Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

hoom wrote:Chinese alternative to MTUs is for Buyan-Ms.

Ppl at Balancer indicate Zvezda hasn't increased rate of production, Kingsieppe still far from being able to produce them.

Also '2nd' boat is apparently still waiting for engines...
(I think its 2nd serial = 3rd overall or the actual 2nd had a fault requiring replacement)

Engines are being produced by more than one company now. Unless it's referring to other turbines.  But as you said, possibly not ready for full production yet.

I think everyone will be happy to know that the rules on getting things delivered on time or face legal consequences is now being applied everywhere in the MiC. So Zvezda will have no choice but to find third party companies to make the engines.

From what I read months ago was M50 engines class can be built by other plants and that other plants were already geared to manufacture them.

Engines are being produced by more than one company now.

There has been talk of doing that, there is no announcement or pics of it actually happening.
Meanwhile there are a bunch of boats sitting at pier floating way above waterline & persistent suggestion that they have no engines yet because only Zvezda is building them and very slowly.

Its still better than relying on imported engines.

miketheterrible wrote:

hoom wrote:Chinese alternative to MTUs is for Buyan-Ms.

Ppl at Balancer indicate Zvezda hasn't increased rate of production, Kingsieppe still far from being able to produce them.

Also '2nd' boat is apparently still waiting for engines...
(I think its 2nd serial = 3rd overall or the actual 2nd had a fault requiring replacement)

Engines are being produced by more than one company now. Unless it's referring to other turbines.  But as you said, possibly not ready for full production yet.

I think everyone will be happy to know that the rules on getting things delivered on time or face legal consequences is now being applied everywhere in the MiC.  So Zvezda will have no choice but to find third party companies to make the engines.

From what I read months ago was M50 engines class can be built by other plants and that other plants were already geared to manufacture them.

That`s totally untrue. You obviously mingle M50 engine range with M500 engine range. M50 is typically e.g. 12ЧСПН18/20, while M500 is e.g. 56ЧСПН16/17 - М504 /112ЧСПН16/17 -М507.Means No of cyl.,4tact, supercharged, with built-in reverse-reduction gear, bore x stroke 160x170mm.Long term reliance on import engines is impossible and prohibited by law! Even procurement of MTU4000 for some hulls has been made in order to copy it and arrange domestic production in the future, but the sanctions were tightened earlier. Maybe new range of Chelyabinsk diesels could be marinised perspectively!?

They wouldn't have started this product line if they were uncertain about production. Clearly they have production since zvezda plant is churning out engines for this design.  If they didn't, none would be running.  So that tells me that they have localized production. Issue is, their production rates.

The Russian government is investing hard in this. They will demand movement of production as they already did with another engine as you pointed out I'm mistaking M50 for M500 engines. I believe it was to do with Steregyushi Corvettes engine issue.

Experience is a good teacher, but sometimes innovation is helped by a lack of experience.

An aspect is reliability with a brand new (for them) product... it does not matter if you make a dozen if the first three you put in to ships reveals a problem that needs fixing on all 12 engines and the design and production of future engines... sometimes it is better to just make 3-4 engines and put them into ships for normal operational use for a period of time and then examine them and see what is wearing and what is not and modify the design and production materials and then make some more engines and update the existing models with new more durable parts and continue from there... it is by no means a quick process, and rushing into mass production is actually very stupid if it turns out they all need complete redesigns... which would be embarrassing because of all the break downs and expensive because you need to take ships out of service and fix them when you should be cranking out new ships with new engines...

miketheterrible wrote:They wouldn't have started this product line if they were uncertain about production. Clearly they have production since zvezda plant is churning out engines for this design.  If they didn't, none would be running.  So that tells me that they have localized production. Issue is, their production rates.

The Russian government is investing hard in this. They will demand movement of production as they already did with another engine as you pointed out I'm mistaking M50 for M500 engines.  I believe it was to do with Steregyushi Corvettes engine issue.

Pr.20380 corvettes (light frigates) use completely different engines of Kolomna plant (Коломенский завод дизельных двигателей). These engines are something like well known Pielstick PA6V280, marked as 10D49, in 12 or 16 cylinders in V arrangement and running at full power @1100rpm.

kumbor wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:They wouldn't have started this product line if they were uncertain about production. Clearly they have production since zvezda plant is churning out engines for this design.  If they didn't, none would be running.  So that tells me that they have localized production. Issue is, their production rates.

The Russian government is investing hard in this. They will demand movement of production as they already did with another engine as you pointed out I'm mistaking M50 for M500 engines.  I believe it was to do with Steregyushi Corvettes engine issue.

Pr.20380 corvettes (light frigates) use completely different engines of Kolomna plant (Коломенский завод дизельных двигателей). These engines are something like well known Pielstick PA6V280, marked as 10D49, in 12 or 16 cylinders in V arrangement and running at full power @1100rpm.

