India and Russia joint military projects: News

GarryB wrote:

They didn't sign the contract about the kamov helicopter local production. They will just buy 60 of them directly in Russia

Purchase of Ka-226 has been cancelled because Ka-226 is powered by a French engine and CAATSA sanctions mean France won't export those engines to Russia.

Those two statements contradict each other... if India are going to buy from Russia then what engine will they use?

I'm only quoting local media. Here is a link- India's "deep state" themselves suggested that Ka 226 is now stuck because of U.S sanctions.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/1477613316290019329?s=20

I will accept it, my use of the word "cancelled" in the previous post was incorrect. Maybe there is still a chance. However, Russia will have to find a Russian engine that can power the Ka-226.

I personally find Klimov to be a bit of a mixed bag really. They fumbled around with the VK-800 for years with no end in sight.

Could possibly have been a little busy with the more important work of getting the new more powerful engine used in most Russian helicopters that replaced the engines formerly supplied by Motor Sich... not to mention the small jet engines for the new Russian jet trainers going too of course...

The Ka-27, Ka-50, Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-24 helicopter engines not only needed support but new replacement engines at the same time so making a new engine for the Ka-226 probably wasn't up very high on their priority list when supporting the engine the vast majority of Russian helicopters use and making an upgraded improved replacement for that engine might have kept them a little busy.

Their TV7-117 flamed out and caused the crash of the single Il-112 prototype.

Only one of them flamed out and if the auto feathering system had worked properly it should not have crashed at all.

New engines sometimes have issues.

On the other hand they seem to have been able to get VK-2500 engine production going and even got the Al-222 engine in production.

Almost like they had priorities that did not include the Ka-226... not a huge surprise really considering.

So they seem capable of producing Soviet era engine and even tweaking them somewhat like with the RD-33 variants.

You seem to think they show us everything they are doing... there is a plan for a 5th gen MiG-35 replacement that would need an RD-33 like engine in the 10-12 ton thrust range, which might be a 5th gen RD-33 or it might be a different engine... either way why do you think they would be telling us all about it?

But their new engine designs have been a bit of a bust so far.

China and Pakistan seem happy to put their RD-93 in a single engined fighter... suggests some confidence doesn't it?

I hope they get someone from Salyut/Saturn to clean house there or something like what happened at Aviadvigatel.

After all the years Saturn has been fucking around with ship propulsion systems I don't think they will be teaching anyone any time soon...

Otherwise the much vaunted VK-800 and VK-1600 efforts might flounder.

So what if they do... right now the VK-2500 and AI-222 are more important.

I'm only quoting local media. Here is a link- India's "deep state" themselves suggested that Ka 226 is now stuck because of U.S sanctions.

Are you going to cancel all upgrades to the Su-30MKI and also purchases of the S-400?

Because they are going to involve sanctions too...

And of course when you let the US dictate to you what you can or cannot buy your options wont get better, but they will get simpler...

Russia to supply, license production of Igla anti-aircraft missiles to India

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/russia-to-supply-license-production-of-igla-anti-aircraft-missiles-to-india-tass/articleshow/105206495.cms

They will be replacing their Igla missiles with Igla-S missiles, which are improved in several ways including the addition of a proximity fuse so it can engage small targets like drones and missiles.

India is buying a few thousand missiles and it going to produce them in India, which is something I have been suggesting for a long time.

The Made in India programme is a good idea but you have to be sensible about it.

Making heavy 5th gen fighters you might only end up making 200 or 300 aircraft is a bad deal, the costs of setting up production wont be covered by the costs so your 200 to 300 aircraft are probably going to be very expensive compared with buying them from Russia.

The "make them yourself" idea works best for things you need enormous numbers of... you don't make expensive low production rate things, you make important things you need in enormous numbers.

Igla-S and Kornet-EM missiles are excellent missiles but they become even more potent when you have them in enormous numbers. If you buy 5,000 Iglas and 10,000 Kornets then you have a good weapon but spreading it out along the borders with China and with Pakistan you are not going to have a lot per kilometre...

