The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

x_54_u43 wrote:...'a common sore loser myth trotted out of muh Aryans killing 10 for every death or whatever...

I wasn't talking about Eastern Front, I was talking about Nazi rule about killing hundred local civilians for every German that gets killed in combat in particular area

That was the approach they were applying here, it's how we got such interesting events like Kragujevac school children massacre (among many others)

flamming_python wrote:
It was actually the EU who told Yanukovich that quite openly. Maybe Russia had the same position but if it did it never voiced it aloud.
When Yanukovich decided to sign the agreement with Russia, Washington and the EU countries decided to overthrow him.

I have no idea how you came up with that conclusion buddy, but I live next door. Believe me, I do follow the situation there for a while&closely.
EU association agenda was pushed there years before the maidan, with all the "color" revolutions. The real meaning of it, is an internal fight between oligarchs clans from the East vs. the same clans from the West.
The mess started back in 2012 already, as Ukraine hosted the EURO2012 alongside Poland. Enormous assets were spent there, and the Ukrainians could get a feeling, that they are sort of the next step of EU expansion.
When followed by RU-UKR economic negotiations in 2013-2014, it created enormous social pressure, as people were already deluded that EU is awaiting them.
Sure it does! But as a labor, not partners.
And at the very end of this process, Janukowycz shifted the sides, signing an agreement with Russia - as EU didn't grant him much, and Putin himself told him that there is not a chance that they will associate with EU, having open custom borders with entire Russian market.
This fuelled mass unrest, immediately taken under the supervision of the opposite oligarchs, organized and financed by them.
And deliberately assisted by the EU member states, including Poland.
It used to be our FM Sikorski, who told Janukowycz "either you collaborate with the protesters, or will be hanged".
EU wanted a regime change in Ukraine, and establishing a pre-2010 status, with the Ukrainian government openly hostile to Russia, as it used to be before Janukowicz. Remember "Orange Revolution"? That was the turning point there.
This is where you seem not to get the right point.
There was NO common EU/US agenda. Both targeted different goals, with the use of different forces.
Janukowicz was put on the negotiation table, and actually, there was a signed agreement for a political solution there. An interim government, early elections, constitutional changes to be provided. It was already going!
And that was a moment when shit hit a fan because a political solution was not something in the American interest there.
Put it into a proper perspective.
It was a time, when Obama kicked the doors, and was yelling about "accepting US hegemony, or be punished!" to its FORMAL ALLIES.
It was a time, when a Russian cruiser, alongside with Chinese destroyer, peered in Syria, taking aboard remains of Syrian chemical weapons, making a fool of US administration busy drawing "red lines" to justify the invasion on Syria.
They wanted to punish Russia.
Humiliate it, put on its knees to send a clear signal about a "hegemony in being".
To everybody, both its allies&opponents.
So they rushed into a scene, with help of nazi element of Ukrainian politics.
Years after that, we already know that nazi scum had an established command center at the US embassy in Kiyev. The major players of nazi movement were regular visitors there.
US wanted a war. Massive unrests, with liters of blood flowing, pushing Russia for action.
They deluded themselves. Didn't expect the events that happened, the state of Ukrainian army in real, and the determination of Russia, that just took the Crimea.
There is one more thing to keep in mind : as Crimea referendum turnout was obvious, the same results for Donbas were not that clear. Much fewer voters participated, and much less support was presented. Russia acted extremely cautious due to that ...

RT
@RT_com

Russia state-affiliated media
· 6h
URGENT: Russia warns military action in Ukraine highly likely

GarryB wrote:You are trying to make it sound like Putin has folded....

That was the whole point of the article he himself quoted, the fact that Russia wins time and accepts to discuss with US for the sake of discussing. They know perfectly what US wants and they are not giving anything, but as far as they can keep them at the negotiation table while time is running in their favour, it is a wining strategy. The other option is a war that is potentially nuclear, the raising powers have better expectations for the future than that.

It is what they are hoping for, but really this is more likely... something like Stalin under there because that is what is left of Russian patience.

