Talking bollocks thread #4

Perhaps English is not your first language...

But when I say:

Nobody said Russia was leading.

And your response is to say

BULLSHIT, this whole discussion started on the previous page, with multiple people claiming that Russia had displaced either South Korea or Japan to become no2/no3 in world shipbuilding, I have yet to see anyone providing actual proof to support their claims.

So like I said... nobody claimed Russia was leading.

Oh they sure did. It is the bulk of Russian shipbuilding, how about you actually do some research?

Because they are a nation full of rivers and if they included every tin pot row boat in their production numbers it would be tens of thousands.

Even Scorpius himself mentioned how many river-transporters are being constructed for the future.

Boats that move on rivers are not sauce pans... nor are they chocolate Blancmange puddings. A vessel that sails on a river is also a ship... there is no requirement for a ship to be a sea going vessel. Ships for rivers still need to be constructed and shipyards are intended for making ships.

River transport fleet is the bulk of Russian domestic production.

Which makes sense because they have a lot of rivers within their national borders... river boats are still boats.

For civil shipbuilding, Zvezda is not yet completed and its production has been mostly done at South Korean yards as I have explained before.

The development of the Zvezda ship yards being built by South Korea is and was always intended to be done in stages... I seem to remember the last stages were set for 2022 so it is probably almost complete but the Zvezda shipyards in the far east are enormous and occupy several locations many of which are making ships as we speak... you act like it is all one building that does not have a roof on it yet.

Baltica is too busy with it's current order of Artika class icebreakers, the issue with Baltica is the archaic method of construction, they have not implemented large block construction methods (that Zvezda and other world level shipbuilders use) using Goliath class cranes or level drydocks, allowing for quick assembly and fitting out of vessels.

So a shipyard too busy making icebreakers is not contributing in your opinion because they don't build ships the way other companies build them... so essentially you are saying they are not making anything at all because they are not doing it right...

I can see why you are arguing... this has nothing to do with making ships for you clearly...

Instead it has two inclined ramps where vessels are assembled at a certain threshold weight where they then must be lowered into the water. The method is acceptable for smaller ships but for larger ships and a higher pace of construction they need to modernize the yard, which they have wanted to do for some time, such as building a covered boathouse Sevmash style, allowing them to implement block construction methods. Problem is that they would have to cease shipbuilding for a certain period of time until the work is completed, resulting in a catch 22. Which results in orders going abroad.

So they want to upgrade their shipyards but those shipyards are too busy to take the time needed for teh upgrades because they are so busy with work.

The collapse of Russian shipbuilding as we know it.

If only the Ukraine was still a friendly country... they have a lot of shipyards to spare not doing anything at all.

Severnaya is busy with it's frigates and trawlers, and is still waiting on it's 250m covered boathouse to being construction of larger vessels with block construction methods.

Admiralty is busy with submarines and other smaller ships and has no capacity for any larger orders.

Stop fucking around... talking about shipyards that are busy... so busy they don't have time for upgrades of their production capacities is hardly convincing me Russian shipbuilding is in the toilet... sounds like they are busier than they have ever been...

And in general the Russian shipbuilding suffers from old outdated equipment, construction methods, and shortage of qualified personnel, dudes from Zvezda have literally been going all around Russia hunting for welders.

Which sounds like the normal growing pains of an industry that is growing and expanding like never before... again countering your claims they are behind everyone.

You can read this article from bmpd, a somewhat biased source but the facts they present are without question, Russian yards are not capable to compete with foreign ones due to the fact that domestic yards are choking on domestic orders, they do not have enough production capacity due to the fact they use outdated construction methods as opposed to modern block construction.

Do you not understand what you are saying.

Being too busy with domestic orders for ships and not being able to handle foreign jobs is the best possible situation Russian ship building could possibly be in... in this day and age with the US and the EU keen to punish Russian for anything and everything with sanctions... why would Russian shipyards want jobs for foreign countries?

I don't think the Russian Navy will order any ships from France again either, but being able to offer work for Turkey could be a useful way of improving relations with that country and also offer Turkish shipyards some work at a time when perhaps work is hard to come by.

There is also the issue of climate, Russia is vastly colder than say Turkey, China, South Korea, etc, which requires construction of covered boathouses and their heating, which adds additional cost.

The cost is irrelevant if they have more orders on their books than they can manage.

I didn't say incompetent idiots or fucking stupid and useless, so don't be a manchild. I said they are using older machine tools, outdated methods, and in general worker shortage that holds back Russian shipbuilding compared to foreign ones.

But you talk about tonnage delivered and not productivity or ship numbers.

It's not just the Turkish drydock, but also the Turkish icebreaker, the Chinese floating hulls for the new nuclear reactors, South Korean blocks being used in Russian drydocks, Germans taking part in state orders, the list goes on.

Good... there is little to learn from building drydocks and excess icebreakers for Russian ship yards if they are already busy... Russia is working well with China and South Korea and with Turkey better ties are valuable to both sides... and Germany buys Russian gas too, so giving them work makes sense too.

The facts are that Russian domestic capacity is nowhere near enough for domestic orders whatsoever.

Sounds like fantastic news for the Russian economy, but name one country that only uses its own shipyards exclusively to produce every ship it uses in every company it has... I think that would be a list of zero... even the Chinese bought some Soviet ships, and of course the South Korean Navy has American ships as does the Japanese...

Why do you expect Russia to never buy any ships from any other country?

Terrible news for you then, Russian shipyards cannot meet current domestic demand whatsoever.

That is great news, look at the Ukraine and compare... their shipbuilding capacity has been destroyed and their economy ruined to the point where transit fees for gas crossing its territory is a significant part of its economy...

And if Russia wants to be a strong and prosperous country with high living standards, it will need a strong shipbuilding industry, which means inherently being in the position of exporting vessels to other countries, including large bulk carriers.

I totally agree, but having hundreds of thousands of wielders trained up in the 1990s and have them wait 40 years before they can enter the work force is unreasonable.

Today children at school can now know there will be jobs for wielders... with all the new armour and vehicles they are going to be needing and all the new ships... civilian and military... I would say it would be like Scotland when Billy Connolly was a boy... the schools opened their doors and the dockyards opened theirs... he was trained as a wielder... these days he would probably go straight on to the dole.

The ONLY reason I brought up military shipbuilding is because Scorpius summed both military and civil shipbuilding in order to present a larger amount of vessels in construction in Russian yards, to which I responded that it would not end well for Russia in comparing military shipbuilding between USA/Europe.

If you divide the ship production with the money spent I think the Russians would do very well from that comparison, and a large part of their ship building future is going to include building ships for their navy too... at a time when the Royal Navy can only afford 6 destroyers and those six don't seem to be very reliable either despite their high costs.

LMAO I am shallow and butthurt for not being a retarded fucking moron for going along blindly in this alt-right circlejerk of a forum that you've turned this website into?

You are right... we should be mourning that despite more sanctions from the west than ever before, Russian shipyards are struggling to keep up with domestic production requirements... they don't seem to be having enormous problems with their ships, but they also seem to take the time to properly test and sort out bugs before mass production starts, like the Lada class SSKs and the Ivan Gren class landing ships, whereas the much superior US MIC cranks out crap even without even trying to fix it... F-35, Ford class, Zumwalt, LCS....

People in the Space Program thread outright referring to American racial minorities as "sheboons" and such. This is supposed to be a respected forum? It's even more disturbing how many people liked this post by lyle.

Well I got no complaints from anyone at all regarding that and I don't even recognise sheboons as a word let alone a racial slur.

You have utterly failed in your duties as admin and Vladimir79 would be outright ashamed if he were seeing what you've turned this place into with your lax standards for forum behavior.

We are both white so we are obviously racist... why does that bother you?

Instead of moderating this forum, all you do is type out long paragraphs of meaningless diatribe.

I moderate a forum. I don't heal the sick, or convert the heathens.

Racism exists and forum censorship wont make it go away, it will just make it less obvious... like child molesting and abusing partners.

Not my job to fix the world.

Tell me, is the above screenshot acceptable behavior in your opinion for this forum? You must have seen it, it's been up on the thread since Oct 6.

First time I have seen it... I do have a life you understand.

I would not use such terms myself because I don't understand it.

I have used the word nigger on this forum and that is because I believe the western woke world is treating Russians like niggers... you can say anything you like against Russians and there are no consequences... the head of the CIA pretty much said on broadcast news that Russians were genetically predisposed to be bad... no one contradicted him or said that was wrong.

I used the word nigger not to upset black people or Russians but to upset woke western people who don't care what you call them normally, but that word is a special magical word ironically of their own creation... it is white woke people kryptonite.

