Talking bollocks thread #3

Canada is not much better then the US, and has done some heinous acts. Canada had to pay a multimmillion $ settlement to a Canadian citizen for participating in his torture at GITMO. Of course all the rednecks here criticized the govt. Canada also illegally bombed Syria. Because of our large Ukranian diaspora, including our deputy minister whos grandfather was an ex-ukranian nazi, we have a decidedly anti-russian approach. We also have a large Russian diaspora that tends to be pro russian in sports, but somewhat anti putin lol. While I would not want Putin as our PM, I do respect the man. But until Russia improves the quality of life of its people, it will continue to die a slow demographic death.

I find this to be rather strange... I thought we were discussing why you think the Iranian government is so evil, but you admit your government and the government of the US is evil and in fact violates all the rules and ethics of their own making that they use to portray other governments as being evil... for instance Saddam is evil because he gassed his own people... at the time they didn't care because he was fighting Iran, but once he became a threat to their plans it was brought up as a reason he was evil and needed to be removed from power.... another example of evil of course... why does the west think it is democratic to remove or choose this or that politician.

The leader of a country can only do so much, and improving the quality of life has never happened instantly anywhere...

By your own admission Canada bombed Syria... what did Iran do to qualify as being evil... apart from being poorer than Canada?

Is that the definition of evil?

Money.

Would explain why Saudi Arabia gets away with brutal dismemberment of Washington Post reporters, but it is Iran that is evil.

I think the Bear is to valuable and unique a platform to give up. I keep hoping for Russia to come up with a more advanced development of its engines, thay have so much potential.

Isn't that a contradiction? If the Bear is any good why are you hoping for an improvement?

Perhaps new generation electric motors might lead to performance increases... the propellers actually make it very efficient at lower altitudes.

When it became clear that a high flying B-52, or B-1B or B-2 for that matter would not likely penetrate Soviet air defences they started using low level attack profiles, which led to greatly increased wear and tear on the air frames.

Ironically the Bear is actually faster at lower altitudes than the B-52 is and retains its range advantage, so in terms of a mid to low altitude penetrator the Bear is already better than the B-52.

If Russias demographics are so rosy why did they increase the age of retirement? What about their life expectancy? Infant mortality rate? Once again you seem to have voted with your feet and yet you say things are so wonderful. You must be part of Pravda. lol

The age of retirement increases in most countries as life expectancy increases... that is just basic economics.

Russian girlfriends are not a source of information. The ones that push west tend to be pro-west and anti-Russian.

People who move away from a country are not the best sources of information about that country... I mean they moved away and they are hardly going to move away from paradise to a place where their kind are generally despised.

About to prune away the BS.

lyle6 wrote:This debate is stupid. In 30 years Russia would still be Russian - you can't say the same for Canada or the US.

Is that such a good thing? The Russian people have a long history of being oppressed by their govt, so that will continue? That is kinda sad.

Oppressed?

Putin has turned their economy and their prospects around to the point where they are competing with the west in many areas.

What oppression did your girlfriend suffer... is she a Jehovahs Witness?

The way the west is going expect to be oppressed for being white because they have a thousand years of racism and bigotry to redress and you get to enjoy that with your friends and family...

GarryB wrote:

I find this to be rather strange... I thought we were discussing why you think the Iranian government is so evil, but you admit your government and the government of the US is evil and in fact violates all the rules and ethics of their own making that they use to portray other governments as being evil... for instance Saddam is evil because he gassed his own people... at the time they didn't care because he was fighting Iran, but once he became a threat to their plans it was brought up as a reason he was evil and needed to be removed from power.... another example of evil of course... why does the west think it is democratic to remove or choose this or that politician.

The leader of a country can only do so much, and improving the quality of life has never happened instantly anywhere...

By your own admission Canada bombed Syria... what did Iran do to qualify as being evil... apart from being poorer than Canada?

Is that the definition of evil?

Money.

Would explain why Saudi Arabia gets away with brutal dismemberment of Washington Post reporters, but it is Iran that is evil.