Russians see Putin indeed more as a Stalin than as a Gorbachev, for obvious reasons, only some fringe haters come up with these disingenuous fabrications. It did not took long for this particular one to abandon the mask of a balanced, deep thinking überintellectual and show what he really has inside

The only concession Russia should make is that once the Nazis launch any full scale attack on the Donbas/Luhansk Region, Russia, should immediately recognize the Region as an Independent and Sovereign State. Full diplomatic and military relations should be established with immediate effect and Russia should guarantee and protect their independence. This should then be followed by Belarus, China and all other countries that wish to establish diplomatic relations. Any other Russian speaking regions in the Ukraine that wish to declare independence should also be able to do so under Russian protection. Much like what happened in the Balkans.

flamming_python wrote:

par far wrote:

flamming_python wrote:As they get closer to the rim of no return, they swirl around the toilet bowl faster and faster

But make no mistake this is a dangerous situation
The Ukraine has the full support of the West in creating a suicide torpedo out of itself and money, militants and arms may flow as soon as the conflict re-enters it's hot phase.

Russia should restrict itself to destroying any attempted Ukrainian offensive, and leave it at that. All these fantasies about reunifying Russian lands, getting rid of all the Nazis and so on are ultimately the same fallacy of nation building that the US made in Iraq and Afghanistan. Little different.

No reason for Russia to get mired into a quagmire, or resolve any problems in the Ukraine. There is no-one left to talk to there. Keep the objectives limited, and restricted to military ones only. Time will sort all the rest of the issues out, once any offensive is dissolved.

Russia already knows this, Russia got what it needed and that was Crimea.

The Donbass region is already integrated into the Russian economy somewhat and this will continue to happen even more.

All of the industries in Ukraine are destroyed and they have moved to Russia, Russia got a lot of educated Russian speaking population.

Russia has gotten everything it needs from Ukraine.

Ukraine is now the wests problem. Russia knows this, the west knows this and this is why the west is trying to get Russia to talk to Ukraine directly, the west wants to dump Ukraine onto to Russia.

But Russia said, **** you, no.

Well yeah, exactly.

But Russia should not let them dump the Ukraine in its lap. In fact the Ukraine is now knocking on Russia's door and they have a chip on their shoulder. No thank you.

Grab the knife from them before they do damage, punch them in the face, and slam the door on them while they're disorientated. End of.

The notion that the west will dump Ukraine onto Russia, is long gone.

Russia knows that it has time on its side, when the winter is over there is likely going to be a huge wave of immigrants and refugees pouring into Europe from Africa, the Middle East and now Ukraine.

And the US is in the same boat, there is a shit ton of immigrants and refugees on the border with Mexico and there is internal divide inside US politics.

Russia clearly understands this and that is why Russia won't do anything stupid.

Russia does not need to grab the knife from Ukraine, it's better to let Ukraine have that knife because Ukraine is killing itself with that knife.

The knife that Ukraine has in its hand is no threat for Russia, if Ukraine does something stupid, than the Novorossiyan Armed Forces are more than enough to deal with them.

Ukraine from reports have 100,000 troops on the contact line with Donbass. Those 100,000 troops need to be feed, kept warm and they need logistics to keep them there. And all this costs money, let Ukraine pay that.

What is happening here reminds me of when Napoleon did his great retreat from Russia, more troops of Napoleon died from diseases, starvation and cold weather than in war.

The notion that Russia is in a weak spot is stupid, misguided and misleading.

Russia has the upper hand here, that why the west keeps coming to Moscow, only to be told to **** off.

Russia needs to build up its military, economy and everything to even higher standards and Russia needs time for that and Russia has time.

Russia has only been free for 21 years and it remarkable, what it has achieved in those 21 years.

This is the first time since the end of the cold war in 1991, that Russia is/can make demands from the west.

The brotherly people of Ukraine



Good morning. This drawing in the hands of a girl is the dream of all Ukrainians. A new generation is growing up, which was not “brainwashed” by the Soviet mindset. This is our future, which we are fighting for!

https://t.me/The3rdForceUA/559

PapaDragon wrote:

x_54_u43 wrote:...'a common sore loser myth trotted out of muh Aryans killing 10 for every death or whatever...