Nigger is a very American centric word.. coloured people were abused and raped and murdered on every continent and called all sorts of offensive things, and worse had terrible things done to them, with their land and property stolen from them and their families, but this one word used in America is very powerful...

It is funny that the US and Ukraine voted not to ban Nazi symbols and groups... I bet they would see a ban on the word nigger differently... or would they?

Not something you can discuss in the west at all so we will never know.

...and this bullshit should not be discussed in a shipbuilding thread so I think you can work out what is going to happen to a lot of posts soon.

As for Russian shipbuilders, I didn't call them shit, or incompetent losers, I have truthfully described with facts what the actual state of Russian civil shipbuilding is and how it compares to the world.

It is your reaction and others that reveals who the true internet fanboys are, and who is the real shallow individuals here.

They are working to capacity to complete the orders they have and are upgrading their facilities as they are able to improve their efficency even further, but they are second class ship builders in your eyes... just plumbers and amateurs?

You cannot be serious, are you trying to bring in WW2 Pacific Theatre combat deaths in a comparison with Russia's current shipbuilding safety records?

You brought up lost submarines... a fire in landing ships in China and Russia and the US... only in the US did they let it burn out... yet all three had fires...

Guess Russian shipbuilders are worse then rowboat-carpenters in your opinion then because it is the USA grappling with delays on supercarriers, and Russia struggling with frigate production and small missile boats.

Americans don't make cruisers as good as the new Russian Frigates, and their new Frigates to replace the LCS disasters are made in Europe... but I thought you wanted to keep the military out of this?

How many people have died working on Adm Kuz compared to Richard Bonhomme?

Who knows, I doubt we would ever get accurate figures from the Americans...

I have yet to see USA submarine hulls crumpling like paper over this issue, obviously a black mark on American submarine builders, but I don't see this exactly excusing the incredible delays over Yasen-M and Lada.

The steel only failed in low temperatures, so it will be the shift to the arctic that will be the real test...

You get incredible delays on SSNs when you spend 65 billion a year on your military... give the Russians 800 billion and I am sure they could do a lot better...

A better question is for the US... where is their value for money?

Privilege of having a lot of money then, failed American programs give three 17k tonne missile cruisers, mind telling me how many of such vessels have been produced at Russian Federation yards? We will see how Super Gorshkov and Lider turn out.

So it is OK to waste money when you have a lot... so everything is fine... just carry on. The Russians are building their navy and civilian shipping fleet but everything is perfect in the west too... no problems at all.

This is good and healthy and I encourage you not to care.

Also in what universe are you lumping Russia with the Asian shipbuilders of China, SK, and Japan?

Russia has been rejected by Europe, so why not identify as Asian...

Russia is microscopic in comparison with those three in terms of deadweight output and gross tons.

Yet adds a technology level they all lack... Russia will never have a world market of customers demanding they make ships for them, and there would be marginal potential for profit levels to justify even attempting such a thing, but they can make their own civilian and military vessels to suit their own specific needs and that will be fine.

As I keep saying, Japan outproduces Russia by a order of magnitude, stop deluding yourself that they are head to head.

Only you seem to care.

Aircraft carriers are slowly losing importance against advanced opponents. The US can use them to scare the banana republics.

Ironically the Russians never lost their solution to US carriers, but the US lacks the solution to any future Russian carrier... so air defence carriers will remain as useful as they have ever been, but strike carriers not so much.

Russia was only recently rebuilding it's ship building industry and still has to localize production of various key components. Like engines. This will take more time and while Russia has boomed in previous years in shipbuilding, it still isn't ahead or on par yet with nations who have a solid and long functioning civil ship building infrastructure and industry.

Shipbuilding has not boomed in Russia in the last 30 years, it is only the hard ground work they have been doing that has turned that around and led them to the place they are now, where no one disputes they have more work than they can currently handle despite upgrades and work on improving things in multiple yards... anyone would think you are a talking about the Ukrainian shipyards... which we are told are world class... by the government of the Ukraine.

The butthurt troll is parroting the usual Russia=fail drivel. When Russian shipyards are putting out world class ships and are back-logged
with orders that is clearly a total fail. By contrast, conversion of Ukr shipyards into cheap real estate for service sector activity is
a total win and is superior ship building.

I think attacking the moderator with false accusations should merit a prolonged vacation. Naturally trolling would merit such.
I see no useful contribution by the butthurt troll.

miketheterrible wrote:I agree with x_54 to an extent.

Russia was only recently rebuilding it's ship building industry and still has to localize production of various key components. Like engines.  This will take more time and while Russia has boomed in previous years in shipbuilding, it still isn't ahead or on par yet with nations who have a solid and long functioning civil ship building infrastructure and industry.

It will take time but eventually happen.

If you count military vessels, it is doing well as well, but still not on top yet (besides subs).

Why so much discussion about the long road when there is such intense development in Russia's ship building sector?
This discussion is troll-induced nonsense. Show me another country that produces the icebreakers that Russia does.
There is no requirement for Russia to displace every product line on the planet. If it does not make some product, then
it does not need it and it is perfectly normal to buy it abroad. Also, the US cannot sanction ships that are of importance
for Russia. All the key tankers, research vessels, fishery ships, etc. are produced in Russia.

Dunno, since they are building Zvezda shipyard, they clearly see the need for massive ships in the near future.

Things are way better now than it was before, no doubt about that. But what I think the other person is asking is how many ships in total per country built per year.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Now the measure of shipbuilding is export. Cool. Lets see how many ships South Korea and Japan will be constructing after the next credit crunch or the hyperinflation destroys the western financial system.

I wonder how he would describe ship production in China or South Korea or Japan if they couldn't keep up with the work they had and were busy refurbishing shipyards and building new shipyards as fast as they could to keep up with present demand that was increasing...

Well, to be honest I am not so interested in his opinions any more really...

Thank you owais.usmani and Shadåw for getting back on topic

Moving stuff to talking bollocks thread....

GarryB wrote:So like I said... nobody claimed Russia was leading.

Hilarious, Japan and South Korea are world leaders in civil shipbuilding, as well as China.

They are made world leaders and recognized so because of their vast industrial output by any metric, sophisticated shipbuilding methods and techniques that are imitated by others, and control over the world market.

To name yourself as no2 or no3 in the world of civil shipbuilding, thereby displacing South Korea or Japan is to inherently lay claim to a leader in civil shipbuilding?

It is exactly what people were claiming. Do I need to give the exact quotes for you?

Or do you think that if someone aren't no1 then they are shit?

Because they are a nation full of rivers and if they included every tin pot row boat in their production numbers it would be tens of thousands.

Again, did you try doing elementary research on what shipyards are putting what kind of ships into the water? Numbers, GarryB, numbers.

Boats that move on rivers are not sauce pans... nor are they chocolate Blancmange puddings. A vessel that sails on a river is also a ship... there is no requirement for a ship to be a sea going vessel. Ships for rivers still need to be constructed and shipyards are intended for making ships.

Do you have a point here? Yeah, a ship is a ship. Doesn't mean that producing 10 river transporters is the same as producing 10 Aframax carriers just because 10 = 10. A river transporter is vastly simpler and easier to construct than something like a Maersk container vessel.

Which makes sense because they have a lot of rivers within their national borders... river boats are still boats.

Again, it's not about what constitutes a boat, it's about the fact that a 8k ton dry cargo boat running on the Volga is not the same as an Aframax in terms of complexity and level of construction.

It's like lifting 400kg and 8kg, and then portraying them as equal because you only needed to lift 8kg.

The development of the Zvezda ship yards being built by South Korea is and was always intended to be done in stages... I seem to remember the last stages were set for 2022 so it is probably almost complete but the Zvezda shipyards in the far east are enormous and occupy several locations many of which are making ships as we speak... you act like it is all one building that does not have a roof on it yet.

I most certainly do not. I have described the truth about Zvezda, most of it's capacity is unfinished in terms of metalworking, and it has half of it's planned personnel, only its assembly points such as slipway and drydock are finished. In terms of actual metal output, it is low and will be likely for another year.

You would know this yourself if you actually bothered to learn anything.

o a shipyard too busy making icebreakers is not contributing in your opinion because they don't build ships the way other companies build them... so essentially you are saying they are not making anything at all because they are not doing it right...

I can see why you are arguing... this has nothing to do with making ships for you clearly...

This is absurd strawmanning, Russia's nuclear icebreaker fleet is a point of pride for Russia and rightfully so, so don't bullshit me by telling me that I am trying to say that these ships don't "count".

I have informed you that Baltica is in need of reconstruction, it has not been able to do so because entering a reconstruction phase would interrupt it's deliveries of vital replacements for the Soviet-era icebreaker fleet.



This was the general plan, which included construction of a full covered drydock, akin to Zvezda(just enclosed). However it is pretty much on hold due to need to construct the new icebreakers.

