Talking bollocks thread #4

The Chinese Navy uses licensed European diesel engines. Their surface ships use French SEMT Pielstick engines, and their submarines use German MTU diesel engines. When China tried to export their diesel submarines to Thailand, the Germans did not want competition for their own submarines in the deal, and forbade the Chinese from using German diesel engines in submarines exported to Thailand.

In order to quickly ramp up their navy the Chinese had to cut a lot of corners and using licensed European naval diesel engines was one of those corners.

The Project 20380 corvette is about as well armed as the average Western frigate. And the Project 22350 frigate is about as well armed as the average Western destroyer. And that is if you use the Uran missile for anti-shipping. If you use the Kalibr, Oniks, and Zircon, then they outclass any Western ship in anti-shipping capability. It is not like the Russians spent this time doing nothing. They had a lot of issues fixing the electronics in the frigates, and the corvettes had much the same issues when they changed the radar from the Furke to the Zaslon. The M90FR and M70FRU gas turbine engines had to be developed and put into production.

The Russians have 8 Project 20380/20385 corvettes in various stages of construction with 2 in trials. That is basically the same amount they have in service right now. And they have 5 Project 22350 frigates in construction with 1 in trials. Which is like triple the amount they have in service. Once the Amur shipyard finishes construction of the corvettes they will likely be switched to production of frigates. Severnaya Verf will likely start producing Project 22350M destroyers. In one decade they will likely have replaced all their high end ships with modern variants.

Western sanctions in 2014 delayed the modernization of the Russian surface navy fleet for like a decade. But right now all components have been replaced and ship production has resumed. There will be hiccups but not to the same degree as in the past.

Focusing even more on production of nuclear submarines would solve nothing. Sevmash production is maxed out. You could buy several frigates for the price of a single nuclear attack submarine, let alone corvettes.

A Project 22350 frigate costs over 18 billion rubles, and a Project 885M attack submarine costs over 47 billion rubles. A Project 20380 corvette costs over 10 billion rubles.

The nuclear submarines cannot do escort of merchant ships like the surface ships can do. Russia will need its own merchant marine and navy to escort it so they can do trade with India, Southeast Asia, Africa, and Latin America. The only reasonable way to increase production of nuclear attack submarines would be to stop production of all Borei and derivatives to focus on attack submarines. Both the SSBNs and the Poseidon carriers. What will happen is that quite likely once the current order for Borei Bulava and Poseidon carriers is finished, they will focus on the Laika attack submarine like I said.

Isos, the moment a major accident happens on a Chinese ship, you inform me - and until then, your R&D stories won't mean much to me. You cannot, for example, build and put into service all 25 Type-052D destroyers or 30 Type-054A frigates if they are not platforms tested to the smallest detail. What are you writing about, man? I don't see the built Chinese bridges and buildings collapsing or their ships sinking. Maybe they believe in something like that in the West, and I'm not one of those people.

They have laid down and currently building  5 Gorshkov, 13 Karakurt, 5 Steregoushchy, 4 Gremyashy, 2 Buyan-M  2 Ivian Gren landing ships and 1 Derkyi as well as upgrading the Kirov battlecruiser and the Udaloys.

They also have 2 helicopter carriers under construction.

For the subs they are currently building 4 borei, 5 Yasen M, 2 kilo (with additional 6 to be ordered) and 4 Lada.  Diesel subs are way more silent than nuks, they are very dangerous for any ship coming to close to shores. They already launched 3 Yasen and 7 Borei.

They also have 2 Poseidon carrier submarine in construction with one already in service.

It's not nothing. That a huge plan to modernize their forces. What country can face all of this ? They will get all of this before 2030.

You over estimate US power which is the main enemy. They only have around 50 subs and all are nuclear expensive ones and 70 Arleigh Burke + 17 Tico that will be removed from service very soon.

То Аlamo...

Bro, greetings to you.
I'm more nervous about the construction of 885M submarines than the SMO..

That's the problem. They don't let any bad info leak. You can't find any article about their accidents or availability rates.

Chinese ships rarely spend time far away from chinese shores. It's not like they are that well tested.

