 10-15 years.

All we know is there are plans to acquire 15 Su-57 short term. I don't have a copy of the state armament program at home so I don't know what will be ordered until 2027.

but we do know ~ 150 MiG-31s + 30 Tu-30M3Ms,

LMFS wrote:

B) MiG-41 due to its requested characteristics   will be bigger,  almost 2x faster and flying much higher higher i.e.  better suited for tossing missiles.

Not even the preliminary design approved as far as I know.

[/quote]

so would you suggest it wont exist ?

LMFS wrote:

LMFS wrote:--> Su-30SM cannot carry that type of ordnance by now.

cannot carry what? Kalibrs? it cn ,

Sorry? Where have you seen that?

Sorry I've rechecked Yakobovitch claims on Sukhoi www. No info there only that Su-35 can take up to 6x Kh35/Kh-31.

LMFS wrote:

Interesting logic, Russians start officially  whole program for VSTOL, design name PAK KA only to add a hook for arresting gear?      

The statements above are a bit far fetched as far as I know. But they want a naval fighter and they have first to review the alternatives in depth, before producing the plane. In any case as discussed previously, in naval environment an air launched weapon of long range is of great value against the US efforts to increase the defence radius of their CSGs

why would I contest that? The only what I dont see in Kizhl for deck fighters

Austin wrote:Found this in UAC website has interview with PAK-FA test pilot , What does he say ?

https://uacrussia.ru/dl.php?f=15430

Pg 44

]



Each generation of aircraft becomes
all the more perfect. Expanding
their performance
and combat capabilities. Modern
machines are the hardest
multifunctional complexes.
Do the possibilities expand
for aerobatics? What are the new tricks
appear in the arsenal of pilots in the technique
air combat on fighters
fifth generation? Will there be in the future
new aerobatics? In what
feature and beauty of group
aerobatics? How are shooting
in the air, and how is it done beautifully?
In the sky over Zhukovsky planes twist
aerobatics, demonstrating the "barrel",
"Bell" or "cobra", pass on small
altitudes and exit at critical angles
attacks. For a pilot, this is normal flight,
and the audience is breathtaking
engine noise, rapid expansion
and virtuoso spins.
The laws of super-maneuverability
Our first interlocutor - Sergey Bogdan,
Hero of the Russian Federation, Honored
test pilot of the Russian Federation, flight chief
service experimental design bureau.
BY. Sukhoi (OKB Sukhoi). During his flight
career Sergey Leonidovich mastered 59 types
and modifications of the aircraft, made a test landing on the aircraft carrier "Admiral
navy of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov ". First
The Su-35 and the fifth-generation T-50 fighter, which then
assigned index Su-57.
- how much pilotage fighter fifth
generation is different from flying around on others
"Sukhovsky" aircraft?
- Aircraft of the OKB Sukhoi are distinguished by high
maneuverability. They are created to gain air superiority. A revolutionary leap in terms of sustainability
and aircraft controllability, especially when
conducting air combat, was committed
thanks to controlled thrust vectoring. Such
engines were installed on airplanes
Su-30 generation 4+. A completely new piloting quality was achieved when
the plane goes to super-maneuverability modes, along with obtaining high performance in angular rotational speeds.
Aircraft Su-35 generation 4 ++ and T-50
fifth generation on their aerobatic
characteristics are close to the aircraft
driven vector thrust but they have
more advanced control system
and more powerful engines. The fact is that
in super maneuverability mode along with obtaining high angular performance
rotational speeds, the aircraft is in the process
maneuvering there is a very large frontal resistance and occurs
vigorous inhibition. When you go out
this mode to continue the fight and leave
from the attack, the aircraft must accelerate. More powerful engines in the Su-35 and T-50
provide better acceleration when
exit from super maneuverability modes,

AS-18 is the NATO name for the K-59M, which is fitted with a turbofan and has a range of 115km.

The original had a rocket propulsion system which launched the missile forward into the front view of the launch aircraft rapidly.