So yeah Garry, I am not arguing anything other than how making ships should be. Baltica is using older launch methods for it's vessels, which is the inclined ramp method, which prohibits usage of large block assembly, and requires launching the boat at a certain threshold weight due to the fact that the inclined slipway has weight limitations, meaning that the unfinished vessels has to be finished at at a pier, as compared to having ready to use blocks attached to the vessel in drydock and then launched at near full readiness for sea trials.

Facts are that Baltzavod is in need of reconstruction and modernization in order to increase Russia's shipbuilding output to meet domestic demand, the Russians themselves know it, don't try to deny it.

So they want to upgrade their shipyards but those shipyards are too busy to take the time needed for teh upgrades because they are so busy with work.

The collapse of Russian shipbuilding as we know it.

If only the Ukraine was still a friendly country... they have a lot of shipyards to spare not doing anything at all.

Is strawmanning all you know? I didn't say there was any collapse of Russian shipbuilding, I have recognized the fact that it has increased in leaps and bounds recently, doesn't mean there aren't severe issues with Russian shipbuilding currently.

I also find it hilarious that you mention Ukraine? Is that the only standard that Russia should strive to be better than?

Stop fucking around... talking about shipyards that are busy... so busy they don't have time for upgrades of their production capacities is hardly convincing me Russian shipbuilding is in the toilet... sounds like they are busier than they have ever been...

Yeah they are busy, with not meeting Russian domestic demand. No toilet involved whatsoever.

hich sounds like the normal growing pains of an industry that is growing and expanding like never before... again countering your claims they are behind everyone.

LMFAO. They are indeed growing, and they are still indeed behind world industry and practice. The only civil yard that could really be considered modern is Zvezda, and it is not finished.

Garry, you should know that growing does not mean you are not behind.

Do you not understand what you are saying.

Being too busy with domestic orders for ships and not being able to handle foreign jobs is the best possible situation Russian ship building could possibly be in... in this day and age with the US and the EU keen to punish Russian for anything and everything with sanctions... why would Russian shipyards want jobs for foreign countries?

I don't think the Russian Navy will order any ships from France again either, but being able to offer work for Turkey could be a useful way of improving relations with that country and also offer Turkish shipyards some work at a time when perhaps work is hard to come by.

They sure are busy with not meeting domestic demand for it's own vessels, do you enjoy seeing Russian money sent abroad?

And why shouldn't they strive to be considered for foreign orders? Do you think Russians aren't capable? That they shouldn't strive to achieve more and more?

If Russia is to be a strong modern nation with high incomes and living standards, then a strong shipbuilding industry is an absolute requirement, for both civil and military, and that is indeed meaning that Russian shipbuilding is capable of competing for international shipbuilding contracts for small and large vessels of all kinds.

The cost is irrelevant if they have more orders on their books than they can manage.

That is an incredibly stupid statement. Russian industry should not strive to increase labor efficiency and productivity just because it is struggling to meet domestic demand?

But you talk about tonnage delivered and not productivity or ship numbers.

I can certainly talk about productivity and ship numbers, Russian shipyards do not compete with premier shipyards in China, South Korea, and Japan, in efficiency, speed, or number of vessels produced.

I use tonnage delivered, in both total deadweight and gross tons because it is the best way to compare shipbuilding nations, it takes into account both simple weight(bulk carriers), and cost(high complexity vessels).

I am sorry to inform you Garry, but building a 8k ton Volga dry cargo transporter is not the same as building an Aframax tanker or bulk cargo carrier. If you feel that you have better metrics, then present them. It is numbers that matter, not delusions of grandeur.

Good... there is little to learn from building drydocks and excess icebreakers for Russian ship yards if they are already busy... Russia is working well with China and South Korea and with Turkey better ties are valuable to both sides... and Germany buys Russian gas too, so giving them work makes sense too.

You enjoy Russian taxpayer money sent abroad? How patriotic and supportive you are. To a country that shot down a Russian Su-24 resulting in the death of a pilot.

Sounds like fantastic news for the Russian economy, but name one country that only uses its own shipyards exclusively to produce every ship it uses in every company it has... I think that would be a list of zero... even the Chinese bought some Soviet ships, and of course the South Korean Navy has American ships as does the Japanese...

Why do you expect Russia to never buy any ships from any other country?

How is this fantastic news for the Russian economy? Are you insane? Significant orders are being sent abroad because domestic shipyards are not capable of fulfilling demand.

I also find your demand silly, no country on earth is an absolute autarky, USSR tried and you know how its story ends. But every country on earth can be divided into a net importer, and a net exporter, and currently Russia is a net importer in terms of shipbuilding. It imports vital services, know-how, techniques, software, machinery, engines, hulls, even entire ships outright.

I would very much prefer Russia to be the net exporter category, earning high income and known for technical and industrial might of shipbuilding.

That is great news, look at the Ukraine and compare... their shipbuilding capacity has been destroyed and their economy ruined to the point where transit fees for gas crossing its territory is a significant part of its economy...

You are beyond reason. How is this great news? You are a madman, pure and simple.

Again, why the **** you are comparing to Ukraine? the poorest nation in Europe? You are such a supporter and lover of Russia that you set such low standards for her?

I totally agree, but having hundreds of thousands of wielders trained up in the 1990s and have them wait 40 years before they can enter the work force is unreasonable.

Today children at school can now know there will be jobs for wielders... with all the new armour and vehicles they are going to be needing and all the new ships... civilian and military... I would say it would be like Scotland when Billy Connolly was a boy... the schools opened their doors and the dockyards opened theirs... he was trained as a wielder... these days he would probably go straight on to the dole.

Hundreds of thousands? Zvezda is currently 3.5k out of 7 or so(wonders of modern shipbuilding that such massive vessels can be constructed with so few people). Russia cannot fill it currently, they literally have recruiters hunting for welders and other workers across all of Russia. It is a bottleneck severely hindering domestic construction.

Not to mention the fact that Russia is still reliant on imported components and such for domestic shipbuilding. Don't believe me? Take it from Rakhmanov, General Director of United Shipbuilding Corporation, in his own words of his own interview to Vedomosti newspaper.

Or is he a Russophobic foreign agent?

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4318911.html

Some quotes for you of general note.

our goal is to achieve profitability at the level of the global market, within 10%, but now we often work at 5% and at a loss, to be honest. In general, of course, the more, the better and more efficient from the point of view of the development of enterprises.

I would not say that now we have a problem with shipyards. They have a very decent download volume - up to 100% in many cases. We constantly have more than 70 units of military equipment in service - this is a huge amount of work. Ship repair is a segment in which we have been fulfilling the state defense order by almost 100% for the last five years, exactly 100% is not working out only because, unfortunately, we process paperwork longer than repairing or servicing ships.

Last year you discussed with the President that USC has an extremely low level of localization - 25%, but it could be 70%. - Localization is our war, but we definitely cannot stand it alone. How can we influence localization if 70% of our production costs are purchased products that are not produced by us, that is, we control only 30% of the production costs? In the end, it is not we who are responsible for localization, but the customer, who dictates the composition of the product: what he wants to see, which manufacturer, from which country - often it is up to 90% of imports. For example, on the Viktor Chernomyrdin icebreaker recently built for Rosmorport, everything is Polish, German, Dutch, etc. But we cannot tell the customer no. wrote:

South Korea is one of the leaders in the world shipbuilding industry. Among the practices that we have adopted from colleagues, we can name the integrated implementation of large-block shipbuilding, and the introduction of storage and transportation technology for liquefied gas and modern ship equipment for working with LNG, and, of course, advanced management practices - both enterprise management and project management. management.

I of course, selected quotes to prove the points that I have made previously, but I HIGHLY recommend you read the interview in full, so you can get an actual informed opinion.

If you divide the ship production with the money spent I think the Russians would do very well from that comparison, and a large part of their ship building future is going to include building ships for their navy too... at a time when the Royal Navy can only afford 6 destroyers and those six don't seem to be very reliable either despite their high costs.

Direct money comparisons is a very difficult thing to do with Russia, due to mainly the incorrect discrepancy between the ruble, and the dollar amount that is used for direct comparisons, with it being undervalued by 60 percent of what it should be.

I also again don't know why you keep wanting to step on rakes here with military shipbuilding, Britain built two new aircraft carriers, with electric propulsion, and destroyers as well. You can let me know when Russian shipbuilding industry can or has done the same.

You are right... we should be mourning that despite more sanctions from the west than ever before, Russian shipyards are struggling to keep up with domestic production requirements... they don't seem to be having enormous problems with their ships, but they also seem to take the time to properly test and sort out bugs before mass production starts, like the Lada class SSKs and the Ivan Gren class landing ships, whereas the much superior US MIC cranks out crap even without even trying to fix it... F-35, Ford class, Zumwalt, LCS....

