Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5

PapaDragon wrote:Russia urged India to prove that they aren't deadbeat leeches

More at 11

/snicker  

You nailed it bud.  Useless wobblers and their absurd games...

magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys....

India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"

Better idea: sell it to Pakistan and let them show India how stealth it is

These Indian media guys are truly a joke. What other options has India for a 5G fighter, exactly?? Are they seriously threatening Russia with buying the F-35?

magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian comedy guys....

India has urged Russia to prove that the su-57 fighter-"invisible"

"By and large, Russia is responsible for what technology could offer India for funding the program"

Bah, its just the same shit, different day. The wobblers propose to put in some money (significantly less than any comparable indigenous R&D effort for 5G, which would in all likelihood FAIL) and they think they will get IP? No.... they get aircraft and the rights for domestic production under license... nothing more. Russia has funded the Su-57 development by itself, and any perceived "delays" are solely due to technical (ie waiting on 5G engines) and operational (the RuAF is still figuring out exactly what it wants and needs to de-fang future US capabilities) issues.

They don't need India, and their offer of a FGFA is simply an attempt at engaging a semi-ally for mutual-gain. It says a lot about the Indians that they throw a hissy fit and pick-up Murican propaganda talking points to disparage Russian miltech. With "friends" like these, who needs adversaries?

So too many chefs?

One Gordon Ramsey is too many... he is a foul mouthed bully who has anger issues.

Perhaps the best thing would be for Sukhoi to sell Turkey the shell structure of the Su-57, or an export version and Turkey can look to fill it with EU parts... with a bit of work and development I think the Europeans might decide to join in, but giving Turkey the control means it is less likely for France or Germany to fuck it up.

I think having Italy there would stop it from being too expensive, which would kill it... they would at least demand an affordable version...

Imagine that... two models of a big aircraft... one expensive with all the bells and whistles and the other cheaper to buy and operate, but still have the potential for the expensive stuff in a later upgrade when it is cheaper... meaning commonality of the fleet...

pretty much a "do it yourself 5G fighter kit" from Sukhoi

Pretty much...

Well, if it was about real cooking adding Italy would be a very smart move!

Would like to see Italy in a European programme where they have seniority and power over France and Germany for a change...

Out of jokes, only thing that's needed would be having a political class with a dorsal spine.

And that is the problem.... Turkey and Italy should be able to weather any US sanctions, but I would not trust France at all... Germany not so much either...

The programme needs to look like it will create something better than F-35 and much much cheaper... which should not really be that hard... even if France is not actually involved as a country they could get Thales stuff and engine stuff from France or the UK... I suspect both would be keen to sell engines and avionics.

They don't need India, and their offer of a FGFA is simply an attempt at engaging a semi-ally for mutual-gain. It says a lot about the Indians that they throw a hissy fit and pick-up Murican propaganda talking points to disparage Russian miltech. With "friends" like these, who needs adversaries?

The point is that F-35 export wont be anything like actually stealthy either... and will be enormously expensive to buy and to operate and they likely wont let them build a single component or change any part of the design...

Perhaps it would be better for Russia India relations if India do buy F-35s... after a few years of that... I am sure the Indians wont point out any problems with the F-35 design... and they will be happy to pay enormous prices just to keep it operational... NOT.

Perhaps what they should do is sell them the aircraft shell and let them fill it... the Su-57MKI Taco Shell export model... Turkey can have the Su-57MKT...

LMFS wrote: But there is a sector of media and apparently defence guys too that makes too much noise and are clearly putting a spoke in India's wheels by creating all kinds of fake speculations against Russian armament. I have no doubt who is their owner, they give themselves away using the same stupid arguments of Western media. Indian society would do well calling them out for what they are.
True!

Also many in the World's media are funded by Western 'democracy' outreach operations.