Premise holds the same though. Engines may be different but solution is the same. If one plant cannot produce, it will be moved to other locations. Since these shipyards are no longer individuals but under USC and Rostec. There was an article from vpk.name here somewhere that links to about expanding production of corvette turbines to multiple companies. I just do not remember which model to be exact.

What they need to do is develop engine families and expand their practical uses... unify engine design so the engine for the train is able to be used on a ship or as a generator engine on a bigger vessel.

They should be getting to the point where they are exporting diesel engines to China...

GarryB wrote:What they need to do is develop engine families and expand their practical uses... unify engine design so the engine for the train is able to be used on a ship or as a generator engine on a bigger vessel.

They should be getting to the point where they are exporting diesel engines to China...

It goes like that when little Garry dreams!!! Engines cqn be high speed, medium speed and slow speed, slow revving. Every peculiar type of engine is optimal for peculiar type of vessel, or combat ship. FAC/corvette is never propelled with MAN B/W engine of 500 tons, 30.000SHP at 100rpm! Marine engines are specially built with seawater cooling system etc. Rail traction engines need relatively small intervention for on board use. Much depends also on load factors...

Garry's point may have some validity if the propulsion primarily heads towards electric otherwise what you said is generally true except engines are designed to scale with in some parameters basically a platform to support various workloads and output's just like some automobile engines are much more tunable than others. But they will still be separate platforms marine vs terrestrial vs aircraft for the reasons you mentioned...

Some mess-hall shots

2nd boat to start sea trials soon https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6339175

The Pella Shipbuilding Plant (St. Petersburg) is finishing the commissioning work of the Typhoon main engines of the small rocket ship (MRK), the second representative of the 22800 Karakurt project, the carrier of the Caliber cruise missiles. The ship can begin sea trials already in mid-May, a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS on Tuesday.

“Now the main engines are connected to the ship. I think that until the ice comes down, the ship will not go anywhere, most likely the Typhoon will be running in mid-May,” the agency’s source said.

Another TASS source in the industry said that the ship’s test of sea trials could take place on April 25, if the Pella had time to complete the installation and connection of the power plant.

And some status pics

Mytst... Mychtys... Mistch... first boat

hoom wrote:Mytst... Mychtys... Mistch... first boat
...

What I find especially pathetic is how they just welded some cheap plate they had lying around and spray painted new name

Could you possibly give fewer sh*ts?

How To Make Naval Vessel a Joke 101

PapaDragon wrote:

What I find especially pathetic is how they just welded some cheap plate they had lying around and spray painted new name

Could you possibly give fewer sh*ts?

How To Make Naval Vessel a Joke 101

The biggest joke is installing Chinese diesels that breakdown in 3 days because Zvezda is too incompetent to increase production.  I must ask them if they are tooling every piece by hand as no engine manufacture is that fucking slow.

What I find especially pathetic is how they just welded some cheap plate they had lying around and spray painted new name

Well can't really blame the shipyard ppl, it was a late change so they did what they could to put the new name on for the Acceptance ceremony.
In the above mess hall pics you can see some of the internal stuff has the new name, others the old.

The biggest joke is installing Chinese diesels that breakdown in 3 days because Zvezda is too incompetent to increase production.

Its Buyan-M & Rubin border patrol ships that are getting the Chinese diesels.

22800s all have the Zvezda engines, at least the ones that actually have engines.
I'm not going to argue that things got better in recent years here, the evidence is if anything it seems to have gotten worse

Vladimir79 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

What I find especially pathetic is how they just welded some cheap plate they had lying around and spray painted new name

Could you possibly give fewer sh*ts?

How To Make Naval Vessel a Joke 101

The biggest joke is installing Chinese diesels that breakdown in 3 days because Zvezda is too incompetent to increase production.  I must ask them if they are tooling every piece by hand as no engine manufacture is that fucking slow.

the company was not producing that many engines before, so it's possible that they did not have the personnel and / or the facilities to produce at a higher rate. Increasing rate of production may mean investing and building new production facilities, hiring and training new people,etc.

Furthermore an engine company does not produce everything on its own. in the west most parts are subcontracted to smaller companies/suppliers and the engine manufacturer build only the bigger parts and test and assembled the final product.


Maybe one of the suppliers is the bottleneck. This would mean that they would have also to modify the whole supply chain. This is the problem caused by underinvestment in the sector for decades.

Maybe a solution could have been to review all the manufacturing processes and supply chain, including all the suppliers and their capabilities, with some competent officials from the russian government, and see which of these companies would have needed special help or funding, maybe also via part nationalisation, to ensure an higher rate of production.