I wasn't talking about Eastern Front, I was talking about Nazi rule about killing hundred local civilians for every German that gets killed in combat in particular area

That was the approach they were applying here, it's how we got such interesting events like Kragujevac school children massacre (among many others)

And they were doing things even worse than the Kragujevac Massacre not in retaliation, but because they felt like taking over Polish land.


http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/460/land-zamosc-zamojszczyzna-1942-1944



During 1942 the partisan warfare in Poland was relatively low-level, but this low level of armed resistance was clearly not appreciated by the Germans.

Lesson from all of this is: give a hell to foreign invaders, because even if you do not resist or resist only on a small scale, the invader may decide to get rid of you anyway.

Excellent example is the Jews, who offered hardly any armed resistance to their persecution by the Germans, but the Germans decided to eliminate them regardless of that.

LMFS wrote:The brotherly people of Ukraine



Good morning. This drawing in the hands of a girl is the dream of all Ukrainians. A new generation is growing up, which was not “brainwashed” by the Soviet mindset. This is our future, which we are fighting for!

https://t.me/The3rdForceUA/559

Chances are, in 15 years she will working the streets or will be working in west giving BJ's to people in high places.

Ukraine is a lost cause, Russia has licked it dry, move on and let them rot.

ALAMO wrote:

flamming_python wrote:
It was actually the EU who told Yanukovich that quite openly. Maybe Russia had the same position but if it did it never voiced it aloud.
When Yanukovich decided to sign the agreement with Russia, Washington and the EU countries decided to overthrow him.

I have no idea how you came up with that conclusion buddy, but I live next door. Believe me, I do follow the situation there for a while&closely.
EU association agenda was pushed there years before the maidan, with all the "color" revolutions. The real meaning of it, is an internal fight between oligarchs clans from the East vs. the same clans from the West.
The mess started back in 2012 already, as Ukraine hosted the EURO2012 alongside Poland. Enormous assets were spent there, and the Ukrainians could get a feeling, that they are sort of the next step of EU expansion.
When followed by RU-UKR economic negotiations in 2013-2014, it created enormous social pressure, as people were already deluded that EU is awaiting them.
Sure it does! But as a labor, not partners.
And at the very end of this process, Janukowycz shifted the sides, signing an agreement with Russia - as EU didn't grant him much, and Putin himself told him that there is not a chance that they will associate with EU, having open custom borders with entire Russian market.
This fuelled mass unrest, immediately taken under the supervision of the opposite oligarchs, organized and financed by them.
And deliberately assisted by the EU member states, including Poland.
It used to be our FM Sikorski, who told Janukowycz "either you collaborate with the protesters, or will be hanged".
EU wanted a regime change in Ukraine, and establishing a pre-2010 status, with the Ukrainian government openly hostile to Russia, as it used to be before Janukowicz. Remember "Orange Revolution"? That was the turning point there.
This is where you seem not to get the right point.
There was NO common EU/US agenda. Both targeted different goals, with the use of different forces.
Janukowicz was put on the negotiation table, and actually, there was a signed agreement for a political solution there. An interim government, early elections, constitutional changes to be provided. It was already going!
And that was a moment when shit hit a fan because a political solution was not something in the American interest there.
Put it into a proper perspective.
It was a time, when Obama kicked the doors, and was yelling about "accepting US hegemony, or be punished!" to its FORMAL ALLIES.
It was a time, when a Russian cruiser, alongside with Chinese destroyer, peered in Syria, taking aboard remains of Syrian chemical weapons, making a fool of US administration busy drawing "red lines" to justify the invasion on Syria.
They wanted to punish Russia.
Humiliate it, put on its knees to send a clear signal about a "hegemony in being".
To everybody, both its allies&opponents.
So they rushed into a scene, with help of nazi element of Ukrainian politics.
Years after that, we already know that nazi scum had an established command center at the US embassy in Kiyev. The major players of nazi movement were regular visitors there.
US wanted a war. Massive unrests, with liters of blood flowing, pushing Russia for action.
They deluded themselves. Didn't expect the events that happened, the state of Ukrainian army in real, and the determination of Russia, that just took the Crimea.
There is one more thing to keep in mind : as Crimea referendum turnout was obvious, the same results for Donbas were not that clear. Much fewer voters participated, and much less support was presented. Russia acted extremely cautious due to that ...