LMFS wrote:

Turkey already has advanced plans for the TF-X, but actually using the Su-57 airframe instead would be much better. They could unify their fleet in one single true multirole plane at a fraction of the development cost and still have the stuffing of their own liking, pretty much a "do it yourself 5G fighter kit" from Sukhoi

Turkey appear to have got into bed with BAE to develop from scratch a stealth fighter but that is a decade away.

Just think about the impact of a Su-35ET assembled in Turkey/UK with Turkish/British electronics, radar, weapons and engines. Long term replacement for the Tornado, so in comes the Germans and Italians.

We can dream

JohninMK wrote:

LMFS wrote:

Turkey already has advanced plans for the TF-X, but actually using the Su-57 airframe instead would be much better. They could unify their fleet in one single true multirole plane at a fraction of the development cost and still have the stuffing of their own liking, pretty much a "do it yourself 5G fighter kit" from Sukhoi

Turkey appear to have got into bed with BAE to develop from scratch a stealth fighter but that is a decade away.

Just think about the impact of a Su-35ET assembled in Turkey/UK with Turkish/British electronics, radar, weapons and engines. Long term replacement for the Tornado, so in comes the Germans and Italians.

We can dream

Why use a western radar if you can have Irbis or even the export version of N036???

JohninMK wrote:Turkey appear to have got into bed with BAE to develop from scratch a stealth fighter but that is a decade away.

Just think about the impact of a Su-35ET assembled in Turkey/UK with Turkish/British electronics, radar, weapons and engines. Long term replacement for the Tornado, so in comes the Germans and Italians.

We can dream

Yes, the TF-X program is very advanced already, but was started as a ambitious "all domestic" (with foreign partnerships) development considering the F-4s would be substituted with the F-35s and it would substitute the F-16. In fact from what we know it will be almost a heavy fighter, well beyond F-16. But if that was not all done and decided, creating a domestic version of the Su-57 would have been much cheaper and much better. Prototype of TF-X is scheduled for 2024 IIRC, so I guess the program will not be modified seriously now.

As to UK's role... well, take no offence but I am afraid British establishment is pretty much the most rotten and russophobic core of the Global West. They would be the absolute last country on Earth to get Sukhois, would be worth seeing it!

Turkey is BTW apparently pretty much capable of developing almost anything for their planes. They have partnered with the West until now but I guess if the current dispute gets further they will cooperate with Russia, China etc. and keep learning.

Missing posts move to talking bollocks thread:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7216p475-talking-bollocks-thread-2

PAK FA discussion here... anything else there...

Moscow May Offer China, Turkey Export Variant of New Su-57 Fighter - Reports

Despite Beijing having its own fifth-generation fighter, Russia may soon approve sales of the Su-57 to China - and other countries like Turkey, which has shown interest and recently lost access to the US’ F-35 over another Russian weapons deal.

Last week, Rostec director of international cooperation and regional policy Viktor Kladov was quoted by Jane's Defense Weekly as saying that in the coming weeks, Russian President Vladimir Putin may sign off on sales of the Su-57E, an export variant of Sukhoi's new Su-57 stealth fighter.

"China has recently taken delivery of 24 Su-35 aircraft, and in the next two years [China] will make a decision to either procure additional Su-35s, build the Su-35 in China or buy a fifth-generation fighter aircraft, which could be another opportunity for the Su-57E," Kladov said at a press conference at Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition in Malaysia. South Korea, Vietnam, India, Brazil and Turkey have also expressed interest in the plane, Asia Times reported.

Like the Su-35 Flanker-E, the Su-57 is built by Sukhoi, an aircraft design bureau that was rolled into the United Aircraft Corporation in 2006, along with other Russian plane makers. Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said last July that Moscow wouldn't seek mass-production of the Su-57 until Russia's older fourth-generation jets begin to lag behind their competitors.

The first batch of Su-57s ordered included just a dozen jets, four of which were subsequently deployed to Syria. However, Sukhoi still has 10 different prototypes undergoing testing.