It is more than possible that there was also quite a bit of incompetence, corruption and incorrect behavior from the company management, but it is only an aggravating factor, not the main reason.

To be fully capable in all engine needs for all ships classes and sizes is not something that can be reached in 3/4 years. Something has to be prioritized and something else instead will be done later.

Concerning buyan-m engines, as far as I understand there is at the moment no russian naval diesel engine model currently in production that is compatible with those ships, and the germans broke the contract and refused to supply their engines. The Chineses had in production a licenced older version of that german engine, so it was the only possible solution without completely redesign the ships (and maybe scrap the hulls already part built). Maybe they can study those engines, reverse engineer them and try to improve and start production, but it is a process that will take years and it was not the priority, since they had to concentrate on many other products (zvezda engine manufacturer is also building the reductor gear for the gorshkov class frigates).

A major issue with Zvezda is that simultaneously with this big engine order for 22800s they've been busy setting up a brand new gearbox production facility & tasked with developing/testing/building gearboxes for the whole slew of in production ship designs.

Its still a really bad situation & desperately in need of getting sorted.

Other companies we're willing to produce marine engines M50 series before (example) but Zvezda was hoarding patents. I think recently they were forced to Branch out to other manufacturing companies in Russia to help produce.

No Vlad is right, the Karakutt's are slated to have kolomna Penza RUMO engines just like Rubin boats, Hoom quoted.

Not all of them but the shipyard cannot prepare engines fast enough so they are sticking some Chinese engines into the class, which is a shame since those Chinese engines will make the ships a bit slower than the other ones. Better than leaving them on the side of a dock for years.

Could easily replace the engines when they have spares I guess.

Not all of them but the shipyard cannot prepare engines fast enough so they are sticking some Chinese engines into the class, which is a shame since those Chinese engines will make the ships a bit slower than the other ones. Better than leaving them on the side of a dock for years.

There was some talk about doing that but last I recall was official denial that they would go ahead with it.

miketheterrible wrote:Other companies we're willing to produce marine engines M50 series before (example) but Zvezda was hoarding patents. I think recently they were forced to Branch out to other manufacturing companies in Russia to help produce.

They came under new ownership last year and the parts were subcontracted to Kalashnikov Group. The problem is the financial situation of the plant, they hardly posted a profit in 2017 and with the delays of 2018 have suffered over $100 million in late fees. The State only fronts 10% of the order and the rest upon delivery. In order to expand production they need financing and no one wants to give out loans to a credit risk. Kalashnikov is under threat of not receiving payment as they only get paid when Zvezda has money to pay them.

Vladimir79 wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Other companies we're willing to produce marine engines M50 series before (example) but Zvezda was hoarding patents. I think recently they were forced to Branch out to other manufacturing companies in Russia to help produce.

They came under new ownership last year and the parts were subcontracted to Kalashnikov Group.  The problem is the financial situation of the plant, they hardly posted a profit in 2017 and with the delays of 2018 have suffered over $100 million in late fees.  The State only fronts 10% of the order and the rest upon delivery.  In order to expand production they need financing and no one wants to give out loans to a credit risk.  Kalashnikov is under threat of not receiving payment as they only get paid when Zvezda has money to pay them.  

I wasn't aware worse then I thought.

And what about these engines?

https://flotprom.ru/2015/Мвмс53/

google translate wrote:

July 2, 2015

A new generation diesel engine, the DM-185, built at the Ural diesel engine plant, is presented at the Sinara-Transport Machines booth. They can equip both surface ships, in particular corvettes, and submarines. The engine is planned to replace another diesel engine - DM-21.

As the FlotProm correspondent was told at the company's stand, the engine consists of half of the domestic parts and has a Russian control system. 





"The engine was created to solve the problems that arise with the engine DM-21", - said the source publication. According to a company representative, the DM-21 is currently being operated on the Zvezdochka rescue ship and is being installed on submarines of the Yasen and Borey projects. 

He noted that besides the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the potential customers of the engine are the enterprise that sees the BRICS countries. 

"At the request of the customer, the engine can be completed with various modifications, including it can be converted into a gas one," said a company representative. 

The engine is high-speed, its resource is designed for 70,000 hours without overhaul. In addition, it has a large cylinder capacity and was designed by the newest technologies. 

At the same time, the engine has drawbacks, according to the source, it is slightly heavier in weight than the engines of the German company MTU. 


The full capacity of diesel engines DM-185: 0.7-4.9 MW; 
Rotational speed corresponding to the total power: 1500, 1800, 1900 rpm; 
Specific fuel consumption: not more than 204 g / kWh; 
Specific oil consumption for waste: 0.4 g / kWh; 
Specific weight: 3.7-4.7 kg \ kW; 
Resource: 40000-70000 hours; 
Cylinder power: 120-234 kW.