I also followed the situation

Who cares what the EU wanted? Yes they preferred to leverage Yanukovich to turn away from Russia, right up until the last days, when Radoslaw Sikorsky came to Kiev and brokered an agreement between Yanukovich, Tyaginbok, Klitschko and Yatsenyuk.
But he was overthrown by force anyway by Washington's directive, or maybe it was a case of the tail wagging the dog. Whatever the case, the EU immediately recognized the new coupist government as legitimate.

And the referendum in the Donbass had a huge turn out. There are photos and videos of queues stretching on for kilometres at the voting stations. The one organized for Donbass residents in Moscow had a similarly massive turnout. You might say that it was due to the low amount of voting stations, but when Kiev organized presidential elections a month later, including on the many parts of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions that it took under control, virtually no-one turned up; photos of that as well.

The Donbass referendum however made no mention of Russia. It was about voting for sovereignty of the Donbass. It didn't even use the word independence. It was basically a vote of confidence for the anti-Maidan counter-revolution and nothing else. They passed with 70 something percent voting for.

Russia didn't annex the Donbass because unlike the Crimea it was not part of the RSFSR, it had no legal justification for belonging to Russia.
Also, because of opinion polls conducted before the Maidan - the Donbass was pro-Russian but not to an unanimous degree like the Crimea, and the identity there was different.

Odin of Ossetia wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

x_54_u43 wrote:...'a common sore loser myth trotted out of muh Aryans killing 10 for every death or whatever...

I wasn't talking about Eastern Front, I was talking about Nazi rule about killing hundred local civilians for every German that gets killed in combat in particular area

That was the approach they were applying here, it's how we got such interesting events like Kragujevac school children massacre (among many others)

And they were doing things even worse than the Kragujevac Massacre not in retaliation, but because they felt like taking over Polish land.


http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/460/land-zamosc-zamojszczyzna-1942-1944



During 1942 the partisan warfare in Poland was relatively low-level, but this low level of armed resistance was clearly not appreciated by the Germans.

Lesson from all of this is: give a hell to foreign invaders, because even if you do not resist or resist only on a small scale, the invader may decide to get rid of you anyway.

Excellent example is the Jews, who offered hardly any armed resistance to their persecution by the Germans, but the Germans decided to eliminate them regardless of that.

That's one thing the Chinese I think didn't understand till recently.

They purposely avoided antagonizing the West at all cost. They didn't act to prevent themselves being encircled by US allies in Asia, or rather to try and break that encirclement. They weren't nearly as active as Russia.

What's the result? They ended up being picked as public enemy no. 1 anyway, depicted as an aggressive, malignant force that has to be contained by the free world. Despite them not having done anything at all (border conflict with India not withstanding, who isn't even an ally of the US)

You mean in a couple of weeks she will be ready for Epstein island Part 2.... she is a bit old of course but Ukrainian girls don't age well...

This is why children should not be used to sell climate change or any other idea because they are empty vessels being used by the adults around them.

JohninMK wrote:
Leonid Ragozin
@leonidragozin
·
2h
Putin must be feeling very comfortable in this situation of perpetual escalation, which empowers his dictatorial regime by providing him with adversarial legitimacy. History shows there is nothing more stable than a regime under harsh US sanctions - see Iran, Cuba or N Korea.

The above is key to understanding the symbiotic nature of Putin’s relations with Western warmongers whose pension plan is resurrecting  “Soviet threat” and making sure it keeps feeding them and their sponsors in the military-industrial complex for decades ahead.

Contradicting this narrative, but pushed by the same people is the idea that Putin is bluffing. The thinking behind it is that the West should keep pushing Kremlin’s “red lines” on NATO expansion, NS2 and Black Sea fronts disregarding the risks it poses to Ukraine and its people.

