Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

Peŕrier wrote:...............

Actually, Karakurt are in line with most of the world's corvettes in the ratio weapon/displacement.

They have no hangar and no helicopter support facilities, no ASW weapons and sensors, almost no AAW weapons.

They are mostly FAC, with cruise missiles taking the place of ASh missiles.

Karakurts ARE NOT corvettes and never will be. They don't have ASW and AAW sensors and weapons because they ARE NOT corvettes.

They are MISSILE SHIPS.

Corvettes in Russian Navy start with Steregushi class and above.

I agree. As a matter of fact, on the same post I added that a Karakurt is mainly a FAC (missile boat), not a corvette.

The reasoning about weapon/displacement was because some forumers made a comparison to other kind of vessels,stating that Karakurt are armed to the teeth.

Well, they are not, they simply have the displacement required to embark UKSK and related systems.

Big_Gazza wrote:
Easiest to simply consider them to be modernised equivalents of the Soviet-era Nanuchka and Tarantul class missile boats.  Heavy AShM, artillery, short-range SAM, CIWS, limited endurance.  Difference is that the new boats now have long range surface strike capabilities.

Karakurt vs Nanuchka
8 vs 6/4 missiles
1000 vs 110 km range
4000 vs 2500 miles autonomy

8Ma vs 0.9 Ma missiles' speed


Something changed tho.

Karakurt is a perfect ship for the needs of the Russian Navy. The Russian Navy needs cruise missile launch platforms and instead of waiting a decade or two for the construction of a whole series of destroyers they can fill the gaps with small and cheap boats that can be built very quickly.

PapaDragon wrote:
Karakurts ARE NOT corvettes and never will be. They don't have ASW and AAW sensors and weapons because they ARE NOT corvettes.

They are MISSILE SHIPS.

Corvettes in Russian Navy start with Steregushi class and above.

In western classification Karakurt is a corvette. Everything above speed and patrol boat is a corvette. After that frigate, destroyer etc. Ok, in russian classification Karakurt is missile ship, that's right ^^

It's funny that Steregushchiy class is in western classification a corvette on border to frigate

Peŕrier wrote:The reasoning about weapon/displacement was because some forumers made a comparison to other kind of vessels,stating that Karakurt are armed to the teeth.

Well, they are not, they simply  have the displacement required to embark UKSK and related systems.

Compare the Karakurt with western pendants! A small ship with the armament of Kalibr (UKSK system) and the ability to attack high value targets is not bad. In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...). The german K 130 corvette has a attack range of around 280 km with AGM-84 Harpoon, the russian 3M54 missile has a range of 530 km.

Azi wrote:

Peŕrier wrote:The reasoning about weapon/displacement was because some forumers made a comparison to other kind of vessels,stating that Karakurt are armed to the teeth.

Well, they are not, they simply  have the displacement required to embark UKSK and related systems.

Compare the Karakurt with western pendants! A small ship with the armament of Kalibr (UKSK system) and the ability to attack high value targets is not bad. In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...). The german K 130 corvette has a attack range of around 280 km with AGM-84 Harpoon, the russian 3M54 missile has a range of 530 km.

That's not because of western capabilities to do so. It's because of their naval philosophy. They want blue navies with big ships.

US had mk-41 VLS able to fire Tomahawks in the 70s. They could have designed a smal corvette armed with it like 50 years ago ...

Stop this argument of "missile boat armed like a destroyer". That's pathetic. The reality is that any Admiral would want destroyer instead of Karakurts even Russians. They have only 8 missiles and are easy target for aviation if they are not covered by other assests like fighter or bigger ship.

They just have to replace their light ships and can't build enough big ships. That's why they build them even if it is a nice ship.

In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...).

No they don't. Burkes can go from US to Syria and lunch an Attack that would recquire 7 Karakurts and be protected by their own AEGIS.

How would you lunch a cruise missile Attack so far with karakurts they would be destroyed before reaching the lunch position.

That's reality

Typhoon is launched.
Pics via Balancer












And a couple from Flotprom http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B017/



This one has launched with the radar panels in place

Azi wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Karakurts ARE NOT corvettes and never will be. They don't have ASW and AAW sensors and weapons because they ARE NOT corvettes.

They are MISSILE SHIPS.

Corvettes in Russian Navy start with Steregushi class and above.

In western classification Karakurt is a corvette. Everything above speed and patrol boat is a corvette. After that frigate, destroyer etc. Ok, in russian classification Karakurt is missile ship, that's right ^^

It's funny that Steregushchiy class is in western classification a corvette on border to frigate

Not at all.

