Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3

Russian Soyuz-ST missile with French satellite takes off Guiana Space Center

PARIS, December 29. /TASS/. The Russian Soyuz-ST missile with French CSO-2 reconnaissance satellite successfully took off the Kourou Cosmodrome in French Guiana. The start was livestreamed at the website of Arianespace, space launch operator.

https://tass.com/science/1241077

George1 wrote:

Russian space agency expects Vostochny to start operating at full capacity next year

https://tass.com/science/1241187

One more year without any launch failures.     Here's hoping that the brain-drain induced spate of accidents, manufacturing faults and human errors are now a thing of the past.  

One more year without any launch failures.     Here's hoping that the brain-drain induced spate of accidents, manufacturing faults and human errors are now a thing of the past.  

And sabotage of course. You can't count that out.

I think that there will always be a non-zero chance for failure. But there were probably measures deployed to prevent the
sort of sabotage that brought down the Proton rocket a few years ago. Hammering a component into place upside down
is likely much harder now. The way that rocket failed was rather distinctive compared to the sorts of failures one sees
around the world.

https://english.pravda.ru/science/145473-russia_space/

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://english.pravda.ru/science/145473-russia_space/

Total BS. Russia can do its space program at whatever pace it wants. It should by no means engage in any sort
or race with NATzO. Let Ameri-tards reach Mars and take a poop there. Who the f*ck should care. These
are economically pointless stunts. There is no evidence that in terms of technology Russia is falling behind.
So the insinuation that it should engage in propaganda space races with its enemies is simply retarded.

NATzO should try and catch up with nuclear propulsion. When America sends its inertial guidance trip to Mars,
Russia should send an unmanned exploration mission using nuclear propulsion, get to Marsh in under two months
and come back before "America triumphantly lands on Mars".

Ameri-tards and their sycophants can then wank themselves senseless with having the "first <gender fluid> on Mars".
Like it matters today that Ameri-tards claimed they had men on the Moon. But feel the need to mooch Moon regolith
off of China while claiming to have 380 kilograms of it collected during their Apollo missions.

https://iz.ru/1107164/2020-12-31/v-rossii-sobrali-maket-kosmicheskogo-korablia-orel-dlia-staticheskikh-ispytanii

Now it's mostly a race between US & China to the Moon & Mars. Russia is the 3rd.

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://iz.ru/1107164/2020-12-31/v-rossii-sobrali-maket-kosmicheskogo-korablia-orel-dlia-staticheskikh-ispytanii

Now it's mostly a race between US & China to the Moon & Mars. Russia is the 3rd.

Just stop talking this nonsense. China has just been able to repeat the achievement that Russia made 50 years ago. China is building its program based on the Soviet technological base. The United States is still at the level of loud statements that they are about to conquer the Galaxy. The real race will be held not on the subject of who will be able to stick their flag in the lunar regolith - but on the subject of who will be the first to realize the real involvement of space and planets in the earth's economy and embedding this space in their production chains.
It is obvious that the idea of "joint" space exploration has failed - from now on, each great power develops its space technologies with one important goal: to ensure national security and technological leadership. At the same time, the PR programs of each country choose the goals of this "race" that are convenient only for them.

The goals of the Russian space program are to provide independent access to space: both the production and launch of unmanned vehicles and manned ones that provide the full range of required functions necessary for monitoring and research of near-Earth space and the Earth. At the moment, Russia is ensuring the implementation of these tasks.

In addition, projects are being developed that will provide a qualitative leap in technology and, accordingly, opportunities. Imagine twenty-ton platforms in geostationary orbit with a megawatt power supply - what will be their capabilities relative to existing satellite platforms? What if it's a network of nuclear-pumped orbital lasers, huh? So: Russia is the only country on Earth that has come close to implementing such technologies. Everyone else is 10-15 years behind.

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, but even the December launch of the Angara-A5 could be used to launch any prototype of such devices into geostationary orbit - you still won't know the truth until you are confronted with the fact that Russia has such technologies. This was just an example, but I will remind you that the existence of such developments as "Peresvet","Poseidon","Dagger " - you learned mainly through media reports authorized for distribution.

What exploded at the landfill near the village of Nenoksa? What is the status of anti-satellite weapons development? What projects are being developed on the basis of a nuclear reactor with a capacity of megawatts or more? We won't know for sure in the next 5-15 years, probably.