I place the Saudis and Iran at similar levels of evil based on their willingness to kill their own citizens at the drop of a hat for very minor things. Can you sue the Iranian govt for torture if you are a citizen and be compensated? BTW New Zealand is a 5 eyes member so  there are no innocents. Countries all do evil things but to me how they treat their own citizens is the most important. Canada has no death penalty and its far from perfect, but so are all nations.

GarryB wrote:

Isn't that a contradiction? If the Bear is any good why are you hoping for an improvement?

You really gonna try and say a plane designed in the 50's cannot be improved upon? and then you offer a host of potential improvements below?  

GarryB wrote:
Perhaps new generation electric motors might lead to performance increases... the propellers actually make it very efficient at lower altitudes.

The age of retirement increases in most countries as life expectancy increases... that is just basic economics.

Has not happened in a lot of western nations. In Russia it was to deal with a projected labour shortage casused by aging population.  

People who move away from a country are not the best sources of information about that country... I mean they moved away and they are hardly going to move away from paradise to a place where their kind are generally despised.

Russian immigrants are not despised in Canada, in fact they do very well here.

I place the Saudis and Iran at similar levels of evil based on their willingness to kill their own citizens at the drop of a hat for very minor things.

One could argue that a death penalty is actually more humaine than keeping someone locked up for the rest of their natural life with no option to ever leave jail.

There are plenty of people the world would be much better off if they were no longer a part of... you can talk about rehabilitation and that they are changed people and they are sorry and promise to never do it again...

Can you sue the Iranian govt for torture if you are a citizen and be compensated?

So the freedom to sue... how is that working out for the people in Guantanimo who have not been charged with anything and get tortured every day with waterboarding and sleep deprivation etc etc. What compensation would suffice? And more fundamentally they have not closed down Guantanimo so the compensation is a token payment... they are not sorry and they will do it again repeatedly... it is someones tax dollars going to these compensations... but no one goes to jail over this...

BTW New Zealand is a 5 eyes member so there are no innocents. Countries all do evil things but to me how they treat their own citizens is the most important. Canada has no death penalty and its far from perfect, but so are all nations.

New Zealand pretends to be good but is just as bad as everyone else. It is the dirty skeleton in the closet... we are used for spying on Asia and the Pacific with spy bases. We are also a useful place to have a base for the US to access Antarctica... we even get a mention in the Stargate series... lucky us...

So rich powerful countries that preach the good word and criticise other countries for not meeting their high moral standards and ethics, yet behind the scenes are more devastating and brutal than any third world dictator could ever hope to be is OK with you.

I can understand the child of a drug baron thinking life is good too...

You really gonna try and say a plane designed in the 50's cannot be improved upon? and then you offer a host of potential improvements below?

It was completely redesigned with a brand new wing in the 1980s and has recently had its engines improved... improved power and improved fuel efficiency, with a 50% reduction in vibration...

Do you think if they give it an extra 100 hp it might become supersonic?

It is already faster than the B-52 in low level penetration missions... what exactly would you be hoping for?

Has not happened in a lot of western nations. In Russia it was to deal with a projected labour shortage casused by aging population.

Here in New Zealand you pay in to a retirement fund, but I have a friend who is from the UK and the idea there is that everyone pays in and when your retire you take money out of the pool fund... which essentially means the young people of today are paying in to fund retired people now... the money the retired people paid in was already used for the people who were retired when they were working.

Obviously with such a system as the population ages and technology allows people to live healthier lives for longer then people are going to have to work longer because they are going to be retired longer and will need more money set aside for their retirement.

Politicians here are always talking about increasing the age of retirement to save money and keep more money in the pot because the higher the age the less people drawing from it and those drawing from it draw for a shorter period and of course more people working paying in.

An ageing population creates work in itself... in Japan it is driving development in robot technology for a start...

Russian immigrants are not despised in Canada, in fact they do very well here.

As long as they don't support Putin I suspect.

The only one who is getting oppressed here are the white Americans and Canadians who built these countries from the ground up.

There is no innocents here... what colonial powers did when they arrived was criminal and the native populations have been suffering ever since.

Here in New Zealand the local Maori were quite smart and were very successful businessmen and women... the first thing they did was sold things to new settlers and rented properties... it took a while for huge numbers of white european immigrants to outnumber the natives so they could start forcing land sales and "spreading around the land more fairly". Often the whites would bring machines to make their businesses more competitive and took over or eliminated the native owned businesses... but we were never taught any of this in school.