How is struggling to keep up a good thing? You are seriously trying to say that Russians aren't having enormous problems with lead ship construction and induction? How long did it take for Severodvinsk and Adm. Gorshkov to enter service? What about their serial ships?

Lada is in absolute coma in terms of progress, and so is Gren, they have taken forever, how about you actually present numbers and comparisons instead of just words? What was the time taken for their construction and induction compared to other vessels? Why not look for yourself the promises made by Russian MIC? And then the absolute failure to keep to the schedule?

And again, Zumwalt, three ships built and in trials, how many 17k ton surface combatants have been built in the Russian Federation?

Ford class, yet again, America struggles with worlds largest supercarrier with first in the world systems for launch and retrieval of aircraft based on electromagnetic systems, and Russia has only just started serial acceptance of Gorshkov class frigate and Yasen-M SSGN.

F-35 is somewhere around 700 constructed, how many Su-57s?

Provide some numbers Garry, some facts. You want direct comparison between the two? Here you are.

Well I got no complaints from anyone at all regarding that and I don't even recognise sheboons as a word let alone a racial slur.

Oh so no complaints then it is fine? No personal imitative could ever possibly be expected for you. If you don't think "sheboon" is an insult, plus a reference to fried chicken as an degrading insult towards African-Americans, then I highly suggest you learn what the word is meant as and maybe not have your head in the sand.

I mean seriously, you think it is acceptable for a thread discussing Russian space program, something worth having a dignified and presentable conversation over, should have posts with racial slurs and degrading racial minorities in it?

We are both white so we are obviously racist... why does that bother you?

I am white, but I am not a racist. Good to know you are.

I moderate a forum. I don't heal the sick, or convert the heathens.

Racism exists and forum censorship wont make it go away, it will just make it less obvious... like child molesting and abusing partners.

Not my job to fix the world.

You are failing to moderate this forum. Your job is indeed not to heal the sick or such, it is to moderate this forum entrusted to your care.

And yes, racism exists, and it doesn't belong in this forum, your job is to make sure that it isn't present here and you have failed.

First time I have seen it... I do have a life you understand.

I would not use such terms myself because I don't understand it.

I have used the word nigger on this forum and that is because I believe the western woke world is treating Russians like niggers... you can say anything you like against Russians and there are no consequences... the head of the CIA pretty much said on broadcast news that Russians were genetically predisposed to be bad... no one contradicted him or said that was wrong.

I used the word nigger not to upset black people or Russians but to upset woke western people who don't care what you call them normally, but that word is a special magical word ironically of their own creation... it is white woke people kryptonite.

Nigger is a very American centric word.. coloured people were abused and raped and murdered on every continent and called all sorts of offensive things, and worse had terrible things done to them, with their land and property stolen from them and their families, but this one word used in America is very powerful...

It is funny that the US and Ukraine voted not to ban Nazi symbols and groups... I bet they would see a ban on the word nigger differently... or would they?

Not something you can discuss in the west at all so we will never know.

...and this bullshit should not be discussed in a shipbuilding thread so I think you can work out what is going to happen to a lot of posts soon.

First time you have seen it? It has been up since Oct 6, you even posted in the same page as it.

As for the rest of your paragraph, it is disgusting that you think it is acceptable behavior for forum administrator to be using such language so casually, I don't care how you think western world is treating Russians, it is simply unacceptable behavior to use such words at your position on this forum. It is disgusting. For God's sake, you have PAID adverts on this site, what would sponsors think if they found out?

They are working to capacity to complete the orders they have and are upgrading their facilities as they are able to improve their efficency even further, but they are second class ship builders in your eyes... just plumbers and amateurs?

And again, I didn't call them plumbers or amateurs, I have described issues that have persisted in Russian shipbuilding and even give you direct quotes from head of USC, as well as production figures for Russian industry and compared them to world leaders of China, South Korea, and Japan.

The fact of the matter is that Russian shipbuilding has severe problems, yes it is growing at excellent rate, but nonetheless it is hindered even at it's current level.

These problems are, in summary, reliance on foreign components, outdated tooling, outdated construction techniques, outdated shipyards, shortage of personnel, out of date government regulations and standards that hamper adoption of new techniques and equipment, high debtload of shipyards and their corporations, poor pay from military orders, and others.

Growing or not, these problems exist and pretending they don't is counterproductive.

Don't like my assertions? Provide evidence they are wrong, unfortunately for you, even those at the top agree with me, and not with you. But I am not an arrogant man, and I do not dismiss facts and evidence because I don't agree with them or I don't like what they say, you want to have your say? Then show me your proof, show me your reasoning, because all I see is you defending Russian civil shipbuilding for the sake of doing so due to ideological Russophilic inclinations, not in any basis of reality.

ou brought up lost submarines... a fire in landing ships in China and Russia and the US... only in the US did they let it burn out... yet all three had fires...

And? Richard Bonhomme had zero deaths, and US Navy has other vessels in its class, a disaster to be sure, and in no way is ignorable on the part of the US Navy, but current Russian shipyard safety leaves much to be desired, a sunken drydock that was vital to the repair of Adm Kuz and all the ships of the Northern Fleet, fires on Adm Kuz and others, they have left broken families.

So again, in modern times and reality, how does Japan, Britain, or US exactly have the lead on Russia in terms of deaths?

Japan has no operational fixed wing carrier, neither does Russia. Britain has two, and USA has 11 supercarrier groups as well as 9 or so amphib. assault vessels capable of operating fixed wing VTOL aircraft.

You claim these countries have had worse accidents and deaths in their naval service, show me the proof, what numbers in what timeframe?

Show some actual evidence instead of just claiming it.

Americans don't make cruisers as good as the new Russian Frigates, and their new Frigates to replace the LCS disasters are made in Europe... but I thought you wanted to keep the military out of this?

Really? What way does Zumwalt concede to Gorshkov? Gorshkov does get the more advanced Zircon but it is not in service, and Americans are not stupid in any way, do you you think them incapable of producing a VLS based hypersonic missile at some point in time?

LCS disasters? In what way? Inform me. Show me your reasoning, just because you call them disasters doesn't magically make them so. You are most certainly not God.

And yeah, I do prefer to discuss civil shipbuilding, this discussion started with people claiming that Russia displaced either S. Korea or Japan to become either 2nd or 3rd in world civil shipbuilding, this is factually absurd.

Who knows, I doubt we would ever get accurate figures from the Americans...

LMFAO, what's next? Did they fake the moon landing as well? Are there hundreds of deaths on American naval vessels now as well?

It must be impossible to comprehend to you the fact that Americans simply have a better safety record on their vessels than Russia, I suggest you learn to digest this, reality is not merciful to those who delude themselves to the obvious.

So again, provide your own reasoning and facts/numbers as to why you think Russia has a better safety record than the USA.

The steel only failed in low temperatures, so it will be the shift to the arctic that will be the real test...

You get incredible delays on SSNs when you spend 65 billion a year on your military... give the Russians 800 billion and I am sure they could do a lot better...

A better question is for the US... where is their value for money?

Do I need to remind you that American subs operate in the Artic, participating in ICEX exercises all the time?

Also again, direct money comparisons to not work with Russia, mainly due to severe currency devaluation by almost 60 percent than what it should be. They most certainly spend much more in equivalent than 65 billion. To believe the 65 billion you would have to also believe in Russian economy being the same size as Italy, it is just false and absurd.

So it is OK to waste money when you have a lot... so everything is fine... just carry on. The Russians are building their navy and civilian shipping fleet but everything is perfect in the west too... no problems at all.

This is good and healthy and I encourage you not to care.

I never claimed everything is good and perfect in Western military shipbuilding, I have simply informed you of the obvious, an American navalbuilding program failure results in three 17k tonne surface combatants entering service, with the knowledge gained being used in upgrades of legacy classes and future designs.

Point to me three 17k tonne or so surface combatants inducted in Russian Federation service with being built in the Russian Federation.

Russia has been rejected by Europe, so why not identify as Asian...

Russia does not identify as Asian, 80 percent of it's population lives in the western part of Russia, exactly in Eastern Europe.

Yet adds a technology level they all lack... Russia will never have a world market of customers demanding they make ships for them, and there would be marginal potential for profit levels to justify even attempting such a thing, but they can make their own civilian and military vessels to suit their own specific needs and that will be fine.

Customers of Asian shipyards showed up magically and forked over money for them demanding they build ships for them? They worked hard for their results, you have no right to strip them of their accomplishments.

Only you seem to care.