The Kh-59M used a turbojet engine to extend range but had a rocket booster to push the missile out to 1km in front of the launch aircraft as rapidly as possible so the launch aircraft could get a datalink connection via its datalink pod.

Once the link was established the launch aircraft could turn around and fly away from the target as the guidance pod had front and rear facing antenna that it could switch between with a locked missile connection.

When the missile got to 10km or so of the target area it sent back a video image of what it could see so a precise aim at the target could be achieved by the launch aircraft.

On later missiles the solid rocket booster was removed and extra fuel added to extend flight range, but it was the 140km range datalink that restricted the effective range of the Kh-59M...

Long missiles cannot be carried semi-recessed as far as I see it, due to the wall between the two bays. They would need to be carried centred in the fuselage due to CoG issues I think. I assume the bays would need to be empty of weapons in order to have the suspension points for the external missiles. But this is wild speculation of course, we need to wait.

There are likely going to be a wide variety of weapons that are carried this way, and the Kinzhal, unlike most Onyx/Brahmos/Yakhont like weapons is roughly cone shaped rather than cigar shaped.

I am not suggesting a fully recessed arrangement like the Tu-22M3 uses for the Kh-22M... just fitting them against the belly of the aircraft with one set of bay doors open or with a piece open to allow a support pylon to reach the missile for control and data communication.

Some sort of downward ejection system built in to the pylon would ensure safe and easy weapon separation operationally with the small projecting portion of the weapon pylon ejected with the missile to allow the bay doors to fully close and also open to deliver their payload too.

Careful design to allow the weapon to be carried close to the body of the aircraft with minimal drag and RCS, while when released allowing full normal operation of the aircraft with normal levels of stealth.

While carried the weapon would prevent the missiles in the two main belly bays from being used but the two internal wing mounted missiles should be available for use if needed.

Once fired the belly bays would be free for use and of course within reason the four wing pylons and two engine bay pylons should also be free if stealth is no long critical... and more missiles thought worth while.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:I thought were talking   Kinzhal, if new long range missiles then agreed 100%

Im not sure if I understand you correctly - so Kh-32 is going to be used in the same time as Kiznhl is nd GZUR will be?  

It may be. Look how many anti ship missiles Russia has. Even considering some consolidation of the stocks would be beneficial, it is very probable that in future Russia will not rely just in one missile, technology or manufacturer.

so would you suggest it wont exist ?

 
No, just saying we know nothing about it. Characteristics are not fixed, layout not decided, role not 100% defined, schedule uncertain. It does not help to reach conclusions to count on so vague promises, at least in my opinion.

Sorry I've rechecked Yakobovitch claims on Sukhoi www.  No info there only that Su-35 can take up to 6x Kh35/Kh-31.

I recall distinctly that Su-30MKI needed serious modifications to carry a lighter air-launched version of the Brahmos, Russia did not do anything like that by now.

why would  I contest that? The only what I dont see in Kizhl for  deck fighters

When we originally discussed this, a potential deployment to Venezuela may look a bit far fetched. Now, what would happen if tomorrow US decides to finally steamroll Venezuela with help of their fleet? Would not be useful to have a carrier with powerful fighters / anti ship missiles in the area for deterrence? RuN would be massively outnumbered in such scenario so would need real advantages in range and capabilities to be of any value instead of a liability. It is never going to be an ideal scenario but sometimes you are forced to do difficult choices and then you want to have all your military capabilities at 100%. Not to ensure you are untouchable but to ensure at least you can change their cost/benefits balance.

Look how many anti ship missiles Russia has. Even considering some consolidation of the stocks would be beneficial, it is very probable that in future Russia will not rely just in one missile, technology or manufacturer.

They have at least one missile for every type of flight possible : sea skiming subsonic, sea skiming supersonic, sea skiming sub then super sonic, high flying kh-22 dive attack supersonic, anti radar kh-31supersonic, bm launched and modified that goes in space then dives on the target (kinzhal), now hypersonic zirkon, ultra long range heavy torpedoes 650mm 100km range ...

They will launch all that and good luck dealing with them to any ship being targeted.