Things like Bastion point... we were essentially told these uppity natives gave us their land and then demanded it back... and like most white lies it was partially true... during WWII the threat of Japanese invasion led to a local tribe offering to give the government a piece of coastal land that could be used to place guns to protect the harbour. The local government accepted the land but didn't really do anything with it... it was valuable coastal land. When the war finished the local council subdivided the land up and were going to sell it to make lots and lots of money... the local maori obviously objected and said the land should be returned as it had not be used for any of the purposes it was offered for... the local council said no so protests began...

White people were clearly in the wrong it is not a question of race... one way or the other.

The real problem is that ignoring the truth or hiding the truth is not helping... but affirmative action is not the solution either, though seeing white people react to being essentially treated like black people is interesting... but that does not solve problems and does not fix anything and just creates hostility all round.

The democrats and the loony left might end up like the matrix... except instead of AI and robots doing it to us, it could be us doing it to ourselves to keep our people safe and tucked up in their pods where nothing can actually hurt them...

Imagine spending generations worth of blood sweat and tears only for some jackass from some third world shithole to come and enjoy the fruits of all that hard work. Free housing, free food, free medical, free education, free everything while the natives have to toil 2-3 jobs to pay for all that shit.

New migrants here in New Zealand often get housing and food and clothes and money and all sorts of support getting into work... I think if the same things were extended to poor in New Zealand then things would be much better.

I don't mind paying 50c in the dollar in tax if everyone gets free healthcare and free education and free mental healthcare and support and a roof over their heads.

Problem is that like everywhere else property and housing is an easy way to make money...

Chinese millionaires go to Auckland and buy 20 houses for 1 million dollars each. If they have family going to university in Auckland they might have some kids in each house but most they leave empty... in two years time they sell them for 1.5 to 2 million dollars each and make millions of dollars with very little actual effort.

It means a family wanting to buy a house can't afford it most of the time... or they end up with a mortgage that means 80% of their income is going paying the loan on the house.... ironically their best bet is actually get get a double house loan and buy two houses and then after three years of struggling with loan repayments they can sell the second home for 50% more than what they paid for it and use that to pay off a large chunk of the loan... but really they will buy two more houses and keep buying and selling houses to make cheap money... for no effort... but that is life... borrow and spend... and don't get caught when the bubble bursts and those 10 houses you have bank loans on go from 2 million each to 300K each but you still owe 20 million on 3 million dollars worth of houses.

I'm not even white and I'm getting second-hand rage from that injustice.

The whites forget that this is the sort of shit non whites have been putting up with all these centuries... when we get a taste we don't like it, but we don't demand reform and change so that it stops happening to anyone... they just want it to go back to how it was when it wasn't happening to them.

lyle6 wrote:The only one who is getting oppressed here are the white Americans and Canadians who built these countries from the ground up.

Slavery, Jim Crow didn't happen in some far away planet.

lyle6 wrote:Imagine spending generations worth of blood sweat and tears only for some jackass from some third world shithole to come and enjoy the fruits of all that hard work. Free housing, free food, free medical, free education, free everything while the natives have to toil 2-3 jobs to pay for all that shit.

Imagine spending generations worth of blood sweat and tears to build your country only for some low life scum from Europe to come and forcefully occupy your country and siphon off all your wealth. From one of the most prosperous nation it become a third world "shithole". Almost, all these countries across Americas, Africa and Asia have one thing in common, brutal European colonization.

Today U.S, U.K, E.U sponsor genocides and civil unrest in these same "third world" countries with the sole intention of forcing their best talent to migrate to the West.

lyle6 wrote:I'm not even white and I'm getting second-hand rage from that injustice.

Save that rage for some worthwhile purpose, you might need it. Americans, canadians are anything but innocent.

GarryB wrote:

3. hypersonic internal air to ground missiles.

That is supposed to be on the way too...

Not sure why Russia is not developing Reaper style drones that can fire air to air missiles. AIM-92 has been integrated with the Reaper.

So if Russia is able to integrate R-77 with a UAV it can be used to target enemy helos, fighters and cruise missiles.