LMFAO, do I need to pull up the quotes for you? People here were going on with a straight face that Russia had displaced S.Korea or Japan. It's not true, and now that the truth is undeniable you resort to child-like responses?

Shipbuilding has not boomed in Russia in the last 30 years, it is only the hard ground work they have been doing that has turned that around and led them to the place they are now, where no one disputes they have more work than they can currently handle despite upgrades and work on improving things in multiple yards... anyone would think you are a talking about the Ukrainian shipyards... which we are told are world class... by the government of the Ukraine.

So only comparison for Russia should now be poorest country in Europe headed by morons who took power supported by right wing fascists?

You feel that they are so terrible and awful, why compare Russia to them then? Russia should shoot for the top, unless you think you aren't capable.

I wonder how he would describe ship production in China or South Korea or Japan if they couldn't keep up with the work they had and were busy refurbishing shipyards and building new shipyards as fast as they could to keep up with present demand that was increasing...

Again, you compare industries with entire orders of magnitude difference in output, sophistication, and efficiently. These three countries have more than 90 percent of the market between them.

What problems and successes they have are of little concern to Russian shipbuilding industry. You are supporting a person that struggles to lift a 5kg lift and fails to do so at times, with a person(or three I guess), that each succeed in setting world records of lifting several hundred kgs regularly.

You want to know scale of difference? Russia's largest and most capable shipyard has just two goliath cranes, South Korea's largest shipyard has ELEVEN.

Stop talking about China/South Korea/Japan and their shipbuilding industries, their only use of Russia directly is the importation of knowledge and techniques in order to develop its own.

Well, to be honest I am not so interested in his opinions any more really...

To be honest GarryB, I think it is more that you are not really capable of holding an actual conversation and discussion using actual facts, logic, comparisons, and reason, at least that is what you have shown me with your replies.

All you have responded with is outright strawmanning and simply coming up with conjecture and statements that you do not provide any actual basis for, no numbers, facts, comparisons, anything.

In terms of sheer output capacity and tonnage not even the US can compete with either the Chinese, Korean or Japanese shipbuilding industry. The vast majority of ships being built are civil or commercial contracts but if any of these countries decide to concentrate on military shipbuilding nobody will even come close to the number of ships and subs they would be able to churn out.

If you look at the rapid rate all these navies were able to modernize over a very short period in terms of shipbuilding it should be pretty clear. In the Cold War period much of the South Korean and Japanese Navies were decked out in second hand US ships and subs and the Chinese basically had an brown water navy with a huge number of obsolete Romeo class submarines. This was the case through much of the Cold War.

When the Cold War "ended" most of the NATO navies and Russia went into a downsizing spiral with Greece and Turkey the only exception as they benefited greatly. Russia was the hardest hit by far and even lost a number of modern ships - mostly through neglect.

Not so in the Far East though. Even countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam and Indonesia had a huge naval "revamp" and are equipped with very modern and capable naval vessels. Today China has a huge blue water navy and it is still expanding at a rapid rate. Much the same goes for South Korea and Japan - each with aircraft carriers building or planned for the near future.

Hilarious, Japan and South Korea are world leaders in civil shipbuilding, as well as China.

Yeah, that is why Russia paid Austria to build some modern shipyards in Russia for them... no, wait a minute... I think that was South Korea... but according to you that money was wasted because they are still not even in the game yet...

They are made world leaders and recognized so because of their vast industrial output by any metric, sophisticated shipbuilding methods and techniques that are imitated by others, and control over the world market.

I suspect you are confusing leading the world with being world leading.

A Zircon anti ship missile is the pinnacle of anti ship missiles.... if Russia sold the production rights to build Zircon missiles for themselves to Algeria... Algeria would become a country that is world leading in terms of anti ship missiles.

They wouldn't suddenly then be supplying 40% or 50% or any large percentage of the Anti ship missiles being bought around the world, but the missiles they were making would be some of the best you could get from anyone.

I am pretty sure the South Koreans have an agreement with Russia that the new shipyard they are building and the skills and tools and methods they are revealing will not be used to take work and customers away from South Korea and will be used largely for domestic production at least for a period of years or decades or they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

But lets not discuss it like adults... lets just have tantrums and bitch and moan...

To name yourself as no2 or no3 in the world of civil shipbuilding, thereby displacing South Korea or Japan is to inherently lay claim to a leader in civil shipbuilding?

In what context though? A magazine that does articles on River boats might say Russia now dominates production of river boats made in Russia... being a Russian magazine or website... would they be wrong? How many river boats does SK or Japan or China make domestically or for foreign customers?

It is exactly what people were claiming. Do I need to give the exact quotes for you?

Or do you think that if someone aren't no1 then they are shit?

The comments were in a thread about Russian civilian shipbuilding and they were happy that it has turned around and is booming... to the point you admit yourself they can barely keep up and are turning some work away.
Sound to me like they are doing exceptionally well but if you are butt hurt about it then create a civilian ship building thread in an appropriate section for Japan and China and South Korea and anyone else you please and post some articles about how they are all coming through the Covid situation with flying colours and are also struggling to keep up with excessive demand too...

Again, did you try doing elementary research on what shipyards are putting what kind of ships into the water? Numbers, GarryB, numbers.

You are the one that said numbers don't matter and tonnage is everything now you are changing your tune because that suits... which is why I probably wont really take you very seriously on this subject any more.

Do you have a point here? Yeah, a ship is a ship. Doesn't mean that producing 10 river transporters is the same as producing 10 Aframax carriers just because 10 = 10. A river transporter is vastly simpler and easier to construct than something like a Maersk container vessel.

The shipyards build what the customers want... right now they seem to be renewing their river fleets... but they are also producing plenty of tankers and icebreakers and cargo ships too.

You are the one saying tonnage is the measure... well doesn't that already skew the production values towards heavy sea going vessels already?

Amusing you think countries need sea going ships and not river going ships... how do you expect them to get raw materials to ports... row boats... then WTF would they need big ocean going ships if their ports are supplied via tiny little row boats?

Again, it's not about what constitutes a boat, it's about the fact that a 8k ton dry cargo boat running on the Volga is not the same as an Aframax in terms of complexity and level of construction.

They also make some of the best SSNs and SSBNs and SSKs on the planet, as well as the worlds largest heaviest cruisers are being upgraded and new ships being designed and built as we speak.

Perhaps they are making dry cargo boats because they need dry cargo boats and they don't need your faggot sea going ship just yet?

It's like lifting 400kg and 8kg, and then portraying them as equal because you only needed to lift 8kg.

But they need 50 people carrying 8kgs to fill the capacity of the 1 person that is carrying the 400kgs to take it overseas... without those river boats those sea boats sit in port waiting for cargo longer doing nothing... or leave the port empty and lose money for the company that owns it.

You would know this yourself if you actually bothered to learn anything.

Learning it from you is like pulling your own teeth... I would rather not bother... even assuming you are right which I now doubt.

I have informed you that Baltica is in need of reconstruction, it has not been able to do so because entering a reconstruction phase would interrupt it's deliveries of vital replacements for the Soviet-era icebreaker fleet.

So why are you venting like a little bitch because they are behind everyone in everything and cannot be at the big boy table of shipbuilders?

So yeah Garry, I am not arguing anything other than how making ships should be. Baltica is using older launch methods for it's vessels, which is the inclined ramp method, which prohibits usage of large block assembly, and requires launching the boat at a certain threshold weight due to the fact that the inclined slipway has weight limitations, meaning that the unfinished vessels has to be finished at at a pier, as compared to having ready to use blocks attached to the vessel in drydock and then launched at near full readiness for sea trials.

So the way they are doing it is not as fast as they could possibly be doing it... who cares... they are working at capacity... once they catch up with the work they will be able to switch to the faster method... why are you moaning they are too busy?

Facts are that Baltzavod is in need of reconstruction and modernization in order to increase Russia's shipbuilding output to meet domestic demand, the Russians themselves know it, don't try to deny it.

Bet they were wishing it was the 1990s again and the Americans were telling them they don't need a ship making industry... they have oil and gas and can buy all the ships they need from somewhere else...

I didn't say there was any collapse of Russian shipbuilding, I have recognized the fact that it has increased in leaps and bounds recently, doesn't mean there aren't severe issues with Russian shipbuilding currently.

Sounds like the best sort of problems they could hope for...

I also find it hilarious that you mention Ukraine? Is that the only standard that Russia should strive to be better than?

They were once Russia, so a slice of Russia that has been embraced by the EU and the US and the west... rich fertile soils... enormous infrastructure left over from the Soviet period including their largest and best shipyards, not to mention companies and factories making missiles and rockets and engines... they must be in heaven by now...

They have more in common with the Ukraine than they do with China or South Korea or Japan...