Best ABM air def can't intercept some of them like the low flying subsonic kh-35 whike normal air defence can't intercept hypersonic ones.

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:I thought were talking   Kinzhal, if new long range missiles then agreed 100%

 

perhaps in order not to shock you I withdraw my agreement?

LMFS wrote:

Im not sure if I understand you correctly - so Kh-32 is going to be used in the same time as Kiznhl is nd GZUR will be?  

It may be. Look how many anti ship missiles Russia has. Even considering some consolidation of the stocks would be beneficial, it is very probable that in future Russia will not rely just in one missile, technology or manufacturer.

how I see it as an evolution very large,cumbersome Kh-22 -> Kh-32 -> Kinzhal -> light powerful long range GZUR/Zircon

Same as Kh-22 made Ks-15 obsolete,every new design renders old obsolete. It is like using PPSh-41 together with AK , Idont see it .

LMFS wrote:

so would you suggest it wont exist ?

 
No, just saying we know nothing about it. Characteristics are not fixed, layout not decided, role not 100% defined, schedule uncertain. It does not help to reach conclusions to count on so vague promises, at least in my opinion.

Work is definitely on, simply because MiG-31 life is not forever. Borisov already bounced back one MiG design. Looks like it was based on MiG-301.

but yes there will be new interceptor to work in "ner space, with 4,5-5000km/h speed. Such prmeters re much better to toss any missile then u-57.

LMFS wrote: Now, what would happen if tomorrow US decides to finally steamroll Venezuela with help of their fleet? Would not be useful to have a carrier with powerful fighters / anti ship missiles in the area for deterrence? RuN would be massively outnumbered in such scenario so would need real advantages in range and capabilities to be of any value instead of a liability. It is never going to be an ideal scenario but sometimes you are forced to do difficult choices and then you want to have all your military capabilities at 100%. Not to ensure you are untouchable but to ensure at least you can change their cost/benefits balance.

so how many fighters would you need to stop WHOLE USAF + 2-3 CSGs? Yo can get the whole RuF and still wont be even close.
No, you dont need anything special here. Presence is most important. Nobody dares to attack Russian ship/fighter, not because this ship cannot be sunk but because of Avangards regiment in Chukotkta. Ready to say hello to Fashnigton within 20-25mins. .



Ivdontv sew there needs for hundreds of fighters. Especially when you dotn have them enough at home

BTW It would be soooo sweet if those "sunken" S-400 finally popped up in Caracas

Isos wrote:

They have at least one missile for every type of flight possible : sea skiming subsonic, sea skiming supersonic, sea skiming sub then super sonic, high flying kh-22 dive attack supersonic, anti radar kh-31supersonic, bm launched and modified that goes in space then dives on the target (kinzhal), now hypersonic zirkon, ultra long range heavy torpedoes 650mm 100km range ...

They will launch all that and good luck dealing with them to any ship being targeted.

Best ABM air def can't intercept some of them like the low flying subsonic kh-35 whike normal air defence can't intercept hypersonic ones.

not good strategy IMHO. Using all obsolete missiles just to think perhaps something happens? Putting extra strain on logistics, technical staff?

Kh22/as-15 re out. Kh-32 is unlikely to be massively built simply because kiznhal does the same job has loner range and 2xhigher.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Isos wrote:

They have at least one missile for every type of flight possible : sea skiming subsonic, sea skiming supersonic, sea skiming sub then super sonic, high flying kh-22 dive attack supersonic, anti radar kh-31supersonic, bm launched and modified that goes in space then dives on the target (kinzhal), now hypersonic zirkon, ultra long range heavy torpedoes 650mm 100km range ...

They will launch all that and good luck dealing with them to any ship being targeted.

Best ABM air def can't intercept some of them like the low flying subsonic kh-35 whike normal air defence can't intercept hypersonic ones.

not good strategy IMHO. Using all obsolete missiles just to think perhaps something happens? Putting extra strain on logistics, technical  staff?

