Talking bollocks thread #3

gbu48098 wrote:

Backman wrote:The bitching from India about the su 57 was all fiction hyped by the western defense media.It allegedly came from the air force. The air force had zero inside knowledge of the Pak Fa. Only the Indian MIC/procurment would've had some inside info and they weren't the ones bitching.

The engine ? That's like saying the su 35 is under powered. Who says that.

The pro US faction in India wanted to get the deal cancelled. And they succeed.

Why is it bitching? Are they not allowed to have their security criteria?

Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate,  and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, (oh unreliable now eh?) its radar inadequate, (The radar ain't good enough. Never heard this one before)its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints.

lyle6 wrote:

gbu48098 wrote:

Why is it bitching? Are they not allowed to have their security criteria? India can't just keep buying Russian or other countries forever, it is a major country with lots of human resources and they will claim their place slowly but gradually. Unlike last 60 years and almost 1000 years of on and off occupations by muzzies and british, they have a nationalist gov now that cares about their traditions, achievements and place in the world. Tejas is the first step and 2nd and 3rd steps would be faster than 1st step and they are already getting better on local designs of missiles and other systems. Russia sells to China, therefore India can't depend on the Russian equipment as the strategies based on pros and cons will to some extent common knowledge to China, therefore you see the mixing of components from local, Israel and France but thats the best they can do till they indigenize. It is a fact Russian's downgrade export equipment as their market is trash countries in Europe like Turkey/Greece and east European or even Egypt and others that give their equipment to West. I named Greece as they are a bunch similar to Australia and NZ and UK and some other spineless countries that shoot themselves, Canada and almost all of Europe minus a bit of France. No personal disrespect to members from these countries.

If you evaluate every criticism to some conspiracy then you have plenty of time to waste. Real partnership with India is unique and valuable to Russia and viceversa.

And what does India expect? That Russia would just part with its best technologies for what is India paying for? Bullshit. They should learn that in business you get what you pay for, and quite frankly India is up there when it comes to niggardly customers.

Its also not a good idea to piss off your arms supplier, just as it is no good idea to piss of the people who serve your food. By airing these frankly inane complaints they are damaging the reputation of Russia's wares and hurting further prospects for business. What kind of a partner does that?

that India was funding the SU-57 programme and when they pulled out the whole thing would collapse... except the Indians had not contributed any of the 6 billion they were going to put into development because they weren't involved in the development of the Su-57, their programme was separate and was modifications of the Su-57 export model

Backman wrote:
Russia cut the price almost in half to 3.7 billion and India still didn't bite.

They could have given it away from free and India wouldn't have taken it. There was only a certain amount of money to go around and a faction in the IAF that was dead set on the 144 French Rafales. Now that the Rafale deal has stalled at 48 aircraft or something, it will be interesting to see what India does next. They really have no other choice if they want to counter the J-20.

GarryB wrote:Their FGFA programme had not started... it didn't cost them a cent. The UK put billions into the F-35 and is not even allowed access to the source code. If they want to use Brimstone on their own F-35s, they have to essentially hand over the Brimstone missile and its secrets to the Americans so they can integrate it.

LMFS wrote:
US and anglos in general simply smear anything related to Russia per standard procedure, with more intensity the more this particular thing threatens them. The more they bitch and moan, the more we know they are really scared by what Russia has achieved

Backman wrote:  Need and want are 2 different things. India's air force would be more dynamic with the su 57 than without. They should be able to fit the Rafale and su 57 in. They'd have China covered.

gbu48098 wrote:

Backman wrote:  Need and want are 2 different things. India's air force would be more dynamic with the su 57 than without. They should be able to fit the Rafale and su 57 in. They'd have China covered.

