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So you think the same thing about fighter training too? Should we get rid of prop trainers and advanced jet trainers and just stick them in the cockpit of Su-35?
PapaDragon wrote:I just love when random online noobs try to teach veteran paratrooper about merits of different aircraft used for parachuting...
Vladimir79 wrote:eehnie wrote:
Spare parts market and second hand market can work still, and the Russian Armed Forces can take advantage of it, providing spare parts to the civil makets, but those who are purchasing one used An-2, very likely can not afford a new aircraft.
The main problem of these aircrafts in civil makets is the profitability. It is significantly easier to make a profitable service with the purchase of a very low cost used An-2, than with a new aircraft of the same cathegory.
This type of aircrafts are losing even the agricultural market for new units with the apparition of modern UAVs, that can be expensive in a first stage, but will have better price in the long term, because structurally the UAVs allow lower costs of production and operation.
I am having a hard time following your argument. You think that there is no market for relaunch of An-2 because a) helicopters are better and b) there are enough used An-2 they won't buy it? The market for used An-2 gets smaller every year and is quickly disappearing. The utility helicopters you advocate instead of it are several times more expensive and do not fill the same roles it is used for. Now you are advocating UAVs for crop dusting? Tell me which one has the capacity to do the job at the price? The only drones with that kind of payload are about 10X more expensive than the composite An-2 and that doesn't include the control station.
Vladimir79 wrote:eehnie wrote:With the time, with the exhaustion of the oldest aircrafts, it is likely that parachute training evolves to situations closer to the reality of the war operations.
So you think the same thing about fighter training too? Should we get rid of prop trainers and advanced jet trainers and just stick them in the cockpit of Su-35?
eehnie wrote:d_taddei2 wrote:...
You proved to have zero brain and to talk happily about what you know not, and you continue in your line. Nothing to save of your comments.
The orders of An-2 after 1970 were minimal.
Many designs wanted to be the successor of the An-2, but failed both for military and civil purposes. The concept is outdated.
For military purposes the An-2 has too low service ceiling. 4500m means the aircraft can not fly avoiding manpads.
Of course the units in service still are used, but in the refered to the Russian Armed Forces very likely are under exhaustion in the mid-term and will not have replacement with aircrafts of its size cathegory. In this aircraft cathegory helicopters dominate.
It is only $1.5m per unit, that is the selling point. There are many countries that cannot afford more but still need this capability.
The farms need it for its high capacity and slow speed. I could see the market go into the thousands. It is not a competitor of helicopters which comes at a much higher price. It is not ordered heavily today because it has outdated parts, this will fix that.
Can you explain me how the vehicles of the BMD-4(M) family will be used by the Russian Airborne Troops?
It is obvious that a real combat operation where the Russian Airborne Troops be involved today requires transport aircrafts of at least around 20 tons of payload (= transport aircrafts of the size cathegory of the An-10/12, that are also of the same size cathegory of the Su-Superjet airliner).
If you want you can ask to Vladimir79 which transport aircrafts were used for the training of parachuting with their armoured vehicles.
The case is different, totally different, because the An-2 was not designed for this purpose. The An-2 is doing this training job as secondary role, like the MiG-15 has been used in North Korea.
In the case of the parachute jump training, I doubt even about the need of this kind of aircrafts, because the operational costs per jump of using bigger aircrafts for training is likely to be smaller. As example, to do 100 training jumps with a bigger aircraft is only necessary one aircraft and one fly. To do 100 training jumps with An-2, around 10 flies of one or several aircrafts are required.
GarryB wrote:Many designs wanted to be the successor of the An-2, but failed both for military and civil purposes. The concept is outdated.
there is nothing wrong with the concept and the fact that this new aircraft has been developed shows it is still a requirement... it is just that nothing has solved all the problems in a simple affordable way... we don't know if this model will succeed either... that US engine might be too expensive or difficult to maintain...
GarryB wrote:For military purposes the An-2 has too low service ceiling. 4500m means the aircraft can not fly avoiding manpads.
The weak IR signature would make it a very difficult target from that range...
GarryB wrote:Of course the units in service still are used, but in the refered to the Russian Armed Forces very likely are under exhaustion in the mid-term and will not have replacement with aircrafts of its size cathegory. In this aircraft cathegory helicopters dominate.
The An-2 is vastly superior to helos and is able to operate from austere strips in very primitive conditions with basic maintainence and support.
GarryB wrote:A lot of previous attempts to replace the An-2 failed because they were too complicated or too expensive, or simply couldn't operate in the conditions the AN-2 can operate in.
GarryB wrote:The case is different, totally different, because the An-2 was not designed for this purpose. The An-2 is doing this training job as secondary role, like the MiG-15 has been used in North Korea.
The An-2 is used because it is ideal for the training role...
A composite version with better performance would be even better...