Warmongers’ crusade against one US expert, who thinks that avoiding bloodshed in Ukraine should be everyone’s priority, is in itself an amazing phenomenon. Illustrates the fact that Russian invasion hype is primarily a reflection of inter-factional feuds in DC.

What a load of pretentious BS

marqs
@MarQs__
· 19h
BREAKING: #Russia will respond to the official request of the self-proclaimed DPR for help in the event of the use of force by Kyiv against the Donbas and a threat to people's lives - first deputy head of the Federation Council Committee on International Affairs

That is interesting though, if Russia advances towards the recognition of LDPR. That means they see the attack by the ukies imminent or at least very likely

My opinion on this issue - I have thevimpression that, objectively looking, ukrainians are again tyrning toward Russia anyway. They started with those nazi assholes, then elected Porochenko and now this Zelinski (sorry for spelling). Every time it's a more "calm" and more open to diologue guy than the one he replaced.

Next time it will still be an even more pro russian guy untill Russia places its own pawn.

That's quite easy to explain. US/UE promised lot of stuff and still offered nothing but few million of weapon gift that are totally useless, that only increase deads on the front but doesn't change the situation. Now ukrainian are getting they cold bath (french expression) realizing they were mostly told lies. It's not like french or US who are starving in their countries will give away industries and jobs to ukraine. And they are probably thinking that russia wasn't that bad.

Also Belorussian locomotives returning from Ukraine are often stopped finding that brakes on wagons are all removed or much older worse off parts have been installed replacing the safe parts

https://www.rt.com/russia/542090-ukraine-man-faces-crime/

Hundreds of criminal cases will soon be launched against companies linked to one of Kiev's most high-profile businessmen, Rinat Akhmetov, after he was accused of being behind a failed bid to oust the Ukrainian government.

Writing in a Facebook post on Thursday, the country’s Prosecutor General Irina Venediktova said that “an unusual show” had been playing out in recent weeks, with President Volodymyr Zelensky accusing Akhmetov of plotting to stage a Russian-backed coup attempt. “I don’t think that in a public and political storm, the office of the Attorney General should sit aside,” she went on.

“I will repeat and emphasize,” Venediktova wrote, “I am not calling anyone an assailant, an oligarch or an offender, but I do have the right at such a pivotal moment for the country to activate the investigation of a whole number of criminal proceedings…regarding entities from the orbit of the owner of several famous TV channels, coal enterprises, and energy companies.”
Read more
Ukrainian President warns of imminent coup attempt in Kiev Ukrainian President warns of imminent coup attempt in Kiev

“We have conducted a preliminary analysis of the whole array of criminal proceedings and now it turns out that we are talking about more than 200 cases. This figure is just a superficial estimate, I am convinced that there are more,” she added.

Get in line or else...

Isos wrote:My opinion on this issue - I have thevimpression that, objectively looking, ukrainians are again tyrning toward Russia anyway. They started with those nazi assholes, then elected Porochenko and now this Zelinski (sorry for spelling). Every time it's a more "calm" and more open to diologue guy than the one he replaced.

Next time it will still be an even more pro russian guy untill Russia places its own pawn.

That's quite easy to explain. US/UE promised lot of stuff and still offered nothing but few million of weapon gift that are totally useless, that only increase deads on the front but doesn't change the situation. Now ukrainian are getting they cold bath (french expression) realizing they were mostly told lies. It's not like french or US who are starving in their countries will give away industries and jobs to ukraine. And they are probably thinking that russia wasn't that bad.

The point is, that he is not an inch more "calm" than Porky.
Opposit.
He is much more desperate, as Ukropistan is falling apart.
There is increasing friction inside the Ukraine itself, and all the stories about "Russia staging a coup" as pure bullshit. Those are Ukrainian internal fractions, a bulldog fight under a carpet, portraited as "evil Russkie threat". You can't get a single cent for the internal fight, while it is possible to get some if you are opposing devil Putin.

JohninMK wrote:

par far wrote:
Ukraine is a lost cause, Russia has licked it dry, move on and let them rot.