"The PAK FA already has an export passport," an anonymous source in the aviation industry told Sputnik Friday, referring to the plane using its internal testing designation. "The government is currently reviewing documents related to renaming the jet from T-50 to Su-57."
Alexander Pekarsh, the director of Sukhoi's Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant, said at a press conference in February that the factory was "working on two aircraft under the contract with the Defense Ministry," one that will be delivered this year and one next year, with the plane entering service with the Russian Aerospace Forces in 2020.

The plane is said to be comparable to the United States' F-22 and F-35 jets, both of which are built by Lockheed Martin. It has supercruise capability, stealth technology, actively phased radar and can conduct air superiority or ground attack missions. However, the Su-57 is purported to be only 40 percent of the cost of Lockheed's offering, weighing in at roughly $40 to $45 million per plane, compared to the American planes that cost well over $100 million, according to The Diplomat.

But the plane may not be up to snuff for Chinese aviators, for a variety of reasons.

Wang Yongqing, chief designer of China's Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute, wrote in Aerospace Knowledge magazine in February that while the Su-57's super-maneuverability and supercruise capabilities were impressive, these had been so emphasized at the expense of its stealth capabilities that it was questionable whether or not the jet could really be called "stealthy."

Xu Guangyu, a senior consultant at the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times Sunday that if Beijing did buy the plane, it would likely do so simply to study other countries' strengths. Shenyang is presently working on the FC-31 or J-31, a fifth-generation stealth fighter with the potential to become China's staple carrier-borne fighter, and Chengdu Aerospace Corporation's J-20 Mighty Dragon has recently joined PLAAF ranks, so Beijing has no pressing need for the Su-57 specifically.

Further, nine of the 10 existing versions of the Su-57 make use of the aging Saturn AL-41F1S engine, which can't provide the plane with the thrust or fuel efficiency it needs, nor the low-observable and thrust vectoring capabilities of newer engines like Saturn's Izdeliye 30, which is still under development, The Diplomat's Franz-Stefan Gady observed Sunday.

Instead, other countries, like India, that don't have a fifth-generation jet in the works might be more interested in purchasing the Su-57 for warmaking purposes, Wang said.

Sputnik reported last May that that Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu had expressed interest in the Su-57 if Washington declined to sell Ankara F-35s — something it has now done as punishment for Turkey's purchase of Russian-made S-400 air defense systems.

"We have clearly warned Turkey that its potential acquisition of the S-400 will result in reassessment of Turkey's participation in the F-35 program, and risk other potential future arms transfers to Turkey, as well as lead to potential actions under Countering America's Adversaries through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) upon any government entities, private industry or individuals involved in such a transaction," a US State Department official told Sputnik

AL-41 is two generations ahead of anything the Chinese can produce. Also it has thrust vectoring.

Not sure about soruce reliability but if such system is on Su-67 is unlikely only for IR homing. What about radar or optical one?

Military Watch Magazine wrote:
Russia’s Su-57 Next Generation Fighter Shoots Lasers to Blind Enemy Missiles - A Look at the Directional Infrared Countermeasures System

Like other high end fifth generation aircraft such as the American F-22 Raptor, the Su-57’s airframe integrates several missile launch detector apertures to provide warning as to potential enemy missile attacks. Unlike the Raptor however, the fighter also deploys turrets which are capable of firing lasers to blind incoming missiles. This is an invaluable asset in both air to air engagements and for penetration of enemy air defences, and provides and excellent complement to the fighter’s high performance supermanoeuvrable airframe which is already extremely difficult to target. DIRCM turrets are mounted both dorsally behind the fighter’s cockpit and ventrally under the cockpit. While such systems have previously been mounted on larger military aircraft such as U.S. C-17 transports, their miniaturisation and deployment on an airframe as small as that of a fighter aircraft is wholly unprecedented. Russia’s armed forces have previously deployed DIRCM on larger helicopters, though these have been far from compact relative to that seen on the Su-57. Such systems are considered particularly effective against infra red guided missiles such as the American AIM-9 air to air missile or 9K32 Strela-2 surface to air missile system. Russia’s experience against infra red guided surface to air munitions such as MANPADS (man portable air defence systems), which have taken a toll on its aircraft in the past including in Jihadist hands in Syria, provides a strong incentive to equip its leading combat jet with adequate countermeasures against such attacks with a DIRCM system.