Sujoy wrote:

GarryB wrote:

3. hypersonic internal air to ground missiles.

That is supposed to be on the way too...

Not sure why Russia is not developing Reaper style drones that can fire air to air missiles. AIM-92 has been integrated with the Reaper.

So if Russia is able to integrate R-77 with a UAV it can be used to target enemy helos, fighters and cruise missiles.

One US drone tried to engage an iraqi mig-25 with manpad. It failed miserably.

Against choppers it could work but modern protection works very well against manpads.

R-77 is huge and could be used only by s-70 type drones.

Isos wrote:One US drone tried to engage an iraqi mig-25 with manpad. It failed miserably.

Meaning the U.S drone was retrofitted with a MANPAD?

Isos wrote:R-77 is huge and could be used only by s-70 type drones.

If I'm not mistaken certain Russian helos can also carry air to air missiles. Those missiles can be fitted on to that drone.

LMFS wrote:Helos have been able to carry AAM for decades, that does not turn them into anything remotely similar to "fighters". Drones with the kinematics of a Cessna aren't either.

Reaper style drones are being increasing being used by U.S, NATO. There are benefits of using these drones in air to air combat. A Russian version of Reaper can be send to areas where the enemy is operating similar drones, so that those drones can be targeted. They can also be used to shoot down cruise missiles and surface to air missiles fired by several ground based defense systems like NASAMS.

I may be wrong but I heard the mig-35 is still not yet equipped with the zhuk aesa radar. I've heard rumors that the mig-29 fighters being sold to India might be equipped with them.

I'm hoping the zhuk aesa radars are near complete in their testing phase. Heard sometime this year.

I would think the operational AESA radar is why they delayed the service entry of the MiG-35 in Russian service... they have already delivered MiG-29Ms to Egypt so what else could have delayed the Russian AF getting their MiGs?

Not sure why Russia is not developing Reaper style drones that can fire air to air missiles.

AFAIK the S-70 is fully able to carry AAMs including R-37Ms I would assume.

Helos have been able to carry AAM for decades, that does not turn them into anything remotely similar to "fighters". Drones with the kinematics of a Cessna aren't either.

It would only be drones like S-70 that are intended to operate with fighters that would warrant carrying real AAMs, for most other platforms a MANPAD type missile would be next to useless... if the enemy is less than 6km away then a drone is in serious trouble.

Meaning the U.S drone was retrofitted with a MANPAD?

Drones are at a serious disadvantage to fighters... even previous generation fighters.

Their low speed means it is more like a helicopter with air to air missiles than a light fighter with air to air missiles.

Remember that Georgian drone in 2008 shot down by the MiG-29... the flight speed and situational awareness of a fighter makes a slow fragile drone easy meat most of the time.

A drone like an S-70 would be more tricky because it has its own sensors, but it still wont rule the skies like a fighter can.

If I'm not mistaken certain Russian helos can also carry air to air missiles. Those missiles can be fitted on to that drone

More a self defence feature or anti drone feature than anything else... those MANPADS reach about 6km... a MiG-29 from medium altitude could detect the drone or helicopter from 10 times greater distance and launch an R-73 from a distance where neither the drone nor the helicopter will know what is going on...

AAMs on an S-70 type drone might make sense, but for most it does not and for helicopters it is more a self defence thing.

Reaper style drones are being increasing being used by U.S, NATO. There are benefits of using these drones in air to air combat. A Russian version of Reaper can be send to areas where the enemy is operating similar drones, so that those drones can be targeted. They can also be used to shoot down cruise missiles and surface to air missiles fired by several ground based defense systems like NASAMS.

Their ability to detect targets will be much worse than even most 3rd gen fighters let alone fourth or fifth.

Jamming or finding their control centres makes more sense to deal with drones than chasing your tail hunting them each down with an AAM.

GarryB wrote:Their ability to detect targets will be much worse than even most 3rd gen fighters let alone fourth or fifth.

Reaper can get details about the target from a number of platforms - space based, air based, ground based.

In Afghanistan target details have been fed to Reapers by airborne F 16s and F 18s.

GarryB wrote:Jamming or finding their control centres makes more sense to deal with drones than chasing your tail hunting them each down with an AAM.