GarryB wrote:In the case of the parachute jump training, I doubt even about the need of this kind of aircrafts, because the operational costs per jump of using bigger aircrafts for training is likely to be smaller. As example, to do 100 training jumps with a bigger aircraft is only necessary one aircraft and one fly. To do 100 training jumps with An-2, around 10 flies of one or several aircrafts are required.
For a major exercise you might want hundreds or even thousands of jumpers, but during training you might only want a dozen to jump... there would be an enormous cost difference between an An-2 or variant and an An-12 or Il-476.
eehnie wrote:The man is even unable of exposing the words of others like they are. It is obvious his low understanding hability and his wish of distorting the words of others to hide its own inhability. Always obsesed with the less modern part of the Russian arsenals, always talking about weird options like if Russia would be Mali, and unable to see how Russia moves forward
franco wrote:MOSCOW, July 4 (Itar-Tass) - RIA Novosti. The number of models of weapons and military equipment decreased in the Armed Forces of Russia from 2014 from 3,900 to 2,600 items, follows from the materials of the Book of Records of the Armed Forces, published on Wednesday on the website of the Ministry of Defense.
"The type of weapons, military and special equipment of the Armed Forces developed in 2014 made it possible to reduce the branded composition of the weapons, military and special equipment fleet from 3.9 to 2.6 thousand samples," reads the materials of the RF Armed Forces Records Book.
It is noted that such a reduction made it possible to reduce the costs of maintenance of machinery.
eehnie wrote:Do you see how you distort the words? I said not you compared Russia to Mali. I said that with your obsession of talking about weird update options for really old material you talk about Russia like if it would be Mali.
The process of decommissioning armament and auxiliary material is real and is deep, as we can see in news like this.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t4072p50-older-warfare-performance-and-short-mid-term-decomissions#228905franco wrote:MOSCOW, July 4 (Itar-Tass) - RIA Novosti. The number of models of weapons and military equipment decreased in the Armed Forces of Russia from 2014 from 3,900 to 2,600 items, follows from the materials of the Book of Records of the Armed Forces, published on Wednesday on the website of the Ministry of Defense.
"The type of weapons, military and special equipment of the Armed Forces developed in 2014 made it possible to reduce the branded composition of the weapons, military and special equipment fleet from 3.9 to 2.6 thousand samples," reads the materials of the RF Armed Forces Records Book.
It is noted that such a reduction made it possible to reduce the costs of maintenance of machinery.
A reduction of the composition of the Russian arsenals fromm 3900 to 2600 different items, means the total decommission of 1300 items since 2014. Just 1/3 of them, a 33.333%. And some items more will follow in the short-term and the mid-term.
This is real, and something that you still assumed not. Many of the weapons (and their ammunition) for which you are finding always weird options are totally exhausted at this point in the arsenals of Russia. You will need to propose them to countries like Mali.
In the refered to the aircrafts, you can prepare yourself for the total decommission in the following years of the Be-6/12, Mi-6/10/22, An-22, L-39, An-2 and surely something else of foreign origin. Do not blame me.
If you see some of these aircrafts present in the Russian Armed Forces after the end of 2025, you will be able to say I was wrong on something.
If you see some of the aircrafts marked in blue or purble in the list, in which Im including the TVS-2DTS, surpassing 50 units produced completed, you will be able to say I was wrong on something.
If you see the Russian production of the L-410 to surpass 50 units produced completed, you will be able to say that I was wrong on something.
If you see the Diamond DAt2 or other of the aircrafts marked in blue in the previous list, officially adopted and entering the Russian Armed Forces you will be able to say that I was wrong on something.
And you will have also more opportunities for land and sea based material.
But is unlikely you will find big mistakes in my words, because unlike you I know a little of what Im talking about. You has been insulting me in several comments, do not expect kind words from me.
eehnie wrote:
Still unable to see that if some item is totally exhausted Russia, and is out of production since decades, there is nothing to export.
Better if you apply your forum behaviour lessons to yourself, before to insult me again.
d_taddei2 wrote:eehnie wrote:
Still unable to see that if some item is totally exhausted Russia, and is out of production since decades, there is nothing to export.
Better if you apply your forum behaviour lessons to yourself, before to insult me again.
Eehnie you just back up everything I've said about you. That you fail to answer questions fail to accept when you're wrong fail to see your the obsessed one. You always fail accept advice of those who know. I however don't act like this and it's very clear that I don't. You still fail to see reason and think your right 100% all the time when in FACT your not. It's fine keep lying to yourself it doesn't bother me that you live a deluded life on here. Everything I've said about you is true and factual and everyone can see it. You fail to compromise which is another clear indication of your superior complex. So eehnie why won't you answer the simple questions? ???????