Kh22/as-15 re out. Kh-32 is unlikely to be massively built simply because kiznhal does the same job has loner range and  2xhigher.

What obsolate missiles are you talking about ? Kh-22 was made to destroy the same carriers that US operates today. Kh-32 is still better.

Kalibr with trrminal superonic flight is really hard to destroy because it accelerate when the ships will try to destroy it. Tracking a missile that is accelerating from mach 0.7 to mach 3 is something very hard. With a constant speed you cab easily calculate its trajectory, but if it spends all the distance from detection to hit accelerating then its an other story.

Kh-35 is not the best they have but a very small target that flies very low where the sea jamm the radar from the anti air missiles naturally.

Oniks are mach 3 missiles. 16 flying toward any ship means at least one will hit. Most poeple think if a ship can see something it can intercept it which is wrong. Most of ir defence systems need to send more than one missile to intercept a missile flying subsonic let alone a supersonic or hypersonic one. Even syrian buk m2 more missile than there was targets and according to russian MoD...


Kh-32 all but outdated and is not supposed to be replace by kinzhal. We don't even know uf kinzhal uses a radar or a optical targeting system like iskander. And tu-22M are not able to carry kinzhal.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:how  I see it as  an evolution very large,cumbersome Kh-22 -> Kh-32 -> Kinzhal -> light powerful long range GZUR/Zircon

My guess is if GZUR follows what we expect, it will allow Tu-22M3M to perform anti-ship role with only internal load, which is very beneficial to range, speed and RCS. But still, Kh-32 is a modern missile and the size is not for nothing, it is expected to be extremely lethal and resistant to jamming and countermeasures. Apart from being capable of sending a big displacement ship to the bottom, which not every other missile can do. Better having and not needing that the other way around.

Work is definitely on, simply because MiG-31 life is not forever. Borisov already bounced back one MiG design.        Looks like it was based on MiG-301.

but yes there will be new interceptor to work in "ner space, with 4,5-5000km/h speed. Such prmeters re much better to toss any missile then u-57.

We will see.... in 15 years or so

so how many fighters would you need to stop WHOLE USAF + 2-3 CSGs?  Yo can get the whole RuF and still wont be even close.
No, you dont need anything special here. Presence is most important. Nobody dares to attack Russian ship/fighter, not because this ship cannot be sunk but because  of Avangards regiment in Chukotkta. Ready to  say hello to Fashnigton within  20-25mins. .

Not all USAF of course but 2 or 3 CSGs would be perfectly possible due to Washington getting mad at a Russian deployment at their pond. Again, I don't think you can do this kind of mission just relying on strategic deterrence, it is a too weak bluff that can be called out any time, leaving you no other option that doing what? Ending the world over Venezuela?! Nobody would do that and your opponent knows it. You need a minimum conventional deterrence in theatre. Send some Tu-22M3 (too bad they don't have IFR!) and a potent fleet with a clearly defensive posture, and everybody will be friends with each other.

BTW It would be soooo sweet if those "sunken" S-400 finally popped up in Caracas      

Better some nukes like those that Israel got out of the blue... these things happen, sometimes to Russian allies too  

First use Kinzhals against Ticonderogas/Burkes/Zumwalts( ) and then Kh-32 against carriers.

Same as Kh-22 made Ks-15 obsolete,every new design renders old obsolete. It is like using PPSh-41 together with AK , Idont see it .

Would otherwise agree with your logic but in this case you are wrong... the Kh-22M was replaced by the Kh-32 which is an evolution of the Kh-22M, while the Kh-15 was withdrawn from service (because there was only a nuclear armed version and no conventionally armed model.)

The Kh-22M has two rocket motors and one big internal fuel supply... there is a powerful high energy rocket motor and a low energy cruise rocket motor and the range of the missile can be determined by which motor is used and how.

Normally the high power rocket motor is used at launch and to climb to altitudes of 40km where that motor is shut down and the cruise motor starts up to maintain speed and altitude... when it gets closer to the target the high energy rocket motor starts up against and accelerates the missile to about mach 2.5 or so and then it dives onto its target... 40km below and normally reaches speeds of mach 3-3.5 when it hits the target... obviously at sea level or thereabouts.