Yeah they are busy, with not meeting Russian domestic demand. No toilet involved whatsoever.

What a terrible cross for them to bear.

Garry, you should know that growing does not mean you are not behind.

Your definition of a world class shipyard would be to seize a large percentage of the worlds demand for building ships... Russia does not need that nor would I think it would want that... even if every shipyard in Russia was upgraded to South Korean level they are not going to suddenly steal all the customers from Japan and China and South Korea so your complaints that every Russian shipyard is not state of the art high tech leading the field is amusing at best.

They sure are busy with not meeting domestic demand for it's own vessels, do you enjoy seeing Russian money sent abroad?

It is unavoidable isn't it? Shutting down all their shipyards for a year or more to upgrade them would lead to even more Russian money going abroad wouldn't it?

This is clearly their base alternative for now.

And why shouldn't they strive to be considered for foreign orders? Do you think Russians aren't capable? That they shouldn't strive to achieve more and more?

Russian companies are going to be expanding to sell products around the world totally bypassing the west, for which they will need their own transport means, so going forward their best bet is to produce what they need now and certainly upgrade facilities but I would not bother trying to expand their ship building capacity to meet the worlds needs because the worlds needs are already being met and that would be a total waste of their money.

If Russia is to be a strong modern nation with high incomes and living standards, then a strong shipbuilding industry is an absolute requirement, for both civil and military, and that is indeed meaning that Russian shipbuilding is capable of competing for international shipbuilding contracts for small and large vessels of all kinds.

I don't agree... their ship building industry does not have to supply the worlds needs for new ships for Russians to have a better standard of living... they do need their own independent shipping fleet that cannot be denied access to the world, but they don't have to provide that capacity for everyone.

As they expand globally and become a global trader they might end up making ships for other countries, but equally if those countries get their ships made in China or South Korea or Japan it is not a problem for Russia...

Russia is not looking for exclusive trade with anyone.

That is an incredibly stupid statement. Russian industry should not strive to increase labor efficiency and productivity just because it is struggling to meet domestic demand?

Interesting interpretation of a statement that was basically profit margin is not everything.

I can certainly talk about productivity and ship numbers, Russian shipyards do not compete with premier shipyards in China, South Korea, and Japan, in efficiency, speed, or number of vessels produced.

Again... you flip flop... tonnage is not everything?

I use tonnage delivered, in both total deadweight and gross tons because it is the best way to compare shipbuilding nations, it takes into account both simple weight(bulk carriers), and cost(high complexity vessels).

It is a good way to determine market share in the industry, but not a huge amount else... how efficient are those Chinese yards... for all we know they might be just throwing manpower and money and ending up with heavy products with lots of ballast so they stay upright. Not to slight the Chinese at all, but any country could get into the top ten tonnage delivered by just making lots of very heavy and very simple ships that are not very good but sell because they are cheap.

I am sorry to inform you Garry, but building a 8k ton Volga dry cargo transporter is not the same as building an Aframax tanker or bulk cargo carrier. If you feel that you have better metrics, then present them. It is numbers that matter, not delusions of grandeur.

You make it sound like a river boat is picking at a scab and bulk cargo carrier is brain surgery... I think it is you that has the delusions of grandeur... they are just trucks and vans to transport stuff from place to place....

You enjoy Russian taxpayer money sent abroad?

If Russia needs a drydock and Turkey can build it for them so that other more urgent things like Icebreakers etc can continue to be built what is the problem.

If the alternative is no drydock then it makes no sense to save the money for later because not having the dry dock will hold up lots of other things that might depend on having a drydock available in the near future.

How is this fantastic news for the Russian economy? Are you insane? Significant orders are being sent abroad because domestic shipyards are not capable of fulfilling demand.

Insignificant orders are going overseas.... like they have always done... plenty of stuff the Soviets had was made in foreign shipyards including Sweden and Finland and eastern european countries too.

But every country on earth can be divided into a net importer, and a net exporter, and currently Russia is a net importer in terms of shipbuilding.

Bullshit, the fact that their shipyards are all running to capacity suggests domestic production is likely providing for domestic needs... lots of technology areas have been blocked by the west via sanctions and they are filling those gaps over time as they can.

Russia is probably the closest country on the planet to being independent in terms of defence and food and resources... and they are expanding in all directions too.

It imports vital services, know-how, techniques, software, machinery, engines, hulls, even entire ships outright.

Everybody does that, but because of sanctions Russia is having to look to its own companies to meet their needs and they are doing it more and more all the time because foreign suppliers are unreliable.

I would very much prefer Russia to be the net exporter category, earning high income and known for technical and industrial might of shipbuilding.

In the current west centric world that could never happen... there are plenty of countries that would love to buy Russian technology, but a lot of that is not for sale to anyone.

You are beyond reason. How is this great news? You are a madman, pure and simple.

That they are head and shoulders above their neighbour despite their neighbour being helped and supported by the rich west, what is not to celebrate for Russia.

For Ukraine it looks bleak, but for Russia it is a stark reminder of what the west had in store for them... a very lucky escape.

Again, why the **** you are comparing to Ukraine? the poorest nation in Europe? You are such a supporter and lover of Russia that you set such low standards for her?

If Russia had weak easily manipulated politicians who cared about themselves and their own bank balances more than they cared about the country they were supposed to be representing then looking at the Ukraine now is what Russia would be in a few years time... foreign companies owning anything of value and the people struggling to keep their houses warm in winter.

Putin is making Gazprom pump gas through Ukrainian pipes to make sure they don't suffer too much for the decisions of their government but you can bet Kiev will piss that money away to bank accounts somewhere anyway...

Europeans love to compare Russia with Poland to show how years and years of money from the EU can make an economy look OK despite fundamental problems... see Europes system is better than Russias system... even when it isn't.

I would not say that now we have a problem with shipyards.

Yeah... an industry in pain...

Product substitution takes time and effort, but wasn't it you whining about paying foreign shipyards to make products for Russia... well WTF is the difference between that and assembling ships in Russia that are totally made of foreign components?

Direct money comparisons is a very difficult thing to do with Russia, due to mainly the incorrect discrepancy between the ruble, and the dollar amount that is used for direct comparisons, with it being undervalued by 60 percent of what it should be.

So it does not prove your point so you want it ignored...

Britain built two new aircraft carriers, with electric propulsion, and destroyers as well. You can let me know when Russian shipbuilding industry can or has done the same.

They don't have enough ships to support their carriers and can only operate with friendly nations supplying support ships to operate properly... they wanted 12 destroyers and could only afford 6 of which one is currently operational. Their destroyers have Corvette level air defence missiles... and their anti ship missiles are not hugely different from the same weapon that was in use when they fought in the Falklands War in 1982.

How is struggling to keep up a good thing? You are seriously trying to say that Russians aren't having enormous problems with lead ship construction and induction? How long did it take for Severodvinsk and Adm. Gorshkov to enter service? What about their serial ships?

Brand new multirole ships with all brand new sensors and weapon systems that are not inferior to any other country on the planet... and they are taking the time to get them right... there is no struggling involved.

And again, Zumwalt, three ships built and in trials, how many 17k ton surface combatants have been built in the Russian Federation?

Zumwalt was the future of ships... with a cost effective gun with the range and accuracy of missiles for the price of artillery shells... whose rounds cost more than Russian 5,000km range cruise missiles each...

Three ships that are useless and cannot be fixed... they wanted to make hundreds... and if their airforce **** up is anything to go by they will be building new build current cruisers and destroyers for about three times the price they made the originals for...

Ford class, yet again, America struggles with worlds largest supercarrier with first in the world systems for launch and retrieval of aircraft based on electromagnetic systems

Except the Chinese have probably already beaten them to that...

and Russia has only just started serial acceptance of Gorshkov class frigate and Yasen-M SSGN.

It has MiG-31K units armed with Kinzhal hypersonic anti carrier missiles... Russia is safe from the navies of HATO. In 10-20 years they will need an expanded navy with destroyers and cruisers and CVNs to protect their shipping around the world because no other country will help, but that is fine.

F-35 is somewhere around 700 constructed, how many Su-57s?

The F-35s the British are using cost 90K pounds per hour... I would say buy as many F-35s as you can't afford.... it will finish things faster...

Oh so no complaints then it is fine? No personal imitative could ever possibly be expected for you. If you don't think "sheboon" is an insult, plus a reference to fried chicken as an degrading insult towards African-Americans, then I highly suggest you learn what the word is meant as and maybe not have your head in the sand.

Never been to the US and have no interest in going there. If no one is offended then what is the problem you want me to deal with?

How the **** can fried chicken be a degrading insult to any ethnic group, that is just stupid.... that perhaps explains the problem is more with you than with me.

