Podlodka77 wrote: flamming_python wrote: Podlodka77 wrote:The Bolsheviks are still killing the Russians, indirectly.. Russian Empire created this, the red vermin sold it and destroyed it. I can't list all the evils that the USSR inflicted on Russia, there is no end. The Russian Empire created this, the reds divided and created a fictional nation with no identity - USSR.
Damned red worms..
Given that Putin is a believer, as well as the close circle around him, I somehow glimpse what will be taken from the current Ukroshitstan.
Someone mentioned Petlyura's Ukrainian National Republic. In fact that state did not start with him, and it was already being prepared prior to the Bolshevik Revolution in October. The plans already in motion by the summer of 1917, that's to say after the February Revolution and abdication of the Tsar.
When the Germans pressed terms at Brest-Litovsk; they forced the Bolsheviks to concede to a German puppet-state in the Ukraine. This was really the Ukraine's birth.
So calm down Francis, the Ukraine did not start nor did it end with the 'red vermin'.
In fact it was the reds who regathered almost all Russian Imperial lands. In the Ukraine, they found enough allies among Ukrainian communists and working class, to proclaim the Ukrainian SSR - and overran the UNR in fairly short order. Had they not made any allies there, this part of the Civil War would have gone on a lot longer, maybe comparable to what it is now.
And let me say it again - there was nothing wrong with the Bolshevik project, the Ukrainian SSR. It was a very successful and developed republic in all measures, and completely loyal to its neighbour Russia as it was all the same country.
The trouble is what came after it and the USSR. The Ukraine has basically reverted to what it was however briefly as the UNR; a nationalist Western-puppet state controlled by its oligarchs/landowners.
Hey RED, the Russia you live in was created by the Russian people and the Russian emperors.
Putin on Ukraine: Donbass was given to them by Lenin, Novorussia has nothing to do with them He said that Ukraine joined the Russian Empire from three territories, while the western parts were "added" to that Soviet republic after the victory in the Second World War. Putin also claims that everything that Ukraine received during the formation of the Soviet Union was donated to that republic by Vladimir Lenin.
He said that Ukraine joined the Russian Empire from three territories, while the western parts were "added" to that Soviet republic after the victory in the Second World War. Putin also claims that everything that Ukraine received during the formation of the Soviet Union was donated to that republic by Vladimir Lenin.
- They say we are returning our territories. Well historically, yes, of course. That is the whole Black Sea region, so to speak. We don't really claim all those territories, but still, facts are facts. Where did Novorussia come from? It is the result of several wars with the Turkish Empire. What is Ukraine, what does Ukraine have to do with it? That has nothing to do with each other - Putin said.
He claims that the western parts of Ukraine were "inherited" after the Second World War.
- Stalin took the territory from Hungary, Romania and Poland and gave it to Ukraine, rewarding that same Poland with the eastern regions of Germany - he said, adding:
- It is known how left-bank Ukraine came into being. It became part of the Russian Empire with three territories: Kiev region, Zhytomyr and Chernigov. That's all, in 1545, or something. Everything that was later added to Ukraine is the result of the formation of the Soviet Union in 1922, donated by Vladimir Ilyich Lenin.
Putin also claims that Donbass should have belonged to the RSFSR first, but that Lenin demanded that "the decision be made again" and that the territory be handed over to Ukraine, in order to raise the percentage of the proletarian population in that Soviet republic.
THIS IS WHAT YOUR PRESIDENT SAYS, I DIDN'T INVENT IT.. DON'T SHIFT THE BLAME ON THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE AND ON OVER 1000 YEARS OF RUSSIA, THE ONE THAT EXISTED BEFORE THE RED STINK AND Scum.
Don't make excuses for the Bolsheviks because I hate them almost as much as the Nazis.
I would shit on Lenin's mausoleum, do you understand ?
Settle down there Frank, we're all friends here. Last thing we want is for you to have another breakdown and to storm out of the forum, so let's learn to all respect each other's opinions and political inclinations by disagreeing in a civilized manner, elaborating if there is the desire to do so.
There is after all no such thing as a communist, or a fascist, or a liberal or anything unless you are an actual politician, kill people over it, or otherwise put it to practice somehow. Otherwise all it is a difference in how you interpret the mechanisms by which the world and its population works. And all these labels are a little restrictive anyhow, in terms of world view and proposed solutions.
Putin says a lot of ahistorical stuff I'm afraid.
The Donbass has some connection with the Ukraine as it was colonized mostly by Ukrainian Cossacks initially who were Moscowy's allies against the steppe Tatars at the time. Later it received a lot of immigration from Central Ukraine. But where the borders between Russia and the Ukraine should be there was in dispute and the borders in fact were changed no less than 4-5 times between 1919-1925 as a result of both historical debates and practical considerations.
Novorussia was a somewhat similar story. It was indeed conquered from the Crimean Tatars, Turks and nomadic peoples by Tsarist Russia, but in alliance and treaty with the Zaporozhian Cossacks, who again started its initial colonization, and by Tsarist Russia's end Ukrainians comprised either a majority or plurality of all Novorussia's districts (with the exception of the Odessa district).
About the Ukraine's western territories. Well look. At the time, the Ukrainians were loyal Soviet citizens and had just smashed Nazism along with the rest of the USSR. Not the Banderites in Western Ukraine of course, but the capital was in Kiev, the industries were in East and Southern Ukraine; all places with plenty of Russians, Jews and others as well - and this Ukraine did all oppose Nazi Germany for the most part.
The Hungarians, Romanians meanwhile.. well they weren't. They were Nazi Germany's previous allies. Poland meanwhile was a little unreliable, and they and Western Ukrainians were killing each other so from Stalin's point of view, joining these Western territories to the Ukraine, the capital of which was Russian-speaking and pro-Soviet, made good sense at the time.
And yes we can agree that the Ukraine is a fake state and that there is little point in having some sort of national state on the basis of Ukrainianess in general when it's barely a distinguished identity from the Russian one in all objective criteria and that all you're going to do with such a country anyway is become an Anglo-colony of more corruption and poverty than even Batista's Cuba.
But to say that the Ukraine is an invention of the Bolsheviks, or that the Bolsheviks invented Ukrainian identity is demonstratably false. It's a particular brand of right-wing Russian nonsense that I see repeated a lot but anyone who has read up about the subject knows about the Ukrainian National Republic, about the Kaiser's efforts to support it, about Petlyura and Pilsudski's support to him just a short time later, about the Polish uprisings starting in 1861 and how they birthed the Ukrainian national movement in Kiev.
And what do any of these things have to do with the Bolsheviks? That's right, nothing. The Bolsheviks inherited a situation where everyone was trying to use Ukrainian nationalism for their own ends against Russia, and they actually did the smart thing and co-opted it. They weren't concerned by Kievan Rus' or the greatness of any one nation/country, but even for class warfare they had to reunite greater Russia and they did that very successfully. No-one donated anything. Even Kharkov was under the control of the Brest-Litovsk German puppet state until the Bolsheviks incited an uprising there. The end.
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