Because you know that the true answers are not what you care to admit. You answer what you want and fail to answer or acknowledge other questions this is very clear in your posts
eehnie wrote:d_taddei2 wrote:eehnie wrote:
Still unable to see that if some item is totally exhausted Russia, and is out of production since decades, there is nothing to export.
Better if you apply your forum behaviour lessons to yourself, before to insult me again.
Eehnie it's you who is the ignorant one you clearly display this all the time not me. You completely fail to answer the simplest of questions but rather be selective if what you see. You continue to ignore ex servicemens advice and experienceS and believe that youran expert in everything you obviously have a superior complex which goes as far as blocking out everyone else's advice and makes you to not see or accept compromises and resolutions which you have displayed on this thread many times. Quite frankly it's becoming boring speaking to you it's like speaking to deluded drunkard having to repeat the same question without getting answer. You really are a deluded idiot and you complain about insults but you think it's ok for you to do them to others as I have seen to do to other members yet again this fits into your profile of your illness. I am done speaking to you and will happily ignore your comments you in fact destroy this forum with your drivel and destroy any reasoning or healthy debate with your superior complex as well as discredit ex servicemen you constantly do this you in any of your posts always have to disagree argue and have never admitted when you're wrong and never acceptedadvice this is fact. You should be ashamed at discrediting ex servicemens advice they have served you havent
Eehnie you just back up everything I've said about you. That you fail to answer questions fail to accept when you're wrong fail to see your the obsessed one. You always fail accept advice of those who know. I however don't act like this and it's very clear that I don't. You still fail to see reason and think your right 100% all the time when in FACT your not. It's fine keep lying to yourself it doesn't bother me that you live a deluded life on here. Everything I've said about you is true and factual and everyone can see it. You fail to compromise which is another clear indication of your superior complex. So eehnie why won't you answer the simple questions? ???????
Because you know that the true answers are not what you care to admit. You answer what you want and fail to answer or acknowledge other questions this is very clear in your posts
You are ridiculizing yourself until limits difficul to reach.
You are really good showing your outstanding ignorance.
You only have been cheerleading wrong arguments, and you pretend to force me to do the same.
Better if you go to study something.
I keep forgetting eehnie that your also expert businessman and market analysis. All hail the Oracle.eehnie wrote:You are unable to dentify who has and who has not proper knowledge about what we are talking about. Vladimir79 knows not how to do a proper market analysis. He proved it with his comments. The importance of the real demand is key. If the projections of future demand agree not with the real demand of the last years and even decades, there is a problem. Oversized projections of future demand are very habitual in failed business.
My words prove my knowledge and your words prove your ignorance. This is a reality of which you will not escape.
You only know to parrot stupid things and to insult. You can continue clowning yourself.
d_taddei2 wrote:.....
I believe that you said that it wont reach above 50 units (TVS 2DTS )produced time will tell. So Let's leave this an-2 and TVS 2DTS debate here. As you disagree with me and everyone else and we disagree with you on the subjects talked about. I am happy to end it like that. And time will tell who was right or wrong.
PapaDragon wrote:d_taddei2 wrote:.....
I believe that you said that it wont reach above 50 units (TVS 2DTS )produced time will tell. So Let's leave this an-2 and TVS 2DTS debate here. As you disagree with me and everyone else and we disagree with you on the subjects talked about. I am happy to end it like that. And time will tell who was right or wrong.
50 units?
They already have over 200 of them ordered.
Also, new name of that aircraft is Baikal.
I given up speaking to him on the subject he doesn't or should I say can't process the acceptance of others views and experienceexperiences. But that's his choice.d_taddei2 wrote:I keep forgetting eehnie that your also expert businessman and market analysis. All hail the Oracle.eehnie wrote:You are unable to dentify who has and who has not proper knowledge about what we are talking about. Vladimir79 knows not how to do a proper market analysis. He proved it with his comments. The importance of the real demand is key. If the projections of future demand agree not with the real demand of the last years and even decades, there is a problem. Oversized projections of future demand are very habitual in failed business.
My words prove my knowledge and your words prove your ignorance. This is a reality of which you will not escape.
You only know to parrot stupid things and to insult. You can continue clowning yourself.
Yet again fail to answer questions because of your superior complex getting in the way this is now complete fact. Keep lying to yourself you are the clown who thinks he knows best.You even failed to read people's responses. Nobody expected it (TVS 2DTS ) to get to the same numbers of An -2 the whole discussion was on its usefulness and that a replacement was needed as well as talking about the NEW aircraft. I like I have mentioned before (not you notice with your illness) that time will tell if they produce the 200 mentioned but I and many others agree it's usefulness and that the TVS 2DTS is the replacement. You are the only one who thinks everyone else is completely wrong and knows nothing whatsoever and you are the only one who knows best. This has now become very evident and you simply cannot process that your not expert and that others may know more than you or that their experiences even count. Stop thinking you are the guru at everything because of your views and opinions. And actually listen to what some people who have experience or knowledge on. You might actually learn something. You just dismiss everything that people say because you don't agree. Your not ex services and maybe you should listen to experiences people have and learn something. You can have your views and opinions which is fine and so can others but when it comes to factual information don't let your opinions cloud the factual information being given. I've learnt quite a few things from GarryB who had knowledge in something that I had limited knowledge in. I listened and learned. Don't think you can't learn anything from anyone on this forum because you can. Stop thinking that after reading a handful of articles your any expert and everyone else is wrong.
