Talking bollocks thread #4

sepheronx wrote:we already have the likes of Arrow, RTN, Walter and a few others to spread nonsense and to stir trouble, we don't need more.

Exactly, But Re-heating issues such as the lack of hangars for RusAF, blind acceptance of NATO narrative, and parroting general NATO talking points from a dormant account that conveniently got Reanimated Raises a lot of suspicions.

Everytime Russia hammers NATO in Ukraine, this time, the opening of the Kharkov front, these NATO Trolls are quick to spread misinformation to try to distract people and downplay Russia's achievements in the entire cyberspace front whether its on Twitter, Telegram, Youtube, and forums like RussiaDefence. People should keep their vigilance and avoid falling for the cheap tricks from these Troll Freaks

The financial times is not a good source and has shat on Russia and China for quite some time now so their sources and stories are not to be believed.

China will want a good deal.

Gazprom is a big company and it can fund alternative options... China wants energy and Russia has energy... they will come to an agreement eventually.

But first lets find out if there is any truth at all in this story which I doubt.

China just decided not to bother going to the BS western farce in Switzerland... sounds like not just a good show of common sense but also a show of support for Russia too.

It makes sense for the west to want to sew division and chaos again, because chaos and war and death is their thing.

The idea that you can force the seller to sell at a price that they don't like is ridiculous.

You get a low contract the pipe stays underutilized. Gazprom just sells the rest to China as LNG at spot market prices.

Gazprom can turn the gas valve off. China can't turn its industry off.

Well that was the gamble the EU made when it thought no one else needs as much gas supply as Europe does so they can hold Russia to ransom because there is no way they will find another customer.

The amusing thing is that the EU didn't realise Russia was selling them cheap energy so they could sell in volume rather than make peak profit based on high margin low volume sales.

This means that Russia will likely accept cheaper (than market value) terms of sales for gas to China simply because they want China to buy large volumes of gas so China benefits from cheap energy and Gazprom gets a reliable customer happy with very long term contracts... which are rather better for planning and management and also for funding exploration for new sources when the current sources are used up.

This way China gets cheap secure sources of energy so they can build on their growth and development plans with an energy source that wont be used as a weapon to dictate terms for their economic or political relationship like the west does.

But of course the west is fucked up so any glitch or problem and they project themselves onto both parties and treat Russia and China like they are as evil and money grabbing as they are.

Just because any given article may have inaccurate data doesn't mean it's comepletely wrong. If new Su-34 batches were impressive, they would include the number of planes; but since they don't, it means they r small & in any case not bigger or equal to cover their losses.

If they get some facts wrong how can you trust anything they say... if they are happy to lie about one thing to make Russia look bad then why wouldn't they lie about everything... which makes me wonder why you think we should put up with their big lies in the hope that their little lies that can't be confirmed might be true?

All through the cold war the way western logic worked was that if it looked bad for the Soviets it was probably true, while if it looked good for the Soviets it was probably a lie and therefore Soviet Propaganda. A truly ignorant piece of logic from every angle.

Especially when the stuff that looked bad for the Soviets was often western propaganda made up to make them look bad.

yes, it is possible the total Su-34 lost since feb-2022 is arround 25 included combat losses and accidents, 15 in 2022 and 3-5 every year in 2023 and 2024

An important part of critical thinking is to think about the source and their focus, and in this case the source is not interested in the truth or logic... they are interested in putting Russia (the enemy whose economy they want to destroy and create conditions for a dirty civil war to take shape) down and boosting the flagging spirits of their nazi force in Kiev.

the number of Su-34 handed over is 8 in 2021, 10 in 2022 and probably at least 12 in 2023, total , about 30, after the end of first phase 2010-2020 of 32+92+2 = 126

So 126 over ten years and then 8 + 10 + 12 over the last three years while they have been at war with HATO and Ukraine... so an average of 12 per year for ten years and then when a war starts they average 10 per year... doesn't sound like they have lost large numbers that need to be replaced to me.

it's still frustrating as hell that it's not countering the false information and losing the propaganda war.

They understand they have no chances of winning the propaganda war in the west, and to what purpose?

Does winning the propaganda war in the west help Kiev in any way at all... except in the west they get more sympathy and support, but the rest of the world sees a more honest picture. When the truth starts leaking out or reality becomes obvious... remember Russia was running out of ammo and missiles two and a half years ago... is China and Iran and North Korea supplying everything they need?