OK Isos, OK, I know all that you wrote, but laying the keels is one thing, and the duration of the construction of a certain ship is quite another...
You forgot to write that a contract was signed at "Army-2020" for two more project 22350 frigates for which the keels have STILL not been laid.

For example;
1. Strogiy corvette (project 20380); in construction since 20.02.2015 or more than 8 years,
2. Merkuriy corvette (project 20380); keel for the ship was laid down on 20.02.2015; Sea trials, barely,
3. Rezkiy corvette (project 20380); keel for the ship was laid down on 01.07.2016; Sea trials..
4. Prvoroniy corvette (project 20385); laid down on 25.07.2013; severe fire damage during construction...

I will not write about the project 22350 frigates because it is a waste of time, and that project is an embarrassment to the Russian state because the Russians waited for 23 years (from 1991 to 2014) even though all indications were that Ukroshitstan had a hostile attitude towards Russia. Then comes the "slap" in 2014 and the interruption of deliveries of gas turbines from Ukroshitstan.

The two landing ships of project 11711 will also be delayed, as well as many other projects.

My ONLY concern is the Project 885M submarines. For Sevmash, it is clear that it has the capacity and the first 3 submarines of project 885M were built much shorter than the submarine that is next in the pipeline, i.e. K-564 "Arkhangelsk". The submarine "Kazan" was under construction for 7 years and 8 months and was launched. The submarine "Novosibirsk" was under construction for 6 years and 5 months and was launched, while "Krasnoyarsk" was under construction for exactly 7 years.
And while the Russians farted on the media, as I quote, the statements "we are working to reduce the time period of construction", it turns out that the exact opposite is happening. It would not be good if it were like the Severodvinsk submarine.

Priority was Borei and they build 7 of them quickly. Their construction time was 6 years which is very good for a ship  almost 1.5 time bigger and longer than a Yasen.

If they want Yasens so much they can achieve a 4 years construction time. But you know its not cold war anymore, there is no need to spend 40% of your GDP in useless military hardware because at the end, if you think, such subs would be used only against a country that could start a nuclear exchange so probability of use is close to 0.

Stuff like S-400, pantsir, Mig-35 are way more important

Isos, we don't live in the dark ages anymore and a major shipwreck isn't something that can be easily hidden.

China's coast is surely under daily surveillance by American military satellites. Any fire or explosion would be quickly detected. Malfunctions are something else and the Russians also have such parodies, such as the crash of the first serial Su-57 or the first flight prototype of the Il-112.

The reality is that the Russians have far greater problems introducing new weapon platforms than the Chinese do. On the other hand, this also applies to the USA, which is slowly running out of Ticonderoga cruisers and a replacement for them is not yet in sight, while the Arleigh Burke destroyer platform, which was designed in the eighties, is also being produced.
And if you think that the Arleigh Burke class destroyer is a technological marvel (designed in the eighties) compared to the Type-052D or Type-055, I think exactly the opposite.

For submarines in general, it remains to be proven in a future conflict whether they really have a huge advantage over surface warships or whether that is just a myth. The American submarine fleet is a danger to China, but the Chinese surface fleet can also (I'm convinced) tear apart the US Navy, what with surface ships and submarines and what with DF missiles.

And I already wrote that earlier, that is, Sevmash has the capacity and qualified workforce, as well as subcontractors, to implement the construction of both projects without delay.
And if the construction of the surface fleet is proven to be slow and miserable, then it is better to divert the money to Sevmash. I don't give a **** about corvettes and frigates, because after "Moscow" I'm not interested in a fleet of surface warships at all. But i am nobody and my opinion is irelevant. Perhaps it would be best to build only projects 20380 and 20385 and postpone the frigates for some future decades. Their shipbuilding is completely incompetent when it comes to the surface fleet and they are just wasting time. All the shipyards and a good part of the subcontractors are mostly useless except for Sevmash, Admirality, Baltic (not included in military shipbuilding), to some extent Yantar, Amur, and Zelenodolsk.

There is no order.

Yeah but you know Ruble is not a magical money... those subs don't cost 20 million. There are budget priorities, and again Boreis were the priority. Deal with it. Thry are way more important than Yasen since they keep all the US forces calm, very calm.