I mean seriously, you think it is acceptable for a thread discussing Russian space program, something worth having a dignified and presentable conversation over, should have posts with racial slurs and degrading racial minorities in it?

I spend most of my time on that thread deleting stuff PD puts in his personal vendetta against Rogozin... if nobody cares about a comment then why should I... especially if I don't understand it.

I am white, but I am not a racist. Good to know you are.

Racist does not mean today what it used to mean... the best way to describe it is anti semitism... anti semiticism used to mean someone who hates jews, but these days it means someone the jews hate.

I have worked on building sites where maori and islanders are working together where the islanders call the maori the n word and the maori call the islanders coconuts... they are not offended because it is not meant to be offensive when they say it, but if you went on site and said it, you would be in trouble from everyone.

Racism isn't fixed, it changes by who says it and to whom.

You say you are white... I can believe that... you say you are not racist... how can I believe that... because it is not for you to judge yourself one way or the other.

You are failing to moderate this forum. Your job is indeed not to heal the sick or such, it is to moderate this forum entrusted to your care.

I have modified the rules quite a lot but please point to me the rule against racism, or sexism for that matter... I have not removed any rules on such subjects, so if they were there they should still be there.

Being racist is not against the rules, as is being Muslim or Australian or Christian or just being uninformed.

And yes, racism exists, and it doesn't belong in this forum, your job is to make sure that it isn't present here and you have failed.

Racism is part of this world and it is here to stay and there is nothing anyone can do about it...

First time you have seen it? It has been up since Oct 6, you even posted in the same page as it.

I don't read every single post.... I am doing this for free... how much time per day do you expect me to dedicate to this forum?

As for the rest of your paragraph, it is disgusting that you think it is acceptable behavior for forum administrator to be using such language so casually, I don't care how you think western world is treating Russians, it is simply unacceptable behavior to use such words at your position on this forum. It is disgusting. For God's sake, you have PAID adverts on this site, what would sponsors think if they found out?

Hahahaha... yes.... I am the bad guy for using words... American cops shoot black people every day and get a free pass, but I am the one really hurting minorities and non whites by using a word on the internet.

Have you not heard the western phrase... sticks and stones?

Americas sticks and stones are B-52s and drone strikes, and sanctions that cause crippling hardship to millions of people... not just food but also medication they block... but I am the problem... right.

The fact of the matter is that Russian shipbuilding has severe problems, yes it is growing at excellent rate, but nonetheless it is hindered even at it's current level.

English really isn't your first language... how can you say growing at an excellent rate in one part of a sentence and talk about hindered in the same sentence?

For every growth there are limits... bacteria with warmth and food will double in number every half hour or so, but despite statistics suggesting within a few years they will constitute a significant portion of the planets mass... the rapid expansion normally stops when they reach the edge of the petris dish and run out of food.

The Russian shipbuilding industry should be working on foreign material substitution than max production rates because they are never going to be the worlds biggest producer and supplier of ships to the world...

You claim these countries have had worse accidents and deaths in their naval service, show me the proof, what numbers in what timeframe?

I said they have problems too. You are the one wanting to turn it into a dick measuring contest.

Japan has no operational fixed wing carrier, neither does Russia. Britain has two, and USA has 11 supercarrier groups as well as 9 or so amphib. assault vessels capable of operating fixed wing VTOL aircraft.

Britain and America are failing colonial powers that need carriers and force to murder people and make them conform.

What way does Zumwalt concede to Gorshkov? Gorshkov does get the more advanced Zircon but it is not in service, and Americans are not stupid in any way, do you you think them incapable of producing a VLS based hypersonic missile at some point in time?

It is operational and its weapons and systems are tested and working, and yes, currently and in the foreseeable future they can't make hypersonic manouvering anti ship missiles... stupidity... not so much... more blind greed.

LCS disasters? In what way? Inform me. Show me your reasoning, just because you call them disasters doesn't magically make them so. You are most certainly not God.

They are retiring them already and buying conventional frigates from Italy... something about their transmissions having serious problems limiting speed to 12 knots or something... and they are not really very well designed for anything... their crew size is too small so they can't maintain them in service properly either...

LMFAO, what's next? Did they fake the moon landing as well? Are there hundreds of deaths on American naval vessels now as well?

Why would I trust the Americans? They stopped counting how many foreigners get killed in the wars they start and hire mercs to conceal the number of friendlies they lose in conflicts so they can keep fighting long after any reason has passed if there ever was one.

It must be impossible to comprehend to you the fact that Americans simply have a better safety record on their vessels than Russia, I suggest you learn to digest this, reality is not merciful to those who delude themselves to the obvious.

Americans use accountants and lawyers instead of generals... they cannot be trusted.

Any other country ran Guantanimo and the various CIA rendition sights around the world and it would be a war crime, but the US gets a free pass, and puts the whistleblowers in jail, how can I discuss anything with someone who does not know right from wrong.

Especially one that gets a hard on over dead Russian shipyard workers.

So again, provide your own reasoning and facts/numbers as to why you think Russia has a better safety record than the USA.

Wouldn't trust their numbers if I had them.

Do I need to remind you that American subs operate in the Artic, participating in ICEX exercises all the time?

The failed tests were cold water at depth... they likely stay shallow.

American subs can't go very deep anyway.

Point to me three 17k tonne or so surface combatants inducted in Russian Federation service with being built in the Russian Federation.

Two 40K helicopter carriers...

Russia does not identify as Asian, 80 percent of it's population lives in the western part of Russia, exactly in Eastern Europe.

They also identified as Soviet for a while too... a change is as good as a holiday.

Customers of Asian shipyards showed up magically and forked over money for them demanding they build ships for them? They worked hard for their results, you have no right to strip them of their accomplishments.

They make ships dude... get over yourself.

LMFAO, do I need to pull up the quotes for you? People here were going on with a straight face that Russia had displaced S.Korea or Japan. It's not true, and now that the truth is undeniable you resort to child-like responses?

Quote my post where I say Russia has displaced anyone except the Ukraine.... I don't give a **** about S Korea or Japan or Chinas shipbuilding industry... really I could care less... what is driving Russia and China is the realisation that being independent from the west is the only future they have, and for that they need navies and civilian ships and a maritime fleet.

So only comparison for Russia should now be poorest country in Europe headed by morons who took power supported by right wing fascists?

That is not fair.. the Ukraine was being held back by evil Russia and evil Putin and those right wing Fascists were hand picked by Americans no less to lead the country to a bright future with the EU and HATO and the US...

You feel that they are so terrible and awful, why compare Russia to them then? Russia should shoot for the top, unless you think you aren't capable.

Nothing to do with me. The US is controlling the situation by pulling the strings on their puppets in Kiev, trying their best to get Putin and Russia tangled in the strings but it does not seem to be working.... ahh well.... only broke one country there and not anyone that funds my election, so why care about the damage done...

You want to know scale of difference? Russia's largest and most capable shipyard has just two goliath cranes, South Korea's largest shipyard has ELEVEN.

Ahh wow... I take everything back.... all my comments of the huge expansion of Russian shipyards... I take it all back because they simply don't have enough cranes to count as having made any progress at all... in fact they should just shoot all their managers like PD has been suggesting over delays to military ship production and testing and just start from scratch instead of building and developing and improving everything in a careful planned and managed way... I mean obviously they have 12 big cranes appear out of thin air or they need to scrap everything and just forget about it...

It needs to instantly happen or it will never ever happen.... cause that is how things work...

To be honest GarryB, I think it is more that you are not really capable of holding an actual conversation and discussion using actual facts, logic, comparisons, and reason, at least that is what you have shown me with your replies.

This is the talking bollocks section so it works here...

The vast majority of ships being built are civil or commercial contracts but if any of these countries decide to concentrate on military shipbuilding nobody will even come close to the number of ships and subs they would be able to churn out.

Except of those three countries only China has the finances to actually pay for so many military vessels itself... and what sort of quality are SK and Japanese military ships... how much domestic technology would they have?

If you look at the rapid rate all these navies were able to modernize over a very short period in terms of shipbuilding it should be pretty clear. In the Cold War period much of the South Korean and Japanese Navies were decked out in second hand US ships and subs and the Chinese basically had an brown water navy with a huge number of obsolete Romeo class submarines. This was the case through much of the Cold War.

When the Cold War "ended" most of the NATO navies and Russia went into a downsizing spiral with Greece and Turkey the only exception as they benefited greatly. Russia was the hardest hit by far and even lost a number of modern ships - mostly through neglect.

Not so in the Far East though. Even countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam and Indonesia had a huge naval "revamp" and are equipped with very modern and capable naval vessels. Today China has a huge blue water navy and it is still expanding at a rapid rate. Much the same goes for South Korea and Japan - each with aircraft carriers building or planned for the near future.