It doesn't hurt Russia if westerners believe the worst... in fact stirring up anti Russian BS has allowed Russia to get rid of a lot of blood sucking western companies... I am sure they would say they are much better off without the Cocacola company, and quite a few others...

On the other hand, there are some of us (and I admit I am one of those) who screams out loud "Russia, get out there and defend yourself in the media for FS! Answer back the absolutely ridiculous claims so you can expose the brutally false propaganda campaign" that frankly is a whole other war in of itself. I think that's where most of my own personal frustrations come from.

Hahahaha... yes, if Russia tells the truth the western media will report it honestly and in full and the western public can decide fairly and impartially... it is the western media that drives the western propaganda... you don't think they will counter their own hard work to demonise Russia for the last 20 years?

it's still frustrating as hell because I only care about seeing Russia win this whole war including in the media, as unimportant as that might seem.

Think of the propaganda war as speculators gambling on the result of a horse race. The odds they give and the money they spend to bet on this or that horse is based on history and conditions, but it only makes sense if all that information is true and accurate. The race is run and the horse with the most bets on it for the win does not get any advantage over any other horse in the race. The long shot is the long shot because it is expected to lose, but the owner of the strongest horse does not care about the odds because he gets the prize money and wont be betting money on his horse if it is the favourite and he wont win much more than he bets.

posts to be moved shortly. Will post where they are moved to when I decide where they will go.

Winning is not even in the picture if there isn't even an attempt in the first place.

No attempt by definition means not trying... If Russia is not trying then why is RT and Sputnik banned across the western world?

Russia gives press conferences and answers questions asked by a range of western journalists... but that is in the control of the western media and they can pick and choose what to broadcast and they can manipulate it any way they please.

And the purpose is clear as history itself, propaganda is a huge element of war and many will argue a critically important one.Propaganda 101

It is not important when that is all you have. German propaganda and Japanese propaganda was very successful right up until when they lost... the result of WWII was not determined by propaganda. And propaganda victories were empty victories mostly.

The V-1 and V-2 didn't defeat the Germans any more than the thousand bomber air raids by western air forces...

If they had used that money for ships and moved D Day to early 1943 it might have made a real difference.

Propaganda is an important tool in war. It can be used to shape public opinion, maintain morale, and mobilize resources.

You are confusing things... most propaganda is directed and your own population and most of the time it works just fine... that is why Putin won the election with over 80% of the vote where the public had four other candidates to vote for. Normally in the west having five candidates is bad because it dilutes the voting and spreads it around so they can't control who wins. Hillary claimed votes for the independent candidates cost her the election against Trump because she was certain if they could only vote for Trump or her that she would have gotten their votes, but it doesn't work like that. They knew their vote for an independent was a waste and without the option to vote for an independent candidate they probably would not have voted for either republican or democrat.

You can't be serious with that rhetorical question. The entire world is supporting the Ukraine because it's being influenced by its directed propaganda which then evolves into all sorts of support from public, to official to even financial?

That is western propaganda failing again... the entire world is NOT supporting Ukraine, they send no money and no arms and no ammo. Most of the rest of the world outside the west don't give a shit about Ukraine and wonder why the west is so excited about it while at the same time ignoring other wars happening around the world at the same time that they couldn't care less about.

Heck the Soviets learned the to use some of the best propaganda tools from the German Nazis especially in Stalingrad and perfected it and made it work wonders to its advantage.

There are protests in the west about the conflict in Ukraine and giving endless money to Kiev... where are the protests in Russia demanding an end to the conflict and for Putin to step down?

Pretty obvious which propaganda is working best... perhaps if you were the target of Russian propaganda you would notice more.

Russia doesn't care if we don't know the facts, but they carefully make sure their own population and their allies understand exactly what is happening and why.

Sometimes they are helped by unexpected allies like Lindsay Graham who said the Ukraine is worth 12 trillion in resources and that even if the US can't get its hands on all of it they need to deny access to that wealth for Putin and China...

But western propaganda says it is about freedom and democracy and Russian aggression.

But why wait until that happens or even worse, it doesn't happen? That's akin to throwing in the towel.

Russia is killing more Ukrainian soldiers every day than it has for most of this war, while the west has converted their donations and unconditional support to loans and mostly watching on as the Ukrainian army gets destroyed.