The above post confirms what I'm saying: this is the round 2 of the space race, as the US was just sending probes out since the the Apollo 14, while China is steadily working to send taikonauts to the Moon.
How is Russia going to exploit its resources w/o sending any1 there to set up bases & processing facilities? I doubt her cosmonauts will get there before either of them.

I think Russia should focus on space stations and other useful projects while everyone else suffers casualties to attempted interplanetary missions with primitive technology.

The other thing they should do is to continue to work towards new engine types so that they will be the first to have a proper interstellar engine (the development of which may take well over 1000 years). The nuclear space tugs are the real achievement of modern space travel and yet the space circus is all that gets attention.

The only way Russia can avoid being overtaken by China in Space is by taking risks and investing in missions, first in probes and then in manned ones. This will give her a valuable experience and a boost in confidence as the technical prowess and industrial base is already there. This in turn will lead to innovation and ingenious solutions to mission scenarios. The nuclear space tug is a good start as it leverages an existing strength in compact nuclear reactor technology.
Less this, China will surely overtake it sometime in the near future. It may be using salvaged Soviet tech now and tomorrow. But this will progressively change as is the  case in everything China does. Look at it's automobile industry. It used to copy old Soviet trucks after the war. Then it started copying western vehicles and is now starting to forge its own path, specifically in electric cars. Now it is Russia who  needs  to copy Chinese cars. The space industry is no different.

Tsavo Lion wrote: The above post confirms what I'm saying: this is the round 2 of the space race, as the US was just sending probes out since the the Apollo 14, while China is steadily working to send taikonauts to the Moon.
How is Russia going to exploit its resources w/o sending any1 there to set up bases & processing facilities? I doubt her cosmonauts will get there before either of them.

Daniel_Admassu wrote:The only way Russia can avoid being overtaken by China in Space is by taking risks and investing in missions, first in probes and then in manned ones. This will give her a valuable experience and a boost in confidence as the technical prowess and industrial base is already there. This in turn will lead to innovation and ingenious solutions to mission scenarios. The nuclear space tug is a good start as it leverages an existing strength in compact nuclear reactor technology.
Less this, China will surely overtake it sometime in the near future. It may be using salvaged Soviet tech now and tomorrow. But this will progressively change as is the  case in everything China does. Look at it's automobile industry. It used to copy old Soviet trucks after the war. Then it started copying western vehicles and is now starting to forge its own path, specifically in electric cars. Now it is Russia who  needs  to copy Chinese cars. The space industry is no different.

Such ignorant neglect has led to the collapse of more than one civilization. Let's remember the technologically advanced empires: the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the French Empire, Germany and Austria-Hungary. They were all the leading technological powers of their time - and where are they now? China was the most technologically advanced in Asia for a long time of its existence, but did this prevent its destruction many times? In the end, Chinese self-confidence and pride brought their country to almost complete destruction and turned into a Western colony. If it were not for the help of the USSR, the current China simply would not exist.

But now you do not have such a powerful patron as the USSR, and Chinese technologies are experiencing obvious problems with independent innovative developments in such industries as space technology, aviation, metallurgy and many other critical areas. China has come close to a crisis situation, and you are still confident about the future, as if China will continue to be given the ideal conditions for growth in the future.
Have you learned nothing from history?

Space races do not produce real technological progress. The link is simply nonsense. We have all sorts of idiots today fawning
over the F-1 rocket engine as if it was the greatest creation of all time. It sucked ass. The Isp was crap and the RD-170 and
its new variants are on a whole other level. These fanbois ask why America cannot such a great engine as the F-1 again.

And where is the US nuclear spacecraft program? Russia went through the worst depression in modern history and changed
systems on the fly but kept working on the megawatt class nuclear rocket engine during the 1990s. It has a viable design
today and will build it before 2030. This is not US-style PR hot air. The research and design work really is done.

Space races are suited for the US and its corrupt system where government money is siphoned as fast as possible for all
sorts of projects. Leech profit comes first. Compromise designs due to artificial time pressure are always suboptimal and
as we see with the F-1, J-2 and the Saturn V are abandoned. The RD-170 series is used to this day and remains world
leading. The N-1 rocket is another example of hurried, politically driven development. Just a huge waste of resources.