But what does that actually mean other than the end of the cold war led to a downturn in customers for ships for a while so those countries spent money in their own shipyards as a subsidy to give them work to keep them going during a lean time...

Except of those three countries only China has the finances to actually pay for so many military vessels itself... and what sort of quality are SK and Japanese military ships... how much domestic technology would they have?

Seriously?!

South Korea has developed and expanded it's navy from a coastal one to a blue water navy in little over a decade! Their future plans even include an aircraft carrier by 2030. Though much of their ships and subs are based on US and German tech - much of the electronics and weapons are home bred. They just tested a SLBM - the first non nuclear country to do do so.

Japan has an even larger an more capable navy and is still expanding at a rapid rate and it includes aircraft carriers. Japan has around 40 very modern destroyers in service. The UK has 6. They are leaders in SSK development. Like South Korea they developed US tech as the basis for their naval ships but use mostly their own electronics and weapon systems.

Both these nations have shipbuilding technology and skills second to none - dating back many decades!

But what does that actually mean other than the end of the cold war led to a downturn in customers for ships for a while so those countries spent money in their own shipyards as a subsidy to give them work to keep them going during a lean time...

As I've mentioned before - the end of the Cold War and the downturn meant that these countries invested heavily into expanding their naval capabilities. Perhaps they subsidized but the long term effect was job security and economic growth. Unfortunately the opposite was true in many other Western countries.

South Korea has developed and expanded it's navy from a coastal one to a blue water navy in little over a decade!

Yes, South Korea and Japan have the most up to date naval technology... how gracious they are to allow the US and Australia and India join them in a coalition against China, because obviously they are each world naval powers that need no components or technology or weapons from any other country because obviously they are the best...

Funny the west is so afraid of Russia because Russia can't even make civilian ships on their own... all foreign parts you see...

Though much of their ships and subs are based on US and German tech - much of the electronics and weapons are home bred.

So what you are saying is that they don't have ships or subs... they make some parts for them...

Like South Korea they developed US tech as the basis for their naval ships but use mostly their own electronics and weapon systems.

Japan basically takes US equipment and remakes it with more electronics and rather more expensive... they are the same as the Chinese but the opposite in their approach... which is to say they produce rather than design in terms of Naval weapons systems.

As I've mentioned before - the end of the Cold War and the downturn meant that these countries invested heavily into expanding their naval capabilities. Perhaps they subsidized but the long term effect was job security and economic growth.

They reversed the swords into ploughshares concept to renew their military when there were no civilian orders... very sensible to be honest... keeps the shipyards working and renews the military power of the country... I am sure the British probably wish they did that themselves... but sensible government does not make the 1% rich even richer....

lyle6 wrote:
That's cute but tonnages don't matter much these days. In the past a navy's firepower was directly linked to the displacement of its ships - i.e. only the tens of thousands of tons monsters could deploy the top-shelf armaments like the 18 in. gun or fighter jet squadrons. Today even a corvette can carry a CBG busting salvo of hypersonic missiles in its tiny frame.

These nations are chasing what is a largely obsolete paradigm when first rate navies have since moved on.

Yes hypersonic missiles are a game changer but you still need a blue water navy to protect your trade routes and to project power. You also need air power to protect your naval assets - either land based or carrier based. These are diplomatic tools - just like strategic bombers. Corvettes can't do that no matter how well they are armed.

In response Russia turned the blue water domain into an extension of the littorals - when even short-legged corvettes can attack blue water ships from previously unassailable ranges you know you are in deep trouble.

Not quite. Russian corvettes are very capable and dangerous ships but they are extremely limited when it comes to power projection and sea keeping capability. They can never replace a cruiser or destroyers - as you said - they just don't have the legs.

GarryB wrote:
Yes, South Korea and Japan have the most up to date naval technology... how gracious they are to allow the US and Australia and India join them in a coalition against China, because obviously they are each world naval powers that need no components or technology or weapons from any other country because obviously they are the best...

Funny the west is so afraid of Russia because Russia can't even make civilian ships on their own... all foreign parts you see...  

One should be careful not to underestimate the enemy's capability. Ask the Germans what happened when they took on the Soviets during WWII!
If you think the South Koreans and the Japanese have floating junk you should think again!

As far as Geo-politics go - China and Russia are the enemy. Nothing's going to change that any time soon. In fact it's a good thing. It restores the balance that was once lost with the so-called "Peace Dividend" at the end of the Cold War that lasted like a year or two!

Though much of their ships and subs are based on US and German tech - much of the electronics and weapons are home bred.

So what you are saying is that they don't have ships or subs... they make some parts for them...

"Their ships and subs are based on US and German tech" automatically implies that they build ships and subs that are based on those technologies. Pretty clear I think?

Hint: This is not a Arleigh Burke class destroyer

Yes hypersonic missiles are a game changer but you still need a blue water navy to protect your trade routes and to project power. You also need air power to protect your naval assets - either land based or carrier based. These are diplomatic tools - just like strategic bombers. Corvettes can't do that no matter how well they are armed.

Very true, but when you are rebuilding your fleet it is good to go for standardisation of weapons and sensors and equipment and to start with the smallest and most numerous vessels first... in the past the Soviets tended to custom design each ship to a role and have specific armament for each type of ship, but they have gotten to the point where in terms of electronics and weapons and sensors even their smallest vessels will be multirole which can be determined when the UKSK launch tubes are loaded... individually their Corvettes would be vulnerable to mass attack, but working together they can become quite a strong force... even more so when MiG-31Ks are operating with them carrying Kinzhal missiles too.

The point is that they are maintaining their only carrier and have bought new aircraft for it quite recently, and they are clearly deciding on upgrades for the largest ships... Kirovs, Slavas, and Udaloys while they produce corvettes and frigates the likes of which they have never had before... it is a work in progress but such things can't happen over night... it just takes time and planning and lots of other technologies to fall into place too.

Not quite. Russian corvettes are very capable and dangerous ships but they are extremely limited when it comes to power projection and sea keeping capability. They can never replace a cruiser or destroyers - as you said - they just don't have the legs.

They are not going for an all corvette fleet... they are now able to start withdrawing some of their old short range boats and replace them with very capable modern multirole ones... their new frigates are actually very similar to the replacements for the LCS ships the US are buying from Italy... and further progress on larger ships is evident... they are hardly going to want 40K ton helicopter carriers with only corvettes and frigates and upgraded cruisers to support them... but it all takes time and as shipyards get upgrades... which they all seem to be going through, then the large run orders will be given... which will be their first chance to show how quickly they can build ships... one offs and testing new designs has never been a good indication of the performance of how a shipyard works in any country on the planet.

Ask the Germans what happened when they took on the Soviets during WWII!

They bottled them up as best they could and minimised their effect for most of the war.

If you think the South Koreans and the Japanese have floating junk you should think again!

Not saying they are floating junk, I am saying the useful bits are foreign...

The new UK destroyers are not that great and one of the reasons they are not that great is because their air defence systems are less impressive than Redut fitted to Russian Corvettes. At destroyer size the Russian redut system should include the 250km and 400km range model S-400 missiles as well as the 150km range and 60km range 9M96 and the 15km range 9M100s with four missiles to a tube. In comparison the UK destroyers can have 30km and 120km range Asters... and enormous step up from Sea Cat and Sea Wolf, but if they want to operate carriers then they should be looking at AEGIS class cruisers with SM-2 missiles at the very least.

Hint: This is not a Arleigh Burke class destroyer

American deck gun, Phalanx... and vertical launch bins.... American by any chance?

Why is it OK to call China out for copying when these countries get a free pass?

I don't care that they don't have their own weapon systems... but I wonder why they think they need such systems now.... is it so they are more useful cannon fodder for use against Russia and China?

I suspect as much, which means they could have spent their money rather better... Russia and China are spending big money to create trade routes on land and via sea and air to boost trade between Asia and the EU... and these asian countries that could benefit from that trade transport saver suddenly are joining the US and Australia and India to save the Uighurs from oppression from China... a bit convenient really... and what about oppression in the US?

What about the oppression of the natives of Guam or the Marshall Islands or Deigo Garcia... what about their rights?

lyle6 wrote:
Ships with inadequate weapons and protection suites won't do for it either. A blue water fleet is important, yes, but they are putting the cart before the horse.

Yes they would certainly need to adapt to new developments like the hypersonic missiles to stay relevant - and I'm sure they are frantically working on possible solutions.

Why is it OK to call China out for copying when these countries get a free pass?

It's simple. China is the enemy. Japan and South Korea are vassal states - you won't call your "friends" bad names.
Most Asian countries are well known for their copying skills and it's not a bad thing. It saves a shitload of money on R&D.