While useful against MANPAD attacks, as the Su-57 was designed primarily for high end air to air engagements the need for defence against such low level attacks from the ground, which are highly limited in their altitudes, remains secondary. The fact that the Su-57 deploys DIRCM turrets on both the top and the bottom of its airframe indicates that its intent is to intercept attacks from both the air and the ground - which is highly consistent with the philosophy which appears to drive its overall design. The Su-57 design is based heavily on the concept that high manoeuvrability, limited stealth capabilities and modern electronic warfare countermeasures will allow it to evade long range missile attacks and engage in visual range or near visual range fights. The ability to blind enemy infra red guided missiles is thus particularly valuable, as such missiles are relied on almost exclusively for short range air to air engagements where the applicability of radar guided missiles remains limited. Examples of short range air to air missiles using such guidance systems, all of which are thus left vulnerable to neutralisation by DIRCM, include the American AIM-9X, British AIM-132, Israeli Python-5 and Soviet R-73 - the last which is deployed by several of Russia’s potential adversaries in Eastern Europe such as Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine. The ability to neutralise infra red guided air to air missiles would provide the Su-57 with an overwhelming advantage in short range air to air engagements - a capability no rival fighter has yet to take to prototype stage.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/russia-s-su-57-next-generation-fighter-shoots-lasers-to-blind-enemy-missiles-a-look-at-the-directional-infrared-countermeasures-system

What do you mean with Su-67, was that a typo?

DIRCM is indeed meant against IR homing heads. It blinds them with the very intense laser beam, the same way you cannot see if someone points a laser at your eyes. You can see some videos on the internet. Very effective for self defence, also intended for F-35 but I don't know if it was already deployed.

Optic guidance AA missiles are not known to me. As to radar, it has an in-built EW suite, but as far as I know nothing capable of frying the seeker of missiles and completely separated from DIRCM turrets.

BTW I am each time more convinced Izd. 30 is indeed an VCE and Su-57 could be the best supercruiser of all.

> FSC like AL-31F --> High BPR ca 0.6
> Highest specific thrust --> higher temp and/or lower BPR than F119 (0.3)

Together with very big intakes (30% bigger than F-22 if I am not wrong) and adjustable ramps the engine should receive more air flow at high altitude. We could be talking about extremely high cruise speeds, given the reported 1.8 M for F-22 and available data would indicate Su-57 has the tools to be even faster. All that without compromising the persistence in subsonic flight, it would be frankly impressive.

Not sure about soruce reliability but if such system is on Su-67 is unlikely only for IR homing. What about radar or optical one?

Well not just the seekers on IR guided and IIR guided missiles... AIM-9X and ASRAAM use IIR seekers, which are imaging sensors like optical sensors, but also IRSTs and laser range finders in IRST systems like the system on Typhoon, Rafale, and of course the LANTIRN family of targeting pods also use optics and laser range finders to target and track air and ground targets.

One could argue such a system could target the cockpit of the enemy fighter and dazzle the pilot, but they would not mention that as an option in public due to the outrage and backlash... it is OK to fire a missile that explodes and peppers him with shrapnel and tears him to pieces, but it is not OK to blind him and leave him to crash his aircraft and die that way (or eject and potentially survive perhaps).

What would be the Russian equivalent of DAS? Does the Su-57 suffer from lacking it?

Also, why was the IRST never given a stealthy casing the same way the J-20 has on its IRST?