It is not mainstream yet even in VKS. Let them fig out the kinks on their dime and then India will sure take a look at it. Building blocks are being laid in India steadily and I expect some prolific things come out there in next decade. For now they should get more Rafales and do the Super Sukhoi upgrads for MKI. Interesting to watch would be their 2nd carrier and whether they go for migs or something else. Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

gbu48098 wrote:Rafales are good and India has good experience with Mirages and the costs are worth it for what it provides and their neighbor threat profile. French make good stuff.

I am not buying into that mig-35 in place of Rafales under cost profile.

Indian armed forces are changing in more than one ways and lobbyists are being more and more checked as they sabotage indigenous efforts under current leadership.

Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

Gomig-21 wrote:You don't think the Indian announcement had a shred of accountability as to the opinions of the stealthy capabilities of the Su-57.  Imagine the thing is completely invisible in the end LOL!  That would throw a super heavy pipe wrench at everyone!

Gomig-21 wrote:

gbu48098 wrote:

Backman wrote:  Need and want are 2 different things. India's air force would be more dynamic with the su 57 than without. They should be able to fit the Rafale and su 57 in. They'd have China covered.

It is not mainstream yet even in VKS. Let them fig out the kinks on their dime and then India will sure take a look at it. Building blocks are being laid in India steadily and I expect some prolific things come out there in next decade. For now they should get more Rafales and do the Super Sukhoi upgrads for MKI. Interesting to watch would be their 2nd carrier and whether they go for migs or something else. Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

First export customer for the Su-57 will be either Algeria immediately followed by Egypt or in tandem or the other way around IMO.  India couldn't make the Rafale which was the winner of the MMRCA work and who ended up being the first official export customer of the Rafale?  India has major bureaucratic issues that causes these wicked delays, while us Arabs swoop right in and can negotiate selling the moon!

LMFS wrote:

gbu48098 wrote:Rafales are good and India has good experience with Mirages and the costs are worth it for what it provides and their neighbor threat profile. French make good stuff.

I think we all like the Rafale, but France just rightly understood the "intelligent" Indian diversification strategy and ripped them off at an epic level. So the strategy is maybe not so intelligent. The important thing for Indians seem to be that this "diversity" allows them to buy the majority of their hardware in Russia and still insult them and demand low prices because of the claimed low quality of what they are buying. Sometimes it seems saving face and pretending to have status is more important for Indian authorities than doing the right thing and that is and will continue to bite them in the ass, very badly, not taking the opportunities Russia offers them while being constantly humiliated and taken for idiots by the West. Hardly intelligent IMHO

I am not buying into that mig-35 in place of Rafales under cost profile.

Indian armed forces are changing in more than one ways and lobbyists are being more and more checked as they sabotage indigenous efforts under current leadership.

The results of the brilliant and "patriotic" leadership is wasting 10 years in the FGFA, 20 on the Tejas, yet another 15 years in the MCRA, while IAF falls dramatically short of their sqd number. All in all, it is a fuckup of epic proportions. And I don't wish them (the country) any bad, but you have to call things by their name.

Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

What are the competitors, M88, F414, Kaveri? None of which is any better than the RD-33MK. In particular Kaveri is a piece of junk and they are not even able to make it on their own. Enough of India playing diva with Russia and then lowering their trousers to the West, everyone knows they have no real options but to take the hand Russia is patiently offering them.

Gomig-21 wrote:You don't think the Indian announcement had a shred of accountability as to the opinions of the stealthy capabilities of the Su-57.  Imagine the thing is completely invisible in the end LOL!  That would throw a super heavy pipe wrench at everyone!

As far as I know there was no official that had the courage of putting his name behind that obvious defamatory stunt, if really leaked by the government it was rather a way of saving face out of a program they could neither afford nor make use of. The fact that the Su-57 has travelled already twice to Syria without any "partner" noticing it should already tell people that the plane is no piece of junk RCS-wise and in terms of the potential as a platform and the qualities of the airframe, it is essentially 5.5 - 6G. If India did really think it is ok with their embarrassing Tejas but they are too good for sharing IP and production rights for a plane of the PAK-FA bloodline, then I admit I don't understand the parameters of their logic.

