Russian special military operation in Ukraine #16

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Seen some reports of the Ukie's shelling into Russia around the Khakrov region now they pretty much pushed the Russians out

SeigSoloyvov wrote:"In regards to being forced to fight I was talking about Azovites, they are volunteers and the worst of the worst anyone showing them sympathy can f themselves.
In regards to The WEHRMACHT i didnt call them all Nazis, i challenge you to quote me, i know some are forced, even from Donbass and pro Russian areas, calling them that due to a clear parralel with German Wehrmacht…. and you yourselves answered it while attempting to downplay and excuse the crimes of Nazi Germany and the Nazism and its very clear tolerance currently plaguing Ukraine"


Naw I ain't downplaying the Nazi's made my position clear they need to be shot.

My comment was about your generalization and comparing Ukraine's forces to the Wehrmacht, "Wehrmacht tank, plane" etc

I am just calling out what you are pulling and both know why your doing it, so don't play innocent. You didn't outright say it but you are trying to equate it with your words.

Your smart enough not to directly say it but simply make suggestive remarks like you do.

Serberus wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Seen some reports of the Ukie's shelling into Russia around the Khakrov region now they pretty much pushed the Russians out

Reports of Severodonets under attack, Liman surrounded.
Troitskoye and Novoselovka liberated,  Novogrodskoye reached, and your friends from Azovstal surrendering, must be burning you inside so I understand trying to deflect to Kharkov constantly.

flamming_python wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Seen some reports of the Ukie's shelling into Russia around the Khakrov region now they pretty much pushed the Russians out

Is that the best they can do?
Shell more civilians in Russian border villages?
Launch more Tochkas against populated cities?

Criminals. They don't need to do that from Kharkov. They can do that from the Chernigov and Sumy regions as well and were earlier. Which tells you all you need to know about this stunt

About them pushing someone out, I doubt it. It's more likely shelling from the part of Kharkov obl. that they've controlled for 2 months now.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Serberus wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Seen some reports of the Ukie's shelling into Russia around the Khakrov region now they pretty much pushed the Russians out

Reports of Severodonets under attack, Liman surrounded.
Troitskoye and Novoselovka liberated,  Novogrodskoye reached, and your friends from Azovstal surrendering, must be burning you inside so I understand trying to deflect to Kharkov constantly.

My friends? oh buddy don't be mad you got called out for your BS and try to label me a nazi xD

You see, I stated already. All of Avoz needs to die, a long long time ago.

Serberus wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Serberus wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Seen some reports of the Ukie's shelling into Russia around the Khakrov region now they pretty much pushed the Russians out

Reports of Severodonets under attack, Liman surrounded.
Troitskoye and Novoselovka liberated,  Novogrodskoye reached, and your friends from Azovstal surrendering, must be burning you inside so I understand trying to deflect to Kharkov constantly.

My friends? oh buddy don't be mad you got called out for your BS and try to label me a nazi xD

You see, I stated already. All of Avoz needs to die, a long long time ago.

Yeah and I stated not all Ukranians are Nazis a long time ago so you called out nothing,
All you do  constantly is attempt to deflect from the collapse of the Wehrmacht in Donbass.
Enjoy the show…

Serberus wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

limb wrote:
So you're calling for genocide?
Russia can't waste money for years, and it can't allow the Ukrainians to calmy bombard and terrorize the Belgorod oblast.

Also how do you know that more Ukrainians are getting killed compared to in the first few weeks of the war?

No, he's just too into his WH40K

So now its “genocide” to kill the Wehrmacht soldiers and Azov SS troops were “poor guys who were forced to fight”
Get off your own dick mate

lancelot wrote:
The reason the Russians are taking a long time to take those lines is that they are trying to minimize their own casualties. Basically. And the trenches were never the issue, the issue is that is a major built up area. Try looking at a map, it is a bunch of 100k population sized cities nearly contiguous to each other.

flamming_python wrote:

sepheronx wrote:the last time a MiG from Ukraine was flying even near Donetsk, it was shot down moments not long after the showboating done with pics of it.

Not quickly enough for the likes of limb to claim that Russia's air defenses are non-functional, Russian fighters are braindead and the Russian air campaign has been a complete joke

Yeah, 404 aircraft fly in from Romania, and are replenished by Su-27s, MiG-29s from whatever old Asian or African stocks. Deal with it.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Serberus wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Serberus wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Seen some reports of the Ukie's shelling into Russia around the Khakrov region now they pretty much pushed the Russians out

Reports of Severodonets under attack, Liman surrounded.
Troitskoye and Novoselovka liberated,  Novogrodskoye reached, and your friends from Azovstal surrendering, must be burning you inside so I understand trying to deflect to Kharkov constantly.