Chinese navy is still weaker than US navy by a great margin.

If we forget the other branches, Air forces and coastal missiles, the chinese will be at disadvantages against US carrier aviation that can spot ships way sooner than China and they have way better subs that can sneak around and send to the bottom chinese ships.

They could inflict damages and sink ships but they would loose.

The further you go from chinese shores the greater this disadvantage is. And Chinese maritime interests are for the most far away, be it fishing or commercial routes.

For Isos

The US has far more nuclear submarines that have a far higher underwater cruising speed, a greater amount of weapons and a greater depth of deployment. Only the practice of war can prove America's advantage underwater.
Aircraft carriers ?
In 2023, I consider those ships completely obsolete, and only a serious conflict could support this opinion of mine.
But you're right, because aircraft carriers are excellent when you strike countries that you gave sanctions for several years before the strike, which was the American case with Iraq, Serbia, etc.
A typical Western misconception about the superpower of floating steel coffins over 300 meters long. And how do you imagine that KC-135 or KC-46 tankers would fly carefree to refuel American F-18s and F-35Cs 700 to 800 km from the Chinese coast ?
Well, it's not Serbia or Iraq, the Chinese would tear them apart with long-range DF missiles. In addition to the surface fleet, the Chinese simultaneously worked on long-range DF missiles while the fleet was much smaller. You forget that American warships don't even have high-quality anti-ship missiles, while everything American with the prefix ANTI is of debatable performance, that is, anti-missile or anti-aircraft.
Unlike some Russian weapons systems that could be attributed to shortcomings, I have NO doubt that the MYTH of the "quality" of American weapons is a far greater myth than the weapons of other countries.


The USA is a country that does not have ONE pure military victory in its history of warfare, everything from the two atomic bombs to "defeat" Japan until today.
I maintain that the US is completely incapable of any conventional conflict with China, and you think what you want.
The Chinese keep quiet and work, they don't bark or growl...

We are talking about chinese vs US navies. Why bring those stories of 3rd world countries ? No poiny.

Modern warfare is about software, electronics and missiles. Something created by the US and where the US are still a total leader.

US new Arleigh Burke are updated. If their AEGIS is outdated and useless, then those Chinese frigates are just shitty since they use radar designed by the soviets for the Sovremmeny. The Chinese destroyers are just using the same tech that the US are using since 20 years. I don't see how they could be better than the US ones.

The DF missiles exists and are a threat but hitting a target 2000km away isn't that easy. They still have to prove it works. As far as we know theey never tested it against such targets, only tests were against targets in the desert.

To Isos

No, the modern conflict is not about everything you mentioned, because if it was easy to break the spirit of the Ukroshitstans, for example, then they would fall already after a few dozen cruise missile strikes. Ask the Vietnamese...
The Chinese on Type-052D and Type-055 use AESA Type-346 radars (346A on Type-052D) and Type-346b on Type-055.
Those radars have no points of contact with the radars of the Soviet warships of Project 956 Sarych or some other Soviet/Russian ships.
I prefer the Chinese Type-052D and Type-055 over the American cruisers (which will no longer exist in a few years) and destroyers...
And yes, I am sure that it is easier to strike with a DF missile than to approach the Chinese coast at less than 1000 km with aircraft carriers, that is, from a distance from which deck aviation could be used. If you are impressed by the Arleigh Burke destroyers, I write to you again that I am not and I already consider them a relic of the past. I wrote what I think about aircraft carriers.

You mix everything. Afghan, Vietnam or Ukro war are not the type of conflict a US/China war would be.

It's about sea dominance. None of them want to grab lands to the other.

It's all about dominating the economical routes and imposing its companies and products.

For this US are better suited with better subs, a well mastered carrier aviation and bases all over the world as well as mastering regime change in 3rd countries where those routes have to go.

Just look what they did in Sudan last week. Russian base there won't happen now.

Like it or not they are quite powerfull and dangerous. And a chinese alternative for world dominance isn't any better. When you see how they locked their population during Covid or how they threat their workers it's nothing better than the US. That's why i like multipolar world.

