Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

They just have to replace their light ships and can't build enough big ships. That's why they build them even if it is a nice ship.

Of course... they are idiots and need to build super carriers and cruisers right now because you want to win arguments against US Navy Strong fanboys.

It does not make sense for them to build small light powerfully armed vessels, when they could squander their budget on a few super cruisers they have no current need for, now or in the next ten years...

Why build small capable well equipped vessels that would be useful right now, when they can spend all their money on a few stupid expensive cruisers to fight fucking WWIII so fanboi assholes like you can jizz all over the place about how powerful the Russian navy is.

Who fucking needs big powerful cruisers right now?

Certainly not the Russian Navy.

When was the last time an AEGIS class cruiser actually did anything useful?

Was it shooting down an unarmed civilian Iranian airbus from Iranian waters?

Russia is not a blue water navy and would best be served by building lots of smaller ships and support vessels and upgrading their existing vessels to a decent standard before spending all their budget on a few super cruisers just because the US Navy fucken has some.

Are you retarded?

What actual function would a super destroyer or cruiser serve the Russian Navy right now or in the next 10 years?

Border patrol and sea control near her ports is what she needs, not big expensive ships roaming around the world wasting time and money.

The systems and equipment in these new vessels are standardised and scalable... moving up to larger vessels should not be that much of an issue except in terms of cost..bigger ships are certainly much more capable but right now, operations in Syria don't need cruisers, and operations to protect Russia don't need cruisers either.

Fighting WWIII will concern SSBNs from the navy... the rest of the navy will be irrelevant.

GarryB wrote:

They just have to replace their light ships and can't build enough big ships. That's why they build them even if it is a nice ship.

Of course... they are idiots and need to build super carriers and cruisers right now because you want to win arguments against US Navy Strong fanboys.

It does not make sense for them to build small light powerfully armed vessels, when they could squander their budget on a few super cruisers they have no current need for, now or in the next ten years...

Why build small capable well equipped vessels that would be useful right now, when they can spend all their money on a few stupid expensive cruisers to fight fucking WWIII so fanboi assholes like you can jizz all over the place about how powerful the Russian navy is.

Who fucking needs big powerful cruisers right now?

Certainly not the Russian Navy.

When was the last time an AEGIS class cruiser actually did anything useful?

Was it shooting down an unarmed civilian Iranian airbus from Iranian waters?

Russia is not a blue water navy and would best be served by building lots of smaller ships and support vessels and upgrading their existing vessels to a decent standard before spending all their budget on a few super cruisers just because the US Navy fucken has some.

Are you retarded?

What actual function would a super destroyer or cruiser serve the Russian Navy right now or in the next 10 years?

Border patrol and sea control near her ports is what she needs, not big expensive ships roaming around the world wasting time and money.

The systems and equipment in these new vessels are standardised and scalable... moving up to larger vessels should not be that much of an issue except in terms of cost..bigger ships are certainly much more capable but right now, operations in Syria don't need cruisers, and operations to protect Russia don't need cruisers either.

Fighting WWIII will concern SSBNs from the navy... the rest of the navy will be irrelevant.

I absolutely agree with you Gary !

These aviso are very efficient : for the same price and overal performance France have PLG patrol ship with a single ridiculous 20mm gun !!

Project 21631 first shots with calibr have immediate effect of wildraw all us carrier from gulf and show Caspian sea in not a bathroom but a battleroom were never Nato can go !

These ships under russian coast umbrella and spread in sufficiant numbers denie access to black sea, baltic sea, Barents and artic, eastern mediterranean sea, Japan sea, Okotsk sea and Bering sea..... This for the price of a patrol boat.

For one single US cruiser you have 30 Karakurt
For a single G Ford class you have 433 Karakurt !!!!!

Russia have no plan to land a strike force and army in America...NATO yes. So these kind of cheap boats are a  very efficient, low cost, dissymetric answer to huge Nato fleet of carrier, cruiser Fregate and destroyer.

China in comparizon with illimited budget can build a blue water fleet and a huge missile corvette fleet.

In 10 years time the only safe place will be south atlantic and south pacific for NATO fleet.

Would like to apologise to Lsos, I was a bit hard and offensive and I didn't need to be so.

I don't regret what I was saying, just how it was said was rude and personal.

GarryB wrote:Would like to apologise to Lsos, I was a bit hard and offensive and I didn't need to be so.

I don't regret what I was saying, just how it was said was rude and personal.

Hahaha its ok I knew that it will make you react

But I regret that you make me say things I didn t even think avout. Russia needs big ships. Not supercarriers or super lider (i never thouht they need something like that). But they need some destroyers with at least s300 on them. Small ships are good but can t replace destroyers. A project 21956 would cost maybe as much as 2 gorshkov because they don t use new tech so they could build them easily.

They have nato on the west, japan china and north corea on the east and retarded terorist on the south with Iranian ballistic program still alive. They need ship with powerdull radars to keep an eye on them. Ground based radar are fixed while ship based s300 can go around those countries and control them.

Its not just a fan boy discussion about WWIII. Their ground based radar are already watching those countries.

Bit its not really the discussion topic so I stop here.

Uragan and Taifun

Glad you were not offended Lsos.

I agree that in time they do need larger ships... small ships they can move through their inland canals that can carry long range land attack cruise missiles and bypass the INF treaty because the US insisted it not include air or sea based missiles, means they can attack most of NATO from rivers in Russia, but at the end of the day Russia needs to expand beyond its bases out into the world.