My friends? oh buddy don't be mad you got called out for your BS and try to label me a nazi xD

You see, I stated already. All of Avoz needs to die, a long long time ago.

Yeah and I stated not all Ukranians are Nazis a long time ago so you called out nothing,
All you do  constantly is attempt to deflect from the collapse of the Wehrmacht in Donbass.
Enjoy the show…

Cuuuuuute redirect all you wish.

I have called out dumb russian mistakes, that they shouldn't be making but I have also stated they will win the war, well unless the higher ups **** up that is.

Ukrainian failures? a failure implies they had a chance, in this case there is none they can either die quick or go death by 1000 cuts and they choose 1000 cuts.

I really cannot fault an enemy for failure if they did their best despite being put in a situation they had no hope of winning.

Your rather narrow sighted aren't you.

limb wrote:Remind yourself of the Vietnam war. Every day, the US would brag about number of killed viet's, but in the end it was all for nothing because the US forces never cut weapons supplies. Vietnam lost 10% of it's population, but there was never a desire to surrender despite constant Viet losses. The same is happening in Ukraine.

flamming_python wrote:- Ukrainian nationalism is here to stay, and the Ukraine will always be defined by it at least throughout the 21st century. It did not arrive by accident, and the loyalty of Ukrainians will be to their own elites, no matter how oligarchial, sell-out of otherwise they are. It should be noted however that the Ukrainian elites do promise their lower classes something Russia does not - and that is the freedom to work and live in the EU, earn a European-level wage and then buy whatever home or invest in whatever business in the Ukraine. Russia could have competed with this in time, to win back over the Ukrainian elites, or enough of the population to bring pressure on the elites. However, the West did not need a Ukraine that can pick and choose for its own prosperity, but one that's an armed bulwark against Russia, and thus pushed it towards conflict instead before its usefulness ended.
- Nazism is a thing in the Ukraine but at present time it's incorrect to call the Ukraine any more Nazi than Cuba or Vietnam were communist (at least at first). It's mainly a banner for them, decided upon by the elite who has decided that the US/EU proposal of becoming an anti-Russia is profitable. And during the conflict with Russia it becomes an ideology of national-liberation for the elite and the wider population. Hence it is problematic to liberate the Ukraine from Nazism as such, the population does not itself ask Russia for this. The population wants Russia gone. It is however a major problem one way or the other, as if the Ukrainian state continues under this ideology, it will solidify - just as Cuba and Vietnam became revolutionary socialist countries growing from out of their anti-colonial movements against the Americans & French respectively

Liberation is applicable mainly to the ethnic Russian areas in the Ukraine, for whom living in a Ukrainian state that's defined by Ukrainian ethno-nationalism is pretty undesirable. Such territory includes most of the Donbass region; with the exception of the northern part of Lugansk obl. which was not part of the LNR initially and which belongs to a historically different region than the Donbass does. It includes part of the Kharkov region, if not Kharkov itself. Includes Melitopol, Berdyansk. Probably not Kherson and Zaporozhie themselves though, and doubtfully Odessa by now either.

So we're left with a certain territory that has a desire to be absorbed into Russia and that are loyal to Russia. This is basically a slightly expanded Donbass (minus it's northern-most strip) + a slim land bridge to the Crimea.
As for the rest, absorbing it into Russia against its will, can prove problematic and should best be avoided. But it is necessary to demilitarize and denazify this territory, so as to prevent any continuation of the war. When this is done, some sort of political agreement can be reached, in return for a withdrawal of Russian forces, and the integration of Russia with Pridnestrovie over Ukraine's territory. This Ukraine can then do what it wants and join whatever economic union it wants, as long as it keeps to the strictest military neutrality, and does not rearm.

What's more likely to happen though is that Russia will in addition to the Donbass, directly annex in their entirety the Kherson, Zaporozhie, Nikolayev, Odessa, and Kharkov regions at a minimum. Which will bring problems as there are a considerable amount of anti-Russians there, including the relatives of many soldiers who've died in this war.
But it's still basically manageable for Russia over time.

flamming_python wrote:...
What's more likely to happen though is that Russia will in addition to the Donbass, directly annex in their entirety the Kherson, Zaporozhie, Nikolayev, Odessa, and Kharkov regions at a minimum. Which will bring problems as there are a considerable amount of anti-Russians there, including the relatives of many soldiers who've died in this war.
But it's still basically manageable for Russia over time.

flamming_python wrote:Possibly something like that
In which case the Donbass will be part of this Novorussia state as well, forming its loyalist core

flamming_python wrote:

ALAMO wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Naw I ain't downplaying the Nazi's made my position clear they need to be shot.
My comment was about your generalization and comparing Ukraine's forces to the Wehrmacht, "Wehrmacht tank, plane" etc
I am just calling out what you are pulling and both know why your doing it, so don't play innocent.