The west has stepped up its propaganda BS... 500 Su-34s have been shot down along with 500 Su-35s... well Russia hit the Ukrainian electricity grid again and winter is coming. Right now Ukraine is getting electricity from the west, but when winter comes and they don't have any to spare... not to mention4 months time means 4 x 30 x 1,500 = how many fewer soldiers they will have... that is about 180K men less than what they have now... looking forward to see what spin the western propagandists will put on it.

That's not the Russian way we're used to. If you think our opinion is insignificant, of course it is.

Putin is more popular than he has ever been, the Russian economy is booming and we are crying because Russia has not convinced the western audience that they are the good guys.

I would suggest if Putin wasted resources and energy to try to convince the west that they are the good guys Russia would not be in such a good position.

The only times the west likes Putin is when he makes concessions that please them... like if he accepted Zelenskys peace wish list word for word.

That is not smart that is not winning.

Russia has won the propaganda war where it counts... in Russia and in China and in India and in BRICS and in the rest of the world.

They never had any chance of winning in the west and I rather doubt they had any expectation to do so.

The only places the west wins the propaganda war outside the west is via corruption and bribery. Send me 10 million dollars and look at how anti American I become... Money corrupts.

The west spends money on such things all the time. Look at the Israeli lobby groups spending 100 million dollars on certain US politicians to get them to support Israel no matter what war crimes they commit.

In the grand scheme of things who gives a flying rats ass what I or anyone else thinks, but why ignore such an important & vital element of war that Russia itself practiced in all its previous wars with tremendous success?

Don't you see the contradiction... propaganda is about gaining public support... if public support is meaningless then isn't that effort for propaganda also meaningless?

Do you think if the US had allocated 2 trillion in bribes for the Russian people... everybody gets 10K each or more that Putin would really struggle to justify this conflict and remain in power?

The thing is that they don't waste money giving it to everyone... the bankers get the money, not the people who can no longer pay their home loans...

What happened this time around where it simply completely eliminated that aspect from its tactics? Very bizarre.

Check the US debt with the Russian debt, check the popularity ratings of Biden or Trump and Putin, check the real economy figures compared with the last 30 years for both countries, check the economic boom in Russia as western monopolies are forced to leave and sell up so Russians can fill their place with better products that are not as expensive and filled with fluff.

If you listen to western propaganda only you would not know this because such information is bad for the west... it shows the west is fundamentally broken... it shows that Russia and China and BRICS is a much better way forward than the west who holds you on a leash...

Now tell me that Russian propaganda is not working... they are leading by example... the best propaganda there is.

It used to be that countries could choose between western consumer goods and weapons because the west produced TVs and Cars and other things, while the Soviets made weapons. Now it is not quite reversed but now the west is the war economy side with super expensive weapons and you can't buy from anyone else, while Russia offers a connection to BRICS and free trade with a growing part of the free world.

And I mean Free world because governments of the countries are able to have an independent thought without needing to get US approval first.

Sorry but I don't see how that could be.

The west is a vampire that has been bleeding Russia for the last three decades... it has positioned itself between Russia and the rest of the world acting as a middle man making money in both directions and controlling exports and trade, and keeping tabs on what Russia sells and buys because most of it goes on western shipping company ships with western insurance companies getting the details of the loads and customers.

This conflict is a real war between Russia and the west and it doesn't matter what the people in the west think, what matters is that the Russian people understand the west just tried to destroy the Russian economy and send them back to the 1990s, a time of turmoil and severe corruption and destruction of the Russian economy to feed the economies of the west.

Western propaganda has been failing because most in the west understand they are lied to, but Russian propaganda in Russia doesn't need to be lies... they can just report the truth... with facts and evidence. They can play Lindsay Grahams speech on how the war is about resources in the ground like steel and lithium and Xenon and other materials the US wants access to but also wants to deny Putin access to as well.

The popularity for the war has shifted... to start with the west was going to steam roll over Russia and Ukraine would get all its regions including the Crimea back, they didn't want to talk, they wanted things sorted out on the battlefield, and the west thought they were going to win. In Russia they were worried and a bit unsure...

Skip through to now and it is the west worried about the money pit that is this conflict, not to mention the immigrants from Ukraine they are paying for and they talk about stalemates and hoping some super weapon might shift the balance and allow Kiev to negotiate from a position of strength, but on the Russian side the Russian people now understand the war and that this is about the west trying to isolate and destroy Russia and that this war had to happen and there was never going to be any alternative and that the way Putin has played it is about as good as you could expect without the benefit of being able to see the future.