It is certainly a lost cause so give it up but Russia didn't lick it dry, it spent a large amount of money and goodwill there.

True, it is the west that licked it dry. Good thing is Russia is not throwing good money after bad.

kvs wrote:

There is lots of talk in Ukria and in NATzO about how Russia will have a hard time invading this plucky bastion of democracy.
In reality it is a toilet.   Ukria stole 30 Russian locomotives used for transporting goods to Ukraine.   What a pathetic
collection of losers.   This was not some impounding of Russian property due to a court verdict or something.   This was
simple hijacking.  

This theft among other factors has prompted Russia to sever all rail traffic to Ukria.   It should have been done earlier, but
it is good enough.

Ukria has stolen 2857 cistern wagons from Belorus as well.   Theft is pervasive in the Ukrian railway system.   Functional
rolling stock is routinely stripped of parts.   For example 8 Kazakh wagons had their break components ripped off.

Ukria is degenerating into a Mad Max dystopia.   You bet the Kiev regime is desperate to force Russia to start sending
money again which it hopes will happen if either Russia invades or assumes "responsibility" for the 2014 Donbass war.

Total lawlessness + poor people = looting in never seen scale. Just take a look at LA and other american cities in the last weeks.

ALAMO wrote:

Isos wrote:My opinion on this issue - I have thevimpression that, objectively looking, ukrainians are again tyrning toward Russia anyway. They started with those nazi assholes, then elected Porochenko and now this Zelinski (sorry for spelling). Every time it's a more "calm" and more open to diologue guy than the one he replaced.

Next time it will still be an even more pro russian guy untill Russia places its own pawn.

That's quite easy to explain. US/UE promised lot of stuff and still offered nothing but few million of weapon gift that are totally useless, that only increase deads on the front but doesn't change the situation. Now ukrainian are getting they cold bath (french expression) realizing they were mostly told lies. It's not like french or US who are starving in their countries will give away industries and jobs to ukraine. And they are probably thinking that russia wasn't that bad.

The point is, that he is not an inch more "calm" than Porky.
Opposit.
He is much more desperate, as Ukropistan is falling apart.
There is increasing friction inside the Ukraine itself, and all the stories about "Russia staging a coup" as pure bullshit. Those are Ukrainian internal fractions, a bulldog fight under a carpet, portraited as "evil Russkie threat". You can't get a single cent for the internal fight, while it is possible to get some if you are opposing devil Putin.

It´s like one of these african states in the 70´and 80´s where the new leader stole what he could and then left as fast as he could before the next coup was staged. At least most of Africa developed to more stable conditions.

In Kiev, 94.3 thousand Russian military were announced near the border with Ukraine

The head of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, Aleksey Reznikov, said that 94.3 thousand Russian troops are located on the Russian-Ukrainian border, who "can be involved in escalation." This was reported by RIA Novosti .

"The total number of troops on the territory of the Russian Federation, as well as in the temporarily occupied territories that can be involved in the escalation, is now estimated at 94.3 thousand people," he said, speaking in the Rada.

Earlier, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmitry Kuleba said at the OSCE meeting about "Russia's armed aggression against Ukraine." Kuleba called on the OSCE participating States to mobilize efforts to support Ukraine and implement a comprehensive package of deterring the Russian Federation from a "new wave of aggression."

Prior to this, US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken said that Russia was developing plans against Ukraine. According to him, the United States is "ready to act" if Russia refuses to follow the path of diplomacy and invades Ukraine.

https://www.gazeta.ru/army/news/2021/12/03/16957903.shtml?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&updated

NOTE: love how the Ukrainians and the West distort the numbers through the media. So take away the 30,000 or so Donbass militia ("as well as in the temporarily occupied territories that can be involved in the escalation") and that leaves 60,000 or so Russian troops stationed inside Russia on regions bordering Ukraine. Once you account for the 45% of this total stationed in Crimea, that leaves 33,000 Russian troops stationed in Rostov, Voronezh, Belgorod, Kursk and Bryansk (combined representing 7.25% of the total Russian population). Fun with numbers