On keypublishing there are claims that the Su-57's wing bulges are too small to carry the R-74. Are there official statements regarding those bulges that contradict these claims?

What would be the Russian equivalent of DAS? Does the Su-57 suffer from lacking it?

The Mi-28NM has DAS, as does upgraded versions of the Hind.

The Su-35, the MiG-35, and the Su-57 all have DAS to detect and deal with laser and IR based threats as well as detect incoming missiles of all types... they also have DIRCMs too..

Also, why was the IRST never given a stealthy casing the same way the J-20 has on its IRST?

Why do you think it is not stealthy?

On keypublishing there are claims that the Su-57's wing bulges are too small to carry the R-74. Are there official statements regarding those bulges that contradict these claims?

Keypubs is british based... do you actually trust them?

The new generation missiles being developed for the Su-57 will be designed for internal carriage and the short range IR guided 9M100 based missile will have a lock after launch IIR seeker and datalink and full thrust vector control motor that means very few external control surfaces and a slim little missile, but of course the obvious question would be what else could be there? Laser cannons?

GarryB wrote:

What would be the Russian equivalent of DAS? Does the Su-57 suffer from lacking it?

The Mi-28NM has DAS, as does upgraded versions of the Hind.

The Su-35, the MiG-35, and the Su-57 all have DAS to detect and deal with laser and IR based threats as well as detect incoming missiles of all types... they also have DIRCMs too..

I think you would call the system in Su-57 MAWS, it is supposed to operate in UV and deal with incoming missiles though I have not seen any official info on it.

MiG-35 has DAS, why would Su-57 not have it?

Hell the westerners think they are special with sensor fusion... MiG-29 and Su-27 had Helmet mounted cueing systems linked together with the IRSTs and radar so any of the three could be used to find and mark targets and transfer the lock to either of the other systems if needed...

GarryB wrote:MiG-35 has DAS, why would Su-57 not have it?

Hell the westerners think they are special with sensor fusion... MiG-29 and Su-27 had Helmet mounted cueing systems linked together with the IRSTs and radar so any of the three could be used to find and mark targets and transfer the lock to either of the other systems if needed...

Su-27s had datalink btw them to send data about what their radars see to the others back in the 80s.

Something that you find in the f-35 and about which US are so proud.

As long as the fighter is flown by a man, his brain will be the best supercomputer for sendor fusion. Try only need to find the perfect way to expose to the pilot what every sensor detects. That's why su-57 HUD is like 2x bigger than on other jets.

Su-35 has MAWS so does Su-57 as it's a VLO Su-35 with some newer tech

GarryB wrote:MiG-35 has DAS, why would Su-57 not have it?

Hell the westerners think they are special with sensor fusion... MiG-29 and Su-27 had Helmet mounted cueing systems linked together with the IRSTs and radar so any of the three could be used to find and mark targets and transfer the lock to either of the other systems if needed...

What do you mean exactly by DAS? Only equivalent distributed apertures I know are the MAWS and the only info I have seen has it they are UV. I see no problem putting IR or optical systems there is no info about it

LMFS wrote:

GarryB wrote:MiG-35 has DAS, why would Su-57 not have it?

Hell the westerners think they are special with sensor fusion... MiG-29 and Su-27 had Helmet mounted cueing systems linked together with the IRSTs and radar so any of the three could be used to find and mark targets and transfer the lock to either of the other systems if needed...

What do you mean exactly by DAS? Only equivalent distributed apertures I know are the MAWS and the only info I have seen has it they are UV. I see no problem putting IR or optical systems there is no info about it

Su-57 has side radars it can cover the sides and the front. Not 360 coverage but close. Its radars can pick up missiles at ranges similar to UV sensors. Then it's only a matter of showing the info to the pilot.

But radars are mostly turned off.

Su-57 has UV sensors. Don't know to which degree if it's full camera or not.