But now you do not have such a powerful patron as the USSR, and Chinese technologies are experiencing obvious problems with independent innovative developments in such industries as space technology, aviation, metallurgy and many other critical areas. China has come close to a crisis situation, and you are still confident about the future, as if China will continue to be given the ideal conditions for growth in the future.
Have you learned nothing from history?

Well, China hasn't looked up to the USSR since like the 70s. All it did was copy its products for quick access to development. In industries like military aviation and space it still tries to copy Russia for no other reason than because it simply is the best. However, in almost all others it has long been copying Japan and the west. And it had paid off, as they have mastered, if not excelled at, most sophisticated tech the west has to offer. I don't know why space or aviation engine technology should be any different. It is just a matter of time as they involve material technology and complex thermal modeling know-how that you can't just rip off. But I believe that they will get there given time and enough funds.

It is similar to the mechanical engineering and instrumentation industry of the germans. German industrial culture held on its hands-on approach to precision engineering instead of outsourcing everything like the French or others did. This paid off hugely by the time Chinese industry was expanding rapidly thanks to the outsourced manufacturing from the United States and Europe, and China needed all the factory automation it could get. And China could not easily copy the hands-on precision engineering know how of the germans. At one point they were known as the factory of Chinese factories. But now slowly but inexorably the Chinese have gotten there. They are making more and more of their own machines and what they can't copy, they buy out. Do you know that they are now the owners of Kuka Robotics? That company is simply the world's best in precision automation.

Look, I resent Chinese ripping off of others as much as the next guy. But that doesn't mean we have to go for reality denial. The best days of China may or may not be behind them. That knowledge sure calls for a wizard. But looking at the path that it came along and the economic momentum it has built, do you really think a technology gap in one industry or another is going to be a hurdle for China for long?

Daniel_Admassu wrote:
Look, I resent Chinese ripping off of others as much as the next guy.

Sorry, but the Chinese aren't ripping anyone off (well, no more than is normal in a global competitive marketplace).  The Chinese have got where they are today by crystal-clear strategtic vision, hard work, discipline, patience and a thick skin for the slings and arrows of arrogant foreigners who look down on them and exploit them for cheap labour.  This recent intensification of the pushback against China is symptomatic of a corrupt and feckless Western ruling establishment who have suddenly woken up to the reality that China is becoming a powerhouse in all the important hard-power metrics and that the West has lost its comptetive edge.  They are frankly TERRIFIED that the much-vaunted exceptionalist Western Civilisation has reaching its zenith and are in decline just as China is hitting its stride and heading to the global No1 slot.  

Well, I say FUCK 'EM. Our elites had their opportunity to cement the West as global leaders, but they blew it by being greedy agressive arrogant murderous bastards.  It will be interesting to see if the Chinese can maintain their alternative governance style when they claim the mantle of Top Dog.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Daniel_Admassu wrote:
Look, I resent Chinese ripping off of others as much as the next guy.

Sorry, but the Chinese aren't ripping anyone off (well, no more than is normal in a global competitive marketplace).  The Chinese have got where they are today by crystal-clear strategtic vision, hard work, discipline, patience and a thick skin for the slings and arrows of arrogant foreigners who look down on them and exploit them for cheap labour.  This recent intensification of the pushback against China is symptomatic of a corrupt and feckless Western ruling establishment who have suddenly woken up to the reality that China is becoming a powerhouse in all the important hard-power metrics and that the West has lost its comptetive edge.  They are frankly TERRIFIED that the much-vaunted exceptionalist Western Civilisation has reaching its zenith and are in decline just as China is hitting its stride and heading to the global No1 slot.  

Well, I say FUCK 'EM. Our elites had their opportunity to cement the West as global leaders, but they blew it by being greedy agressive arrogant murderous bastards.  It will be interesting to see if the Chinese can maintain their alternative governance style when they claim the mantle of Top Dog.

Well, China actually got the rights to develop Mir modules. Hence how China kinda moved into the space race pretty quick. Much like how China did copy the design of Soyuz, MiG 1.42, Su-33/30/27, etc. No, China didn't persevere like you think they have without copying.

This is nothing new- the Mongols adopted many things from China to bring them to the borders of the Holy Roman Empire; later the Japanese started to Westernize & avoided their subjugation till 1945. China is doing what others done before her.