LMFS wrote:@gbu48098

I am not going to go deeper in the OT, this is the Su-57 thread in the end. If it was not for the still very present colonial mindset, India would not allow the constant smear of Russia in their media and value their strategic relationship with them accordingly to its importance, that is, head, shoulders and waist above the relationship with the West. Of course this is something that does not happen in the one to one relationship between officials and military, but it is indeed a sanctioned or at least allowed punching below the belt in order to milk more concessions and better pricing from the Russians, and it causes an objective PR damage to the Russian MIC.

BTW, the tone you are using is not going to get you many friends here. We are not suckers in need of cheap schooling

lyle6 wrote:

Except there is no evidence of this sea change in India's sourcing of its military technology either. All their new stuff are either adaptations of foreign technologies or incorporates significant fractions of foreign components for crucial tasks. More importantly, while they are dicking around with re-inventing late cold war technology everybody else is busy fielding their new millennium equivalents - effectively leaving India in the dust yet again.

lyle6 wrote:

gbu48098 wrote:
So is lot of equipment that Russia uses from CNC machines to metal cutters and they even use windows operating system. It is not all or nothing and learning from others inventions and discoveries is not a bad thing. For a country dominated by foreigners for near 700 years, it is coming back. You will be surprized how much of the componentry is being localized from avionics to metal to radars. They are fine and handling both China and Pakistan well enough....one is a terror land and other is authoritative and can't ever get along with its neighbors.

The thing is, they have their own equivalents for those too. For now, foreign technologies are still in use but that is mainly out of inertia i.e. businesses riding out the lifespans of whatever product or services they have bought into. Eventually they will switch out, but it will be done in a manner that is economically sound for all parties involved, not because the government would subsidize the enterprise. At no point will they have no viable alternative which means locking them out from doing further business is almost impossible.

I think India is being shrewd.

They are avoiding spending money.

They want to be independent and make stuff themselves but they wont pay for the technology they need to do that, so their indigenous tank has German  armour and a German engine and looks just like a German tank. Not much indigenous about it at all really.

Going with France for the Rafael which is legit an amazing aircraft and is essentially fifth gen in my opinion.

They might get a shock if they think they can just wait for the export Su-57s and buy off the shelf but also demand two seats and better stealth for free.

They will probably demand French and Israeli systems be added too and end up paying rather more than anyone else for their aircraft... which they will no doubt complain about.

Yeah, in a decade they will have their own 5th gen heavy fighter... maybe Russia might buy it.

How many Rafales can they afford?

Interesting to watch would be their 2nd carrier and whether they go for migs or somethign else. Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

They paid 8.4 billion for thirty six aircraft....   just under 240 million dollars per aircraft... and it is not even 5th gen... the F-35 is cheaper... saying you could get two F-35s for the price says enough does it not?

Though I will concede that the Rafale does work but then the Su-35 is combat tested too...

They introduced the programme to boost fighter numbers as MiG-27s and MiG-21s are being withdrawn from service... the Rafale is a stupid purchase in that regard because it is in the price range of a heavy fighter like an Su-30MKI... which makes it a terrible choice for a numbers aircraft.

They were only buying 126 planes as a stopgap, but it has taken so long they are going to need to buy a lot more and they simply can't afford to buy as many Rafales as they would need to fill the gap... personally I think Russia should raise their prices.

Why would they buy something that home country is not even serious, mig 35 is a joke from an execution point of view.

We are talking about India and the Rafale and the MiG-35, so really it is the choice of an over priced ferrari and a Lada Niva... the Russian product is cheap and gets the job done, while the Italian car looks nice but will sting you to buy and every service you have to pay for... I would think the Russians would let them build MiGs in India.... why bother with the Rafale... when you make aircraft yourself you make them much more expensive and how could India justify a much more expensive Rafale?

It seems you are expecting miracles, how is the aircraft carrier India was making going?