The Kh-32 has improved higher energy fuel and two new rocket motors that are respectively more powerful and more fuel efficient so range and speed are both increased but they both basically operate the same way... and both need to be fuelled up after being loaded onto the aircraft...

Work is definitely on, simply because MiG-31 life is not forever. Borisov already bounced back one MiG design. respekt respekt respekt Looks like it was based on MiG-301.

but yes there will be new interceptor to work in "ner space, with 4,5-5000km/h speed. Such prmeters re much better to toss any missile then u-57.

The speed and altitude performance of the MiG-31 makes it an ideal choice for launching... whether it is satellites or long range missiles.

The extra speed and altitude and likely increased payload capacity of the MiG-41 replacement should make it even better for the role... I would expect being able to launch large heavy long range missiles and indeed satellite payloads or anti satellite weapons would be part of its design requirements too.

But then you could also ask why the Su-57 needs to carry R-37M if the MiG-31s will be better able to deliver it too.

Kh-32 is unlikely to be massively built simply because kiznhal does the same job has loner range and 2xhigher.

If you look at ATGMs the Hokums are armed with ATAKAs as well as Vikhrs and they took quite a while before ordering a batch of Vikhr missiles despite their superior performance because they already have enormous stocks of ATAKAs.

The factories that made Kh-22M will likely make Kh-32s and likely make them in large numbers... liquid fuelled rockets have more flexibility than solid fuelled rockets and solid rocket fuel is expensive... it has to be stable but volatile all at the same time...

First use Kinzhals against Ticonderogas/Burkes/Zumwalts( Laughing ) and then Kh-32 against carriers.

Yes, the AEGIS class cruisers with ABM capacity would be the first priority, and Kh-32 should be capable enough of sinking carriers anyway...

Their speed difference would be useful as all the air defence vessels will be knocked out first with Kinzhals and then the Kh-32s can look at what is not burning and sinking and attack the biggest things left...

Viktor Bondarev: no one could surpass the combat capabilities of the Su-57

https://aviation21.ru/viktor-bondarev-boevye-vozmozhnosti-su-57-poka-prevzojti-nikto-ne-smog/

Chairman of the Federation Council Committee on Defense and Security Viktor Bondarev in an interview with "News»I highly appreciated the technical, flight and combat characteristics of the Su-57 fighter.

According to him, the subtle, highly maneuverable, high-speed Russian fighter of the fifth generation, is able to escape from enemy attacks at supersonic speed without the use of a boost.“Not a single long-range radar detection aircraft is able to detect it, not a single anti-aircraft missile system to shoot down. At the same time, it can hit any targets both on the ground and in the air. On-board electronics helps the pilot to solve several tasks at the same time, to conduct an all-perspective battle with missiles of different range of destruction. The combat capabilities of this aircraft at this stage of industrial development could not be surpassed by anyone, ”said the chairman of the committee of the Federation Council.

He added that on board the Su-57 you can place the most modern precision weapons. Moreover, the current range of combat equipment is not finite. There are great opportunities for modernization, for development, Bondarev concluded.

As for the price, the senator admitted that, although it may be somewhat high, it fully justifies itself.

“We see the fate of countries that have saved on national defense and security. And even if some of them managed to preserve their sovereignty, like Syria, it is difficult to even imagine what fabulous money they have to spend now on rebuilding the country. Much larger than those that they
would have invested in equipping the army with better weapons, ”concluded the senator.

He is trying to get money for su-57 nothing else.

Because according to russian official statements su-57 stealth is on mar with f-22 but also s-400 is able to shot f-22 so s-400 us able to shot su-57.

Don't forget also patriot is not a bad system too. They destroyed a civilian small drone/quadcopter with thus which means it has powerfull radars too.

If su-35 20kW radar can detect a raptor, imagine what a ground based 4x4m 2 MW radar can see ... underestimating enemy can lead to desasters.