Right now they have a lot of destroyer sized vessels and a couple of cruisers from the cold war that have plenty of potential in terms of upgrades with new weapons and sensors and systems... I personally think upgrading those will buy them 10 years where they can perfect their technologies in terms of conventional and nuclear propulsion and also their larger radar sets and bigger SAM systems that they will need to adapt to the naval environment.

Producing smaller vessels means replacing older obsolete models with vessels comparable to cold war destroyers... a corvette armed with one UKSK launcher has the same main weapon fire power as a Sovremmeny class destroyer... in fact the 8 missiles it carries today outperform the Moskits the Sovs carried... Onyx with land attack capability is more flexible and much more powerful than the Moskit and it can also carry Klub and Calibr land attack missiles in the same tubes or even anti sub missiles... so in effect these corvettes can replace a sov class destroyer or a udaloy class destroyer with 8 91RE2s loaded in its UKSK tubes, and there was no Soviet vessel during the cold war that could carry 2,500km range land attack cruise missiles with a conventional warhead that could be used in conventional wars.

Their new air launched cruise missiles have a range of 5,500km, so a naval model with increased range should not be impossible either.

Upgrading existing vessels with UKSK launchers and new electronics and systems will greatly improve performance, while new build ships will have further advantages in even better propulsion and sensors and systems.

The point is that it will take time and there is no super urgent hurry because right now they have a cruiser and they have destroyers that no one wants to mess with right now.

The fact that they can't take on all of NATO right now is not important either... what do they actually have to fight them over right now anyway?

Georgia?

The Ukraine?

They can have both.

NATO bases in both countries would be very vulnerable to direct attack in any conflict... During WWII the Polish forces placed on the Polish border with Germany were obliterated quickly, as were French forces rushed to their border when their time came...

Another Karakurt laid down in Feodosia, name is Vikhr:

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/89104/

Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...

kumbor wrote:

GarryB wrote:Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...

But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

New ships have Sigma battle management system. So they don't need a sonar. Bigger ships will provide them the coordinate of a underwater target through datalinks in real time and they will lunch the 91RE1.

But it would be interesting to k ow if a small civilian sonar that should weight hundreds of kg which means nothing could detect a torpedo lunch to increase the defence awerness.

European navies can't even control russian ships passing near them. Last british destroyers are detectable at hundreds of km by sonars because of their very advanced technology that actually is total bullshit. German frigates are inclined and will be probably destroyed by waves if deployed in the north. New French and italian ships are very good but they have little of them and they operates with charles de gaulles for frenchies which means they will be targeted by aviation and antiships missles rather than anti sub capabilities so karakurt are very good for that.

US are sending most of their fleet in he pacific to counter the everyday growning chinese navy.

Russian ships are also growning in numbers and in technology. They include sigma system so it means it is a very capable sytem and already tested because it is deployed. Jamming this would meant the jamming source is close to the ships so they will be able to destroy it.

Yes but the point was about antiship capability.

No. I think when he asked about AS defence he was talking about ASW defence... ie anti sub, not anti ship.

But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

These are small vessels that wont be operating on their own in the north atlantic or north pacific for that matter.

They will generally operate in Russian waters and sea bed arrays should be sufficient to give them warning of threats or targets.

When hunting submarines they could easily operate unmanned sub vehicles with sonar and the helicopter they carry could use dipping sonar to find targets that could be engaged by the helicopter itself or rocket propelled torpedoes.

remember Rastrub on Karas and Udaloys - missiles with 50km+ range, and sonars that cannot track precisely at more that 10-20km).

Works both ways... the ASROC and SUBROC were supposed to be replaced by a missile called Sea Lance, but in the end the Soviet/Russian subs were getting their noise levels down to the point that without using active sonar as a matter of course the extra range of Sea Lance was useless because the extra range could not be exploited because Russian subs could not be reliably detected and identified at that extra range.

Karas and Udaloys also had helicopters that could find targets that could then be rapidly engaged by ship based weapons.

Russians hadn`t such a good coordination needed even in their heyday of early 80s.

First of all those were Soviet ships and each was custom designed for a mission except the very big ships that had multiple roles with a variety of weapons.

With the unification of launchers so anti ship and anti sub and now land attack missiles can be carried in mixtures in one unified launcher the new vessels are fully multirole so their sensors and equipment reflect that... one of the reasons why they are taking so long... in addition to problems with engines and SAMs.

Karakurt corvettes are dedicated antiship/groundattack/and even good AA vessels for their size. It was impossible to tailor good AS capability at the same time within such limited displacement.

Sub hunting is serious business and no single vessel would do it on its own... even in Soviet times the Udaloys would have Sovremmeny escorts and other vessels operating with them too.

Helicopters make vessels more flexible and having an anti sub helo on board gives it capabilities it would otherwise not have... variable depth sonar and the speed to move 30km away from the ship and have a look for an enemy sub that can be engaged directly from the ship by a 91E missile is a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with underwater threats if enemy subs are suspected.

Pantsir will be upgraded till 40km range and hypersonic missiles (~1800m/s) too.

The hypersonic models are supposed to reach 60km and in flat open sea environments would be rather more effective because of lack of hills or trees.

Second that. They are actually MRK - small rocket ships not corvettes in Russian naming convention. But true I'd love to see them having basic Paket for self defense and basic ASW tasks.

They are multirole vessels but can't be expert in every area... that is just silly to expect that... it would be like expecting a new pistol to replace assault rifle and sniper rifle and belt fed machine gun...

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