Main definition of a corvette, in Western Navies, is of a ship NOT able to follow a Task Force (max speed not enough to keep pace with frigates and destroyers), mainly tasked with ASW, patrol and (or) ASh missions.

So Karakurt is not a corvette in the western meaning.

Its most close relative, in western navies, would be the Braunschweig Class, and that class superceded the Gepard class, a Fast attack Boat class.

Stereguschy, in turn, are corvettes on steroids, very close to a 70's western frigate with the exeption of a full Diesel power plant aimed to endurance.

Isos wrote:

Azi wrote:

Peŕrier wrote:The reasoning about weapon/displacement was because some forumers made a comparison to other kind of vessels,stating that Karakurt are armed to the teeth.

Well, they are not, they simply  have the displacement required to embark UKSK and related systems.

Compare the Karakurt with western pendants! A small ship with the armament of Kalibr (UKSK system) and the ability to attack high value targets is not bad. In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...). The german K 130 corvette has a attack range of around 280 km with AGM-84 Harpoon, the russian 3M54 missile has a range of 530 km.

That's not because of western capabilities to do so. It's because of their naval philosophy. They want blue navies with big ships.

US had mk-41 VLS able to fire Tomahawks in the 70s. They could have designed a smal corvette armed with it like 50 years ago ...

Stop this argument of "missile boat armed like a destroyer". That's pathetic. The reality is that any Admiral would want destroyer instead of Karakurts even Russians. They have only 8 missiles and are easy target for aviation if they are not covered by other assests like fighter or bigger ship.

They just have to replace their light ships and can't build enough big ships. That's why they build them even if it is a nice ship.

In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...).

No they don't. Burkes can go from US to Syria and lunch an Attack that would recquire 7 Karakurts and be protected by their own AEGIS.

How would you lunch a cruise missile Attack so far with karakurts they would be destroyed before reaching the lunch position.

That's reality

They wouldn't, because its not their mission.

Karakurt are short range (in the meaning of ship's own endurance) land attack boats, able to perform Ash mission as well.

They play two roles, first they provide a dispersed land attack capabilty, so that Russia have an attack platform at hand in any theater close to its borders without have to deploy its main ships, second they could provide a backup retaliation tool, if armed with long range nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

They are not meant to cruise far from home waters, but to deploy and keep moving inside home waters.

If I had to give them a bad note, it would be to the lack of any landing pad.

At least a basic landing pad without any hangar (meaning of course a larger and longer hull) could be a real asset if any unusual task should be performed.

Peŕrier wrote:

Azi wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
.

Not at all.

Main definition of a corvette, in Western Navies, is of a ship NOT able to follow a Task Force (max speed not enough to keep pace with frigates and destroyers), mainly tasked with ASW, patrol and (or) ASh missions.

So Karakurt is not a corvette in the western meaning.

Its most close relative, in western navies, would be the Braunschweig Class, and that class superceded the Gepard class, a Fast attack Boat class.

Stereguschy, in turn, are corvettes on steroids, very close to a 70's western frigate with the exeption of a full Diesel power plant aimed to endurance.

Actually Karakurt is fast enough to follow other Naval units, for example it's one knot faster than Gorshkov frigate (30 vs 29)

Karakurts are supposed to either stay close to coast and do local patrols or, should need arise, tag along with larger ships and act as fire support (mini missile farms) 

In both cases they would stay under air cover of either coastal assets or larger ships

Peŕrier wrote:

Not at all.

Main definition of a corvette, in Western Navies, is of a ship NOT able to follow a Task Force (max speed not enough to keep pace with frigates and destroyers), mainly tasked with ASW, patrol and (or) ASh missions.

So Karakurt is not a corvette in the western meaning.

Its most close relative, in western navies, would be the Braunschweig Class, and that class superceded the Gepard class, a Fast attack Boat class.

Stereguschy, in turn, are corvettes on steroids, very close to a 70's western frigate with the exeption of a full Diesel power plant aimed to endurance.

The "Braunschweig Class" is the K130 Class and clearly classified as corvette. K in K130 for "Korvette". The classification in western countries is mostly because of displacement, because displacement offers a lot of room for sensors, weapons, crew etc. No space is wasted! And most corvettes are quick as frigates and destroyers. The F125 "Baden Wüttemberg Class" (frigate on border to destroyer) has the same speed as the K130 "Braunschweig class" (corvette).