I believe that you said that it wont reach above 50 units (TVS 2DTS )produced time will tell. So Let's leave this an-2 and TVS 2DTS debate here. As you disagree with me and everyone else and we disagree with you on the subjects talked about. I am happy to end it like that. And time will tell who was right or wrong.
eehnie wrote:d_taddei2 wrote:I keep forgetting eehnie that your also expert businessman and market analysis. All hail the Oracle.eehnie wrote:You are unable to dentify who has and who has not proper knowledge about what we are talking about. Vladimir79 knows not how to do a proper market analysis. He proved it with his comments. The importance of the real demand is key. If the projections of future demand agree not with the real demand of the last years and even decades, there is a problem. Oversized projections of future demand are very habitual in failed business.
My words prove my knowledge and your words prove your ignorance. This is a reality of which you will not escape.
You only know to parrot stupid things and to insult. You can continue clowning yourself.
Yet again fail to answer questions because of your superior complex getting in the way this is now complete fact. Keep lying to yourself you are the clown who thinks he knows best.You even failed to read people's responses. Nobody expected it (TVS 2DTS ) to get to the same numbers of An -2 the whole discussion was on its usefulness and that a replacement was needed as well as talking about the NEW aircraft. I like I have mentioned before (not you notice with your illness) that time will tell if they produce the 200 mentioned but I and many others agree it's usefulness and that the TVS 2DTS is the replacement. You are the only one who thinks everyone else is completely wrong and knows nothing whatsoever and you are the only one who knows best. This has now become very evident and you simply cannot process that your not expert and that others may know more than you or that their experiences even count. Stop thinking you are the guru at everything because of your views and opinions. And actually listen to what some people who have experience or knowledge on. You might actually learn something. You just dismiss everything that people say because you don't agree. Your not ex services and maybe you should listen to experiences people have and learn something. You can have your views and opinions which is fine and so can others but when it comes to factual information don't let your opinions cloud the factual information being given. I've learnt quite a few things from GarryB who had knowledge in something that I had limited knowledge in. I listened and learned. Don't think you can't learn anything from anyone on this forum because you can. Stop thinking that after reading a handful of articles your any expert and everyone else is wrong.
I believe that you said that it wont reach above 50 units (TVS 2DTS )produced time will tell. So Let's leave this an-2 and TVS 2DTS debate here. As you disagree with me and everyone else and we disagree with you on the subjects talked about. I am happy to end it like that. And time will tell who was right or wrong.
You can continue making a clown of yourself.
Everyone that learned enough in an engineering school, to pass an Industry Engineering M.Sc. program of 5 years in the university oriented to economic management, and learned about economic management, management of the production, marketing, strategic management, quality management, in adition to a strong program on mathematics, statistic, mechanical engineering and electric and electronic engineering, knows that what I say is right from a technical and economic point.
Your words instead are empty of knowledge. You will not escape to this reality.
As example, why are you even talking about the TVS 2DTS project in the Defense section of this forum if it is a civil project that includes a US engine that makes the aircraft not apt for the Russian Armed Forces?
Obviously you expected this aircraft reaching the Russian Armed Forces like presented. Everything you say shows your ignorance.
d_taddei2 wrote:Your rIghtfield anyone who attended such school will have those skills and your not one of them. And if one did say anything you would of course challenge them because of your illness. You also forgot business management and market research skills of which you also have none. And you also continue to fail to read the original post because of your illness I think it's about time you got some treatment. Because your the only clown on this forum in fact you're the court jester of the forum. You really do make me laugh with your deluded belief that your right and everyone else is wrong. You just copy and paste drivel. And think it's gospel because you posted it..
eehnie wrote:d_taddei2 wrote:Your rIghtfield anyone who attended such school will have those skills and your not one of them. And if one did say anything you would of course challenge them because of your illness. You also forgot business management and market research skills of which you also have none. And you also continue to fail to read the original post because of your illness I think it's about time you got some treatment. Because your the only clown on this forum in fact you're the court jester of the forum. You really do make me laugh with your deluded belief that your right and everyone else is wrong. You just copy and paste drivel. And think it's gospel because you posted it..
This comment is again consequence of your complete ignorance. Never bored of showing your ignorance.
Your insults are not allowed, your ignorace will be exposed as deep as it is.
What means a US engine in a project like this?
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