If you licence produce them and make 100,000 Iglas and 100,000 Kornets you basically can cover the battlefield with plenty of weapons that you have so many of you can use against drones and targets that are not the original intended target like light vehicles and bunkers and a part of a trench the enemy have set up a heavy machine gun.

Having enormous numbers of missiles means long term work for your people and a ready supply of two weapons that will make an enemy suffer if they try to use helicopters and drones and low flying aircraft or armoured vehicles against you.

In the mountains near China you can see from one mountain side to the other but most of the time it will be 5 or 6km away so small arms fire and HMG fire and automatic grenade launchers are totally useless... having a 10km range guided anti tank missile with a HE payload is useful.

An artillery vehicle like a four wheel Tigr like vehicle with a 120mm gun/mortar on its back would be useful too.

The point is that there are weapons you need in enormous numbers and they are the weapons you should be making yourself, because despite setting up production, it is a fixed cost, so the more products you make there the more you divide the price of production with the number of items produced the costs get cheaper and cheaper and things like wages remain in your economy instead of going to someone else to make them.

The war in the Ukraine highlights the power of artillery and drones and India should invest in boosting funding for those as well.

GarryB wrote:The Made in India programme is a good idea but you have to be sensible about it.

Making heavy 5th gen fighters you might only end up making 200 or 300 aircraft is a bad deal, the costs of setting up production wont be covered by the costs so your 200 to 300 aircraft are probably going to be very expensive compared with buying them from Russia.

In this regards, things are making progress. India's Sasaa Electronics Private Limited will begin assembling Russian unmanned aerial systems. They have signed a deal today

https://sputniknews.in/20231115/indias-sasaa-electronics-to-start-assembling-russian-drones-in-march-2024-ceo-5412813.html

Another interesting development - Russia and India are now discussing joint production of aircraft weapons. Kh-59MK2 is also on offer.

https://www.livemint.com/news/world/russia-india-discussing-joint-production-of-aircraft-weapons-11699928966385.html

Great news, and of course after making a few million drones and a few thousand missiles they can use the facilities to develop and make their own drones and weapons too. Designs that suit their own needs and wants.

GarryB wrote:They will be replacing their Igla missiles with Igla-S missiles, which are improved in several ways including the addition of a proximity fuse so it can engage small targets like drones and missiles.

Ideally India should have gone for the Verba.

Are you saying Russia brought about improvements in the 9K38 missile because like any other MANPAD that's the only missile that Igla S will fire?

Verba has 3 wave band optical homer it uses a sensor that can see IR light, visible light, and UV light to home in on a target. Verba's optical tri-band (or trehspektralnaya) operates in the ultraviolet, near-infrared and mid-infrared range. This allows the user to get more information about the purpose of making complex "selective" weapon.

Igla-S do not have these features.

If you want to produce them in volume you don't want them to be brand new state of the art expensive.

Putting Igla-S into mass production makes sense because you can make enormous numbers... and over the next five years you can buy Verba for special situations where the extra performance might make some difference, but in 4-5 years you swap over to production of Verba and that gives you a large base of good decent MANPADS and also a supply of modern MANPADS every bit as good as any anywhere else in the world.

I would also suggest you licence produce Pine, or Sosna, because being a laser beam riding missile the target would have serious trouble defeating the missile with flares and chaff and even DIRCMs because the missile does not look at the launcher, it looks back a the launcher for a laser beam that it rides on and it moves at significant speed and can reach targets 10km away.

The missile is very fast and relatively cheap with optics being used to find and track targets... you could probably develop a version with a MMW radar that can track the target and perhaps direct the missile via radar signals like Khrisantema for use in Monsoon rain or snow or brown out dust or sand storms.

Or you could add Khrisantema to your licence production family...

Anti vehicle and anti aircraft weapons and drones.

GarryB wrote: An artillery vehicle like a four wheel Tigr like vehicle with a 120mm gun/mortar on its back would be useful too.

Yes that's a good suggestion but for the time being a local option is available.

India to purchase Pantsir-S1 from Russia

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/bdl-signs-mou-with-russias-rosoboronexport-for-collaboration-on-pantsir-air-defence-systems/articleshow/115180882.cms?from=mdr