But drones like the Reaper are being controlled in Afghanistan by ground based stations located half way across the world.

Sujoy wrote:
Reaper can get details about the target from a number of platforms - sp

In Afghanistan target details have been fed to Reapers by airborne F 16s and F 18s.

Performance of AAMS launched from drones like reapers is not equal to performance of AAMS launched by fighter planes

But drones like the Reaper are being controlled in Afghanistan by ground based stations located half way across the world.

I think he meant jamming the communications

Sujoy wrote:

GarryB wrote:Their ability to detect targets will be much worse than even most 3rd gen fighters let alone fourth or fifth.

Reaper can get details about the target from a number of platforms - space based, air based, ground based.

In Afghanistan target details have been fed to Reapers by airborne F 16s and F 18s.

GarryB wrote:Jamming or finding their control centres makes more sense to deal with drones than chasing your tail hunting them each down with an AAM.

But drones like the Reaper are being controlled in Afghanistan by ground based stations located half way across the world.

That's called satellite guidance. It can be jammed.

Krasukha-2 is meant to jamm satellites and is deployed for years now. Krasukha-4 and Repelent and other smaller jammers can jamm datalink between drones and ground based station like it is used for turkish TB2 drones.

It happens something similar with AAM launched from much more performing platforms, all they have to do is to stay at safe distance, considering their speed and altitude relative to the target, and the acceleration / turning capabilities of each. It is tighter of course in the case Okhotnik vs fighter than helo vs fighter, but still the fighter has a clear advantage

The problem is that most current drones are optimised for tracking targets on the ground so generally optical sensors with massive zoom, which is not ideal for finding enemy fighter aircraft more than 10km away.

In comparison even the most basic MiG-21 could detect aircraft sized drones more than 20km away, and depending on the selection of weapons can kill them at distances the drone wont even detect it is under attack from.

What surprised me in that video footage of that Georgian drone being shot down by a MiG-29 was that the drone knew it was under attack... this is likely because the drone was being used by Turkey and they were using air surveillance radar to detect the MiG-29 so they knew it was there and managed to locate it with the drones cameras before the MiG launched the fatal missile.

With some small drones they might be safe because they don't show up on fighter radar, but more modern fighters have IR sensors or older planes can carry targeting pods that include thermal imagers for targeting ground and air targets.

A drone is better off than a helicopter in the sense that it is often faster, but modern attack helos have much better self defence avionics so they know they are under attack which would be more valuable than speed.... in a city hiding behind skyscrapers if you know where the fighter is, or a line of low hills or large trees... but you need to know where the plane is, which most drones will not.

Now we are talking the same language...

That is why manned fighters will remain primary fighter defence for most countries... but just because most drones are oriented to ground attack and are therefore as good at protecting themselves from fighters as most strike aircraft are(n't), it does not mean that drones designed to be fighters to shoot down other manned and unmanned aircraft are not being worked on.

I suspect anti drone drones will be first and depending on how effective and cheap they are they might expand to shooting down manned aircraft too.

Reaper can get details about the target from a number of platforms - space based, air based, ground based.

Indeed, that drone in Georgia managed to point its camera at the MiG-29 that shot it down in time to see the missile launch... but that drone was armed with MANPADS at best, so if Georgian drones started shooting at MiG-29s the MiG-29s could simply start using R-27 missiles from 20km range and the drone will never see what hit it.

Fitting long range missiles to drones becomes problematic... what if you shoot down a civilian airliner or a friendly...

In Afghanistan target details have been fed to Reapers by airborne F 16s and F 18s.

Quite possible, but in terms of air to air performance that drone is at a huge disadvantage against most fighters... even not so modern ones.

But drones like the Reaper are being controlled in Afghanistan by ground based stations located half way across the world.

And you can use those signals to easily pinpoint those drones and shoot them down.

India had invested A LOT of loot in the development of the FGFA and to pull out and simply lose that money for those reasons they mentioned was more damaging to the Su-57 unfortunately. Just my opinion.

Their FGFA programme had not started... it didn't cost them a cent. The UK put billions into the F-35 and is not even allowed access to the source code. If they want to use Brimstone on their own F-35s, they have to essentially hand over the Brimstone missile and its secrets to the Americans so they can integrate it.