I have every confidence India could develop into a superpower, but their leaning towards the US and confrontation with China will do the opposite... of course it just takes one election to change everything too.

It is hilarious that you think Indias future is a future not dependent on other countries for their defence needs but your solution is to shun Russia, a country that offers joint development and Indian production of their weapons and equipment in favour of France and presumably the US who will happily push them into a confrontation with China... that will help India grow and develop for sure....

Of course they are entitled to their own choice, but they have to be aware that their choices also have consequences... if they don't want this or that plane or wants to wait until it is off the shelf and they don't have to invest anything into its development then they have to be aware if they eventually do buy it and want changes they will pay for them all themselves which will make them expensive.
Belligerent actions from the west towards Russia is pushing Russia closer to China, so if India wants a fight with China then relations with Russia are going to change too... just like Russian relations with the EU will change as they tow the US anti Russia line politically.

India is playing countries off against each other to get a better deal... the whole MRCA deal was all about getting France to drop its price and it backfired.... it wasted ten years and the price they paid was no better than earlier offers which were considered too much at the time.

Russia now exports CNC machines, and in terms of operating systems and computers they are leading the world in dropping Microsoft.

kvs wrote:So the Su-57 is "underpowered" but the F-35 can't even fly over Mach 1 without major damage.   Yeah, BS much.

Su-57:

   Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,683 lb)
   Gross weight: 25,000 kg (55,116 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
   Max takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,162 lb)
   Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb) internally

   Maximum speed: Mach 2 (2,440 km/h; 1,320 mph) at altitude
       Mach 1.6 (1,710 km/h; 1,060 mph) supercruise at altitude
   Range: 3,500 km (2,200 mi, 1,900 nmi) subsonic, 4,500 km from 2 outboard fuel tanks[268]
       Supersonic range: 1,500 km (930 mi, 810 nmi)
   Service ceiling: 20,000 m (66,000 ft)
   g limits: +9.0
   Wing loading: 371 kg/m2 (76 lb/sq ft) typical mission weight
   Thrust/weight:
       AL-41F1: 1.02 (1.19 at typical mission weight)
       izdeliye 30: 1.15–1.2 (1.36 at typical mission weight)


F-35:

   Empty weight: 29,300 lb (13,290 kg)
   Gross weight: 49,540 lb (22,471 kg)
   Max takeoff weight: 70,000 lb (31,751 kg)
   Fuel capacity: 18,250 lb (8,278 kg) internal

   Maximum speed: Mach 1.6 at altitude
   Range: 1,500 nmi (1,700 mi, 2,800 km)
   Combat range: 669 nmi (770 mi, 1,239 km) on internal fuel
       760 nmi (870 mi; 1,410 km) interdiction mission on internal fuel, for internal air to air configuration[390]
   Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,000 m)
   g limits: +9.0
   Wing loading: 107.7 lb/sq ft (526 kg/m2) at gross weight
   Thrust/weight: 0.87 at gross weight (1.07 at loaded weight with 50% internal fuel)

JAS 39C/D Gripen:

   Empty weight: 6,800 kg (14,991 lb)
   Max takeoff weight: 14,000 kg (30,865 lb)
   Internal fuel capacity: 3,000 L (790 US gal)

   Maximum speed: 2,460 km/h (1,530 mph, 1,330 kn) +
   Maximum speed: Mach 2
   Combat range: 800 km (500 mi, 430 nmi)
   Ferry range: 3,200 km (2,000 mi, 1,700 nmi)
   Service ceiling: 15,240 m (50,000 ft)
   g limits: +9 −3
   Wing loading: 283 kg/m2 (58 lb/sq ft)
   Thrust/weight: 0.97
   Takeoff distance: 400 m (1,312 ft)
   Landing distance: 500 m (1,640 ft)

The Su-57 is superior to both the Gripen and the F-35.   And that is according to pro-NATO WikiCrapia.