If we take for granted that you are perfectly right (and that is my opinion either), then it makes them a perfect match for Wehrmacht.
They were just conscripted soldiers fighting for their country.
And sure that there was a nazi element among them, but not everybody was a nazi.
Even the nazis were back for duty, in West Germany, as soon as the late 40s.
Russia won't be able to "denazify" Ukraine, just the same way the Soviet Union failed even with enormous efforts.
Nazi ideology was active in the Ukrainian SSSR masqueraded as "nationalist", and the Soviet Union even cheered.
The most radical elements hold their heads up as only SU ceased to exist, and the first marches with torches were performed in 1992 already.
They can reduce the number of nazis, pushing them to emigrate to other EU countries, which will just repeat the case of the US and Canada-based Ukrainian nazi diaspora, ending with generations of nationalized nazis among the population of nominally normal countries.
Erasing the nazi ideology would require another nation-building material, which they lack at the moment because throwing away any participation of Poland and Russia in the process.

My vision for an ultimate political solution to the conflict, if we are to be realistic, is as follows

- Ukrainian nationalism is here to stay, and the Ukraine will always be defined by it at least throughout the 21st century. It did not arrive by accident, and the loyalty of Ukrainians will be to their own elites, no matter how oligarchial, sell-out of otherwise they are. It should be noted however that the Ukrainian elites do promise their lower classes something Russia does not - and that is the freedom to work and live in the EU, earn a European-level wage and then buy whatever home or invest in whatever business in the Ukraine. Russia could have competed with this in time, to win back over the Ukrainian elites, or enough of the population to bring pressure on the elites. However, the West did not need a Ukraine that can pick and choose for its own prosperity, but one that's an armed bulwark against Russia, and thus pushed it towards conflict instead before its usefulness ended.
- Nazism is a thing in the Ukraine but at present time it's incorrect to call the Ukraine any more Nazi than Cuba or Vietnam were communist (at least at first). It's mainly a banner for them, decided upon by the elite who has decided that the US/EU proposal of becoming an anti-Russia is profitable. And during the conflict with Russia it becomes an ideology of national-liberation for the elite and the wider population. Hence it is problematic to liberate the Ukraine from Nazism as such, the population does not itself ask Russia for this. The population wants Russia gone. It is however a major problem one way or the other, as if the Ukrainian state continues under this ideology, it will solidify - just as Cuba and Vietnam became revolutionary socialist countries growing from out of their anti-colonial movements against the Americans & French respectively

Liberation is applicable mainly to the ethnic Russian areas in the Ukraine, for whom living in a Ukrainian state that's defined by Ukrainian ethno-nationalism is pretty undesirable. Such territory includes most of the Donbass region; with the exception of the northern part of Lugansk obl. which was not part of the LNR initially and which belongs to a historically different region than the Donbass does. It includes part of the Kharkov region, if not Kharkov itself. Includes Melitopol, Berdyansk. Probably not Kherson and Zaporozhie themselves though, and doubtfully Odessa by now either.

So we're left with a certain territory that has a desire to be absorbed into Russia and that are loyal to Russia. This is basically a Donbass expanded west well into the Kharkov region (minus the Lugansk region's northern area) + a slim land bridge to the Crimea.
As for the rest, absorbing it into Russia against its will, can prove problematic and should best be avoided. But it is necessary to demilitarize and denazify this territory, so as to prevent any continuation of the war. When this is done, some sort of political agreement can be reached, in return for a withdrawal of Russian forces, and the integration of Russia with Pridnestrovie over Ukraine's territory. This Ukraine can then do what it wants and join whatever economic union it wants, as long as it keeps to the strictest military neutrality, and does not rearm.

What's more likely to happen though is that Russia will in addition to the Donbass, directly annex in their entirety the Kherson, Zaporozhie, Nikolayev, Odessa, and Kharkov regions at a minimum. Which will bring problems as there are a considerable amount of anti-Russians there, including the relatives of many soldiers who've died in this war.
But it's still basically manageable for Russia over time.