The west is protesting these lazy Ukrainians who wont fight for their own country despite western countries really creating this conflict in the first place, while the Russians are getting their heads down and their arses up and working to defeat Nazis in Europe again.

Coca Cola is not the only loss and add it to the entire list of withdrawn companies and there's a significant economic loss there that could've been avoided.

These western companies are no loss at all, their businesses have been taken over and they are now running under Russian management, which means the people who worked for them now work for Russia and the Russians get more than just wages and tax paid on wages, they not only get the profits the business generates but the owners can't invest that money in the west any more so it gets invested in the Russian economy... so it is a double boost for the economy.

The western myth that foreign investment boosts an economy is BS... it leeches money out of the economy and buys up local competition that creates a monopoly that eventually leads to prices increasing and quality going down as they cut corners and costs.

Yes it's not the end all be all but when these things start accumulating and you're not doing anything about it, that's borderline irresponsible.

Why do you keep saying Russia is doing nothing. Western companies haven't left the market in droves because Russian law has been adjusted so that if they decide to leave they have to sell their business to a local and they will lose about 70 cents in the dollar on the value of their business... plus there is a 50% tax bill they will have to pay to leave, and there is a very good chance they wont be allowed to come back.

Some companies like a Finnish company that owned some power stations was ramping up electricity costs in some regions... the Russian government seized the company. There was an old Russian guy who owned a port and took 20 million dollars a year in income from that ownership and didn't spend a cent to upgrade or maintain the port. He had granddaughters who lived in New York that he sent money to so they were living the high light while the port suffocated... the port was taken from him in this case too.

The Russians are very active both in propaganda and actual tangible actions working against the west and the results are pretty clear and positive for Russia and Russians... but not so good for the west.

Sorry to those reading this and it's pissing them off but tough shit. It's the truth.

It is your opinion and so I will be moving it to another thread... either a talking bollocks thread or perhaps a thread on propaganda.

It's mandatory to make a huge effort to win the propaganda side of the war or at least make it effective enough, that's all.

But only a fucking idiot would think your propaganda could sway the enemy public into thinking you are right.

Propaganda requires control, you need to limit the target groups access to their propaganda and submerge them in your propaganda... so for the west you ban RT and Sputnik and remove voices from X and Twitter and Youtube and Farcebook and other social media sources, or you force the owners to allow your propaganda like Telegram, or you make the owner sell to an American and then bully that American to stop with foreign propaganda and only allow your propaganda.

The west tries to deny the west access to Russian propaganda, and the Russians allow the Russian people to see western propaganda for what it is... Russia hating venom.

BTW, it's not just the positive or self-aggrandizing type of propaganda that needs to be employed, but the countering hateful & disparaging and anti-everything enemy that's also a huge component of the war. Beat the shit out your enemy in every way possible.

Russian propaganda is the best because it just shows the truth.

Sure they'll counter it. But in the end what do you suppose would garner a better result, putting up a fight or cowering and not doing anything?

Russia is killing more than 1,500 enemy combatants per day but you are upset because they are not trying hard enough to win on CNN or the BBC?

So you're basically saying Russia knows it's going to win this war and so why even spend the time & resources on something like propaganda since there isn't any benefit to it, right?

Putin just got reelected and the economy is booming. Russian military tactics seem to be eviscerating the enemy forces, but you want hollywood blockbusters to be produced about how Russia is the good guys and Ukraine are nazis.

That's what you're basically saying by using the horse-betting analogy.

No. I am saying the odds and the betting don't effect the race results... it is the other way around... so after Chechnia part one and part two and the conflicts in Kosovo and Libya where Russia was not able to help a lot they think the Russian armed forces are useless and also that western armed forces are all powerful because of the money spent on them and all the experience they have.

Ex Special forces volunteers leaving the conflict in Ukraine seem to suggest otherwise.

I hope it doesn't come back and bit Russia in the ass.

Spending money and resources to try to convince the western audience that Russia is not the bad guy would be futile and wasteful.

The Russian population are behind this conflict and understand it was necessary.

Who gives a **** what western populations think?

The rest of the world see both sides and the vast majority have remained neutral because it is not their fight... yet.

China is on Russias side because it knows it is next and this was a situation the west created and will create again in Asia when they get the chance... whether it is India China or China and Taiwan... the west doesn't care.