Tsavo Lion wrote:This is nothing new- the Mongols adopted many things from China to bring them to the borders of the Holy Roman Empire; later the Japanese started to Westernize & avoided their subjugation till 1945. China is doing what others done before her.

It's not that simple. The copy culture has resulted in a lack of innovation and development of real knowhow. This can be seen in the
case of Japan. For an economic "superpower" its R&D is second rate. China is following down the same path and it shows. Eventually
things will normalize. But copy-pasting is not a good development strategy. The USSR is proof of this. It developed in-house
solutions. China was copying the USSR and is still doing this including new designs form Russia while trash talking about Russian
products. China is well past being underdeveloped but shows not much sign of developing unique in-house solutions. Western
pathological liars and their claims about the USSR "stealing" and "copying" are pure nonsense such as the retarded accusation that
the Tu-95 is a ripoff of the B-29. Americans never had engines like the NK-12.

WikiCrapia tries to attribute the Soviet achievements to German research and scientists. That does not explain why America couldn't
achieve the same as the 1957 Sputnik launch even though it got the best German rocket designers and engineers and had them
work directly on developing its rockets. The usual racist western excrement where supposedly Russians don't have the science and
engineering base to develop any technology such as "fracking". Even though Soviet and Russian research on hydraulic fracturing
dynamics for different types of fluid compositions has been published in peer reviewed journals for decades and Gazprom has been
using its own technology in the Bazhenov formation for many years when the need to develop tight oil and gas plays appeared.

The copy culture has resulted in a lack of innovation and development of real knowhow.

since the West been ahead of them, it was unavoidable. OTH, many Chinese inventions were adopted & copied by others in the last 2K+ years.
More recently, the 1st AWACS plane was the Soviet Tu-126 based on the Tu-114 based on the Tu-95 based on the Tu-4/80/85 based on the B-29.

Eventually things will normalize.

exactly- they had a head start & now have a base with relevant know-how upon which to develop their own products.

There is nothing wrong with "copying", even if the use of that phrase carries with it a vieled accusation of theft/subterfuge. The alternative, ie not developing a technology cuz someone else "built it first" is just plain stupid. It makes eminant sense to be inspired to emulate a technological solution that someone else has proved, as long as the emulation is developed using domestic technologies and design/manufacturing methodolies.

I'd hold the Soviet Buran as an example. The Soviet military wanted a direct equlivalent of the US Shuttle as a counterbalance to its military potential (and it DID have potential as an orbital weapons platform, regardless of the BS denial by Western 'experts'). The Buran was broadly comparable to Shuttle (and was an improvement in many respects) and while the orbiter had a very similar general arrangement to the US vehicle, the engineering under the skin was 100% Soviet indiginous. It was not a "copy".

Big_Gazza wrote:There is nothing wrong with "copying", even if the use of that phrase carries with it a vieled accusation of theft/subterfuge.  The alternative, ie not developing a technology cuz someone else "built it first" is just plain stupid.  It makes eminant sense to be inspired to emulate a technological solution that someone else has proved, as long as the emulation is developed using domestic technologies and design/manufacturing methodolies.  

I'd hold the Soviet Buran as an example. The Soviet military wanted a direct equlivalent of the US Shuttle as a counterbalance to its military potential (and it DID have potential as an orbital weapons platform, regardless of the BS denial by Western 'experts').  The Buran was broadly comparable to Shuttle (and was an improvement in many respects) and while the orbiter had a very similar general arrangement to the US vehicle, the engineering under the skin was 100% Soviet indiginous. It was not a "copy".

The Buran cannot be placed in the same category as Chinese copying. The USSR did not see the Shuttle and decided to make a copy. It already
had the design from the 1960s and the developed precursor technology such as the ceramic tiles. The first Buran flight did not involve the shedding
of multiple tiles like afflicted the US Shuttle early launches. America cannot claim credit for anything outside of pushing this concept into realization.

By contrast, China makes knockoffs. Such as the high speed trains where it licenses the IP from foreign companies and then rips it off.
None of these arguments in favour of copying account for the lack development of the research and design base. Assigning engineers
to make copies is not the same thing as coming up with indigenous designs. Eventually there will be the development of a base but
it is taking a very long time. Nowhere near as fast as in the USSR.

By contrast, China makes knockoffs.

which she later changes/improves for her needs, like J-7, Y-7/8/9, Yuan SSK, & H-6, to name a few.