I am not interfering in anything, but I am writing to you that I am convinced that the average Chinese cares far more about his immediate environment than a US citizen. Technology has a great impact, but not a decisive one, if there is already a conflict of approximately equal forces. Chinese capacities are huge.
Let go of the story about the aircraft carriers because the US is coming before a country that has quite a number of modern weapons of all kinds.
China is not Sudan
No domination or hegemony of ANY country is NOT GOOD, but I think that FOUR FIFTH of the world's population can no longer think of the USA.
And finally Mr. ISOS, I think the world has had enough of WESTERN domination. So much from me.. Since the WORLD always had to get used to Western domination, it is time for some future generations to feel someone else's rule, which will not last forever because nothing lasts forever.

Or it's time that no one rules anymore. Chinese are worse than US in that regard.

Isos, Serbia and the city of Belgrade were attacked by Germany 3 times in the 20th century alone; WW1 (occupied), WW2 (occupied), and in 1999.
The first intervention of the German army after WW2 was in aggression against Serbia.
My opinion is that you are right that it would be best for everything on the planet to be like in paradise and for everyone to get along, but you yourself know that this does not happen.
The Anglo-Saxons must fall.

Do any of the Russians know if there will be tanks in Moscow for Victory Day because I don't see them in the links from the streets of Moscow ?
No BMP-3 or Kurganets-25, 2S19, 2S35, T-14, T-72B3/80BVM/90M.

https://www.youtube.com/live/fcPk8Fh_dEM?feature=share

Podlodka77 wrote:Do any of the Russians know if there will be tanks in Moscow for Victory Day because I don't see them in the links from the streets of Moscow ?
No BMP-3 or Kurganets-25, 2S19, 2S35, T-14, T-72B3/80BVM/90M.

https://www.youtube.com/live/fcPk8Fh_dEM?feature=share

No fraid not, Russia is down to a few BT-7 and T-35s. The aviation compenent is just as sad only a few I-153s. Haven't you seen CNN and learned to trust Ukrainian media? Seriously though, I thinknwe'll see at keast something of a vehicle column.

ucmvulcan wrote:

Podlodka77 wrote:Do any of the Russians know if there will be tanks in Moscow for Victory Day because I don't see them in the links from the streets of Moscow ?
No BMP-3 or Kurganets-25, 2S19, 2S35, T-14, T-72B3/80BVM/90M.

https://www.youtube.com/live/fcPk8Fh_dEM?feature=share

No fraid not, Russia is down to a few BT-7 and T-35s.  The aviation compenent is just as sad only a few I-153s.  Haven't you seen CNN and learned to trust Ukrainian media? Seriously though, I thinknwe'll see at keast something of a vehicle column.

And here's a clip from Euronews. Looks like the tracked vehicles are on truck beds because even with special treads tracked vehicles tear up paved roads so we will probably be seeing at least some tracked vehicles:

https://www.euronews.com/video/2023/04/28/watch-russians-rehearse-for-moscows-annual-victory-parade

To Ucmvulcan....

Man, I've seen a few links where there are no BMPs, BMDs, self-propelled howitzers, and no tanks.
I didn't write that Russia "ran out of tanks", but I'm just asking if there will be any. Tanks were at every military parade from 2007 to 2022.
The only one who can use propaganda is the West, which will immediately say that Russia "has run out of tanks and self-propelled howitzers" if they are not there for Victory Day.

Podlodka77 wrote:To Ucmvulcan....

Man, I've seen a few links where there are no BMPs, BMDs, self-propelled howitzers, and no tanks.
I didn't write that Russia "ran out of tanks", but I'm just asking if there will be any. Tanks were at every military parade from 2007 to 2022.
The only one who can use propaganda is the West, which will immediately say that Russia "has run out of tanks and self-propelled howitzers" if they are not there for Victory Day.

I never said you were pushing that narrative, but that because the west would try that narrative you will be seing at least a couple T-90s. I just think they are probably on truck beds because tracked vehicles tend to be very destructive to paved roads. We'll know for sure when they do their dress rehearsal this week but we'll see the usual assortment of modern tanks, apvs, and self propelled artillery. Of course we'll also see the concern trolls who will say Putin deprives combat troops of heavy equipment to pull off selfish propaganda show.