And BTW, even the Ukrainians suck ass at their own propaganda and are basically letting the west do it for them.

Ukrainian propaganda started in 1991, and was a reason that since 2014 to 2021 that these autonomous regions in Ukraine remained Ukrainian... they just wanted to speak Russian as they have been doing. After the conflict started and the Istanbul agreements seemed to offer their regions to Kiev as autonomous regions they had referendums and voted to join the Russian Federation.... they had to be shelled for 8 years and go through 6-8 months of open conflict before they decided they were Russians and the Ukrainian myth can go **** itself...

Ukrainian propaganda worked but their problem is that there is only so many lies you can believe when it is pretty clear you are losing.

Nothing is more evident of that than what we're seeing everyday with the way they're recruiting men to fight. We've all seen the endless clips of their criminal bully recruiters beating & violently kidnapping men to fight and protect their own country! And they can't even do that simple part properly with the billions & billions of $ being pumped up Zelensky's ass it's ridiculous.

The money never goes to the people at the bottom... it goes to the people at the top to hire people with guns and bullets and fists and clubs to make the people at the bottom do what the people at the top want them to.

lancelot wrote:
As other people have explained, in the Power of Siberia gas pipeline, Russia recovers helium, propane, ethane, etc from the piped gas.

Which was not a case for a gas supplied to the west for decades.
It made the mainstay of German and Austrian petrochemical power, with the rise of IG Farben ... o pardon, BASF.
It is enough to take a short look at official BASF site and how they describe their own history.
We can easily notice three milestones.
The first one is not so proud, but still Cyklon B gas was a good product
The second is somehow coincidentally related on a timeline with the pumping of the Soviet oil to the west - and the magic of the plastics has started ...
The third is somehow coincidentally related on a timeline with the pumping of the Soviet gas to the west - and the magic of polymers has started ...
Soviets lacked technology to make money out of that - as simply as that.
It is not a case of Russia anymore.

It is also the Americans missing the point... gas is relatively cheap and convenient... it wont freeze and burst pipes no matter how cold it gets, and once the infrastructure is in place and is maintained properly there shouldn't be much that can go wrong, you don't need a fleet of trucks to deliver gas cannisters and tanks etc etc.

Because Russia has gas in enormous volumes it makes sense for them to sell it relatively cheap to make it popular and in widespread use so they make their profit on volume rather than profit margin.

This creates stability because your customers don't waste time chasing the lowest price... they forgot how greedy white europeans can be and how they expect discounts on discounts and to be treated like a king for taking your product from you as a personal favour to you.

Selling gas relatively cheaply to China will allow much of China to shift to gas as an energy source, which boosts Chinas economy and is good for stability and long term planning for Russian companies too.

Cheap stable energy supplies allowed Europe to grow and develop and be competitive on the world markets... expensive unreliable energy will have the opposite effect, but likely the Chinese will benefit from good relations with Russia with energy and food... and now North Korea is also going to benefit from good relations with Russia with cheap energy and reliable food and medical supplies.

Everyone wins... except the greedy west.

Uran-9 is a good step in the right direction.

But it can be better

Would also add that pipelines to China don't go through other countries so there are no transfer fees for the gas supplied, plus China does not have Russia under sanctions and is not trying to destroy their economy or murder their citizens like the Europeans are.

The Russians make good money on the gas fees and having it slightly cheaper makes it more attractive for new companies in China setting up to choose gas as an energy source. Making it cheap and making the supply reliable (ie pipe rather than ship or truck) means they are more likely to spend on the infrastructure to get gas to where they need it.

Think of the low price as a way of encouraging widespread use... the way they did in Europe, but they ended up being greedy and demanded stupid things like spot price auctions and no long contracts so they could buy up lots when it was cheap and fill their storage and then when it was expensive they stop buying and use their reserves till the price dropped.

Of course what they didn't allow for was the fact that without contracts Russia was under no obligation to sell... if they price dropped too low then don't offer any for sale and when the price goes up again then sell.

The Europeans are greedy and stupid... America will save us with freedom gas... without looking at their production and consumption figures that show much of the time they don't generate enough gas to supply their own needs... how will they supply Europe?

PapaDragon wrote:Although it would be hilarious if it turns out to be India

No. Those cheap, shabby, street-shitting cow lovers had their chance with the FGFA, and they fcked it up by being stupid insulting big-mouthed muppets. They get to sit back and watch as China roars away and leaves them struggling in the rear view mirror.