The Indians spent 8 billion dollars on 36 Rafale fighters, but refused to invest 6 billion dollars in the FGFA programme...

The Indians want the best but will only pay for it if it happens to be French.

For 2.5 billion they got an aircraft carrier and a flight of MiG-29KR fighters and Ka-31 AEW helicopters. They complained like it was 10 billion they were being forced to pay... it is a shame they didn't refuse it... it would have been useful for the Russian Navy.

The only thing that bums be out is the speed of production for us impatient export customers.

Ask an F-35 customer and they will probably say it is worth waiting to get a fighter that actually works.

But their engine problem claims were not as damaging as their "not such great stealthy characteristics" claims. The latter was most likely the most damaging in influencing opinions around the world.

The thing is that extreme stealth is required to be combat effective, but extreme stealth is expensive and is very hard to maintain.

By reducing stealth goals they have made the Su-57 affordable... but lets be serious and honest...

The Indian 5th gen stealth fighter project is just a repeat of the Su-30MKI project... the Russians designed the base plane and then India can demand any modifications they want... but they get to pay for those modifications.

If they want better engines or improved stealth or two seats they can have them... but they have to pay for them... and that was the problem... they didn't want to pay for more stealthy designs because a more stealthy design will triple the price of the aircraft for only a minor increase in stealthiness.

The bitching from India about the su 57 was all fiction hyped by the western defense media.It allegedly came from the air force. The air force had zero inside knowledge of the Pak Fa. Only the Indian MIC/procurment would've had some inside info and they weren't the ones bitching.

The engine ? That's like saying the su 35 is under powered. Who says that.

The pro US faction in India wanted to get the deal cancelled. And they succeed.

Backman wrote:The bitching from India about the su 57 was all fiction hyped by the western defense media.It allegedly came from the air force. The air force had zero inside knowledge of the Pak Fa. Only the Indian MIC/procurment would've had some inside info and they weren't the ones bitching.

The engine ? That's like saying the su 35 is under powered. Who says that.

The pro US faction in India wanted to get the deal cancelled. And they succeed.

The Su-57 is "under powered" but weighs a metric ton less than the Su-35. Also, the engine in the Su-57 has higher thrust than the one in the Su-35.
Sure, the engine might not have the same thrust-to-weight ratio as the F135 but it is better at that than the F119.

Not to mention that the F135 engine might look great on paper, but the airframe it was put into, the F-35, is crap.
The F-35 cannot reach Mach 2.0+ because of the DSI inlets and the wing loading is high which means it does not have high agility either.
So it has neither high speed nor high agility.

Backman wrote:The bitching from India about the su 57 was all fiction hyped by the western defense media.It allegedly came from the air force. The air force had zero inside knowledge of the Pak Fa. Only the Indian MIC/procurment would've had some inside info and they weren't the ones bitching.

The engine ? That's like saying the su 35 is under powered. Who says that.

The pro US faction in India wanted to get the deal cancelled. And they succeed.

Why is it bitching? Are they not allowed to have their security criteria? India can't just keep buying Russian or other countries forever, it is a major country with lots of human resources and they will claim their place slowly but gradually. Unlike last 60 years and almost 1000 years of on and off occupations by muzzies and british, they have a nationalist gov now that cares about their traditions, achievements and place in the world. Tejas is the first step and 2nd and 3rd steps would be faster than 1st step and they are already getting better on local designs of missiles and other systems. Russia sells to China, therefore India can't depend on the Russian equipment as the strategies based on pros and cons will to some extent common knowledge to China, therefore you see the mixing of components from local, Israel and France but thats the best they can do till they indigenize. It is a fact Russian's downgrade export equipment as their market is trash countries in Europe like Turkey/Greece and east European or even Egypt and others that give their equipment to West. I named Greece as they are a bunch similar to Australia and NZ and UK and some other spineless countries that shoot themselves, Canada and almost all of Europe minus a bit of France. No personal disrespect to members from these countries.

If you evaluate every criticism to some conspiracy then you have plenty of time to waste. Real partnership with India is unique and valuable to Russia and viceversa.