The characteristics of a Fast Attack Boat is to be fast. Karakurt is not really fast. Most fast attack boats have a average displacement of 500 t and normal a speed 20 km/h or more above Karakurt Class. In every all western media, wikipedia, NATO papers etc Karakurt is classified as corvette and not as Fast Attack Boat.

PapaDragon wrote:
Karakurts are supposed to either stay close to coast and do local patrols or, should need arise, tag along with larger ships and act as fire support (mini missile farms) 

In both cases they would stay under air cover of either coastal assets or larger ships

Exact!

Isos wrote:Stop this argument of "missile boat armed like a destroyer". That's pathetic. The reality is that any Admiral would want destroyer instead of Karakurts even Russians. They have only 8 missiles and are easy target for aviation if they are not covered by other assests like fighter or bigger ship.

.
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No they don't. Burkes can go from US to Syria and lunch an Attack that would recquire 7 Karakurts and be protected by their own AEGIS.

How would you lunch a cruise missile Attack so far with karakurts they would be destroyed before reaching the lunch position.

That's reality

First of all they have to spot and track the Karakurts. Karakurts Class have reduced radar signature, they have some "stealth qualities" and they are small ships. So to spot a Karakurt out of dozens or hundred civilian ships in the same area could be difficult. If enemy plane comes to near it will be also in danger, because of Pantsir-M.

No one said that a Karakurt is in the same class like a Burke or Ticonderoga!!! But a volley of 8 Kalibr missile is a serious danger even for a Burke or Ticonderoga. Aegis combat system is not optimized for low flying cruise missile, in this case it is like every other radar system on other ships.

Kalibr have greater range than Harpoon or Tomahawk (AS variant). The only western weapon that will have a greater range is LRASM, but it's still in development.

No one said that Karakurt go out to hunt Burkes and Co. far away from Russia, somewhere in in the middle of a ocean. Karakurt have only a endurance of 2 weeks or so. But if enemy ships come close to Russian coast in Baltic Sea or Black Sea, they can face real danger from Karakurt. And it's a joker for retaliation against land targets.

The "Braunschweig Class" is the K130 Class and clearly classified as corvette. K in K130 for "Korvette". The classification in western countries is mostly because of displacement, because displacement offers a lot of room for sensors, weapons, crew etc. No space is wasted! And most corvettes are quick as frigates and destroyers. The F125 "Baden Wüttemberg Class" (frigate on border to destroyer) has the same speed as the K130 "Braunschweig class" (corvette).

The characteristics of a Fast Attack Boat is to be fast. Karakurt is not really fast. Most fast attack boats have a average displacement of 500 t and normal a speed 20 km/h or more above Karakurt Class. In every all western media, wikipedia, NATO papers etc Karakurt is classified as corvette and not as Fast Attack Boat.[/quote]

Nope. "K" means simply "Kampfschiff", i.e. "fighting ship".

Al media reportig K meaning Korvette, even german media, are simply wrong, or better to say it's a posthomously applied meaning.

For a comparison, the future german frigates are named in code MKS-180, with MKS meaning Mehrzweckkampfschiff, Mutirole Fighting Ship.

Actually, in the german Navy they (K-130) are not even classified as "ship", but as "boat", and they were conceived as successors of the Gepard class attack boats.

Even the officer in command o has a rank typical of small vessels, not of a "real" ship.

And the relatively low speed was conceived because in the narrow waters they were destined to operate in, it was deemed of low priority, while far greater emphasys was given to ECM, CIWS and sensors, because air attacks were deemed to be by far the main threat to counter.

It happened that following the end of the Cod War, their intended missions, sea interdition in Gulf of Finland and Baltic Sea, disappeared and the german Navy tried to employ them in roles typical of a corvette, with little success not only for thir teething problems, but mainly because they were never designed for such missions and are ill suited for long patrols.

Peŕrier wrote:
Nope. "K" means simply "Kampfschiff", i.e. "fighting ship".

Al media reportig K meaning Korvette, even german media, are simply wrong, or better to say it's a posthomously applied meaning.

For a comparison, the future german frigates are named in code MKS-180, with MKS meaning Mehrzweckkampfschiff, Mutirole Fighting Ship.

Actually, in the german Navy they (K-130) are not even classified as "ship", but as "boat", and they were conceived as successors of the Gepard class attack boats.

Complete BULLSHIT! I'm german by the way

Z xxx -> Zerstörer (destroyer)
F xxx -> Fregatte (frigate)
K xxx -> Korvette (corvette)

ALL other ships in German Navy have simply a class number!

I qoute german wikipedia about K130...

K130 - wikipedia wrote:Die Klasse 130[1] (nach dem Typschiff auch Braunschweig-Klasse genannt) ist eine Kriegsschiffklasse der Deutschen Marine. Die bisher fünf Korvetten bilden das 1. Korvettengeschwader im Marinestützpunkt Warnemünde. Der Schiffstyp ersetzt die kleineren Flugkörperschnellboote der Gepard-Klasse (143A) und kann bei weltweiten Einsätzen Aufgaben übernehmen, die zuvor mit höherem Personalaufwand von größeren Einheiten erfüllt wurden.

I quote english wikipedia...

K130 - wikipedia wrote:The K130 Braunschweig class (sometimes Korvette 130) is Germany's newest class of ocean-going corvettes. Five ships have replaced the Gepard-class fast attack craft of the German Navy. In October 2016 it was announced that a second batch of five more corvettes is to be procured from 2022-2025.[4] The decision was in response to NATO requirements expecting Germany to provide a total of four corvettes at the highest readiness level for littoral operations by 2018, and with only five corvettes just two can be provided.[5]

There is no "Kampfschiff" as class in German Navy!!! The new "Mehrzweck Kampfschiff 180" in short MKS 180 is not the class. The new class will be K131 or F126, depending on later classification as corvette OR frigate. The word "Mehrzweck Kampfschiff 180" means only the project name, very like "Project 22800".

I wrote that MKS-180 is a code name, with the meaning of the project name, as K-130 was the project name for the Braunschweig class.

By the way, the Braunschweig have a pennant number starting with F (meaning frigate in NATO coding system), followed by a 2, again as foreseen in the NATO coding system for the German Navy's frigates.

Still it doesn't make them frigates.

About calling them corvette, I read first time the definition when Braunschweig was launched, before they were referred as K130 or even Kl. 130 (Kl meaning Klass, I think) without referring them as corvettes, but stating they were intended to replace the previous fast attack boat.

If I'm wrong, it's my fault, of course.

But I'm pretty sure they were conceived at start as pimped replacements for attack boats.

The experiments aimed to deploy them in corvette's typical roles were conducted past their induction in service, with not so satisfatory results.

For a while it was considered a following, derived class referred to as K-131, to get vessels optimized for a corvette's role, but the project was abandoned given the cuts in the BVM's budget

Peŕrier wrote:
I wrote that MKS-180 is a code name, with the meaning of the project name, as K-130 was the project name for the Braunschweig class.

By the way, the Braunschweig have a pennant number starting with F (meaning frigate in NATO coding system), followed by a 2, again as foreseen in the NATO coding system for the German Navy's frigates.

Still it doesn't make them frigates.

About calling them corvette, I read first time the definition when Braunschweig was launched, before they were referred as K130 or even Kl. 130 (Kl meaning Klass, I think) without referring them as corvettes, but stating they were intended to replace the previous fast attack boat.

If I'm wrong, it's my fault, of course.

But I'm pretty sure they were conceived at start as pimped replacements for attack boats.

The experiments aimed to deploy them in corvette's typical roles were conducted past their induction in service, with not so satisfatory results.

For a while it was considered a following, derived class referred to as K-131, to get vessels optimized for a corvette's role, but the project was abandoned given the cuts in the BVM's budget

Ah ok, i understand what you mean with "Kampfschiff"...

It's only the project name. Classification in German Navy is never "Kampfschiff".

The K130 is really the replacement for a fast attack boat, the "Gepard Class". But it's much bigger, slower and it's difficult to call it a real replacement, because it's a new ship with a different role.

The pennant number really classifies the K130 as frigate (corvettes are included as frigates), but with subs where is also confusion...you have S and U...both But K130 is really a corvette, it's official! Sometimes called only Class 130 without the K, both is correct "Class 130" and Class K130".

No problem ^^ cu

More launch via Balancer
Video


And pics

I love the design!

Νο Pantsir, but 2 x AK-630 instead.

George1 wrote:Νο Pantsir, but 2 x AK-630 instead.

Only CIWS? Won't get the future Models Pantsir-M?

More launch pics at http://foto-i-mir.ru/22800-typhoon-171124/
Really wondering when they'll get around to saying what those panel radar actually are...
Its quite amazing how thoroughly Russian sources manage to avoid talking about it (not that there is much discussion in English sources either)